Victory smite nerf [dev1064]

From the "testing in progress" section

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[dev1064] Job Adjustments: Weapon Skills

TP critical hit bonuses for the weapon skills “Ukko’s Fury” and “Victory Smite” will be lowered.

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lool PUP nerf.

Being as stringing pummel was already better, I fail to see this as a lool pup nerf.

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Originally Posted by Dfoley

Being as stringing pummel was already better, I fail to see this as a lool pup nerf.

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^ this.

Ukko's nerf is only right. I mean... that WS gets +80% crit at 300TP, one may wonder what the hell SE were smoking when they decided stats for Ukko.
Nerfing it a bit means making so it's not as broken as now, it doesn't mean to make Ukko's useless... it should be a reasonable nerf, not too big not too small.
One could argue about nerfing it one year too late, and I would agree with that. If you let so much time pass before you acknowledge something is "seriously broken" then you might as well leave things as they are and try to address the issue in some other way.

As for Victory Smite I'm not sure. I mean, the WS is surely brilliant and one of the best, probably the second best after Ukko's (but there still is a big difference between Ukko and Vsmite...), but it shows its limits when outside Abyssea. On tough stuff it's not really that awesome unless you got Impetus up and with a decent amount charged up.
I don't know Vsmite's exact TP>Crit values, but I always thought it was assumed to have the same ones as Blade: Hi?
That would mean 100%>15%crit, 200%>20%crit, 300>25%crit.
Doesn't seem particularly unbalanced to me.
If they want to nerf Vsmite I hope the % of the nerf won't be bigger than 5%, so to say 10%>15%>20% for 100, 200 and 300 TP respectively.

What really annoys me about this is not the nerf itself, but rather:
1) the fact this comes way too late
2) the fact I had already ruled Shijin Spiral out in favour of other WSs, now I'm back to square one because Shijin Spiral is definitely becoming the best MNK WS, even for people with Verethragna, and I really don't like the idea of gathering countless +DEX gear, stressing my limited inventory space even more and forcing me to give up one of the 3 WSs I learned. But yeah, Shijin and Vsmite are so close atm (outside Abyssea) that even a 1% nerf would make Shijin win over Vsmite, and we all know it won't be just 1%. Sigh...

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Originally Posted by Dfoley

Being as stringing pummel was already better, I fail to see this as a lool pup nerf.

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Random statement is random ? Victory smite is much better than stringing pummel.

Let's say you got 170str on VS and SP

Global WSD - without da/ta
VS=6.35*( floor(430*0.11)+3+12+39+ 0.85*(0.6*150) )=1191.89500
SP=5.85*( floor(430*0.11)+3+12+39+ 0.85*(0.32*150)+0.32*80 )=1011.114000
Globald WSD wih 21%DA 3% TA
VS=(3.35*(1+0.03+(1-0.03)*0.21)+3)*( floor(430*0.11)+3+12+39+ 0.85*(0.6*170) )=1338.844391
SP=(1.85*(1+0.03+(1-0.03)*0.21)+4)*( floor(430*0.11)+3+12+39+ 0.85*(0.32*170)+0.32*80 )=1085.840510

Do you still fail to see why it's a PUP nerf ? Shijin is now probably better for monk only cos they can use spharai. The only option for pup is to use the mythic which is not better than empy anyway !

Pummel is more or less on par with VS, Shijin is more or less on par if not better then Pummel outside of Abyessa. This is probably SE's stupid response to peoples negative comments to the new weaponskills.

When people don't want upgrade, nerf the better ws .

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Random statement is random ? Victory smite is much better than stringing pummel.

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I'm allergic to math so I don't want to claim anything, but the same thing was discussed a while ago on PUP forums and you can read it HERE
There result were that if not accounting for aftermath, Stringing Pummel should be slightly better than Vsmite, altough the difference wasn't particularly noticeable.

