Fairness (Warning: rant ahead)

So I've been playing since '08, but I have NEVER seen such a thing as these leaders for "Even Linkshells" who are unreasonable, impolite, egotistical ***holes. My anger stems from how poorly I've seen good, honest people get talked like trash by a person with a big flashy shell and they were only linkpearls. I can name off quite a few from my trips across Phoenix and Ragnarok, Demon will know a few of them.

My point is: why do people allow these jerks to behave this way? Just on my time on Ragnarok I've dismantled a linkshell by getting the lower members to leave (truly they should have, because the sack holders and the shell were never contributing to helping the lower players catch up, and I've been booted several times before my friend daringly gave me a new pearl to encourage them to leave the linkshell. Needless to say I might be leaving Ragnarok once my world transfer becomes available again (Oh wait I'm just going to XIV^.^)

So we come down to the prime question: Would you rather be in a linkshell that does events time to time and has a friendly atmosphere but not as active as an event shell, OR join one that is more dedicated to events -but- you have to play a job you don't want to play, deal with someone talking down to you for not making it to an event based on real life commitments (I've ran into many people like this)

Sadly, there are servers that are more "hardcore" than others. As such, they are filled with players the like you have experienced.

Ragnarok is one of those servers. Asura is another.

theres a MASSIVE difference between being 'hardcore' and being a complete and total ASS

I've dealt with this situation before. A lot of times, the lower tier members fear leaving because they don't want to be alone in this game that you have to rely on people so much to get things done. Being in a linkshell facilitates getting parties done faster, getting content done faster, and is generally more reliable than shout parties. So, a lot of them take all the shit that's flung their way to assure their own progression.

Back in my heyday (I sound like an old gal here XD), a lot of this kind of downtalk was rampant, but people kept shut because they wanted to play, do endgame events, get gear. For the most part, it was fun as long as you ignored the elitist crap-talkin' guy foaming at the mouth because you didn't WS Tiamat fast enough.

Now that the game dynamic has changed, its hard to justify this kind of talk anymore. The community needs each other now more than ever. The last thing leaders need to be doing is putting their linkshell members down and causing needless drama.

I can relate, some shells won't even take you unless you already have awesome gear to begin with or you don't play on PC or whatever. Hello?!? I don't do things because I have good gear, I do them because I don't have good gear!

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

I can relate, some shells won't even take you unless you already have awesome gear to begin with or you don't play on PC or whatever. Hello?!? I don't do things because I have good gear, I do them because I don't have good gear!

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What are you talking about. Don't you know you cannot do delve without delve gear??? I mean come on you are going to show up in af3+2 or nni or salvage 2 gear with a 90-99 empy and whats that......an Epona ring? What are you thinking?

ok sarcasm aside lol I can feel your pain, I have a all the gear I mentioned above and I STILL do not have any adoulin KI because I'm not geared well enough to participate. Even my whm and rdm with top notch pre-SoA gear sets and capped skill is being lol'd out of seekers pts. Even pugs are getting fickle. Really good timing on a shiney new game to play :D

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Originally Posted by Mostfowl

I have a all the gear I mentioned above and I STILL do not have any adoulin KI because I'm not geared well enough to participate. Even my whm and rdm with top notch pre-SoA gear sets and capped skill is being lol'd out of seekers pts. Even pugs are getting fickle. Really good timing on a shiney new game to play :D

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That's not acceptable behavior. It be one thing if one showed up in level 1 racial gear, no sub-job unlocked, and a runic gear but come on! I just returned from a three month absence I didn't even want to take to do a new event, wearing gear that's considered acceptable by most standards, in a new expansion, neither of which of been out for that long. I think it would be more unusual to have the gear than not have it.

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Originally Posted by Mostfowl

What are you talking about. Don't you know you cannot do delve without delve gear??? I mean come on you are going to show up in af3+2 or nni or salvage 2 gear with a 90-99 empy and whats that......an Epona ring? What are you thinking?

ok sarcasm aside lol I can feel your pain, I have a all the gear I mentioned above and I STILL do not have any adoulin KI because I'm not geared well enough to participate. Even my whm and rdm with top notch pre-SoA gear sets and capped skill is being lol'd out of seekers pts. Even pugs are getting fickle. Really good timing on a shiney new game to play :D

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In my opinion, networking is the key. Getting to know people during exp parties etc. asking friends if you can join their delve party works. On our server though I've joined a delve Linkshell and what we usually do is get LS friends invited first. After that left over room is for anyone, but most of the time one of the LS mates will suggest a friend. There's absolutely no reason you can't join a Ki party if you have REM.

