Petition to be put back on dagger

There are only 2 daggers I truthfully care about. The first is Mandau.

But we are already on Mandau. This is true, but for being on Mandau we don't really get good use out of it. When you offhand a Relic, you get absolutely nothing out of it besides it's DPS rating. Why is it that the only job that can Dual Wield Relics, RDM, doesn't get +80 attack from Excal/Mandau? Offhand Mandau with just the +40 attack at lvl 99 would be a welcome addition to RDM to make up for our attack deficiency from our B in Swords and Dagger.

The second dagger is Coruscanti. 15 DEX + 5% crit + 10% chance to cap Attack/Defense ratio. This is basically the reason why I don't finish my Almace is because we can't use this as an offhand.

Why are RDM dagger offhands so bad and why are we not on more useful daggers?

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Why are RDM dagger offhands so bad and why are we not on more useful daggers?

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It's a mystery! Just like, why does PUP have access to so much mage gear, but virtually no DD gear?

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Originally Posted by Kristal

It's a mystery! Just like, why does PUP have access to so much mage gear, but virtually no DD gear?

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This one is easy. PUP originally had a C- in H2H and was designed as a "mage" similar to BRD. Instead of songs / spells they would use JA's that would control their robot who had A rated skills and was considered much stronger. SE figured PUP would go /WHM and support from the backline while controlling their robot. That is how disconnected they were with their playbase at that time.

I had given up hope for daggers a while back, but I think SE, for at least a split second, remembered RDM could use them, when they put us on the 2nd best dagger RDM currently has access to.
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/c/cb/A...escription.png
That being said, I agree, would be nice to see us have a better access to daggers, since we broke 75 RDM forgot how to use any good daggers outside of Mandau.

There seems to be a theme with how weapons have gone since after abyssea ended and VW pick up. It's very noticeable on WAR where the job use to be on a lot more Scythe's and Great Sword's. But now, their almost on none of them. More than likely it's just funneling effect to put job's on there ideal weapon's. And to give them a advantage over another job when using them. And of course there's always balance to take into account.

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Originally Posted by tyrantsyn

There seems to be a theme with how weapons have gone since after abyssea ended and VW pick up. It's very noticeable on WAR where the job use to be on a lot more Scythe's and Great Sword's. But now, their almost on none of them. More than likely it's just funneling effect to put job's on there ideal weapon's. And to give them a advantage over another job when using them. And of course there's always balance to take into account.

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Only problem with that theory is that RDM is is equally good with both dagger and sword.

We can't be funneled out of one in favor of the other because our skill in one is just as good as in the other.

Honestly I wouldn't complain about the dagger problem at all, if they bumped up our sword to an A- or so, then it would make a bit more sense that our prominent weapon would be the sword, with a few daggers here & there, kinda like with WAR and its relationship with Great Sword. WAR can use Ragnarok, but not any ToM weapons, and its choices dropped off after 75, the same with RDM and dagger, where we can use Mandau, but after 75 our choices dropped off, and we have no access to ToM weapons.

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Originally Posted by Sunrider

Only problem with that theory is that RDM is is equally good with both dagger and sword.

We can't be funneled out of one in favor of the other because our skill in one is just as good as in the other.

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Honestly though dagger WS's kinda suck. MS @99 and Exten are ~ok~ but not that great when compared to CDC or Req.

I have thought about making Mandau to see its power vs Excalibur's, but thats far off atm anyways, sounds like it may not be worth it.

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Originally Posted by Sunrider

Only problem with that theory is that RDM is is equally good with both dagger and sword.

We can't be funneled out of one in favor of the other because our skill in one is just as good as in the other.

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Most RDM's I've ever seen have always off handed a dagger and main handed sword. Either a Excalibur, Almace, or some type of OAT/DA sword. And mind you I'm not saying RDM isn't good with a dagger, and they shouldn't be on them. But they definitely gain more from a sword than a Dagger.

With that being said a WAR can do great things with Resolution, but have been pretty much left off all sorts of new GS. You know how awesome it would be if they could use Borealis. But still we have the same case of job's being funnel towards their perspective weapons. And left off other's that they could benefit from or just enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

I have thought about making Mandau to see its power vs Excalibur's, but thats far off atm anyways, sounds like it may not be worth it.

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Mandua is great for its raw DPS, its the dagger WS selection that's rather poor.

MS is 3.0 fTP (4.0 as DW) 60% STR with a 40% damage boost @99.

Exten is 4.0 fTP (5.0 as DW) 100% AGI mod.

vs

CDC is 4.25 (5.25 as DW) 60% DEX mod critical hit WS.

Res is 5.0 fTP (6.0 as DW) 100% MND mod WS with -20% attack. As it's fTP is copied with gorget / belt your talking 6.0 fTP (7.2 as DW) which is stupidly high for any WS.