And I still don't get what you're trying to say with your "lolpupnerf".
It's a nerf to Victory Smite, not to MNK and not to PUP.
The only thing that's going to change is the current balance between Shijin Spiral and the other two WSs.
Currently Shijin Spiral was very close to Vsmite, slightly behind I'd say, not worth for Verethragna users, but worth for Spharai users since they don't get Vsmite and Final Heaven sux balls.
Still, Shijin was very close to Vsmite even for Vere users.
If they're nerfing Vsmite, it means that the small gap between Shijin and Vsmite will close, and the first will be able to get ahead of the second in every possible situation (outside of Aby), even for Verethragna users.

Which brings us to the point that after this nerf *every monk* will be expected to get and use Shijin Spiral in place of any other WS, period.

I still don't get how all of this relates to what you were attempting to say about PUP.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

I'm allergic to math so I don't want to claim anything, but the same thing was discussed a while ago on PUP forums and you can read it HERE
There result were that if not accounting for aftermath, Stringing Pummel should be slightly better than Vsmite, altough the difference wasn't particularly noticeable.

And I still don't get what you're trying to say with your "lolpupnerf".
It's a nerf to Victory Smite, not to MNK and not to PUP.
The only thing that's going to change is the current balance between Shijin Spiral and the other two WSs.
Currently Shijin Spiral was very close to Vsmite, slightly behind I'd say, not worth for Verethragna users, but worth for Spharai users since they don't get Vsmite and Final Heaven sux balls.
Still, Shijin was very close to Vsmite even for Vere users.
If they're nerfing Vsmite, it means that the small gap between Shijin and Vsmite will close, and the first will be able to get ahead of the second in every possible situation (outside of Aby), even for Verethragna users.

Which brings us to the point that after this nerf *every monk* will be expected to get and use Shijin Spiral in place of any other WS, period.

I still don't get how all of this relates to what you were attempting to say about PUP.

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I can explain this to you.
He has Spharai, he trying to be smart and make fun with "Verethragna only" mnks because they are not true MNKs with both weapons like he is.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

From the "testing in progress" section



lool PUP nerf.

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As said, your flat wrong.

Personally i'm much more concerned about my MNK after hearing this news.

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

I can explain this to you.
He has Spharai, he trying to be smart and make fun with "Verethragna only" mnks because they are not true MNKs with both weapons like he is.

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I see, one of those lol-oldschoolers who qq'ed VS was better than their Final Heaven?

If nothing else, this is a monk nerf way more than a pup, because it makes SP even better than VS instead of just marginally better (read old threads instead of your lol-math), which means mnks have to use SS / Assurans fist, while pups can continue using a ws that was already better then the monk available ones. Not to mention pups have access to SS as well.

How do you not see this a monk nerf WAY more than a PUP?

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

I'm allergic to math so I don't want to claim anything, but the same thing was discussed a while ago on PUP forums and you can read it HERE
There result were that if not accounting for aftermath, Stringing Pummel should be slightly better than Vsmite, altough the difference wasn't particularly noticeable.

And I still don't get what you're trying to say with your "lolpupnerf".
It's a nerf to Victory Smite, not to MNK and not to PUP.
The only thing that's going to change is the current balance between Shijin Spiral and the other two WSs.
Currently Shijin Spiral was very close to Vsmite, slightly behind I'd say, not worth for Verethragna users, but worth for Spharai users since they don't get Vsmite and Final Heaven sux balls.
Still, Shijin was very close to Vsmite even for Vere users.
If they're nerfing Vsmite, it means that the small gap between Shijin and Vsmite will close, and the first will be able to get ahead of the second in every possible situation (outside of Aby), even for Verethragna users.

Which brings us to the point that after this nerf *every monk* will be expected to get and use Shijin Spiral in place of any other WS, period.

I still don't get how all of this relates to what you were attempting to say about PUP.