Our LS Leaders are so nice, they even announce in party before we start and after the run that anyone wanting to join our LS is free to do so.


Check out my guide "Invitation to Plasm Farming" :)

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Originally Posted by Doctrine

theres a MASSIVE difference between being 'hardcore' and being a complete and total ASS

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Your name.. It seems familiar, I think I remember you from Quetzal's LS(Can't remember LS name)!

"(Oh wait I'm just going to XIV^.^)"

Then why do you care, sounds like bad player.

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Originally Posted by Draylo

"(Oh wait I'm just going to XIV^.^)"

Then why do you care, sounds like bad player.

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Here is why I care: before I went to South Carolina for vacation, I had the misfortune to watch my best friend get picked apart because he was trying to tell his 'leader' that the lower tier members were needing some help bad. Every night it was soa soa soa and then dyna dyna dyna (here's the thing: the LS I'm in wont let you lot stuff for a whole month due to a probationary period) tell me is that fair? You bust your ass just like everyone else in that linkshell, you're new but you've learned the ropes rather fast. But then when your relic armor shows up the leader goes "Uh don't lot on that, this such and such needs it and you're not allowed to lot" Why the F**K would ANYONE put up with that? That's not fair to people who hit the ground running yet they don't get anything for their time.

If you want to call me a bad player, why not look at yourself because I'm pretty sure I remember you when I started on Leviathan as Dolphis.

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Originally Posted by Anjou

(here's the thing: the LS I'm in wont let you lot stuff for a whole month due to a probationary period) tell me is that fair? You bust your ass just like everyone else in that linkshell, you're new but you've learned the ropes rather fast. But then when your relic armor shows up the leader goes "Uh don't lot on that, this such and such needs it and you're not allowed to lot" Why the F**K would ANYONE put up with that? That's not fair to people who hit the ground running yet they don't get anything for their time.

If you want to call me a bad player, why not look at yourself because I'm pretty sure I remember you when I started on Leviathan as Dolphis.

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Well tbh if a standing member of a ls who has been working with that group has a piece of gear fall which they need it is perfectly fair for a ls lead to say no you cannot have it. If you do let new members take gear they need before a long time member that...

A: really isn't fair to the person who has been busting their butt on multiple runs and other events for that ls which does not induce loyalty to that ls and
B: new members come and go frequently and most ls are not gear dropping factories for ppl who may drop your pearl a day or two later or only help the ls when its convenient for themselves only.

As a leader of an old dyna ls I can tell you, you need to gear your long time ppl first because most new comers to the group do not stay long if their needs are not immediately tended to which is not fair to long term members who have been helping the ls as a whole for a long time and not just one or a handful of events. It's only a select few who understand that ppl cannot drop everything on a dime to rush out to help them farm a key or a nm and its only the ppl who do understand that stay. Newbs to the group should be ok to lot something that will hit the ground otherwise but aside from that I see no problems with old members taking priority. Heck we used to farm dyna twice a week for months just to get ONE person a relic weapon! And no one complained. Talk about old school commitment.

Whats not FAIR as you put it, is ppl who join a ls, get their 2-3 pieces of gear in a couple runs then drop the pearl because they are done farming that particular event. The game is about cooperation but if you ever run your own ls you will understand why these rules exist because if you do not have them you will be walked all over by ppl you will never see again and that one great piece of gear you need will elude you forever because ppl will out lot you and run off with it. These rules are not an elitest or snob thing, its a practical thing.

You will find these rules in xiv as well so if you are not thrilled with them...well... good luck lol

My Girlfriend showed me this thread, and shes talking about making a LS to help people, new and older players will be welcomed, it is sad to see this kind of behavior by "Leaders" (leaders being used losely), this morning I saw a guy doing /yells for a Delv while I was in Jeuno, his yells were indicating his alliance was going from 17/18 down to 14/18, then one guy asked why it was fluctuating between 14/18 and 17/18, response "They didn't have the right type of gear/job" the guy wanted the names of people he kept booting then ended up saying "All those (Don't remember name) booted send me a /tell" about 2 1/2 - 3 hours later he said "were done with what we needed and your still looking?" I laughed.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

In my opinion, networking is the key. Getting to know people during exp parties etc. asking friends if you can join their delve party works. On our server though I've joined a delve Linkshell and what we usually do is get LS friends invited first. After that left over room is for anyone, but most of the time one of the LS mates will suggest a friend. There's absolutely no reason you can't join a Ki party if you have REM.

