DRK is 3x more OP than vanilla WAR's Ukko's Fury

i'm getting kind of tired of seeing the endless drk's with great swords in jueno from the community forcing it down their throats.

I have a DRK in my LS that rocks out 95 and is parsing pretty well in events too. Not once have I ever heard him turned away because he uses his scythe over Reso.

I will continue to use my 99 Apoc over all GSs I have.

I will continue to use all THREE of my 2 handed weapons. (not to mention the other one handed weapons I use)

Picking one weapon and sticking to it adamantly is a sign of laziness.

2008: I'm getting kind of tired of seeing the endless SAMs with Haguns in Jeuno from the community forcing it down their throats.

2011: I'm getting kind of tired of seeing the endless WARs with Ukonvasara in Jeuno from the community forcing it down their throats.

The cycle continues. Dark Knight finally gets a moment to shine that isn't Kclub 2 hour nonsense, and you complain?

I use both Scythe and GS. I liked the style of GS more. Subduer used to be my main weapon.

I have Apoc 95 I love it but I like useing GS also unfortunatly my best GS atm is Gram it is decent GS able to do a 5 hit build with it

Wasn't there a lot of bitching about how DRK's were sucking dick compared to all these Ukko war in the 1st place?

No matter how things change or others higher up try to 'fix' things, some will always complain.

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Originally Posted by SNK

Wasn't there a lot of bitching about how DRK's were sucking dick compared to all these Ukko war in the 1st place?

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Yes, lolDRK being the usual reference..

DRK's didn't have a 2H crit WS nor any extremely restrictive procs. Thus in abyssea they were mostly ignored in favor of proc friendly jobs or jobs with crit WS that did insane damage. Voidwatch is all about zerging something dead in 120s or less while riding fanatics and procing like crazy. DRK/WAR with Berserk, Last Resort, Stalwarts, March's, Minutes and food can hit ridiculous levels of attack. Some of the higher end mobs have high defense / evasion and thus a Soul Eater Resolution spamming DRK/WAR does insane damage on them.

Next year something else will be the "in" thing and life will move on.

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Originally Posted by saevel

DRK's didn't have a 2H crit WS nor any extremely restrictive procs. Thus in abyssea they were mostly ignored in favor of proc friendly jobs or jobs with crit WS that did insane damage. Voidwatch is all about zerging something dead in 120s or less while riding fanatics and procing like crazy. DRK/WAR with Berserk, Last Resort, Stalwarts, March's, Minutes and food can hit ridiculous levels of attack. Some of the higher end mobs have high defense / evasion and thus a Soul Eater Resolution spamming DRK/WAR does insane damage on them.

Next year something else will be the "in" thing and life will move on.

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All this, but let's not forget we also give that nice extra 10% attack to chaos roll. Cor party forever. ^^

The sad part is a WAR using a Greatsword > a DRK using a Greatsword > a DRK using a Scythe.

Quick question about DRK in VW... does fanatics prevent HP lost from Souleater? I saw a mild reference to it in one of these threads, but it doesn't seem like it would make sense for fanatics rather than fools. The reference was something along the lines of "A DRK using souleater under the effect of fanatics or perfect defense..." though it might have just meant that you can't kill yourself with it under those conditions and you still need cure bombs, idk.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Quick question about DRK in VW... does fanatics prevent HP lost from Souleater? I saw a mild reference to it in one of these threads, but it doesn't seem like it would make sense for fanatics rather than fools. The reference was something along the lines of "A DRK using souleater under the effect of fanatics or perfect defense..." though it might have just meant that you can't kill yourself with it under those conditions and you still need cure bombs, idk.

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No it doesn't prevent HP loss from soul eater. What it does do is prevent the DRK from dieing when their HP is going down during the NMs super aoe moves. SE and Fanatics both have the same duration of 60s, so if you pop SE right before you pop Fanatics you should be protected the entire time. A good WHM will be cure bombing their parties DRK during that first 60s zerg time.