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Verethragna is still best used with victory smite, stop with you false assumptions. ODD is what makes it worth it. If your best weapon is verethragna, nothing happened wether you are monk or pup, however, with dynamis II, and level increase, aspharai becomes a realistic option that is only given to monk, and due to Shijin Spiral study, it's clear that this WS only doesn't suck with spharai. In other word :

prior to today : best PUP weapon and WS is verethragna/VS
today : best PUP weapon and WS is verethragna/VS with -10% damage

prior to today : best MNK weapon and WS is spharai/SS
today : best MNK weapon and WS is spharai/SS with -0% damage

It's a PUP nerf.

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Originally Posted by Dfoley

(read old threads instead of your lol-math)

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It's not math it's common sense. FTP are mod are knows for years.

At lleast I'm not suggestiing MNKs to use asuran fists with vere like you do... This nerf is at worst -10% damage on vere which still let it surpass stringing pummel witout accounting for ODD. If you account for ODD then vere is still better used with VS.

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

I can explain this to you.
He has Spharai, he trying to be smart and make fun with "Verethragna only" mnks because they are not true MNKs with both weapons like he is.

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I've never seen you math out anything beside through parses. do it. Let's have fun.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Verethragna is still best used with victory smite, stop with you false assumptions. ODD is what makes it worth it. If your best weapon is verethragna, nothing happened wether you are monk or pup, however, with dynamis II, and level increase, aspharai becomes a realistic option that is only given to monk, and due to Shijin Spiral study, it's clear that this WS only doesn't suck with spharai. In other word :

prior to today : best PUP weapon and WS is verethragna/VS
today : best PUP weapon and WS is verethragna/VS with -10% damage

prior to today : best MNK weapon and WS is spharai/SS
today : best MNK weapon and WS is spharai/SS with -0% damage

It's a PUP nerf.

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For it to be a PUP specific nerf, Stringing Pummel would needs be nerfed.

And as my SPs were more or lese equal to my Victory Smites on PUP, and after this VS change i'm sure SP will beat VS on PUP, i still am not seeing this PUP specific nerf.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

prior to today : best PUP weapon and WS is verethragna/VS
today : best PUP weapon and WS is verethragna/VS with -10% damage

prior to today : best MNK weapon and WS is spharai/SS
today : best MNK weapon and WS is spharai/SS with -0% damage

It's a PUP nerf.

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Prior to today: Best DD are neither MNK nor PUP
Today: Best DD are neither MNK nor PUP

Hence, by Pchan logic, this is not a nerf at all, because it didn't affect the best DD anyway. So why be MNK or PUP if you wanna DD?

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

I can explain this to you.
He has Spharai, he trying to be smart and make fun with "Verethragna only" mnks because they are not true MNKs with both weapons like he is.

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Ah lol
Waiting for someone with Glanzfaust to make fun of him then :P
back IT now


[whine]
Q_Q I don't wanna merit Shijin spiral!
[/whine]


@Dfoley
Yeah my point exactely. If anything Stringing Pummel will just become even better since the small gap between it and Vsmite will increase.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

I've never seen you math out anything beside through parses. do it. Let's have fun.

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You misunderstood me.
I dont think you are wrong about VS vs SS or VS vs SP. I just explained him how you see this situation. Instead of being sad that your 95Veret is being nerfed for situation where you would use it you are rather glad because so many MNKs are now worse than you by not having Spharai aka you feel more elitist.

Also by saying its only pup nerf you screaming "I have Spharai!" and smile to yourself that you are a little special. How do I know all this? Because I am the same and I understand you. Yes Im guilty I felt elitist with my 95 ukon and they nerfing my toy.

Dammit, does this mean I need to level BST and start farming currency for a Spharai?

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Originally Posted by Francisco

Dammit, does this mean I need to level BST and start farming currency for a Spharai?

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Worst troll attempt ever!

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Verethragna is still best used with victory smite, stop with you false assumptions.