Our LS Leaders are so nice, they even announce in party before we start and after the run that anyone wanting to join our LS is free to do so.

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Really Ultimas? That is nice for you but for me all my friends have left me behind and not even bothered to ask me if I want to do Skirmish, farm plasm, or do delves so guess what? I haven't did any of that and as I watch who is doing all these things I am deleting them off my friend list. If that is friends I don't need any! Thank you. I am a loner and have struggled in this game to get where I am. I am disgusted how this expansion has brought out the shitty character of people. I come from a very different generation than 98% of people in this game. I have only found 4 people older than me. The more I read these forums and the more I see who is doing what in the game the less I play or even have the heart to log on. I am almost done with this game. I feel screwed myself I don't know what others feel but I don't see much laughter and fun anymore. Doing anything in the game is a pain. I for one don't care to jump in an alliance with 17 people I don't know and if I did and an ass said something to me rude I would chew them up and spit them out. This game has a way of exposing people's character and I see people throwing friends away for a damn game. /sigh

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Originally Posted by Mostfowl

Well tbh if a standing member of a ls who has been working with that group has a piece of gear fall which they need it is perfectly fair for a ls lead to say no you cannot have it. If you do let new members take gear they need before a long time member that...

A: really isn't fair to the person who has been busting their butt on multiple runs and other events for that ls which does not induce loyalty to that ls and
B: new members come and go frequently and most ls are not gear dropping factories for ppl who may drop your pearl a day or two later or only help the ls when its convenient for themselves only.

As a leader of an old dyna ls I can tell you, you need to gear your long time ppl first because most new comers to the group do not stay long if their needs are not immediately tended to which is not fair to long term members who have been helping the ls as a whole for a long time and not just one or a handful of events. It's only a select few who understand that ppl cannot drop everything on a dime to rush out to help them farm a key or a nm and its only the ppl who do understand that stay. Newbs to the group should be ok to lot something that will hit the ground otherwise but aside from that I see no problems with old members taking priority. Heck we used to farm dyna twice a week for months just to get ONE person a relic weapon! And no one complained. Talk about old school commitment.

Whats not FAIR as you put it, is ppl who join a ls, get their 2-3 pieces of gear in a couple runs then drop the pearl because they are done farming that particular event. The game is about cooperation but if you ever run your own ls you will understand why these rules exist because if you do not have them you will be walked all over by ppl you will never see again and that one great piece of gear you need will elude you forever because ppl will out lot you and run off with it. These rules are not an elitest or snob thing, its a practical thing.

You will find these rules in xiv as well so if you are not thrilled with them...well... good luck lol

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The. Here let me also cite this:

My Blue Mage on Dolphis is lvl 99, I go into dyna beaucedine in that linkshell, we kill and kill, and the. A Mirage body drops. Now obviously I asked if I could lot on it, but due to that probation period a sack holder who 'needed' it stole it from me. I go Ito gusgen the next day, his blue mage is only lvl 15. So tell me Mist, is that fair?

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Originally Posted by Anjou

The. Here let me also cite this:

My Blue Mage on Dolphis is lvl 99, I go into dyna beaucedine in that linkshell, we kill and kill, and the. A Mirage body drops. Now obviously I asked if I could lot on it, but due to that probation period a sack holder who 'needed' it stole it from me. I go Ito gusgen the next day, his blue mage is only lvl 15. So tell me Mist, is that fair?

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Problems like this will work themselves out, you agreed to those rules when you joined the LS, but it was a prick move on behalf of the other guy, way to make new people feel welcome. As the numbers in this game continue to drop, there will be fewer shells, so they will think they can have rules like this because people have no other choice, but in the end, players like that will just drive others away. So the shell drives away people, like they have in the past, but now there isn't enough people to replace them.

I honestly don't deal with people like that or play with them. If I know them I try to avoid them completely. I'm not going to be someone's (insert bad word here). Sometimes I will say something to them, (you just got to put some people in their place) other times I will let it go as to not cause drama.

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Originally Posted by BST

Your name.. It seems familiar, I think I remember you from Quetzal's LS(Can't remember LS name)!

