Looking through all the stuff and playing the crap out of rdm because I enjoy the job, but rdm is dead in endgame. Very few groups will see value in a rdm and when they do they literally call rdm a battery.
SE has not made a useful fix on rdm in years. You gave rdm access to more ws, that did nothing to bring rdm back, you gave rdm distract/frazzle 3, that was alright for a while until you made all the nm's dark based or ridiculously high m. eva forcing rdm out from consistent enfeeble resist. You gave rdm Temper and Temper II, but we can't target party members and we are stuck in taeon gear or we have to augment mage/reisenjima gear with melee stats. Nothing like swimming upstream.
Haste 2 is not enough to give rdm invites.
You gave blm and sch a ws that returns more than 1.5k mp and spells give them tp to accomplish this. So giving rdm refresh 3 was a waste.
Sch can make and spam skill chains for blm to magic burst at capped dmg.
Sch can magic burst helix for 10k and deal serious damage over time.
Geo spells can not be resisted by anything.
Rdm is supposed to be the master of enfeebles, but geo beats it since it has better enfeebles, m. def down? seriously? Why doesn't your enfeeble master job have that?
Rdm has the highest enhance magic skill, but barspells are stronger on whm, stoneskin is still capped at 300 without gear to increase it, phalanx is still capped and does literally nothing for high damage nm's now. Seriously -35 without gear maybe -50 with gear vs a 2k AoE.... Still no reflect and it is in the .dat files.
When is rdm going to be overhauled, it is getting to the point where rdm needs it.
Few ideas, and no, I don't think I have all the answers I am just throwing out ideas so that maybe the dev team can kick it into gear and finally realize rdm needs work.
Protect/Shell VI (same potency of pro/shell V but with chance to mitigate dmg or give eva+, m. eva+ like the bonus from geo attunement)
Need a raise in innate magic accuracy, if geo can't be resisted we shouldn't have to pop all ja's and spam immunobreak, maybe drop the resist on rdm and give us scaling potency like you did with geo. Don't need the same potency of geo just raise rdm land rate, even those an idris geo is utterly broken for potency.
Need higher tiers of enfeebles, dia/bio 3 are still capped at lvl 75 potency, dia/bio 4 and poison 3 are all in the system already, why have you not given rdm these spells years ago. (make them on par with helix 1 DoT and give them the slightly higher defense/attack down potency of dia/bio 3, cause dia 3 and 3 dmg per tick isn't enough to get an invite, bio 3 at 17 damage per tick isn't enough to get an invite. at least make it 300 and 1.7k damage/tick that wouldn't break the bank with mob hp now) Poison 3 should at least be on par with something mildly decent or at least 500 damage/tick. Seriously I would have jumped for joy on this over temper 2. (I absolutely hated that I couldn't target temper 2)
Inundation was utterly useless for getting party invites.
OVERHAUL ENSPELL 2, HOLY CRAP IT SUCKS.
Temper 1/2 fine and dandy.... make it target-able on party, lower the potency and make it target-able. Do you have any clue how many invites we can get off this alone? Hell you could make it work like phalanx 1 and 2, 1 isn't target-able, 2 is, remove the triple attack on 2 and make it double attack. I would love pt invites over triple attack. (others might not, idk)
I know it takes time to design new spells so I am trying not to throw out a bunch of ideas on new spells, but amnesia, plague and confuse would be a huge gain for rdm.
I don't need cure 5, I don't need tier 6 nukes, I don't need to spam 20k weapon skills, I don't even need to self skill chain. I just think it is about time you make rdm good at what it is supposed to be good at. The nails in the coffin from all the buffs you give other jobs are killing rdm.
STOP GIVING GEO AND RUN VERSIONS OF RDM SPELLS
Let rdm target more buffs. Not that you haven't given rdm anything that a whm can't already pt cast. Maybe give rdm a target-able version of foil? Weaker than run version, idc something.
Bar-stun, bar-doom, bar-light/bar-dark would be nice....
Maybe give rdm access to AoE enfeebles, again rdm is master of enfeebles, why can't rdm enfeeble AoE but blm can. Sleepga/breakga
How about a spell to give other jobs fastcast? Cor has a roll, why can't rdm, the fast cast job, give out fastcast?
Regen 3 already, seriously.... Whm, Run, Sch, Brd, Cor, Geo all get better tiers of Regen, (brd can cast more than one)
A spell to increase attack/m.attk? Again, why not cor, geo, and brd all have something (brd lacks m. attk) This would balance out the geo only shouts to geo or rdm. Or at the very least those annoying geo x2 shouts to the geo and rdm shouts.
You don't even have to implement all these things, just a few of them. Rdm isn't a DD, we know that, but you have to start playing rdm to its strengths and that is enhance/enfeeble. The duration gear is nice, but it is not a fix. Do something, seriously.
Oh and tranq heart sucks, cure tanking was a blast
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07-08-2016, 03:50 PMThorvaWill SE ever shine light on RDM again, will SE even answer us?
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07-08-2016, 05:06 PMRaydeus
Not going to happen, and if it ever did people would just bitch and moan until RDM got nerfed into oblivion again as it has happened over and over again. Not to mention they have already said they can't add new spells anymore while completely refusing to adjust current ones.
Just forget about it, it's better for your blood pressure. -
07-08-2016, 07:19 PMSelindrile
Rdm isn't completely irrelevant, in conjunction with Geo, it has a higher Macc and some useful buffs and debuffs that only Rdm gets, Frazzle 3/Distract 3, JA to force land enfeebles, and on a few gimmicky fights debuffs such as silence or blind are relevant.
That said, I'll agree with you that Rdm is pretty far back in the support lineup. Bard is debatably further back though, which is a odd, considering Brd and Rdm were on top of the world for a long time. I'd also argue Bard needs a buff more than Rdm, or possibly buffing melee in general might make them both make a comeback due to synergy.
Allowing Temper/Temper2 to be ally-cast would go a long way to improving their synergy with a melee party, and yes, some sort of magic evasion buff that stacks would also be nice, though, people don't use Addle 2 nearly often enough, it has a macc penalty which is for the most part, the same thing.
A lot of the current meta has arose from melee groups not being viable due to ridiculous enemy TP moves, along with skillchains+magic burst being strong, fixing the insane danger to melees might change the landscape a lot. -
07-08-2016, 11:19 PMRydal
I don't understand why RDM only buffs (Refresh II/III, Temper I/II, Haste II, etc) can't be used with Accession when subbing SCH. ONLY RDM can use it. Give us SOMETHING.
Since we can't add new spells, JAs, skills, why not work on traits? -
07-09-2016, 04:15 AMThorvaI agree, brd is on the shelf in most cases, I only didn't mention brd because it was a rdm forum, but yeah, brd, drg, mnk, and rdm are going to mog storage to be forgotten. (with the exception of this months ambuscade) drk is only recently getting noticed, but sadly you need AG weapon on 2hd DD to compete due to acc problems...Quote:
Originally Posted by Selindrile
I just was working on my rdm, got to 99 last week up to 550+ jp now, and was just thinking how bad off it is. I do agree, when used with a geo it is far better than most people think it is. I think there are a few things that SE could do for rdm that would get rdm back into the line up. Let us cast temper 1/2 on pt, not even ally, just party like refresh, and that would give rdm a huge gain in most melee pick up groups. Give rdm foil to cast on party and dia/bio 4 with poison 3 since they are already in the game. No need to make new animations for the spells just turn them over to rdm with lvl 99 stats instead of our lvl 75 cap spells.
Addle and some form of m. eva would give rdm the vex/attunement level of buffs, coupled with a geo you might actually be able to tolerate being in that stupid high magic AoE at the very least, still need to figure something out for the physical/tp moves though.
Like Rydal said as well, since we can't have new stuff, fine fix the stuff we have, just being able to target our temper 1/2 and accession haste 2, refresh 2/3 would help. Also I really think rdm should have more AoE enfeebles.
Again poisonga 2/3, dia goes all the way up to 5 in the .dat files with diaga V and the same with bio V. I am asking for dia/bio 4, with -ga 3, poison 3 with -ga 2 and better than 3, 4, or 17 dmg tick.
There is still huge resist rate problems with rdm, even with top level gear a rdm can still be resisted by nm's on literally all enfeebles with the exception of bio and dia. But those spells aren't enough to get a rdm in, I realize removing rdm resist rate and giving it scaling potency would essentially make rdm too strong, hence is why I came up with lower potency levels, but higher than the crap we have.
Rdm DoT spells are so sad they aren't even considered substandard. A capped out rdm can hit a max of bio 3 and poison 2 maxes out in the 230-250 range WITH sabo, how will that effect an nm with 250k+ hp. Sch are MB helix for 10k and I am pretty sure they found they are getting the same 10k as DoT. Give us 300 on dia 4, 400 poison 3, 1.7k on bio 4. That wouldn't be enough to make anything ground breaking.
Again, reflect (like) spell is in the .dat animation already, throw some code on there for magic evasion and let use cast on party, don't even need ally, just party. (not like you have given us any ally based content since everything scales so ridiculously high it isn't worth taking an ally)
These spells aren't new, they are already in the game, no need for the dev team to draw up animations. They are already in the game. The only thing it needs is a copy paste coding and name/potency change. Seriously not that hard, I do it all the time for work, granted I don't make video games, but I write in css, html, occasionally java, .xml, .lua and so on. The concept is the same.
SE originally designed rdm and it almost always had a role in groups. Once abyssea came out rdm started to die, had a spot in voidwatch for a while until SE removed the need for dia/bio 3 for nm weakness. Since then the only other time rdm was used was in low man delve as a stun. That was after people chose 2 sch over the same thing 1 rdm could do. Gotta love logic.
Since abyssea rdm has only had hot spot groups, and it is only the extreme geared maxed out notorious rdm that get the invites. Everything else is a hand-me-down rdm and groups would rather ask for a geo.
SE could stop wasting time with all the stupid mounts and aesthetic crap and look into making all jobs useful again.
Think I will make that my signature. -
07-09-2016, 02:35 PMSelindrile
Fair enough, like I said, Rdm is probably the second lowest support on the totem pole at the moment, and I can definitely get behind increasing it's buff/debuff potential, would love for all it's spells to be accesionable, and some of those buffs you mentioned sound pretty good, that said, again, making melees viable may make rdm more viable in turn.
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07-11-2016, 08:26 AMRooj
When I came back to the game a couple months ago after being away for years, I would have agreed with most of this. I did play a bit during the Abyssea/Voidwatch era so I know how bad it's been for RDM at times. After getting geared, getting Master, and experiencing a majority of the content, I don't agree with it anymore.