Indeed DRK is overpowered in Void watch just as a ukkos WAR is overpowered in abyssea outside of there it's alot closer.

btw if a DRK is 3x more powerful than a WAR then it's the person playing that WAR i've seen WARs get pretty close to Ragna DRK going all out.

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Originally Posted by Taint2

The sad part is a WAR using a Greatsword > a DRK using a Greatsword > a DRK using a Scythe.

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Only with 2hr tho after that DRK > WAR with GSD

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

Only with 2hr tho after that DRK > WAR with GSD

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The DRK in me wishes that was the true. The harder the mob the more GS favors WAR, especially Ragnarok. LR is the saving grace of DRK. (the minute its down really really hurts) Don't get me wrong there are situations where DRK beats WAR with a greatsword but most of the now content greatly favors WAR. (Watcher,Legion) Once you factor in WARs 2hr its not even close, but you know that already.

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Originally Posted by Taint2

The DRK in me wishes that was the true. The harder the mob the more GS favors WAR, especially Ragnarok. LR is the saving grace of DRK. (the minute its down really really hurts) Don't get me wrong there are situations where DRK beats WAR with a greatsword but most of the now content greatly favors WAR. (Watcher,Legion) Once you factor in WARs 2hr its not even close, but you know that already.

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Umm what ..

WAR/SAM
DRK/SAM

Both have a 3/5min 25% attack boost. WAR had DA, DRK has SE. And if your talking pure embrava / PD "zerg" then DRK/WAR has both Berserk and LR to go with their SE. WAR has aggressor but WAR also has less accuracy then DRK.

The only thing WAR has over DRK is MS / Savagery WC. MS can be done once per 2hr for insane numbers. Nice to have but I like to fight more then 1 NM per event day.

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Originally Posted by Taint2

The harder the mob the more GS favors WAR, especially Ragnarok.

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I don't get how tho if ya could explain.

w/ Legion we found DRK would destroy WARs mainly cause we PDed every mob and you can use Mighty strikes once but you can use Souleater every 5-6 mins.

I can't figure out what he's talking about ....

DRK has more attack then WAR so pDiff isn't a factor. Res isn't a crit WS so WAR's CAB II / Emp +2 boots aren't really a factor. Rag has +crit rate but crit rate has diminishing returns similar to DA, also both have similar gear options so that's not an issue.

And that's pretty much it outside of MS zerging which is once per 2hr.

Here are numbers for you:

Fodder: (capped ACC and ATT no lvl correction)
DRK/SAM

Set 1 Set 2
672 628
467.920 279.760

5.35 4.83
3846 3809

7441 6843
581 771

768.433 532.813

Set 1 Set 2

72 38
687.037


WAR/SAM

Set 1 Set 2
682 650
441.759 421.379

4.71 4.71
4255 3812

7465 6874
556 556

805.557 741.789

Set 1 Set 2

72 38
783.528



High lvl mob (120lvl)

DRK/SAM
Great Sword Great Sword
Resolution Resolution
20% 20%
1 1


Set 1 Set 2
267 225
185.910 145.900

6.56 6.72
1241 1131

2992 2644
685 742

262.011 213.724

Set 1 Set 2

72 38
245.330

WAR/SAM

Great Sword Great Sword
Resolution Resolution
20% 20%

0 0
8.98% 8.98%


Set 1 Set 2
307 197
198.960 127.613

6.08 7.10
1506 808

3374 2207
683 778

296.293 170.274

Set 1 Set 2

72 38
252.759

DRK/WAR (what you should be for a 120lvl mob) (scewed because I have LR on the same up/down timer as zerk and agg, which will reduce the overall)

Great Sword Great Sword
Resolution Resolution
20% 20%
1 1


Set 1 Set 2
322 228
224.053 101.396

6.35 7.36
1521 1189

3566 2864
668 1112

320.425 154.619

Set 1 Set 2

72 38
263.147

Anyone understand that? it's all just numbers to me with no explanation of what they mean

He's copying from Moten's sheets, absolutely no context for where those numbers came from thus their open to manipulation / interpretation.