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I'm not sure about that.
Of course it depends on the entity of the nerf, but seeign how close Shijin and Smite are nowadays (even on Vere) it will take a very very very minimal nerf to mantain things like they are now for Vere users.
ODD is good, but I fear sometimes people overestimate its efficiency. With the only offhand / only once per attack turn caps it doesn't really have for MNK an impact as big as it has for other 2H weapons.

And I wouldn't be so sure about calling Verethragna best weapon for PUP either. Kenkonken is no joke after the recent 95 trial. Stringing Pummel is already an excellent WS, from 90+ they get a 15% damage boost on KKK, they get a 3 mins Aftermath, a stronger WS, an OA2-3 that can proc during WS and applies to pet... yeah, I'm afraid it's not that obvious that Vere is best PUP weapon.

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

Worst troll attempt ever!

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Not trolling, but I wasn't really asking either.

I'm pretty pissed about the nerf - and now I'm contemplating scraping plans for 1500 Heavy Metal, and focusing that on a 95 Spharai... a lot of this depends on how the 99 Trials wind up, etc...

My efforts in collecting the heavy metals (which I had begun, but not completed) were under the assumption of a relatively easier (shorter) trial for 99...

Figuring if it's ~150mil for either relic or 95 Emp, and I can make 1/mil easily in a day, it's only ~5 months... the problem arises when you consider I can only devote 1-2 nights a week to this endeavor... so the time to complete becomes much longer. Not unattainable, jut not worth it if the 99 weapon is another major time sink.

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Originally Posted by Francisco

Not trolling, but I wasn't really asking either.

I'm pretty pissed about the nerf - and now I'm contemplating scraping plans for 1500 Heavy Metal, and focusing that on a 95 Spharai... a lot of this depends on how the 99 Trials wind up, etc...

My efforts in collecting the heavy metals (which I had begun, but not completed) were under the assumption of a relatively easier (shorter) trial for 99...

Figuring if it's ~150mil for either relic or 95 Emp, and I can make 1/mil easily in a day, it's only ~5 months... the problem arises when you consider I can only devote 1-2 nights a week to this endeavor... so the time to complete becomes much longer. Not unattainable, jut not worth it if the 99 weapon is another major time sink.

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I tho you had relic ; ;

Also its not 150M for them. Its something like 113M for Spharai now (counting 70byne for last stage) and something like 170-180 for plates.

I think the real question is why is PUP relavant again?

It's not.

0123456789

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

Kenkonken is no joke after the recent 95 trial. Stringing Pummel is already an excellent WS, from 90+ they get a 15% damage boost on KKK, they get a 3 mins Aftermath, a stronger WS, an OA2-3 that can proc during WS and applies to pet... yeah, I'm afraid it's not that obvious that Vere is best PUP weapon.

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The aftermath is at 300 TP it's useless and that's why mythics are all garbage. Funny how someone mentionned glanzfaust.

Don't have one myself, but doesn't seem too bad to keep lv3 mythic AM active with a high uptime in the era of Tactical Roll, Miser's Roll, temp items etc.
I just think they get underestimated more often than not.

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Originally Posted by SNK

I think the real question is why is PUP relavant again?

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Haters gonna hate... just saying, if you count our pets we pretty much destroy monk DD, but thats a topic for another troll thread

Some people must really never play with Bards or something. Good lord.

Per my pup spreadsheet calculations, using Bukhis target outside Abyssea, and using 15% base crit rate for Smite and 10% for Pummel, I have Smite at 1627 and Pummel at 1610 for a Taru (140 total str). For Elvaan (151 total str), 1699 for Smite, 1677 for Pummel. Overall, Smite has barely more than a 1% lead over Pummel. I don't see how you're ending up with numbers indicating a ~20% lead.