It seems that all of those people that complained they wanted RDM to be a melee DD on par with all the rest got what they wanted. RDM now has the most multiattack in the game, not to mention Enspell 1s hit for 100+ (I really really hope people aren't using Enspell 2s... they have their purpose but their use is uncommon). You could do 600 Enspell damage in one swing (haven't figured out if Enspells work on Occ. attacks, or it would be 700 with Degen).
I don't think that our enfeebles should have anywhere near 100% accuracy on meta-content. Having a mob's AOE destroy-everything WS/spell paralyzed is a pretty big deal. I'm still experimenting with Slow II and Blind II. I feel like Addle II is basically unresistable and it's pretty amazing as well.
I believe that there are 2 things that make people think RDM is weak. Gear, and knowledge. RDM is multiple jobs in one (AKA hybrid). That means you have to get more gear than any other class to be on par with any other class. As for knowledge, time and time again I meet people, especially other RDMs, who don't know enough about the class to justify their complaints about it. Or they aren't willing to use all the tools available to the class. If you are planning on doing nothing on RDM but healing, you are wrong. If you are planning on doing nothing but nuking on RDM, you are wrong. If you are planning on doing nothing but enfeebling on RDM, you are wrong. If you are planning on doing nothing but meleeing on RDM, you are wrong. Get on bg-wiki and look up every single one of your spells and abilities, learn exactly what they do, what their modifiers are, any discover and acquire an equipset set for each and every one. Get and utilize multiple weapons for different content/situations. Learn which element and debuffs each NM is strong/weak to.
You're not going to see Temper castable on others or any of our good spells work with Accession. You're not going to see the old RDM ever come back. Because too many forumgoers complained that all RDM did was Haste and Refresh people. They all wanted to melee melee melee. So I hope you enjoy meleeing as you'll be doing a ton of it, lol. -
07-11-2016, 03:00 PMThorva
Pretty sure every rdm in the game knows they aren't there for just 1 thing. In fact I have over 200 pieces of gear on rdm and a gearswap with closing in on 3k lines. I have rules for every subjob in the game, rules for cure dependent on if I am engaged, not engaged, weather, weather engaged, self, party/ally cures, engaged self and pt/ally cures, engaged self pt/ally cures with and without weather. I have rules for what weather/day I have to match nuke sets and even ws sets. I have engaged, idle, weather/day enfeeble sets, I have stoneskin cap + 5 pieces of stoneskin potency gear. I have cycle toggle on rdm for dw, single wield, daggers, clubs, swords, MaB dual wield of each version. I have distract/frazzle m. acc sets to land t2 just so I can land a potency/skill frazzle/distract 3, I break 50% triple attack with temper 2 in my melee sets. I really hope you weren't saying enspell hits 600 damage, not even remotely close, assuming you didn't mean that and it needs clarity for other people that means 600 enhance skill enspell. Enspell 1 works on multi-hit weapons/gear, but enspell 2 does not.
I don't think you read my entire post or you would have realized where I posted remove the resist rate and scale the potency like it is done on geo. Melee rdm is only seen in exp/solo, it will rarely if ever be in end game as a melee. No matter what SE has done to rdm in the past it will never hit the needed attack to make headway as a melee DD. Way too many other jobs hit far higher levels of both attack and ws modifier.
My previous acnt was a 2100 jp rdm, I had an acnt before that with 550 rdm when that was cap on cp, and I have already broken 1200 jp on rdm on this acnt and only had rdm leveled about a week now. I have been playing rdm since the beginning of 2006. I know rdm, I have read up on all the spells in it's arsenal. I can assure you that gear and knowledge are not the only 2 things that make rdm weak. Blind II has been considered a waste of merits for many years now, that won't change with nm acc. Slow II and Blind II don't need experimenting, that was done years ago. I have soloed all t1 nm's on rdm and a few t2 in ru-aun/zitah. (Haven't tried t3 yet), soloed all wkr, soloed all delve mega boss (took Atlus and Dyme with me to watch that happen) I used to help keep rdm gear updated in the rdm forums on ffxiah site. I know rdm better than I know any other job in the game and that includes drk which anyone that has played with me on drk knows I know what I am doing. The people that were around when I had my previous acnt 2100 jp rdm, know I know what I am doing on rdm.
RDM is extraordinarily powerful in content up to 132, that is assuming you get a group that will take you that high. Once you hit 145 content and higher SE balance system is an utter joke. The meta system has destroyed balance. Bringing in some of the ideas I posted not only brings rdm back, but potentially brings back melee dps in 145+
The biggest problem with 145+ isn't the acc issue, I have personally broken 1800 acc on drk, so we know that is possible. The problem is the stupidly high AoE dmg that people take. Giving rdm buffs to raise -pdt/mdt or eva/m. eva, as well as making a targeting version of temper with a cap on the multi-attack it gains while people stack on massive acc/dt gear, does not over power the job, that would balance the multi-attack gear with the need to supplement for acc/dt. The tanks that can hold 145+ content are doing so without these buffs, so it wouldn't magically make impossible tanking possible. Myrkr, sublimation, refresh gear, occult acumen, and mp returned gear has made refresh obsolete. Hence why you don't see people asking for a rdm to come cast refresh. People rarely cast haste to begin with and have in such become used to either hasting themselves or just going without it. In cases of end game linkshells they either haste themselves or they dedicate someone to do it, not a rdm and only haste 1. That makes haste 2 useless to anyone that isn't a rdm because melee don't go to 145+ content and mages use haste 1.
Rdm doesn't nuke as hard as blm or have access to death/comet/t6 spells so rdm is out on the nuking.
Rdm can't sc nukes like sch, so rdm is out there.
Rdm DoT is FAR weaker than sch DoT, so rdm is out there.
Rdm pro/shell barspells are stronger than rdm, so rdm is out there.
Rdm can't cure like a whm, so rdm is out there.
Rdm can't tank like a pld or run, so rdm is out there.
Rdm can't DD like blu, thf, dnc, cor, drk, war, so rdm is out there.
Rdm can't buff like a geo giving m. attk or lower mob magic defense, so rdm is out there. (Geo can lower both mob m. def and m. eva)
Rdm in general can't come close to the majority of jobs in any form of damage, it is not a damage dealer. Being able to deal damage and being considered a damage dealer are not the same thing. Rdm is a buff/enfeeble job and fails miserably at that in today's content due to the meta nm's and meta jobs.
To say people don't know what they are doing on rdm and that is the problem with rdm is a bold statement for never being in a party with someone on that job. Furthermore to state that the only problem with rdm is gear and knowledge while absolutely zero endgame shouts or linkshells are asking for a rdm on 145+ content is naive. Rarely will you see a rdm in content as low as 135. Most the time you won't even see a shout for a rdm for anything beyond exp parties. Rdm current largest role in the game is cure, haste, refresh in apex shout groups, and that is assuming they even take a healer. Most the time I see pld, run, blu shouts to tank and sc with each other, geo, sch and blm/s.
I fail to see how your condescending, and very naive, post hits any nails on the head regarding rdm. I jaw dropped trying to understand your enspell discussion and stating rdm is on par with all the rest of melee DD. 100% enfeeble accuracy still needs potency, something I already addressed. Lowered potency is still better than full resist, but when a rdm has to immunobreak the crap out of blind on an nm with ja there is an issue. Rdm highest magic skills are enhance and enfeeble, enhance/buff magic is done better on other jobs currently and enfeeble is so utterly useless that only extremely rare occasions do people use a rdm for it on 145+ content most the time they have to be coupled with an Idris geo in order to compete with the alternative geo x2 groups. -
07-11-2016, 03:46 PMSelindrileThe majority of content in the game is accomplishable with any reasonable setup, but there's little reason to choose a Rdm the majority of the time. Some of the harder content Rdm is reasonably useful on, for sure, but again, it's generally behind every support but Brd, and non-tank-melee aren't used much for the harder content in general, and even it it were, they'd be behind other options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooj
Rdm itself isn't actually a bad meleer, due to Temper/Enspells/Haste2, however it doesn't get access to the DD gear it needs to compete, that's the whole issue there, should it have access to these things? IDK, I don't really care about melee Rdm, and I don't feel like the majority of people here are really arguing for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooj
Why not? Because you said so? Sure, any given request about anything that is directed towards the devs is unlikely to be fufilled for obvious reasons, we know that out of the gate. The vast minority of suggestions even get responded to, much less implemented. But it's not an unreasonable request, and plenty of other things we didn't really expect to happen came down the pipeline, all we can do is ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooj
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07-12-2016, 12:14 AMRooj
Fine, don't listen to me and continue to be refused party invites. I don't get called "the best RDM" daily for no reason. Call it condescending if you want, I only came here to help. And while you're playing your GEO or other flavor of the month class just to get into content, I'll still be doing it on my RDM.
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07-12-2016, 12:37 AMSelindrileLol, "invites" you say, there's not really much hope of "invites" for anyone for the 135~145 content that Thorva and I have been mentioning. That's generally only done by linkshells, rarely pickup groups, at least on my server.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooj
I don't (and I doubt Thorva does) worry about getting "invites" because I am (and likely he is) in a shell that does such things, and we already go, but generally on another job, if Rdm is appropriate for the content, we go that, but our whole point is that it rarely is.
I also get called "the best computer tech" all the time by my friends, though really I'm quite terrible at it, but I'm better than them, and I'm willing to help them, doesn't make me any good at it, in the grand scheme of things. -
07-12-2016, 05:32 PMHyrist
Throva, if you need convincing of Red Mage not being as bad as you're pressing upon it, I suggest you go to FFXI AH and talk to the people there, in particular Portrey, who I don't think posts here anymore. It is best heard by people who are there frequently.
However, even you admit that up to 132 Red Mage is fairly incredible. Though there are some points I'd like to snip at as far as your posts go, the issue can be summarized by this statement of yours:
Rdm is a buff/enfeeble job and fails miserably at that in today's content due to the meta nm's and meta jobs.
The proposed correction: Red Mage is not a Buff/Enfeeble job. It is a support role job, similar to Corsair. The difference in diction means all the difference in function on the field. Our Enfeebles and Buffs are part of the whole that makes up our support function. It can, and in my humble opinion, should, also include all the other functions that you ruled out due to not being as good as the specialists in their field. In situations in which an additional skill-chain can mean another round of bursts from mages, I'd recommend against being too critical of the idea that a class that does not do optimal damage should outright not do damage or is not worth the slot.
But the true crux is the underlined - which is the culprit of all of this: The current meta. A lot of the current meta rely upon mechanics that are fundamentally broken, have been since years ago, and are at the peak of its struggle with players now. For example: the fact that Geomancer's Debufs have no level correction function at all, due to being unresistable, is a major flaw, especially considering their max potency.