One thing I really don't like about Moten's sheets is there is no time limit. It's assuming a monster with infinite HP. Thus damage is averaged over the period of it's recast rather then over the actual length of the fight. Take a proper zerg, the NM is dead in under 3 min. Soul Eater's damage should then be averaged over the length of 3 min instead of it's recast of 6 min (if it was even taken into account to begin with). LR / Berserk / Aggressor and such should be counted full time as the entire fight was within their duration.

Also the context of this argument needs to be taken into account. As a job WAR tends to be more powerful then DRK over longer durations, DRK tends to be a monster in short burst damage scenarios. The only exception to this is during a MS / Savagery zerg which is once per 2hrs. The argument though was that WAR as better with a Ragnarok then a DRK was which is pretty false. There is nothing about Ragnarok that favors WAR over DRK, DRK's higher skill gives it more Attack / Acc with a Rag.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

w/ Legion we found DRK would destroy WARs mainly cause we PDed every mob and you can use Mighty strikes once but you can use Souleater every 5-6 mins.

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Teach your WARs to cycle Blood rage and you can keep it up 100% of every fight, that levels the playing field between WAR and DRK white damage, but WAR still has the superior 2 hour, Stronger WS, and sometimes loltomahawk.

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Originally Posted by saevel

The argument though was that WAR as better with a Ragnarok then a DRK was which is pretty false. There is nothing about Ragnarok that favors WAR over DRK, DRK's higher skill gives it more Attack / Acc with a Rag.

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A 99 Ukon is also better than a 99 Ragnarok for WAR, except for some situations where mighty strikes is active. I dunno why you guys keep talking about GS WAR, but thats not what good WARs use 99% of the time.

And ya, Ragnarok is only better for WAR than DRK when Mighty Strikes is up, normally its not.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Anyone understand that? it's all just numbers to me with no explanation of what they mean

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+1

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Originally Posted by Meldity

i'm getting kind of tired of seeing the endless drk's with great swords in jueno from the community forcing it down their throats.

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I also get tired of seeing people try and do the best they can, and not using lame scythes just cause they look darker and more goth/emo/whatever the crybaby kids are into and calling it these days like its a new trend.

Why are people complaining that Dark is overpowered.... than Warrior. Big fckng deal lol. Some jobs are better for some situation, and a well geared player who knows how to play their jobs well always overpower the bandwagon ones. Next you know, all these haters will complaint about Perfect Defense and Embrava is overpowered, and then soon, Whm is overpowered as healer as well.

Taint those numbers mean very little to me since there's no context honetsly i'll just put it down to an opinion I disagree with.

Either way i think the point your trying to make is

When Haste, Atk and Acc is capped WAR > DRK with Ragna which is something i couldn't clearly tell ya cause in my experience of those place WAR will use a ukon over a ragna

But in most cases attack matters ALOT considering resolution attack penalty on the WS

w. attack bonus dif and skill it's 75 attack boost over WAR (13% attack bonus since it's applied before buffs)
then another 40-70 attack from endark.

Then your looking a even bigger difference when DRK is /WAR and i'm not talking about stacking LR and berserk i'm talking about staggering the recasts so that you always have a attack bonus up meaning at the least your couple 100 attack over a WAR and at other time you have 100+ 25% attack bonus over WS

As for acc it's not so hard to cap but there are still times it matters and when it does matter i'm sure DRK will pull ahead vs a Ragna WAR.

As a summary in my opinion

When Attack, Acc or haste (any 1 of the 3) matters the DRK is better with a gsd than WAR with a gsd outside of 2hr

And from all the new content i've seen Limbus, Legion, Odin V2 ect attack and accuracy matters alot and there are mobs there that use dispel so haste matters as well.