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stars of destiny or something like that I think

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Originally Posted by Anjou

The. Here let me also cite this:

My Blue Mage on Dolphis is lvl 99, I go into dyna beaucedine in that linkshell, we kill and kill, and the. A Mirage body drops. Now obviously I asked if I could lot on it, but due to that probation period a sack holder who 'needed' it stole it from me. I go Ito gusgen the next day, his blue mage is only lvl 15. So tell me Mist, is that fair?

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You want to know what this says? It says that the sackholder was waiting for that body to drop before leveling blu. Probably because the intention was to lvl to 30, cleave leech to 75 or so and then join a merit party and level/skillup to Empyrean or straight 99. So yeah, that leader wasn't just being a jerk. I'm also curious what job Dolphis went into that run as.

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Originally Posted by Anjou

So we come down to the prime question: Would you rather be in a linkshell that does events time to time and has a friendly atmosphere but not as active as an event shell, OR join one that is more dedicated to events -but- you have to play a job you don't want to play, deal with someone talking down to you for not making it to an event based on real life commitments (I've ran into many people like this)

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I like to believe I am one of the best RDMs around yet sit in a mostly social LS because I try to avoid the type of BS I get in more strict event shells, which is part of why I am left so behind on my goals. I don't regret my choice really, I joined a EGLS for about 2 months, going to everything on SCH and getting complained at for stupid things did not fit me to well.

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Originally Posted by Aarahs

You want to know what this says? It says that the sackholder was waiting for that body to drop before leveling blu. So yeah, that leader wasn't just being a jerk.

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I'm sorry, I don't care if you have a 99 Almace with the best gear waiting for you when you finish leveling, if person A has BLU leveled up, and person B has it at 1 because they don't have the Relic body yet, the person with the job leveled is getting the body in my shell. Why? They play the job, the other obviously doesn't if they are at level 1, or 15, or really anything under 90, so I would not really do it like that, what I would do is simply ask "Does anyone have BLU 90+ who needs that? No? Ok, take it." Simple as that, and everyone is happy, if my sack holder wants to whine about not getting a body for a job they obviously don't play, they wouldn't be a sack for very long.

I remember the last Dynashell I was in, I had got all the BLU relic pieces on free lot despite being in a probationary period at that time. Why? I was the only BLU in the shell. That is fair. Giving lot rights to someone who only has BLU at level 30 and probably doesn't care about the job but just wants to complete their collection over someone that comes to the event as the job in question is beyond unfair and rude, and I would chuck my pearl over that.

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

I remember the last Dynashell I was in, I had got all the BLU relic pieces on free lot despite being in a probationary period at that time. Why? I was the only BLU in the shell. That is fair. Giving lot rights to someone who only has BLU at level 30 and probably doesn't care about the job but just wants to complete their collection over someone that comes to the event as the job in question is beyond unfair and rude, and I would chuck my pearl over that.

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I was 2nd thief in a shell that did dynamis and the hands dropped and my long time friend the ls leader knew i needed them but told no one to lot that rdm drops were to go to one certain person and thief drops to another person. I froze and didn't move til dynamis was over and then warped out and dumped the shell. I had been friends with this person a long time and he knew I needed the hands. This was the second time he had did me wrong and the last. The hands went to a person that wanted them so they could store the set and the next day was the update and we got the porter moogle. To this day I don't speak to this person and his ls isn't that great anymore.

It's up to you and you alone. If you dont like the shell's policy (probational period, no helping in other stuff, etc), then dont join them. The problem and the reason why some people would put up with that is they feel it is the only way that they can get things done. Which is unfortunate. The fact of the matter is that a single leader alone cannot get anything done, it does require a collection of good players to achieve anything in this game. This is why so many people prefer either solo play or small group play.

this is what happens when the jobs are horribly unbalanced and alternative strategies aren't supported or attempted, ex: we need "perfect stuns" else we fail.

the developers are to blame for this with the "top players" remark... the damage is done.