Even the 99 MS can't really keep up with those two.

Being a melee minded RDM i wholely want to be put on better daggers. Especially the ToM daggers. With the right gear choices and temper RDM can toss out some good numbers.
I use triple attack gear and that procs fairly often. Toss an Enspell 1 on there and that brings up a lot of free damage. With daggers natively low delay compared to swords we hit that much more often and our free damage enspells start really making a difference.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Honestly though dagger WS's kinda suck. MS @99 and Exten are ~ok~ but not that great when compared to CDC or Req.

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That's why I want offhand daggers, for their stats.

Either a functional Mandau giving you a ton of Attack in an offhand or a Coruscanti would be ideal for melee RDMs since they are lower delay than a sword. You get more enspell damage and/or better delay ratios for superior main hands like Almace and Excalibur.

Both daggers could give something to their main hand, which is what makes them ideal. +40 Attack/extremely high DPS or 15DEX/5% Crit/ODD-ish effect isn't anything i'd scoff at.

Wait, am I understanding this correctly? When held in the off-hand, Mandau 99 doesn't give you +40 attack?

That's correct. No relic weapon does. SE thinks it's overpowered or something.

If you offhand a Relic, its simply a high DPS weapon, nothing more.

Yup, somehow Excal + Mandau's 40 Attack was never meant to be 80 Attack for a RDM. For a small time when they increased the level cap to 95 and 99 they forgot about it, but then promptly informed us it was an error and fixed it.

You'd think if you got a Relic to 99, at least they would give you the attack off of it. By SEs normal logic, if something costs more, it's supposed to be better.

Also, as usual, this is only a RDM problem, because no one else can use more than 1 1-handed relic. SAM can use Yoichinoyumi and a Masamune to increase their bow damage with the extra STR, but RDM can't use an Almace with a Mandau to get 40 Attack that the job desperately needs.

It is not RDM exclusive. Other jobs can't mainhand different weapons and use relics in the off hand for attribute bonuses, like they would with other weapons. You make it RDM exclusive only because for RDM it applies to two relics, which is an arbitrary restriction.

Get Mandau and main hand it, evisceration is pretty badass >_>

Greetings!

While we will not be making daggers specifically for red mage, in the future when we increase the amount of weapons, we will be adding a variety of types that can be equipped by red mages. Though red mage is proficient in close range combat, they will not be receiving the same kind of daggers that can be wielded by thieves and dancers, who are the masters of this weapon.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings!

While we will not be making daggers specifically for red mage, in the future when we increase the amount of weapons, we will be adding a variety of types that can be equipped by red mages. Though red mage is proficient in close range combat, they will not be receiving the same kind of daggers that can be wielded by thieves and dancers, who are the masters of this weapon.

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Kind of like I was saying.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings!

While we will not be making daggers specifically for red mage, in the future when we increase the amount of weapons, we will be adding a variety of types that can be equipped by red mages. Though red mage is proficient in close range combat, they will not be receiving the same kind of daggers that can be wielded by thieves and dancers, who are the masters of this weapon.

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Holy sh!t they actually answered a RDM question. Thought it was kinda a low priority one.

Camate RDM is currently in no way "proficient in close range combat", too little gear / JA / JT selection. Start talking about native DW and u might get close.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

It's a mystery! Just like, why does PUP have access to so much mage gear, but virtually no DD gear?

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Because master stats vs automaton stats actually determines overload rate. Mage stats, like INT, help with suppressing Ice overload. AFAIK.

Pretty sure he just said, "Keep Working on getting your Ephemeron"

Im glad we got aluh, as long as i get an occasional dagger thrown my way, i can enjoy it, i agree we need more gear to supplement our melee outside of weapons though. What i do wonder though is if corsair and bard then will be getting shelfed with rdm when it comes to daggers. The whole "Keep casting/singing/rolling+shooting, you might poke an eye out with that!" mentality. I do enjoy when there is some bleed-over between weapon classes and jobs. I mean war and drk trading a few axes/greataxes/scythes/greatswords between eachother as long as one has an edge with their native toys is fine, i also always feel like just about every job can bring 2 or more weapons to the table, however thats not true. But it feels that way sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

Because master stats vs automaton stats actually determines overload rate. Mage stats, like INT, help with suppressing Ice overload. AFAIK.

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Pretty sure this was proven false about a year after PUP was released.

I think this was early speculation. Honestly, PUP is on all this mage gear because they originally intended Puppetmasters to be a Support role, and their Automatons would be the Fighters. The Mage Frame was for solo or Main Healing Support I assume.

So they tossed PUP on a bunch of mage gear expecting them to be like SMNs, Sub WHM, Back up cure whore, etc.