As for WAR w/ Ukon vs DRK w/ Ragna i'd rather not discuss that on a forum lol

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Then your looking a even bigger difference when DRK is /WAR and i'm not talking about stacking LR and berserk i'm talking about staggering the recasts so that you always have a attack bonus up meaning at the least your couple 100 attack over a WAR and at other time you have 100+ 25% attack bonus over WS

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This depends on the situation. In zergs / smash fights you always stack berserk / LR as staggering them has no benefit. The fight should be over in 3min. Legion is the exception as it's nothing but a series of PD zergs and thus you will have a time when your damage goes down, that's the only time I would recommend staggering berserk such that it wears right when LR is up again.

For Ukon vs Rag, that really depends on the target. Rag has higher WSC and total fTP, Ukon can crit. If your target has a ton of LCF (120 for example) then the spike in pDiff from critical Ukon's will have them doing more then Res's.

2.2 - (1.05 LCF) = 1.15 as the highest cRatio you can get. A crit would make it 2.15, an 86.95% increase in damage before CAB it taken into account. That's where Ukon get's its strength from, those massive crits, especially on the first hit.

i was basing it off the situation i believed taints numbers were aimed at of a drawn out fight cause in a 1-3 min fight outside of using 2hr DRK has more of an advantage so i was discussing the case when DRK would actually be competing with WAR which is a drawn out fight.

Personally i have LR and SE recast merited 5/5 most of the time cause in general it's better for me tho it's not hard to switch for legion or playing /SAM considering the 30 merit cap and u only need 15 merits to switch.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Teach your WARs to cycle Blood rage and you can keep it up 100% of every fight, that levels the playing field between WAR and DRK white damage, but WAR still has the superior 2 hour, Stronger WS, and sometimes loltomahawk.



A 99 Ukon is also better than a 99 Ragnarok for WAR, except for some situations where mighty strikes is active. I dunno why you guys keep talking about GS WAR, but thats not what good WARs use 99% of the time.

And ya, Ragnarok is only better for WAR than DRK when Mighty Strikes is up, normally its not.



+1



I also get tired of seeing people try and do the best they can, and not using lame scythes just cause they look darker and more goth/emo/whatever the crybaby kids are into and calling it these days like its a new trend.

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I'm getting tired of people eyeballing on resolution dmg but aren't looking their white dmg/speed.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

i was basing it off the situation i believed taints numbers were aimed at of a drawn out fight cause in a 1-3 min fight outside of using 2hr DRK has more of an advantage so i was discussing the case when DRK would actually be competing with WAR which is a drawn out fight.

Personally i have LR and SE recast merited 5/5 most of the time cause in general it's better for me tho it's not hard to switch for legion or playing /SAM considering the 30 merit cap and u only need 15 merits to switch.

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Considering your using a -8% attack weapon skill, the extra 10% attack on LR tends to be worth more then 60s recast on SE, especially as you won't be riding SE outside of PD / Fanatics or if you got your own dedicated WHM.

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Originally Posted by Detzu

I'm getting tired of people eyeballing on resolution dmg but aren't looking their white dmg/speed.

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I'm not entirely sure what I said that you have a problem with, or why you think you can talk about 'eyeballing' and provide nothing to prove you're right, but perhaps you could be more specific and then get back to me so I can prove you wrong. All I'm saying is:

For WAR, Ukkos Fury will pull ahead of Resolution unless youre using mighty strikes, because it has a superior TP set or hit build or both, and will do barely less actual damage, which will amount to more damage over time because you will do more Ukkos than you would of done Resolutions.

Having WARs and using Blood rage on every mob in Legion will keep up with/surpass the gains from using Souleater every third mob.

The best WAR will outparse the best DRK.

Which of these do you have a problem with exactly?

So a thread about drk being overpowered again ended with war being overpowered. Oh how the worm has turned. Keep talking about war being so overpowered maybe they will nerf it again. LOL

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Originally Posted by Siiri

So a thread about drk being overpowered again ended with war being overpowered. Oh how the worm has turned. Keep talking about war being so overpowered maybe they will nerf it again. LOL

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lol, that would suck. Maybe one day SE will learn that buffing weak jobs works out better than nerfing strong ones.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

The best WAR will outparse the best DRK.