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Originally Posted by Powder

Really Ultimas? That is nice for you but for me all my friends have left me behind and not even bothered to ask me if I want to do Skirmish, farm plasm, or do delves so guess what? I haven't did any of that and as I watch who is doing all these things I am deleting them off my friend list. If that is friends I don't need any! Thank you. I am a loner and have struggled in this game to get where I am. I am disgusted how this expansion has brought out the shitty character of people. I come from a very different generation than 98% of people in this game. I have only found 4 people older than me. The more I read these forums and the more I see who is doing what in the game the less I play or even have the heart to log on. I am almost done with this game. I feel screwed myself I don't know what others feel but I don't see much laughter and fun anymore. Doing anything in the game is a pain. I for one don't care to jump in an alliance with 17 people I don't know and if I did and an ass said something to me rude I would chew them up and spit them out. This game has a way of exposing people's character and I see people throwing friends away for a damn game. /sigh

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Well for one with that kind of attitude, how can anyone expect to get anywhere? 2nd your problem like many others is that you are "Waiting" for people to ask you. So again I offered a solution by suggesting that you read my guide on Networking in my post titled "Invitation to Plasm farming"

You might wanna analyze how many times you've said the letter "I" in no means is this intended on criticizing you but many people tend to make more arguments about how they feel rather than look at things from other people's point of view.

I know you in game powder and I like you a lot but its far too easy to be negative over a million things but staying positive actually requires work.

Saving you a million headaches if you choose to stay positive and overcome your disappointments. There's too many people here too busy focused on themselves from trying to get things they need done without analyzing certain points as to why they are overlooking basic social skills.

If you read my guide I'm sure it's enough to shed some points on how you can get around the game better.

By the way you know I'm online often and we've had so much fun in WoE together. You can always ask me to do other stuff with you.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Well for one with that kind of attitude, how can anyone expect to get anywhere? 2nd your problem like many others is that you are "Waiting" for people to ask you. So again I offered a solution by suggesting that you read my guide on Networking in my post titled "Invitation to Plasm farming"

You might wanna analyze how many times you've said the letter "I" in no means is this intended on criticizing you but many people tend to make more arguments about how they feel rather than look at things from other people's point of view.

I know you in game powder and I like you a lot but its far too easy to be negative over a million things but staying positive actually requires work.

Saving you a million headaches if you choose to stay positive and overcome your disappointments. There's too many people here too busy focused on themselves from trying to get things they need done without analyzing certain points as to why they are overlooking basic social skills.

If you read my guide I'm sure it's enough to shed some points on how you can get around the game better.

By the way you know I'm online often and we've had so much fun in WoE together. You can always ask me to do other stuff with you.

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I am realistic I see what I see and i call it self centered, self absorbed. You don't know me well or you would know I help people I don't waste people's times asking for help. I post to speak for I so wth you think I am gonna say we, they, he, she? If you tip toe through the tulips that is your choice I see the reality of like what you said "what people are focused on.....themselves.

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

I remember the last Dynashell I was in, I had got all the BLU relic pieces on free lot despite being in a probationary period at that time. Why? I was the only BLU in the shell. That is fair. Giving lot rights to someone who only has BLU at level 30 and probably doesn't care about the job but just wants to complete their collection over someone that comes to the event as the job in question is beyond unfair and rude, and I would chuck my pearl over that.

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So I did that: I tossed my pearl, and I'm starting my own up. In a nutshell it's centered around what jobs you have and what you need for them. I won't waste time trying to do the big end game stuff, I'd rather do stuff I know we can smash to pieces and get people armor (relic) and of course cash in their pockets (currency)

Now more or less its based on a "Reap what you sow" sort of deal, if you come to the events then we'll do our best to farm you the relic pieces you -need-. We have waiting lists but we have to first confirm that people have the jobs at the appropriate levels.

Anyone with their jobs 70+ can lot on relic pieces (since they can still wear the base relics until they get them +'d) but it also gets rid of the possibility that people lot just to collect (as I am now 5/5 on BLU/PLD no thanks to that one ls).

Also tell me if this sounds favorable: We do Einherjar, Nyzul, Assault, and of course we get people's bosses/cats but the weekend before that we all take a vote on what we want to do, that way there's no priority and the majority is happy (and we work in the minority so they can get their stuff done, and if their stuff hasn't passed sometimes the vote'll get overruled if they've been waiting forever.

Sound fair enough?

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Originally Posted by Powder

I am realistic I see what I see and i call it self centered, self absorbed. You don't know me well or you would know I help people I don't waste people's times asking for help. I post to speak for I so wth you think I am gonna say we, they, he, she? If you tip toe through the tulips that is your choice I see the reality of like what you said "what people are focused on.....themselves.

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As do I when it comes to helping others. And I don't waste other people's time either but you should know by now that I'm not self adsorbed or self centered >.>

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Originally Posted by Anjou

The. Here let me also cite this:

My Blue Mage on Dolphis is lvl 99, I go into dyna beaucedine in that linkshell, we kill and kill, and the. A Mirage body drops. Now obviously I asked if I could lot on it, but due to that probation period a sack holder who 'needed' it stole it from me. I go Ito gusgen the next day, his blue mage is only lvl 15. So tell me Mist, is that fair?