Additionally, skill-chains were meant as a Melee function to co-ordinate with Melee as teamwork with Mages and other Melee. Scholar's ability completely bypasses this - how it got past balance checks is beyond me but it should have never existed, in my opinion.
Every other issue is describing what every other Melee has been suffering from, Accuracy, AoEs are general problems that, when addressed, Red Mages benefit from. Red mage doesn't suffer from TP generation issues - it can self-skillchain continuously if well geared. It's damage drops off due to the level correction on attack, which, if accuracy isn't a critical issue anymore, will get buffed due to more party emphasis on it.
The danger in the front lines is another issue that hits everyone - honestly, that can be something we, as a support, could address: If Square Enix balanced checked the enfeebles they weakened.
But first, again, a couple corrections this time, to the general RDM populace:
Blind II has been considered a waste of merits for many years now, that won't change with nm acc.
You know this statement to be situational at best. The condition in which Blind II is useful was niche (In situations where Evasion was neither capped or floored.) And that's why people called it useless. It was great for working with an evasion tank, and just one Merit outclassed a single percentage of Slow II when dINT dMND are equally capped. It takes quite a bit of Delay increase for Slow's scaling to outpace 40-60 additional accuracy loss above Blind I and Kura-Ni respectively and in cases where you can evasion tank, that's typically overkill, or inaccessible. That made Blind II great for low man groups on non-accuracy capped content.
I'd speculate that we need to rethink testing on Blind II's effectiveness overall due to the addition of RUN, and the increased percentage of monsters who spam attacks with internal delays not effected by slow. It would make sense that the Niche would have widened in these circumstances.
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To be clear, I do agree that the class needs a buff. However I would impress upon you to reconsider the route in which it is done. A lot of the problems about Red Mage in your eyes stem from the idea that Red Mage MUST be a specialist comparable to the ones you listed or it has no purpose, and I respectfully disagree. I've found that my experiences with the class run parallel with your statement that before ilvl132, we preform very well. I don't believe that performance should be degraded down to one or two gimmicks that justify our slot in a world where there is a lot broken with it that needs to be fixed first. If we're a part of the solution to that, or ease that solution, then we find our party slot.
Some pointers on my suggestions for Red Mage:
Phalanx II pales in comparison to Phalanx until max merits where it becomes equal at high Enhancing levels. However with Ascension there seems to be no point in the use of Phalanx II in compassion to Phalanx. Instead, I'd recommend that Phalanx II be changed from flat damage reduction number, to Damage Reduction percentage, capping at 15% at 500 Enhancing skill and 5 Merits, (tentative, that may be a little high). Balance factor is that it could count as Gear Damage Reduction and thus subject to cap. This would make it Unique to Red Mage due to being a merit spell, and address the outgoing damage output issues without messing too hard with what is pretty much considered Job Exclusive buffs.
Similarly, instead of correcting accuracy/evasion stastic, we can have Blind II add a static evasion chance calculated by dINT and enfeebling skill, up to a cap determined by Merit level. This will remove the 'overcapped accuracy' issue most NMs have due to level difference scaling and blow the niche of Blind II wide open.
As far as Slow II, it should effect all internal delays of 'TP move' normal attacks, and always should have.
Dia's line could be adjusted to include Magical Defense down. If we are concerned by the use of it through other classes, a Trait that makes this change on Red Mage (Level 51) could keep the balance between other classes in check, and give Red Mage a reason to use Dia above other classes. I also feel that Dia III's potency should grow with the number of merits, starting at 15% and growing to 19 or 20% at max merits. Alternatively, Saboteur affecting Dia's Potency would also work.
I am not comfortable with the idea of Temper line being something that can be shared with other classes. I'm sorry but they're effectively a trait a Red Mage has to maintain, not a superior version of a Corsair's roll. And 26% Triple attack does not feel like something I feel should be shared given the level of double and triple attack classes already have at their disposal. This is effectively our catch-up skill when it comes to melee performance. While I feel this may boil down to a difference in opinion However, - I do not believe Red Mage should be regulated to back-line position except when individual circumstances call for it. Making this a party buff would once again solidify Red Mage being in the back line by default in all party situations and would immediately result in me unsubscribing once again. I just flatly don't want this to happen, sorry.
There is not much else I feel needs adjusting here. Red Mage on the melee end really only suffers from attack starvation statically. We have access to the best WS and most of the gear necessary to abuse it. Yes, Taeon is weak in comparison to Herculean, but, like other jobs, we gear around our own abilities, and our spells help close parts of that gap. The rest is knowing what pieces to get where, and FFXIAH has a lot of info on that.
I strongly suggest reconnecting with people there. I can only share what I've found in my research and what little testing I've found. But the confidence exuded by those who are actually on those boards is infectious, as well as the solid data that backs it. There is still a lot that needs to be fixed. But a lot has changed for the better for the class, in my opinion. -
07-12-2016, 11:57 PMRydal
The merit spells are still stuck in the 75 era. Dia and Paralyze are the only useful ones because they can actually work. As already mentioned, Accession+Phalanx I outdoes Phalanx II, even while wearing augmented Relic armor. I got rid of all my Phalanx II merits for this reason and for the fact that tanks and BLUs can cast Phalanx on themselves. Blind II has needed to be revisited for a long time.
I don't see how Temper being castable on others, even if just with Accession, would make us backline. It doesn't take anything away from us. It just sounds kind of selfish. It is a nice toy that we have and it definitely levels the playing field when it comes to boosting our own multi-attack but this would give the spell use when we are not meleeing. Right now meleeing high level content is extremely dangerous and we can opt to conserve ourselves by backlining, rather than risk suicide. Temper being casted on others would give us an extra tool to toss out to others. Honestly, I don't care either way, but it doesn't pidgeon hole us to backlining at all. It's not like Temper being self cast makes us all frontline.
Also, I think this debate isn't drawing lines correctly. From what I'm gathering, everyone is making the content benchmark different. The Mithras are using the game's highest level content the benchmark (makes sense!), while others are making things like Vagary, SR, etc the benchmark (???). This is where the debate becomes convoluted. Of course RDM performs well in CL 130 (Vagary, SR, Incursion). All jobs do. It has nothing to do with RDM individually. Our gear and JP makes us completely overpower that kind of content. Escha and Reisenjima gear and master JP vs CL 130 is not an even playing field because CL 130 content was released way before Reisenjima, etc. Merlinic/119 Abjuration (+1) makes Skirmish, Delve, Vagary gear a joke. If it makes the gear of that content a joke, it also makes that content a joke. I can be the main healer, buffer, nuker and enfeebler in SR with a BLU BLU RDM set up because my gear and JP allow me to. A year ago today, it would have been much more difficult because Rscha Ru-aun and Reisenjima did not exist. We CANNOT make Vagary or SR level content the benchmark because then we will not see any major issues with RDM. Try replacing a BLU or SCH with a RDM against Reisenjima HELM NMs or WoC. You'll start to see that you NEED to be the best in a role in order to keep up. There's a reason that RUN shines in those fights over PLD and BLM magic bursting Death are necessary.
I agree that many of our self targeting spells (Gain, Enspells, Temper, etc) and our exclusive enfeebles (Distract, Inundation, Addle) help close the gap between us and normal melee. With good gear, Accuracy becomes less of an issue (at least no more of an issue than with other melee) and we start to see the problem being our much lower attack rating, lack of melee JAs, and our subjob/gear choices making or breaking our build. For example, RDM almost always use NIN (or DNC) for melee. Because of this, we lose out on STP, Attack Bonus, Defense Bonus, Double Attack and Accuracy Bonus (if not subbing DNC). We also miss out on melee JAs that subbing WAR allows us to enjoy. We have to overgear ourselves to compensate for the loss of these traits/JAs.
I think they should redo the combat and magic skills for RDM. Drop Archery (unless they increase it and put us on some WS), Throwing and Divine magic. Increase Sword to A- (equal to RUN), and increase Dark magic, Parrying and Shield to at least a C-. E and F are basically worthless at 99+. At 75, they can still do something, but at 99+ you might as well not have it. Maybe add Staff and raise Healing skill to C+. For JP/Gifts, Enhancing/Enfeebling duration should be increased by another 1 second. Stymie should be redone completely.
Or just do nothing and leave RDM as a try twice as hard for half the results job. I'll play it either way. -
07-13-2016, 07:24 AMHyrist
Melee JA's aren't so much of a problem as much as the fact that we have no native means of increasing our own Attack through any gainable means, and therefore are reliant on those JAs. If we hadn't been shut down on additional spells already, I'd say that'd be the cleanest route to go.
But, to touch on Temper. Spreading temper is the same as using Dia to buff our Attack. Once it becomes public grounds, Red Mage as an individual performance class suffers an indirect nerf. Instead of being the class with the highest multi-attack stacking, we instead fall behind every other class in Multi-Attack, because we become expected to give it to everyone by default. There's no point in Red Mage being in the front line at that point, you've just widened the gap by 20~26% Triple attack. You absolutely will be pigeon-holed with that. It's no different than Refresh/Haste era policies. SE is well aware on how Red Mage gets flooded with spellcasting when they're forced to single target buff people with multiple spells. This is why Inundation is a debuff, not a Buff spell as it was originally designed.
Is it selfish? Absolutely. But its selfish on the same level as saying that Natural Meditation is not default AoE, or that Warrior's Double Attack Trait, Breserk and Defender skills don't need to be AoE. Red Mage's Melee statistics are tied to its casting should not, by default mean it should always be a shared thing. If this was, in fact, a JA instead of an MA, we'd never be having this discussion on it. Temper is Red Mage's Multi-Attack JA. SE made it a spell to fit with it's stylistic history and keep with the 'Mage' motif. This is why I don't see it as wrong to keep Temper single-cast. Again, it's pretty much make or break for me at this point.
As far as the debate's line goes. I have to disagree with us drawing different lines. The conclusion I drew from everyone's argument is that people have different ideals as what they want Red Mage to BE on higher level difficulty content. A lot of Red Mages prefer that they keep the same line of actions they do up to ilvl130 content up higher. Others want to revert to Pre-ilvl era Red Mage and focus on support casting. I feel as if both approaches should be valid throughout the entirety of the game, given that there are plenty of role-changing hybrids in this game - having Red Mage be another one of them will not ruin the dynamic any further.