Also, RDM is on Mandau, the best dagger in the game. The idea of them not getting "Same daggers as THF/DNC" make no sense TBH. I like that THF/DNC Get exclusive/Semi-Excllusive daggers, Its just a crying shame All of them generally suck horribly, or are incredibly situation compared to Aluh Jambiya or STR Thokcha... or have such niche uses they're only worth obtaining on a casual interest.

Coruscanti is the only one with a real DD interest, and even it can fall flat. Gusterion is situationally useful, Blink lasts a criminally short time, but has a high proc rate apparently, Could be nice in Solo Dynamis. Asteria is a Ballsack of garbage, shame considering the NM that drops it.

Oxxosi Focon, Or w/e, From the Crafting is actually pretty good as a +1, But they went full retard on it and the DMG:51 stays 51 HQ or NQ, when it should be 52 on HQ... No excuse for keeping it... Thats a minor complaint, Oxxosi is great for High Evasion enemies, or hard hard content, But even it does fail to STR/Aluh in most situations.

Basically, There's a slew of daggers, Most terrible, Some good, and none of them would break RDM, and I wouldn't exactly cry fowl if they could equip them... It would just give Coruscanti a good use as an offhand to RDM's Aluh (if they dont own Mandau!)

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

Because master stats vs automaton stats actually determines overload rate. Mage stats, like INT, help with suppressing Ice overload. AFAIK.

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If that was the case, why isn't PUP on Kirin's Osode? +10 to all stats, and it is wearable by MNK/SAM/NIN. It would be a solid PUP macro piece now, and probably main gear back at 75.

But since this is a RDM forum, might be best to keep the lolpup's lament in the other forum :D

Kirin is older than PUP and FFXI has a long history of not putting new jobs on specialty gear that has already been released.

Also, the point of daggers in your offhand for RDM is to lower your total delay so your high damage main hand contributes the lion's share of your damage in a dual wield scenerio. The reason that Mandau is great and terrible at the same time is that it's delay is low. Mandau hits harder than any dagger, so being faster makes for very high DPS. The downside is that you can't really match it with another dagger of equal quality because everything else that has good stats is higher delay. Further you can't offhand a Mandau and get the attack, which is a shame, since it would probably be the best offhand in the game for RDM.

Spending the time to make a Mandau for an offhand, much less get it to 99, and then not get the attack is simply bias. Dual Wield is still viciously inferior to 2H weapons. It makes no sense for 1H jobs to not be able to offhand their Relics for an Attack boost if they choose to spend the money or time to acquire them. Once again, 2H Relics can only be main handed, because of their nature, and thus they always get the +Accuracy that is on them on top of better scaling off of stats to give them innately higher Attack. Why is it ok to make 1H Relics blatantly inferior not only in their general properties but also in their applications?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings!

While we will not be making daggers specifically for red mage, in the future when we increase the amount of weapons, we will be adding a variety of types that can be equipped by red mages. Though red mage is proficient in close range combat, they will not be receiving the same kind of daggers that can be wielded by thieves and dancers, who are the masters of this weapon.

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How are DNC's anymore better equipped than RDM at Dagger proficiency? Is it the 6 skill? If that is the case why is BRD on the daggers? I mean RDM has 10 more Skill than a BRD!.

If Skill is the merit for masters? Why is RDM enfeebling so underwhelming in comparison to WHM or BLM, or SCH. Why is RDM enhancing underwhelming compared to /RDM enhancing?

If Skill is the precursor to what quantifies master and equipment and ability why is DRK on EX Sword WS and RDM not? I mean RDM has a higher skill.

Would you mind quantifying your statement some please? I am looking at a job that is bottom of the barrel, a job that is as useful in a subjob capacity as a main job capacity, and from what I read is that skill determines the functionality of jobs...why is RDM not being addressed in the same capacity?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings!

While we will not be making daggers specifically for red mage, in the future when we increase the amount of weapons, we will be adding a variety of types that can be equipped by red mages. Though red mage is proficient in close range combat, they will not be receiving the same kind of daggers that can be wielded by thieves and dancers, who are the masters of this weapon.

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Coming back to this post, as it has been more than 6 months... I have to ask, where are our new daggers?

Since this post, no, correction, since the level 90 cap was broken to allow us to level to level 95, we have gotten only 3 new daggers.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/c/c...escription.png
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/4/4...escription.png
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/f/f...escription.png
The second is level 100, third 101.



Lets look at daggers other jobs got since Adoulin was released...

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/8/8...escription.png
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/d/d...escription.png
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/8/8...escription.png
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/f/f...escription.png
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/0/0...escription.png
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/2/2...escription.png
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/2/2...escription.png
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/c/c...escription.png
I do not know each ones level.



Now, I would never argue we should have every dagger. But the best we have is a dagger that is level 101, with 44DMG, the best for THF & DNC is at 108DMG. While I would never argue we should have all daggers, or the best daggers, we should have better than a dagger with literally half the DMG of a THF or DNC dagger. We have waited a while, but the results are lack luster to me so far as this goes, please, if you are going to give us daggers, make them daggers which are worth using. Aluh was a great weapon, it was one of the best daggers and allowed a RDM to actually be fairly strong with daggers unlike our normal, but now that its gone, what is their left for us in this field?