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Well no that is not fair but you did not include that part of it either. I do stand by my post, the only difference is no one in my ls prioritized gear for a job they did not already have maxed. That was one of our rules and our core group were cool with it. The ones that were not and tried a ninja lot or refused to pass simply got a d2, a broken pearl and a blist.

And honestly you would likely have /ragequit my ls too simply because we would not have catered to your every whim the moment you joined which is what your posts make it sound like you are looking for. We did have a "help a newb" thing were we always had 1-2 players we would help with missions and what not but they had to be patient. If they asked for help they got it, but rarely that very moment and sometimes not even that same day. Regardless we got them through missions and whatever drops they needed in a timely manner. It just took a little patience on their part.

Also whats all the fuss about dyna drops? It rains relic in dyna now. Back in the day we could run a zone 10 times and never see one drop of the piece we need (10 runs back then was 5 WEEKS worth of trying too btw). Nowadays I solo dyna (on pup mind you so no th) and its rare I don't see at least 1of every piece drop in my 2 hrs.

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Originally Posted by Powder

Really Ultimas? That is nice for you but for me all my friends have left me behind and not even bothered to ask me if I want to do Skirmish, farm plasm, or do delves so guess what? I haven't did any of that and as I watch who is doing all these things I am deleting them off my friend list. If that is friends I don't need any! Thank you. I am a loner and have struggled in this game to get where I am. I am disgusted how this expansion has brought out the shitty character of people. I come from a very different generation than 98% of people in this game. I have only found 4 people older than me. The more I read these forums and the more I see who is doing what in the game the less I play or even have the heart to log on. I am almost done with this game. I feel screwed myself I don't know what others feel but I don't see much laughter and fun anymore. Doing anything in the game is a pain. I for one don't care to jump in an alliance with 17 people I don't know and if I did and an ass said something to me rude I would chew them up and spit them out. This game has a way of exposing people's character and I see people throwing friends away for a damn game. /sigh

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Wow you are complaining about other peoples attitudes? Really? Did you even read your own post? Oo

My first endgame LS was the one I wanted to stay with for the longest period of time, simply because I was allowed to lot for some of the good gear within one or two weeks. Not all good gear, not the best good gear, but I was constantly given *something* that was better than one of the pieces I had from before I joined. I think I got heca feet on my second sky run, for example, including the cursed item for them.

It doesn't sound like a lot today, but at the time, even buying the NQ cursed item cost like twice as much as the highest amount of gil I had ever been in possession of. I felt like I had just won the lottery, even if it was pretty cheap for the LS as a whole. Making new players feel like they're winners (even if they're just getting leftovers) makes them want to stay longer.

I think I also only had war75 at that time, no other jobs.

Yes, long time members should be taken care of, of course, because they have shown that they are consistent and reliable. However, in terms of the total power of a group, it can sometimes be better to (forgive me for using content levels now) gear 5 members up from gear level 99 to gear level 110, rather than 2 people from gear level 118 to gear level 119, especially if the time required for these two examples would be roughly the same.

I think a good shell should have a fair balance between getting "relatively easy (for a group) to get but still pretty good" gear for new players, and getting bleeding edge gear for characters that already have cutting edge gear.

If your group has three or four events a week, let one or two of them be focused on gearing up lower tier players, by doing events that are fast to clear for a good group and that delivers relatively good rewards. This will make the new players want to stay in your shell for a longer time, and also makes these new players perform better when they're later helping you to get gear for the best players.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

My first endgame LS was the one I wanted to stay with for the longest period of time, simply because I was allowed to lot for some of the good gear within one or two weeks. Not all good gear, not the best good gear, but I was constantly given *something* that was better than one of the pieces I had from before I joined. I think I got heca feet on my second sky run, for example, including the cursed item for them.

It doesn't sound like a lot today, but at the time, even buying the NQ cursed item cost like twice as much as the highest amount of gil I had ever been in possession of. I felt like I had just won the lottery, even if it was pretty cheap for the LS as a whole. Making new players feel like they're winners (even if they're just getting leftovers) makes them want to stay longer.

I think I also only had war75 at that time, no other jobs.