As far increasing our ratings - I don't see the point for Sword/Dagger. Our attack starvation comes from our lack of innate abilities to either dual wield or increase our attack a significant amount, not the 28 skill we lose out on our B- rating. That's really not much attack when you realize that's barely more than 10% of what we gain from our ilvl Swords alone. Buffs to Dia III will solve the attack problem but will fall in the same line of problems as our Temper argument: any boost available to us that is also given to the entire party at the same time is a net-zero for us in comparative strength (not factoring for diminishing returns playing in our favor). Seeming the popular argument against Red Mage is its performance in comparison to specialist classes, we're categorically needing buffs specifically to Red Mage's performance in an admittedly selfish manner. In this fashion we're not suffering from a loss of just under two and a half dozen attack. We're suffering from a bit over two and a half hundred attack in JA's alone. There's no minor adjustment that can be done to surmount this. Minimally, SE can lower the accuracy requirement allowing us to gear harder into Attack as well as benefit from the AoE attack buffs other Melee will undoubtedly get. Which is fine by me as I don't expect to match a dedicated damage dealer with what else we offer. (Although, looking at Corsair, perhaps we should.) But if we're talking improving our individual performance then the most sufficient way SE could resolve our attack deficiency problem would be to give us Dual Wield natively. That requires no additional spell slots and would enable us to Sub warrior or Dark Knight for the attack boosts.
And if we can't be put on Herculean, a comparable alternative that emphasis multi-attack (namely triple) that is augment-able would be preferable, but not as imperative as the native attack problems we have JA/Subjob/Self Buff wise.
Mage wise, my aforementioned changes to our Merit spells will do us a world of good.
As far as Styme. I'm of the mind that it should work over a duration, rather than on one spell. Unless they make magical accuracy a non issue, in which case scratch Styme all together and give us a different secondary 1hr. -
07-13-2016, 07:25 AMThorvaI am on that site very often, and if you have find me a crowd of rdm's being taken into 145 content I would love to see them. I can guarantee you, even as high up on a pedestal as you have placed him, protey is not going to 145+ content on rdm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
So you are trying to tell me that rdm support isn't based off enfeeble/enhance...... Like you literally just restated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Please quote me where I ruled rdm versatility out. I would love to know the point where I said rdm can't cure, nuke, or deal damage. I know for a fact I never said that. I do, however, know the very opposite. I even stated I have done the very opposite. I have main healed a vagary, I have been #2 in damage in an exp party while both opening skill chains as well as Magic Bursting off the skill chains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
But you neglect to recall the fact that I never once said rdm under-preforms in 132 and lower content. I said because of the meta nm's and circle jobs, rdm is out on higher end content.
Yeah... I mentioned that, I also proposed a way to bring rdm enfeebles back by doing the same thing that was done with geo to rdm just on a lower potency scale. That way since rdm can cast more enfeebles it won't become the broken 30 seconds between attacks and -50% def.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
And now they exist and there is no way around the desire to scope out a sch removing the need for melee sc, which is more reason as to why I proposed options the way I did. To allow people to choose how they want to do the content, by giving support rolls a way to allow the melee to be in that range as well as increasing the damage they deal while being stacked up in -dt gear. (I.E. target-able temper and m.eva/eva or -dt options)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Again, I already pointed this out. I fail to see why you are trying to debate with me. Rdm is massively lacking in attack which is heavily needed in 145 content, stuff you don't even see melee in. Again, something I gave up ideas to counter with already. It seems you are trying to use rdm ability in 132 and lower content as to why it is so great and it doesn't need buffs. That just isn't true, many jobs need many buffs for the 145 content, right now the only set up is tank, healer, geo, sch, blm, blm. That is a huge flaw in SE content design. Proposing ideas to allow not just rdm in that content, but many melee jobs as well because of rdm brings in balance. The thing people scream for, but once ideas get tossed around people want to claim it would make it overpowered and push the ideas aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Our eva at 145 content is so drastically low in comparison to nm acc that blind II will not matter, it has been that way since delve. Our gear has changed, but so have the nm's. Everything has scaled. Blind II just is not effective, and it certainly isn't effective enough to have a rdm take the spot of a blm in a MB set up in 145 content when a blm can cast blind 1 on maju and still MB 2 spells for capped dmg, so changing the nm acc from capped with blind I and MAYBE dropping its fight long accuracy by 3% and using a rdm to MB maybe 130k dmg in the time a blm can do 200k dmg. I repeat, rdm is still out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Show me where my proposal takes literally anything away from rdm. It doesn't, it build on what we have, rdm has always been, up until recently, the strongest enfeeble/enhance job in the game. Since abyssea people have pulled away from "bring any job, we can still find use for it" to the "bring this job or we can't take you" style thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Now.... again.... because people seem to either blatantly ignore, or just flat out miss it, I still go to 135 and lower content on jobs I want. Rdm and Drk do fine with the right gear and a lot of knowledge. I blink like a christmas tree on rdm even with /lockstyle. I swap gear for literally everything. I swap gear just for walking around. Plenty of people know rdm, not only the few names you see, however those wide spread names are NOT going to 145 content on rdm. Just like I don't go to 145 content on drk, saevel doesn't go on war, Afania might get to go on his cor though, Valli doesn't go to 145 content on thf (he uses a new name now) 145 content.... not 135, we are talking about rdm in 145 content. Where only rank, whm, sch, geo, blm go. Something I am making a proposal to allow not ONLY rdm, but melee jobs as well.
At this point most rdm have given up hope on phalanx II and just /sch and use phalanx 1. Phalanx 2 actually is stronger max merits with spell enhance cap and 5/5, but it isn't enough of a difference for rdm to give up para/slow II. However as you state it being reworked as a % dmg reduction I think would be enough to get many rdm to put merits into it even if it was only 3% per merit for a max of 15% or drop it down to 2% per merit at a max of 10%. I Highly doubt anyone would merit at 1% per merit unless it breaks the -dt cap of 50%Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
One of the main problems with phalanx 1 is that SE ****ed up and gave both pld and run phalanx. That should have been exclusive, I complained the day I saw SE handing it over to pld, I remember I was in abyssea farming Orthrus horns. In fact I was on rdm/sch using accession phalanx.
Would need a massive gain in order to be used in 145 content. The nm acc is entirely too high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
This would counter SE design to give ever nm massive tp regain and time based tp moves. They would declare that overpowered and nerf it back to original state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
I never claimed to have the best idea for any of the proposed ideas, they were just ideas. Something like this would be a good idea, even if they only made dia 3 to have the m. def down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
This is the opinion of a few vs the opinion of how ever many else that would like to see something like this implemented. While I do agree triple attack could inherently be broken in terms of giving it out as a buff in that quantity. I don't think SE would allow that much triple attack in a single buff. This is also why I said make temper 2 double attack and make that one the targetable spell. All the melee rdm would cry because they lose triple attack, but it isn't like rdm can gear up 20%+ in triple attack gear and load up double attack to well over 30% to balance out the loss of temper triple attack. Furthermore this would NOT force rdm into a backline job, if a rdm is in the party it already has a slot, all it has to do is cast spell on other DD's, how does that force rdm to be back line? Dnc can cure people but it isn't forced to stand with the mages. (can build tp off no-foot rise, raise potency of dances too) That was just your own personal view of a rdm, if that one adjustment locks a rdm as a backline only job then it somehow got more potency when casting on pt than self.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Gear is what makes people able to do things, taeon in general is so attack/stat starved that temper II and access to ws does NOT close the gap. Want proof of that? Put a rdm in taeon vs a blu in taeon, check the parse, then put that same blu in herc gear. Tell me the difference. A decked out rdm will cap out with about +260 dex "MAYBE" 270 and in the low 1k range of attack during ws. That is top tier, decked out BiS CDC rdm. Get a mid-tier (which herc would be the standard) blu in herc with the same amount of gil tossed into augments running tang+1 and niburu blade, and you will have a cdc set with closing in on +300 dex and more than 1.4k attack before it uses /war ja to boost it's attack even further. (My ls has plenty of bandwagon herc geared blus with that very gear in those very stat ranges.) Go map out a BiS rdm, you will see I am dead on with those numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
You didn't have any useful data to back anything in the 145 content. You had a great idea with phalanx, but blind II is dead, slow II won't get changed because it would screw with SE coding as well as been seen as too strong even in the eyes of the company that gave rudra a massive buff a couple years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
"Reconnecting" with people won't change the fact rdm will NOT get invites to 145 content. If you are running with people that are taking rdm and melee to 145 content without these or other buffs, I can assure you that you are paying for a win while being on that job or you aren't winning with that setup. Both melee and rdm have zero use for 145 content. Please stop talking about rdm ability in 130 content like it matters when someone says endgame. Shout groups in sparks gear can beat all 119 content, some can beat 124 content. Reforge and skirmish geared jobs can beat 129 content. So rdm has usefulness for a full 3 more ilvl worth of content before it starts getting left behind, at 135 content rdm are few and far between, at 145 content rdm as well as melee are nonexistent.
Even if merit 2 category got buffed on rdm, then you still have to determine what to put merits in. That is a fix for lvl 75 cap rdm, not ilvl rdm. SE would actually have to rework the merit 2 category into new useful options for rdm and make all the merit 2 spells available to rdm at all times while NOT giving those buffs to other jobs. This is something SE would just never do, more than likely, and I highly doubt it despite the rumors we have heard since the release of ToAU, in order to adjust rdm merit 2 category and still make it usefull, SE would have to fully unlock all merits in merit 2 for all jobs. That means 5/5 on all jobs in all merit categories. -
07-13-2016, 08:24 AMUrmomSee here's the thing though. People don't necessarily choose what is best or even willing to try what works. The community is very stubborn sometimes in what they choose to bring. You could be fighting a mob that absolutely has to have a rdm enfeeble on it at all times and is fairly resistant and a lot of groups would still bring a mediocre geared sch or blm and hope they land it than a rdm they know will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorva
Even if you made a mob that was so evasion/magic evasive that literally the only way to hit it was with idris geos and full jp rdm debuffs and brd buffs people would still try to force their square peg into the round hole and take extra other mages or setup sneak attack ws shenanigans.
I agree rdm could use some help but with full jps it's not as far away as some jobs at least in some respects... but large parts of the community are afraid to try anything new until it's been beaten in there head that it's not only good but it's the best. I mean look at geo it was always decent but it wasn't until it became overwhelmingly OP that it really caught on. It took automatics getting dts on par with wearing aegis and epeoltry at the same time before that caught on for tanking. -
07-13-2016, 12:44 PMThorvaQuote:
Originally Posted by Urmom
I understand that and agree, what I am trying to do, what I have been trying to do, is come up with a way and ideas that would NOT make the job over powered, yet still bring in new ideas and give players the option to play on the jobs they enjoy.