I'm trying to figure out how PUP and DRK made it on to Aphotic Kukri but not RDM... I mean you guys are on the sword but sometimes i think SE really doesn't remember RDM and Dagger D:

As someone who favors swords for rdm I am happy that we got some dev comments supporting the use of RDMs and sword. I mean while I am happy for this for my own biased personal reasons (I think swords are cooler then daggers). I think this shows SE is trying to wrap their head around itemization appropriate for rdm, which could only improve things for RDMs. I mean while I don't advocate RDM being a front line job (i love being a enfeebler!) I do think in "theory" its a job that should have a dagger or sword equipped with appropriate stats to boost RDMs job requirements, not a club or a staff. Really, though to date their are very limited options for RDM to have a "mage" based sword or dagger (accept maybe Sanus Ensis). What exacerbates this situation is even if they use mage focused dagger or a sword we also have crap options for our shield slot (accept Genbus shield with enchantments on it). So if SE really has decided RDM is primarily a "sword user" it could be really great because we may finally get some swords appropriate for RDMS with stats to boost maged based functional roles.

What I find really odd about this is if you look at weapon skills SE has favored RDMs access to Dagger based weapon skills by giving rdm native access to Aeolian Edge and not to Sanguine Blade.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I'm trying to figure out how PUP and DRK made it on to Aphotic Kukri but not RDM... I mean you guys are on the sword but sometimes i think SE really doesn't remember RDM and Dagger D:

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Some goofball treated Aphotic Kukri exactly like a level 20 Kukri rather than a high level item. The jobs on it are determined by item type rather than how much use a job would get out of it. Bard can't even use it!

I like to think the Development Bro responsible is the same guy who made Ophidian Trident rather than Ophidian Lance or Ophidian Sharpened-Stick-With-492-Delay.

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We’d like to increase the amount of equipment choices such as marksmanship weapons for thief, daggers for red mage, which current gear has not covered well, and new equipment such as grips with delay +.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...600#post466600

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...600#post466600

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I hope that includes more melee gear and also swords.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I hope that includes more melee gear and also swords.

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If it doesn't, it will only mean that RDM being on daggers will be meaningless. I mean already to have a good TP set I have to TP in gear from Pre-Adoulin, missing out on the DEF, STR, DEX & such on TP gear, not to mention just flat out Attack & Accuracy, Double Attack, Dual Wield, and so on. The only new piece of TP gear we have actually gotten in all of Adoulin is Buremte Gloves I believe. If they give us more TP gear, RDM could make use of the daggers.



Note: I don't count things like the 10% Haste Belt as new because its the same jobs as Phos, as would be expected thanks to Phos being used to make it. Also, All Jobs items do not count in my opinion because they are all jobs, not specifically given to RDM, but everyone in the game.

what i've done is upgrade from the +7 phos to the +9 pyah ekue, then used that to "downgrade" from 4% bregos to 3% bokwus, augmented with accuracy attack and dex. (bokwus gloves don't need any augment to be a really strong cure piece, and no amount of augmenting will make them the best nuking or enfeebling piece. so i'm not losing much by melee augmenting them.)

then i got the uk'uxkaj however you spell that boots from hurkan (via order up) which allowed me to swap the augment on my bokwus boots from an enfeebling piece (since i now enfeeble in uk'uxkaj) to another acc/att/dex +3% haste piece, improving over my old dusk+1 boots.



i'm also considering replacing my zelus tiara/kudzu aketon pair with a nahtirah head and hagondes body. though i'm not sure if this is actually beneficial. it would break even on haste, end up at about +24 str +34 dex +4 att +24 acc and allow me to TP in an autorefresh2 body, for whatever that's worth.

but i'd end up DOWN 3% DA and 5 store tp.

i feel like if i get something out of all that dex/acc it would be worth it. also it's +138 defense and +64 evasion, again, for whatever that's worth.


so there's at least some improvements to be made if you're creative. though i agree... dunno why they don't just put RDM on the damn schneddick/thurandaut/manihbozo sets.

Well actually I just adjusted my TP set last night and made an alternative set as well.

The disturbing part about these sets is that compared to our old one, our DPS actually goes down. Every other job got a boost in DPS on top of massive defensive stats and other things, however a RDM trying to melee has to choose between the best DMG we can get, or this new gear with a lot of very helpful survival stats. With everything RDM already has to deal with when trying to DD, a WS with an Attack Penalty, forced /NIN, no offensive job traits, having to completely rebuff every 12 or so minutes, and the fact we get left out of almost all light DD gear, I think this is a bit unfair for us.