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I disagree on this

personally i hate statements that A > B
back in abyssea where crit WS were king and Ukkos was the god of crit WSs this was true.

As far as I can tell atm

WAR is on the same level as DRK.

Either way WAR SAM and DRK are the top DDs in the game atm

As for my opinion SAM give me more competition than WARs

Now for the blood rage thing don't forget these 2 things Ragnarok has a 14% Crit rate bonus @ 99 and in Full buff situations DRK can have 15% haste in gear and stack DA TA QA and Crit rate depending on situation or even Dt gear if PD drops.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

lol, that would suck. Maybe one day SE will learn that buffing weak jobs works out better than nerfing strong ones.

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it really doesn't

i know you want to believe it does but it doesn't

















would you believe world of warcraft was actually kind of difficult at one point

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

Now for the blood rage thing don't forget these 2 things Ragnarok has a 14% Crit rate bonus @ 99 and in Full buff situations DRK can have 15% haste in gear and stack DA TA QA and Crit rate depending on situation or even Dt gear if PD drops.

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I find it interesting that back in the good ole days of 75, people who had Ragnarok put its crit rate at 15-20%. Now at level 99 its crit rate went from 15-20% to 14%. Perhaps wiki is just full of crap like usual.

As for the whole WAR vs DRK thing, heres my input. After taking a year off and getting back into the game I have found DRK only slightly better than when I left. I still see war performing basically the same. So neither of these jobs has progressed a reasonable fashion in the last year. This is a problem because war was overpowered when I left by a large margin, although I know it has been nerfed and since most endgame left abyssea it has had less impact on the endgame events. DRK has only progressed by getting a decent GS ws, which is not as strong as it needs to be still. SAM on the otherhand has become a very fluent job that works well with its design, however Tachi Godmode is broken. I think (and here comes the idea I've been stating for 2+years now) that DRK needs a major boost, as well as a clearly defined role. It is supposed to be about huge damage for great risk, and about weakening its enemies while strengthening itself. War is supposed to be a Jack of all trades, meaning it can tank if needed, while still offering comparable damage. Who knows maybe since FFXI is in the hands of the most awesome guy ever Akihiko Matsui we will finally see the adjustments we've been asking for, or perhaps they will make Rune Fencer so epic I could care less about DRK, I do love GS, always have been a GS DRK and always will, granted I do love my Twilight Scythe.

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Originally Posted by Smeggles

I will continue to use all THREE of my 2 handed weapons. (not to mention the other one handed weapons I use)

Picking one weapon and sticking to it adamantly is a sign of laziness.

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Unless you have Apoc it's a sign of knowing what works best, outside of needing procs of course.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

Ragnarok has a 14% Crit rate bonus @ 99

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This is where I stopped caring what you think, because you outted yourself as having no idea whats going on. No intelligent DRK would ever use scourge.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

This is where I stopped caring what you think, because you outted yourself as having no idea whats going on. No intelligent DRK would ever use scourge.

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He's not talking about Scourge, that's only +5% crit rate. He's talking about the "Increases rate of Critical Hits V" that's on the weapon. At 95 it's +11% at 99 it's +14% and is a bonus that's always in effect.

WAR, DRK and SAM are about even depending on the situation. Like always WAR and DRK respond better to buffs while SAM tends to smack into a glass ceiling. Some scenarios favor WAR (legion), others favor DRK (voidwatch), in any situation your going to have multiple of both. They perform best when their in the same party for Chaos + Fighters.

GS has always had good melee damage, GS weaponskills sucked in the past which forced DRK's to use Guilly and WAR's to stick with RR. Now that a 5-hit 100% STR Great Sword WS exists both jobs can effectively use GS. Its just another tool in the toolbox of a good DD (who always has multiple ways of dealing death and destruction).

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

This is where I stopped caring what you think, because you outted yourself as having no idea whats going on. No intelligent DRK would ever use scourge.

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you are the living end, i swear

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Originally Posted by scaevola

you are the living end, i swear

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wwwwwwwwwwww

But really, I dunno why I was thinking that was the Scourge aftermath.