I said the same thing you stated, "a lot of groups would still bring a mediocre geared sch or blm and hope they land it than a rdm they know will." That is because the current dynamics and nm's can still be fought either fully without enfeebles, or with zero potency/duration/tier1 enfeebles. This current system pushes rdm down the ladder. Rdm isn't far from being end game. Anyone that has ever played rdm at 2100 jp knows that, but scale system combat and lack of rdm target-able buffs such as the option to cast temper on pt, or the lack of needed potent tier 2+ enfeebles are what drives the player base away from using rdm in 145 content.
The current system leaves rdm out, in most 135 content and all 145+ content. Again, this is why I was trying to bring up ideas that are possible and would not break the job on a level of idris geo, (which I still think needs to be nerfed)
Raising rdm DoT to a semi-respectable level
Poison II is way low on dmg in comparison to helix, 100ish or 250ish if you use sabo vs 10k, rdm doesn't need 10k, but 400 and 800 with sabo would be nice
Making temper target-able (At the very least make temper 2, target-able and change from triple attack to double attack)
Turning phalanx II into a % based dmg reduction as Hyrist brilliantly came up with as an option (The only problem I have here is the allowable merits spent)
Adjusting Dia as both physical and magical -def, in the same sense you can adjust Bio to lower both attk and m. attk (The only problem I have here is the allowable merits spent, that or finally give use tier 4)
Raising the barspell cap so whm isn't beating rdm (this still won't break the game because rdm will never replace a rdm, it just offers incentive)
Fix enspell II, it is terrible
Futhermore SE needs to stop throwing darts on a board with rdm gear, I realize rdm can't have top end options, but a blue mage is a mage, how is blu on way better gear options than rdm, I know they aren't the same, let's avoid that discussion because that still takes us to the topic of blu gets high attack and gets to /war and rdm has inferior attack and needs to sub a dw job which ultimately kills any conversation about making rdm too "op" as a melee. Blu gets on Adhemar, Amalric, Carmine, and Herc gear. That gives Blu a top tier TP/WS set, nuke set, optional high tier ACC pieces. Rdm is on Amalric, Carmine, Kaykaus, and Taeon gear. That gives rdm a high tier nuke set, 2 Acc pieces of gear & kiting piece of gear, Healing gear that nearly no rdm will ever spend gil on, and a low tier tp/ws set. The gear is not even remotely close to balanced. Can't think of any rdm out there that would spend the gil for Kaykaus when Vanya is on the table. the only gain would be cure pot II + 3%, hardly worth it when rdm cure 4 is already hitting 1.2k+ and the mp pool rdm has. -
07-13-2016, 01:15 PMUrmom
I think you misunderstood a bit of what I was saying. It wasn't that people wouldn't bring rdm because it was less useful it was that people would refuse to bring rdm even when it was clearly the best for what needed to be done and would actually add more than those extra magics. I've seen it argued that a second sch is better just because of stratagem concerns and hoping that they can maybe land the enfeeble that definitely needs to be landed. Basically came down to would rather risk wiping and letting the mob regen a ton for a long time then have 1 less skillchain a minute or something.
The community is such right now that you could basically have an nm a permanent 30' doom aura for all non rdms and most the game would still refuse to take rdms. And that's probably not even much of an exaggeration.
As far as the ideas yeah basically making all the rdm spells targetable to party membes would be huge but not too OP. Phalanx II is interesting... since it does just as much as phalanx I don't see a problem as long as Phalanx stays the same.
Love the dia/bio
Also for dia/bio make them enhancable the same number of times regardless of tier with qd. Right now max def/att down from bio/dia is 20% so means if you have a cor dia/bio II are basically same thing as III.
I actually have always liked enspell 2s... the problem has always been potency is way too weak (seriously geo can grant a way larger meva down for all elements) and rdm needs to melee... instead what I think we can do is again like other rdm spells make it targetable and either raise the potency a ton and/or change it from meva to an element to magic def to an element ie like Gambit. Heck if it was like gambit it would be fine being self only. -
07-13-2016, 01:45 PMHyrist
Thorva, I'm flatly not interested in the posturing debate you seem to want to do with everyone who has a different viewpoint with you. I have not argued that Red Mage's front line is capable of 145 content. Quit trying to posture yourself better or more knowledgeable than others based off that accusation.
Also, it's proving that you're not reading my post in its entirety before you start replying, as you addressed Blind II's issue before this. Please read a post in its entirety before you decide to hit the "Quote" button and begin trying to reply. Point in case:
Where I said these together at different points of my post:Quote:
But you neglect to recall the fact that I never once said rdm under-preforms in 132 and lower content. I said because of the meta nm's and circle jobs, rdm is out on higher end content.
This is where I acknowledged both of your points and went on to make points that the direction you were seeking for the job wasn't necessary. Arguing that the correct path for Red Mage perhaps should be similar to Corsair while still retaining the label of 'Support'Quote:
However, even you admit that up to 132 Red Mage is fairly incredible...
But the true crux is the underlined - which is the culprit of all of this: The current meta. A lot of the current meta rely upon mechanics that are fundamentally broken, have been since years ago, and are at the peak of its struggle with players now. For example: the fact that Geomancer's Debufs have no level correction function at all, due to being unresistable, is a major flaw, especially considering their max potency.
As far as:
You implied it by omission, by defining Red Mage as a Buffer/Debuffer job, and then continued to list on how our other functions just don't cut it. I thank you for your clarification otherwise. We agree then that Red Mage is a support class, one in which it's buff and Debuff aspects are an important facet, but not it's only facet.Quote:
Please quote me where I ruled rdm versatility out. I would love to know the point where I said rdm can't cure, nuke, or deal damage. I know for a fact I never said that.
Getting back to the point, the reason why I spent so much highlighting the effectiveness of Red Mage on ~135 content is that your purpose for Red Mage at 145 is effectively to turn tail away from the course it has at ~135. To quote the previous post I made just before your reply, which it seems you did not read:
You asked me to point out where you were taking something away from Red Mage - you quite potentially wanted to take away its exclusivity on Temper, in your very first two posts on this thread. Temper II is pretty much the one thing that enables Red Mage to have any hope of being comparable in Melee post 135 (Read: after other adjustments are made). You take that away from it you pigeon-hole the class in the back line permanently. It may be a net gain for the party, but it is a severe net loss for the Red Mage who desires to be in the front lines.Quote:
But, to touch on Temper. Spreading temper is the same as using Dia to buff our Attack. Once it becomes public grounds, Red Mage as an individual performance class suffers an indirect nerf. Instead of being the class with the highest multi-attack stacking, we instead fall behind every other class in Multi-Attack, because we become expected to give it to everyone by default. There's no point in Red Mage being in the front line at that point, you've just widened the gap by 20~26% Triple attack. You absolutely will be pigeon-holed with that. It's no different than Refresh/Haste era policies. SE is well aware on how Red Mage gets flooded with spellcasting when they're forced to single target buff people with multiple spells. This is why Inundation is a debuff, not a Buff spell as it was originally designed.
Is it selfish? Absolutely. But its selfish on the same level as saying that Natural Meditation is not default AoE, or that Warrior's Double Attack Trait, Breserk and Defender skills don't need to be AoE. Red Mage's Melee statistics are tied to its casting should not, by default mean it should always be a shared thing. If this was, in fact, a JA instead of an MA, we'd never be having this discussion on it. Temper is Red Mage's Multi-Attack JA. SE made it a spell to fit with it's stylistic history and keep with the 'Mage' motif. This is why I don't see it as wrong to keep Temper single-cast. Again, it's pretty much make or break for me at this point.
Also, not sure if Triple Attack on a whole party is a good idea - one of the issues I wanted to bring up for discussions on adjustments that Red Mage would benefit from is the TP feed issue. My idea on that as a general adjustment is to have Store TP's effect calculate on the entire amount of TP generated in an attack round, balanced so that it can in-fact break the minimum per-hit limit we currently have on it. (And for the record, I don't buy the coding excuse when they turned around and coded a queuing system for Ambuscade. Important balance adjustments are worth the time investment, as I'm sure you agree.)
So, bottom line: We are not in conflict as to the state of Red Mage right now. Though, honestly I feel your obsession with the top echelon of endgame is bit much seeming the mass majority of the players out right now aren't even scratching the second tier of Escha. It's where you're trying to direct Red Mages that we disagree - that sort of discussion needs no parses as we're talking theoretical improvements, and lining it up with what is good for Red Mage right now.
And that's all I'm saying about that. I'd rather talk about the ideas - because that's the real meat of this discussion. I really don't have a negative view of you, other than you seem to be easily combative.
_________________________________________________________________
Going down some points again.
Blind II: You're missing the point of my change to the spell. I'm talking static % hard enforced miss chance. We're talking a hard check against a (let's say 15% fully merited, I like this number.) proc chance of that attack missing, regardless of accuracy/evasion difference. Akin to Blink on a debuff, that lasts for a duration, rather than having a set number of shadows that can be wiped. That would make the spell effective in any circumstance in which physical damage was a factor.
Temper II: I don't see your obsession with taking away Red Mage's personal effects for the sake of a quick gimick. This is why I said reconnect with the group. It's not 'a few'. This is one of the few things that still excite Red Mages as most who cared about the huge buff/debuff aspects of the 75 Era have moved on to other classes that appeal to them more. Do you not like Meleeing? That's the only thing I can infer from your continuous nerfing of this skill to accommodate everyone else but a Red Mage. There is no need to change this spell, at all.
Slow II: I'm talking non TP using TP attacks (the ones that function as 'normal' attacks) Given that we're aiming go push Melee back into content, speculatively (as we're both speculating as to what SE would do at this point) SE would have no ground to stand on, as Mobs are still receiving TP from incoming attacks. So much so, in fact, that we'd likely have to re-address Subtle Blow (as per my previous idea concerning that).
Raising DoT: I think you have the wrong approach here.
Let's start at the baseline: Scholars 'DoT's are effectively their Tier VI nuking line, and it's had problems since the get go (some of which required quick patching). Part of which is the fact that there can be no Two Helixes on a monster at a time. This actually cements it as "The Scholar's" Very firmly.
You can't make that assessment with Poison II. When you buff it, it goes to everyone who can use it, RDM, BLM, and DRK. Which of these three do you think will end up using? It's likely not going to be Red Mage. Why bring a RDM to cast it when your BLM can cast it in-between death casts for a small loss in damage? You'd have to tack that damage adjustment onto gifts and, honestly, I don't see where it would fit there. I can't help but think that if we want to be doing Damage over Time, we should be meleeing. That's what our enspells are for, and we already get gifts for those and have it higher than any other class. That's not an insult in the idea that our Magical DoT should be boosted, that's just the default thinking pattern I get whenever that conversation is raised. Red Mage has never really been a powerful DoT class. It just simply abused DoTs to out-survive monsters. We're going to need something changing different than Poison II to have that, and I'm stuggeling of thinking of a way to do that that doesn't outright bust a major balance mechanic.