Yes, long time members should be taken care of, of course, because they have shown that they are consistent and reliable. However, in terms of the total power of a group, it can sometimes be better to (forgive me for using content levels now) gear 5 members up from gear level 99 to gear level 110, rather than 2 people from gear level 118 to gear level 119, especially if the time required for these two examples would be roughly the same.

I think a good shell should have a fair balance between getting "relatively easy (for a group) to get but still pretty good" gear for new players, and getting bleeding edge gear for characters that already have cutting edge gear.

If your group has three or four events a week, let one or two of them be focused on gearing up lower tier players, by doing events that are fast to clear for a good group and that delivers relatively good rewards. This will make the new players want to stay in your shell for a longer time, and also makes these new players perform better when they're later helping you to get gear for the best players.

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^ love this idea a lot.

In response to OP, if you can't find a shell that fits your style, then make one. There are likely more people on your server that are looking for the same thing.

Well, maybe.

The thing with Linkshells is its like a job in a lot of ways, Even if you don't think of it like one, It is. Its not a Guild full of NPCs, Its a bunch of real people, and in that kind of situation it either becomes a friendly circle, or a Business-Friendship Type deal.

In a lot of these cases, Those who contribute the most, or the best geared, or the most helpful, tend to earn higher positions in the linkshell, even if its not through Sackholding, but more just "Leader/Sack favorites". Unfortunately for others, even if the LS leader is reasonable, this means those who aren't the favorites will, unfortunately, be below or less favorable than those who have taken to those spots.

This is a tad unfair, but its also human nature, Everyone has friends, enemies, best friends, so forth... Its just life. That said its also up to chance rather you get a good Reasonable LS Leader, a self-serving a**, or a Sheep in Antlion's Clothing(using the FFXI versions gtfo)... Saddly I come across Sheep In Antlion's clothing more often than i come across t he other two. Leaders who appear reasonable on the outside but are really just out to serve themselves and their favorites or perceived besties before all else.

TBH those I feel are worse than the self-serving a**es. The ones who can fake liking you just enough that you question if whats happening is coincidence, in your head, or whatever... Those are the ones that really kill your enthusiasm to play. If he's an a** you can at least love to hate him and in turn actively seek another LS knowing you're in a craphole... But these types, You just don't know, and it causes hesitation, so you sit, you wait, and hope for change or reason.

Lucky for me I've managed to mostly avoid these types of leaders lately, as they seem to be a dying breed and people just don't care to fake it anymore so you get Good fair leaders, or the bad ones... If all you can find is the bad ones, Make your own... Honestly this will really help you in two ways. One, You'll learn managing a LS isn't as easy as it might seem, Managing 17+ People is difficult and you'll find you'll want to boot/avoid some of them as well because they aren't likeable, or so forth... and two, You have that chance of finding all those like-minded people to help you, and you can give them a real chance at a fair leader.

What it boils down too is, You absolutely can not let the bad, self-serving, favorite playing, True-Elitist Types bring you to the brink of quitting. Create your own shell, Help the newbies out, Build your friends and players up, and give them and yourself that shell you've wanted. It'll be hard, but I'm sure it'll be worth it for you.

We've heard people say "Vote with your wallet" when we're unhappy with a developer, but with linkshells, the more appropriate mantra is probably, "Vote with your time." If you don't like how a particular linkshell is run - how it distributes loot, how it treats new members, the attitude of the veteran members, etc. - don't join the linkshell. Joining them and helping them out is basically a vote in their column, saying "What you're doing is fine by me."

In my opinion, the worst thing you can do in this scenario is to join a shell without being 100% clear on their rules, or to protest one of the rules you don't like in the heat of the moment. As somebody who worked with a few event linkshells in the past, few things were more frustrating than somebody - usually a new member - flipping out as the five-minute treasure ticked down to zero.

If the group's leader doesn't want to explain all the rules to you clearly, if they're not following the rules that they laid into place, or if they don't seem to have any rules at all, take that into account when you're deciding whether or not to give them your time. If what they're doing is really that unacceptable, the group will eventually dissolve or, hopefully, evolve to be more accommodating to other players. In the meantime, it opens up the opportunity to start your own group, make your own rules, and figure out which system ends up being the more enjoyable.

Karbuncle I love to read your posts. You communicate so well and with good common sense and knowledge. I wished we were on the same server. This game is like a garden I weed through looking for kindred spirits. I watch how I meet people and it's never by accident I feel I meant to know them for one reason or another.