As far as our Barspells: They're single target, so they're really not meant to be a party utility the way WHM's are. Honestly, I'd rather a stronger boost to Phalanx and Accession that and make it stack-able with Phalanx II.
Issues with things like Dia III, Bio III, and the rest of our merit spells being conflicting when we as Red Mages need to levy as much angles as we can to be party effective: Instead of having the merits force raise the cap effectivness of each spell, have it effect duration like the Dia/Bio line and/or have it simply ease the curve of dMND/dINT/Enhancing. Have Bio III and Dia III scale off of Darkness and Enfeebeling gear (this would go with the raising darkness magic rating mentioned earlier)
Fixing Enspell II's : Here's the rub. How? The obvious would be to change it so that the cap and base are effected at the time of cast. That one is obvious. But here's the deal it's never going to outweigh Enspell I's on a multi-attack format, and that's our going thing. The damage would have to be buffed pretty heavily. Then again, perhaps this is how you get your DoT buff? It already inflicts magical evasion down on the dominant element above the one of the Enspell cast, perhaps it can instead apply a powerful DoT Debuff that is maintained by initial hits (or perhaps even grows with damage). The question is whether or not that can be coded appropriately.
Gear: Standing opinion is this: Red Mage and Blue Mage should share the same Armor Pool. Period. There is literally no reason not to do it this way. The fear of Red Mage becoming overpowered is laughable in the face of where Blue Mage stands right now, and sharing the same armor pool is not going to innately make up for the differences in traits and spells that pull Blue Mage ahead of Red Mage.
There's still the matter of Red Mage's attack deficiency. I'm really thinking that the answer there is just plain Dual Wield for Red Mages, enabling better sub-job usage for those going on the front lines. Another adjustment they can do is simply nerf the attack correction form level Difference. That helps everyone but Red Mage and other low-attack classes will benefit from it more. But I'm still of the opinion that those who've invested as far as they have into the melee route from RDM do not deserved to be snubbed when making adjustments for 145+ endgame. -
07-13-2016, 07:41 PMThorvaJust going to leave it at this, you either don't pay attention or have zero clue what you are talking about. I have covered things many times over in the thread and you still try to argue the exact same thing I covered and in some points you are literally arguing against me on things we agree on. First off, I did read your entire post. If I didn't address it, it was because it wasn't worth addressing. If i did address it out of order, dear Lord the world will end... Again if I don't cover it, it wasn't worth my time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Starting at the top,
Using the adjustments I have proposed does nothing to change it in 135 content except possibly bring it into a low man situation in placement of other jobs, again this only gives new options doesn't change the dynamics of the game. It would not change the job play style, it only means cast different spells or accession ones we already have.
Blind, I am not missing the point. I flat out said it is entirely too weak and needs a severe buff, again if anything I agreed with you. For some reason it seems like you and I weren't in agreement but we were, the current blind II is utterly usesless and would need a % based system. Static numbers don't work with todays content. We need more % based enfeebles.
Temper being target-able can not, and will not indirectly nerf rdm. It will give rdm a reason to be in the pt, if you can't hit things now, it won't matter if you can't hit them assuming you can target temper on pt. Just because you can cast temper on the party does NOT remove the exclusivity of it being a rdm needed buff. It enhances the need for rdm because other DD would need the spell. Further more you can still cast it on yourself and swing a sword. This spell does not close the gap on rdm being rdm only spell. This goes back to put rdm up against a blu, drk, war, with or without temper the spell being used on rdm is so pathetically useless rdm literally has no use using it for itself except only in apex or solo events. That is literally the only time a rdm is being used as a melee, why not be able to give the buffs to jobs that have innate attack and solid gear options. I repeat, this does NOT remove exclusivity, it only offers it to others players as a rdm exclusive buff. It does not stop rdm from swinging the sword in a group, this coupled ws spams and red lotus blade creates the fusion link in sc for much harder hitting jobs to close 5-6 step light sc with higher levels of tp for the closing ws. It doesn't stop rdm from melee, it doesn't remove the exclusivity, it literally changes nothing but the desire to bring in a rdm. Also, as I said, either lower the potency of temper if giving both double and triple attack, or make temper II double attack and offer the option to cast on party similar to the current phalanx II system.
Slow II, I see where you are going with that, and would possibly need to add in a reduces tp gain on the spell itself. This can carry over with brd buffs as well, (infact a lot of the same ideas could be reworked for brd)
Raising DoT can actually be much more simple than just raising the dmg, Dia and Bio go all the way up to 5 in the .dat files and nm's as old as abyssea have cast them, giving us dia/bio 4 and new tier of aga would give us that new -def/-m.def -attk/-m.attk set up. Would just need a little extra coding, but it removes the need for the merit point clash. This goes the same with poison, we don't need to buff poison 2 with poison 3 is in the system possibly give poison 3 some level of plague? Maybe that would be the way to go and wouldn't be a need to mess with the tp feed on slow II, this would give a reason to bring rdm to mitigate some of that tp AoE dmg and still have a scaling DoT for ilvl content, nothing too strong but something higher than what we have.
Rdm enfeeble tiers are still on 75 cap with the exceptions of addle, break, distract and frazzle. Addle overwirtes pinning nocturne on brd which isn't nice to brd and distract/frazzle/addle all scale wonderfully but anything pre-cap lift won't come close to scaling in a sense of what would be ideal. Again I know sch and blm deal more dmg than rdm, this is why I wasn't being that guy that says, well rdm needs t6 nukes and helix 2 that does 10k/tick, I scaled the dmg down to what I feel is a fitting level. 400-800 tick DoT wouldn't be overpowered in the least.
Fixing enpell II, I literally couldn't give a perfect idea on this one. Allowing it to proc on multi-attack could help it, also potency on time of cast as you state would help both the spell as well as rdm white dmg. Maybe add in secondary stats like sch stormsurge? Or like you said add in some form of debuff, maybe even just add in elemental DoT, burn/choke/rasp etc, like I said. I would never have the top idea on that one, I just know the current enspell II never get used unless on accident.
Urmom came up with this one that seems like a decent idea as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urmom
Gear, we both agree something needs to change there, although depending on what other buffs SE would actually be willing to do in the DoT/enspell dept, giving rdm native dual wield could be a bad idea if it allowed us to /war. Would just tip the balance in rdm favor due to enspells, higher attack (than we currently have) and DoT.
I 100% agree the gear options need to be fixed, rdm has always been dart board gear decision. Rdm is a front line sword mage, there is literally zero reason why it can't wear all light armor.
Honestly the only thing we actually disagreed on was the temper. I know you feel it takes away from rdm, but I think if we put up a poll on who would like to see rdm be able to cast at least a 15-20% double attack temper on pt we would get more yes than no, then the poll beyond that would be to ask if rdm casting on temper would take rdm out of the melee spot. If rdm is already in the pt and casting temper, there is no reason it shouldn't be able to be melee unless the mob eva is just too high.
No, I understood clearly what you meant, that is why I am trying to come up with rdm exclusive ideas that would give people a reason to look at rdm again. Nobody looked at sch before they found an exploit on spamming those self made, distance, sc. I don't want exploitable ideas, and I don't want an end-all God level job. I actually can't stand God level jobs/games. They bore me and I quit playing them. I just want something exclusive to rdm that would give people a reason to look at breaking the in-the-box thinking and allow more than 5 jobs to play in endgame content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Urmom
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07-13-2016, 07:54 PMJakukTruly awful idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorva
You want to gimp a RDM spell to benefit other jobs when the spell was intended to augment a job that was starved of said buffs since they were removed from the armour they were on to make way for BLU.
I do however somewhat agree with it being able to target others, though I'd sooner make it targetable but with the negative of only RDM's natural (skill + merits) enhancing skill counting when not self-cast, so while RDM gets ~30% TA others will get 10%, though I'd rather that also come with RDM being put back on the light-style armour it used to be on before BLU, or the addition of other spells that augment RDM's abilities, the way they were originally envisioned, for example finally adding Faith and Bravery as job-abilities (not spells) would be amazing.
Similar to RUN's Inquartata but for Evasion, I agree though maybe similar should be added as a trait to NIN instead, though this topic is about RDM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Always hated this personally, I know it was to give WHM something unique (in being AoE), but they already have it, they get more gear, and even MDB tacked on, should have been AoE for both RDM and WHM in the first place, with maybe single-target being added with RUN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Agreed entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
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07-14-2016, 12:18 AMUrmomThe problem is people want the exploit level playing lol. Which granted isn't a new thing but most of the times in the past it wasn't so exclusively soQuote:
Originally Posted by Thorva
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07-14-2016, 01:22 AMRydal
Hyrist: As mentioned before by Urmom, Temper proc rate is based on the CURRENT Enhancing skill. RDM has the highest Enhancing skill and gear/job gifts to help boost it to levels others jobs cannot hope to reach (melee SCH? melee WHM? any other job would have to sub SCH in Light Arts to come close and even then...). Making Temper castable on party members would still allow us to enjoy a significantly higher multi-attack proc than other jobs. The only thing is RDM lacks TA gear (outside of augmented Taeon and some accessories) to keep the gap as large as it currently is. This can be fixed by your own suggestion of putting RDM and BLU on the same gear set.
Thorva: Phalanx II right now is an awful spell. It scales horribly compared to Phalanx I. It needs to be revamped. I would hate for Temper II, an awesome spell, to become inferior just so we can cast it on people. Thanks but no thanks. Self TA is better than DA on everyone.
I will say that RDM should still be on all healing gear that it shares with WHM, BRD and SCH (Chironic/Kaykaus anyone?) as well as mage gear it shares with BLM SCH and GEO (Merlinic but why wasn't RDM put on Barkarole Earring?). BLU are not on these sets and they don't make sense on BLU. Keeping them off of Adhemar, Herculean and all melee Ambuscade really hurt melee. I don't see them adding RDM to any past melee gear so this is something we'll have to look forward to. -
07-14-2016, 02:57 AMThorva
I had thought about the concept of temper being weaker being cast on others myself, I personally didn't throw the idea out there because I highly doubt SE would ever consider making coding like that.
I also thought and believe I mentioned letting rdm keep temper II as triple attack and lowering the potency of temper in general. This would be the alternative to creating the phalanx 1/2 system with temper. I know a lot of people that think it is a bad idea just because they want temper II to be triple attack and have mass potency. I fully understand they want this, I respect that. However, as mentioned before these are ideas to get rdm into the higher end content, not our personal feelings. I never said I would personally enjoy losing 25% triple attack spell. I just would like to see rdm have a reason to be invited again.
Rydal, I know phalanx 2 is terrible, I don't have it merited, never merited it in the past and never will merit it on it's current system. Phalanx 2 caps out at 36 dmg reduced while phalanx 1 caps out at 35 dmg reduced (that is without phalanx gear bonus) 1 point of dmg will never be worth 5/5 merits. Hyrist came up with a great idea for phalanx II, something that I would willing to put merits into.
Somene mentioned rdm should be on all cure and nuke gear, I disagree. Rdm does have a lower MaB trait than blm so it shouldn't always get the top tier nuke options. In the same respect blm shouldn't be on the top tier m. acc options either. Also don't think rdm needs to be on all the top tier cure gear, Vanya is plenty good, and I cap cure power as well as cure potency and cure received because of my mixture of vanya attire. Gives me capped hp when I cure on lights day/weather. 1 hp to full hp off cure 4, otherwise I cure 4 in the pt/ally in the 1.2k range. Not really needed anything beyond that. Besides Kaykaus is almost as ugly as vanya. -
07-14-2016, 12:28 PMHyrist
No Throva, you keep missing the point.
You're arguing there'd be no change in no change in the 135 play style. I'm talking about making the 135 play style valid for the 145+ content, front and back line.
You and Rydal are both wrong in that making Temper II party cast won't outright prevent that from happening. First, Rydal, unless you're saying Protey is wrong, Temper II's potency is based on enhancing skill at time of cast. He was the one that confirmed the research on that. It's not based off current Enhancing Skill the same way Enspell II's factor. Unless I mistook your wording, as that's what I took away form your statement.
This means the potency we get from Temper II, we give to other players. We'll never have a native Triple Attack, even with gear, superior to that of anyone who has a natural trait in that in addition to our cast. Nobody would let us Melee in favor of making sure every melee and tank would have that buff up 24/7.
I don't believe we need to give out Temper II to be get into parties. The fact that you have to nerf it acknowledges that you know it's overboard to begin with. If we're going that far, I'd recommend that instead we boost Haste II to cap off Magic Haste on its own, as it'll boil down to effectually the same thing without A) Taking away from something that's pretty much RDM specific by design. Or B) Increasing our cast time/load.
Honestly, I feel, in general, that for us to be offensive support casting feels a bit contradictory to the opportunity we have here. There IS a need in parties we could fill, and it's not spreading more damage boosts - its a massive lack in defense Melee have against these enemies. General adjustments to level difference should help the offensive aspects of what classes need. Instead, we would be quite useful in enhancing the defensive aspects of the party/alliance.
Thorva, you have the idea of utilizing more tiers of spells. I have to begin by the paper-thin excuse SE put up earlier as disclaimer: They say they don't have the resources for adding more spells. Yes, the graphics are there, but I'm wondering if it has more to do with spell limits in coding, then the actual graphics. I don't know, I don't speak for them. I just feel like the disclaimer should be said, even if we were to speculate this route as a possible solution ,it might outright be disqualified.
That said, I like the idea of a catching up our other tier spells. The trade off here is that they would have to redo our merits to compensate. Make the Debuff II line a Scroll spell, and transform our merits into "Paralyze Effect +", etc. Which, honestly, should have been what they did for us in the first place, IMO. This way there's no conflict between the spells you had to merit for, and the spells we'd get past 75. The merit spells pinned us in a corner, development wise.
So when you think of what we've gotten defensively. A flat 15% chance of Physical attacks to be evaded regardless of enemy accuracy, a large (10-15%) Damage reduction on a spell without need for gear (Enabling classes to not have to gear as much Damage reduction) Fixing Slow's effect on both Attack frequency and possible TP gain, and buffs to Bio III (or even higher tiers with the Tier adjustment you have in mind) - we could be come a premiere defensive buffer/debuffer in a situation where that sort of thing is desperately needed. - That could be our in, and you'd only be adding to the class while doing so, instead of adjusting something down to make it accommodate for a party. And again, if we feel that isn't enough, boosting Haste II could close that gap real quick, and free up other support spells for other stats in a melee DPS group.
Balancing Dual Wield with Warrior subjob and appropriate enspells - I can feel your hesitation on that. As a compromise, perhaps we can give Enspell II line its own native attack boost on top of fixing it. It would not be as strong as /warrior, of course, but that plus the gear fixes might be enough to surmount the Attack starvation we get from level adjustments. Only thing is that steals thunder from Endark - not that I particularly mind that, but it could bother DRK mains. -
07-15-2016, 12:27 AMRydal
A couple things:
1. I guess I should clarify. Currently, Temper is self cast only, so whether we are in Enhancing skill gear or not, we have the highest Enhancing skill of all jobs and the gear to support that. If Temper were made castable on others, it would go by that job's current enhancing skill level, not our own. It would have a base rate at zero enhancing skill (which is 5% for Temper I) since most jobs don't have enhancing natively and only RUN, WHM, SCH, BLM, and anyone subbing SCH in light arts would get higher. This would still keep us at the top of the Temper Totem pole. This would also make it less of a need (but still a minor need). We would still enjoy a 30ish% TA rate, while a job like WAR would only get 5%.
2. Capping magic Haste with just haste II is unnecessary. Haste III or bust. Since new spells are not possible, we should move past this. As for making merit spells RDM exclusive Scrolls, YES! YES! Do this immediately! Group 2 merits could be changed to Job Traits, like Bravery, Faith, maybe an enhancement to Composure, Fast cast or Magic Accuracy. They could even adjust Group 1 to having potency+ merits, consolidating Magic accuracy merits into one group, and maybe increasing enspell potency interms of power and accuracy bonus.
3. Native Dual Wield is a little too much I think. Traditionally, RDM are not powerful attackers and dual wielding doesn't make sense for the job. Even in other FF games it is out of place. Focusing on traits and fixing existing spells is a more likely outcome for any improvement to the job. They should fix what we already have and add traits that wouldn't take away from our subs. Fixing Enspell II is another good starting point as you mentioned. If Enspell II granted some sort of accuracy or power bonus, and worked on every hit (offhand/multi attacks), they would be much better. -
07-15-2016, 09:20 AMThorvaI am beginning to think you are just trying to argue for the sake of arguing. I understand what you are saying, I have understood what you are saying, I have made a thread based off the same concept, I have tried to introduce ideas that this would work. All the ideas I have stated as well as you have built on I.E. The % based blind, are all ways to make 135 set ups work in the 145 content. Ways to mitigate the dmg, ways to bring in useful rdm debuffs, ways to increase dmg for melee while melee are still wearing -dt gear, ways for melee and rdm to be invited in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Again, you still disagree temper should be cast on party/ally, that is your opinion maybe the opinion of a few other people, as a whole I think more people would actually want to be able to cast it on others. Making temper II double attack and able to target on party members is a very solid idea that would call for rdm invites. Period, there is no way around that. People would want rdm in melee groups for that reason alone. Rdm using temper II (triple attack) on self with aeonic/emp +269 skill will never close the gap between rdm and other DD options. Rdm lacks entirely too much attack to be worthwhile in 145 content. How do I know this, well fully buffed both my rdm and my drk can melee at a 90% acc rate on t3 reisenjima. Rdm however can't deal enough solid dmg to be considered taking as a melee slot. That spell is essentially useless on rdm for anything in 145+ range. More than half the time a solid top tier rdm won't have enough attack in tp/ws sets to be remotely close to considered taking as a melee slot in 135 content. This again makes temper 1 and 2 worthless for a rdm in 135 content. Dropping down to a vagary lowest possible level run, a rdm decked out, with temper 1/2 will still never be a melee in that scenario. Occasionally you might go in to incursion as a melee rdm, and a melee rdm on a 124 incursion is still so pathetically weak compared to other melee jobs, it is better to dual wield max malevolence and just t5 single target nuke in most content outside exp pt.
Literally the only way for rdm to "close the gap with temper" would be to put rdm on gear made for war and drk to compensate for the lack of innate attack. So, I repeat, the next best option is to simply make temper a spell you can target party with to increase the desire for rdm.
Melee rdm, is not remotely close to comparable, with 51%+ triple attack gear/temper it will never close a solid gap. Putting yourself in that much triple attack gear severely nerfs rdm own acc options. So now you are down to a top end enhance temper potency, let's throw out a massive 30% from temper, the rest of rdm gear is dual wield and acc to even touch anything in 135. 30% triple attack on rdm with the current melee gear options as well as the lack of natural attack on rdm using +269 aeonic/empy weapons. (Since savage blade and cdc heavily benefit from TP bonus and the +50 dex of almace) You would be lucky to come within 500 dps of a mid tier blu in the same lvl of content. Highly unlikely rdm will even get that close considering I have seen mid-tier blu putting out 2k+ dps, top tier DD pulling way ahead of that, underbuffed situations on drk I have been in the 2k+ range while in -dt hybrid sets.
RDM CAN NOT, AND WILL NOT, EVER CLOSE THE GAP JUST BECAUSE IT HAS TEMPER!
Just isn't possible, rdm is a jack of all, it doesn't come close. Even running MB off sc, a rdm will not be able to compete as a DD slot, this delusion of thinking making temper able to be cast on others will magically take away from the melee rdm is capable of now just isn't mathematically possible, it doesn't change rdm in 135 content, it doesn't change rdm in 145 content. Even if we got super buffed so that melee rdm could wear teaon or we got thrown on herc gear, a rdm would never be able to deal enough dmg on 145 content in the time allotted. It can help, it can set up sc for jobs that have the gear and the innate attack, but this selfish "don't give away my temper to other jobs" just isn't logical thinking. That is saying, "No, I don't want to be a team player and make fights easier/faster because I want to have a great spell all to myself when I can't deal enough dmg to make a real difference."
More than 90% of the time a rdm is melee is either solo or for apex, nobody says, "hey we are going to do Sovereign Behemoth, Sarama or Vagary lets get a rdm melee because how great that temper II is on rdm." I am willing to bet you would get to melee if you could cast that spell on other people, you would already in the party, you have a decent melee set (I assume) other DD would greatly benefit from the spell add it all up and you will be there swinging a sword in battles you can't go as melee now.
Rdm is NOT using the spell in 135 content, rdm is NOT using the spell in 145 content. Why not make it so the spell is getting used.
Barspells, someone was stating well they don't need a buff because they are self target.... Well they are also accession-able and rdm still has the highest enhancing magic skill as well as the best enhancing magic gear. There is zero reason why whm can get higher barspell than rdm except the fact SE just plain hasn't thought things through.
The use of new spells already in .dat files, SE already stating new spells because they didn't have the resources for the creation of the animation. The spells are already in the system and have the animation. It would take less time to make codes for the spells than to make these stupid mounts and the quest lines to unlock them.
Haste II does not need to be buffed, rdm does not need haste 3. Haste 2 is at 30% already, the only haste that can beat it is Dunna or Idris geo. (And I won't go on my rant as to why I think geo needs to be nerfed, but that haste absolutely needs to be nerfed, heck I was mad when SE gave blu effatic flutter and smn Hastega II at the same potency) Magic haste cap is 43.75%, max haste between gear/ja/magic is 80%, Haste III or boosted Haste II would be broken, Drk would only need 12.25% haste in gear with LR up, that makes a massive gain in gear considering you can get that off a belt alone. There are so many ways gear can be altered. I know, I have gearsets that drop in haste based on my buffs, if I am magic capped and LR is down I still only need 17.25% haste in gear when I use apoc.
Higher levels of buffs for the buffs we already have only make other jobs obsolete. This is the very reason I have been trying to come up with simple unique ideas for rdm specifically that are not shared with other jobs so that people have a reason to invite a rdm. Some of these very ideas would also allow the opportunity to bring back jobs like brd and melee DD.
We don't need more haste, we need the haste jobs have to be reigned in, reign in the haste and you force the need for more jobs.
(I felt the same way when I saw smite being given to drk, we didn't need smite, we needed acc and something to mitigate the AoE in 145+, especially now I am starting to see drk all over the place, I get messages on ffxiah and in game all day long about gear choices)
Esnpell on rdm I think should be on par with enlight/endark, there is no reason a rdm (the ones that first had enspell) can't be hitting 150-200 dmg enspell. (That would close the gap way more than temper) Now I realize stacking all the gear possible can get rdm above 150, but that means you have to keep that gear on. Enspell should be based off the cast on rdm as it is on drk and pld, I believe that was mentioned several times.
Rdm getting innate dual wield. I am on the fence about this, pld and rdm have similarities when it comes to melee, so many times I often look at one or the other in terms of keeping my mind on the balance. Both jobs seem to be sword and shield and is visibly seen with rdm access to beatific shield. I, as a rdm, would love to have innate dual wield, but I think it starts tipping the balance, especially if they recode enspells for more dmg, or added effects like we mentioned on page one of this thread. Although something like avatar favor on rdm enspells would be kinda nice, self buff only,
Enfire II; Triple attack (this being triple attack would counter the complaint of temper II becoming target-able double attack instead of self triple attack)
Enblizzard II; Increase MaB bonus
Enaero II; Increases both m. eva and physical eva, (both of them since rdm doesn't get a fenrir like enspell)
Enstone II; Increase def
Enthunder II; Increased critical hit dmg/chance
Enwater II; Increase magic accuracy or magic defense (I would personally prefer m. def)
All of the Enspell potency would work on a sliding scale based off Enhancing Magic Skill AT THE TIME OF THE CAST not something that diminishes the moment you change gear and not that decay crap either. Can use the current enspell 1 damage scale, lower dmg per hit, but works on multi-hit. -
07-15-2016, 09:39 AMHyrist
@Rydal
1. If we were to make this the calculation, it might be feasible, but the spell itself wouldn't really be enough of an improvement to justify its use in an offensive support aspect, especially if it is being single-cast. This also doesn't work in practice in our existing mechanics. Phalanx 2 Works on time of cast on target based off the caster's Enhancing. This would be the coding formula they would likely have to copy in order to change its function. If you're wanting it to calculate the way you want it to here without re-designing the current coding, you'd skip the party/alliance target aspect and just make the spell Accession-able - that's the way it would work as you intend. (That's the way it functions with Accession Enspells.) Which, honestly, I think I'd be ok with at that point, especially as we kinda lack in truly powerful spells to Accession.
2. We don't need Haste III. And we can Balance Haste II's percentage caps magic haste if we tie it's bonuses to Gifts. We pretty much don't get much of relevance past 1200. We could probably squeeze in something like Haste Effect bonuses there without harming anything balance wise. Just cause we were given a limit does not mean we can't work within it. As far as any arguments to the effect of cap haste on one job is broken, I'm just going to point at any other support job and go "What do they offer offensively besides haste?" And buff it if needed. We're not invalidating any jobs, we are, in fact, enabling them to use other buffs, improving the overall dynamic.
3. Enspell II's giving a large accuracy bonus would be thematically correct with Red Mage's Accuracy emphasis in Composure, allowing us to possibly gear more Attack in. So between that and Gear fixes, we could make our Melee more effective in the 145 game. We also have to keep in mind that level difference calculations are being assessed so that may also help things. I do agree that Enspell IIs should function as enhanced versions of Enspell I's. They were originally designed to work as a gap filler for the pre 75 leveling climb, but it was implemented way too late to be effective. It can be safely repourposed now, especially as it's supposed to be a higher tier of Enspell I's and simply don't function that way.'
Edit: Thorva's just on ignore. I'm tired of correcting every single misinterpretation they stumble over. And the ego is overbearing. "It's, just your opinion, man." works both ways. -
07-15-2016, 09:52 AMThorvaFine by me, you obviously lack any knowledge of how 145+ content works and think that a few minor changes would allow rdm to go melee in 145 content. There is literally no way rdm can melee in 145 content even if you nerfed all the 145 content down to 135 content. Nobody would take a rdm, you are delusional. Tired of debating with your emotions, lack of ability to see things as a whole, and no concept of balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
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07-17-2016, 07:34 AMJakuktbh I think most the jobs merits need to be adjusted, for RDM I was thinking along the lines of something similar to, based on the second 2-hour being changed:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
GROUP I
Magic Accuracy
Increases Magic Accuracy by 3 per level.
Convert Recast
-30 seconds Per level
Augments Composure Effect
Grants +10% chance of spells cast under Composure resisting Dispel effects per level. (Self and Party cast)
Enhancing Magic Duration
Increases duration of enhancing spells cast on self or party by 3% per level.
Enfeebling Magic potency
Increases potency of enfeebling magic cast by 2% per level.
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GROUP II
Faith (JA)
Recast 5:00 / Duration 30:00
Improves users affinity with the magical arts.
Grants: Magic Accuracy +3%, Magic Attack Bonus +3%, Fast Cast +4%, Spell Duration: 5% / Magic Accuracy +15%, Magic Attack Bonus +15%, Fast Cast +20%, Spell Duration: 25%
Reduces: Accuracy - 1%, Attack -1%, Combat Haste -1% / Accuracy -5%, Attack -5%, Combat Haste -5%
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Bravery (JA)
Recast 5:00 / Duration 30:00
Improves users combat affinity.
Grants: Accuracy +2%, Attack +3%, Combat Haste: 2% / Accuracy: 10%, Attack: +15%, Combat Haste: 10%
Reduces: Magic Accuracy -2%, Magic Attack Bonus - 1%, Fast Cast -1% / Magic Accuracy - 10%, Magic Attack Bonus -5%, Fast Cast -5%
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Enhancer's Gift (JA)
Recast 2:00 / Duration: 1:00 or spell cast
Allows self-cast spells to target a party member.
(Spells potency will be based only on the casters skill, equipment will not be counted)
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Enfeebler's Might (JA)
Recast 3:00 / Duration: 1:00 or spell cast
Greatly increases potency and accuracy of the next enfeebling spell cast.
(Increases Magic Accuracy and Potency +100% of the next enfeebling spell cast.)
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Might be too much, but maybe similar.
I think their shield level means they were really not intended for shields and it was just something they gave to fit the "semi-decent but not masters of combat", Beatific Shield was more an exception to the crap shields they were usually placed on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorva
That said I don't know if I'd give them straight dual wield though, maybe due to their dagger and sword skill being the same, maybe something like a Fencer uses in a Sword and Parrying Dagger, could balance it by putting some defensive stats/magical buffs on the dagger and dmg on the sword.
Something like:
Fencers Stance (job trait)
Allows you to equip a sword and a dagger.
Then you could add Daggers like:
Fencing Dagger
Def:30 DMG:95 Delay:183
DEX +19 AGI +19 STR +19 VIT +19 HP+50
Dagger Skill +242 Damage Taken -2% Parrying Chance +5%
Spell Interruption Rate -5%
Level 99 RDM -
07-20-2016, 10:26 PMRydalI completely agree with everything in Group 1, except maybe Composure. My main issue with Group 2 is that new JA's (I think) are in the same group as new spells, they can't make new animations. I think making most of those Job traits would make them more implementable. Another thing is that I don't really like that we have to choose between melee and nuking when using Bravery and Faith. The point of RDM is to be able to switch between different fighting styles without missing a beat. Having a JA that reduces one of our skills for another is going against our job's main drawing point. They should just boost stats and not reduce any. The JA that let's us use a self cast enhancing spell on anyone is a great idea. But for the last two JA's, what would the ranks do if I merited them past 1? They sound more like normal level up JA's rather than merited ones. Very neat ideas though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakuk
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07-21-2016, 12:05 AMJakukI made them JA's simply because they don't really need to have unique animations, they can just reuse one, that and Faith / Bravery already have animations that exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydal
As for Faith and Bravery, the two have always existed as a buff to one side while weakening another.
And yeah, I forgot about the merit level effects.
Maybe:
Enhancers Gift > Grants a chance of augmentation happening. +4% chance per additional level. (16% at 5/5)
(Augmentation increases potency of cast buff by 50%)
(Or just extend the duration 10% per level)
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Enfeebler's Might > Increases Duration +20% per additional level. -
07-21-2016, 02:20 AMRydalReference for both statements? I've never seen Bravery/Faith in this game. And in every other FF game, they never reduce another stat. They simply raise atk or magic. Even if they were like that, it still makes us choose between melee or magic or cripple one in favor of another which goes against RDM being able to switch roles at a moment's notice. They should just boost stats. Maybe a simple, stackable JA similar to Swordplay. They give modest stat boosts that increase in potency over time to a cap until we get hit with severe damage or an attack misses or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakuk
Interesting idea. A little extreme with the numbers but makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakuk
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07-21-2016, 04:25 AMJakukIm pretty sure it was located in the Dat files ages ago, I believe along with Reflect, though I can't seem to find the video anywhere anymore, I suppose it's possible it was already reused as a different spell, was a LONG time ago I saw it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydal
You are actually right about Faith and Bravery, it only increased, no idea where I got the negative from.
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Yeah, balancing would be SE's area.