Regardless, Smite always felt rather weak when directly compared against Ukko's ludicrously high crit rates. At least we know that there's not a lot of room for them to nerf Smite (it's only ~5% above the general baseline for crit-based weaponskills), as compared to Ukko's. Dropping 5% crit rate from the above puts Taru at 1583 and Elvaan at 1654, putting Pummel about 1.5% ahead of Smite.

there's a name for that nerf, its called BS

@ Motenten. Yeah I counted an extra hit for vere so in the end victory is only slightly superior, it doesn't change that it's a PUP nerf because verethragna should remain their best weapon due to ODD/STR+17~20. Baring Maybe mythic, but anyone sane wouldn't consider it for this discussion. At least until we see what they do with nyzul revamp. Without going further into the math 30% ODD on main is roughly 15% increase to melee dot. I'm guessing PUP is the same as monk and melee takes priority (65% // 35% melee-ws split) so it's actually ~10% increase. You'd need to drop a lot more than 10% from VS to make vere+SP on par. The base crit might now be enough so in the end it's a pup nerf.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Per my pup spreadsheet calculations, using Bukhis target outside Abyssea, and using 15% base crit rate for Smite and 10% for Pummel, I have Smite at 1627 and Pummel at 1610 for a Taru (140 total str). For Elvaan (151 total str), 1699 for Smite, 1677 for Pummel. Overall, Smite has barely more than a 1% lead over Pummel. I don't see how you're ending up with numbers indicating a ~20% lead.

Regardless, Smite always felt rather weak when directly compared against Ukko's ludicrously high crit rates. At least we know that there's not a lot of room for them to nerf Smite (it's only ~5% above the general baseline for crit-based weaponskills), as compared to Ukko's. Dropping 5% crit rate from the above puts Taru at 1583 and Elvaan at 1654, putting Pummel about 1.5% ahead of Smite.

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Ah a voice of sanity that actually makes sense.

Says the guy talking about Pup destroying Mnk DD.

The good news is that now that they added a million things for people to upgrade in dynamis, Getting Spharai will probably be a lot easier now.

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Originally Posted by Dfoley

Ah a voice of sanity that actually makes sense.

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Noticed how he confirmed how VS is currently superior to SP in pure damage ?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

The good news is that now that they added a million things for people to upgrade in dynamis, Getting Spharai will probably be a lot easier now.

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Only if you plan to buy everything. If you plan to farm everything (which is realistic is a few weeks with a BST on your main and a mule) then nope. Except maybe the forgotten item that seem to drops 6x less than coins. If the demands stays steady you caould use them to buy a part of your coins, however it still implie that you farm dynamis. Their prices is stable at 100k-150k I think it will stay at 100k because they are pretty rare and most people farming them keep them for their own use, as people seem to prefer farming EP for coins.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Noticed how he confirmed how VS is currently superior to SP in pure damage ?



Only if you plan to buy everything. If you plan to farm everything (which is realistic is a few weeks with a BST on your main and a mule) then nope. Except maybe the forgotten item that seem to drops 6x less than coins. If the demands stays steady you caould use them to buy a part of your coins, however it still implie that you farm dynamis. Their prices is stable at 100k-150k I think it will stay at 100k because they are pretty rare and most people farming them keep them for their own use, as people seem to prefer farming EP for coins.

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I was thinking more along the lines of being able to get big pick up groups that will come just for the forgotten items, and xp, and let you keep the currency. People need 20,000 xp with that gear on once they get it, so every zone is gonna be full of people eventually.

There are a lot of people who haven't touched dynamis since abyssea came out, who don't care about relic weapons, but will be wanting their relic gear upgrades just like before.

I just want to point out the fact that having an argument whether the VS nerf was a mnk or pup nerf is a new level of stupid for FFXI players.

Just saying.

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Originally Posted by xbobx

I just want to point out the fact that having an argument whether the VS nerf was a mnk or pup nerf is a new level of stupid for FFXI players.

Just saying.

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As sad as it sounds, I don't think that's true.

I think the fact that it affects pup at all is sorta telling. They could have just nerfed some monk ability if they wanted it to be monk only. Of course they are really careless, so the pup nerf may have just been a byproduct.

don't doubt a 99Pup's with a Lv.95 KKK ability to humble all mnks.
its easier to swallow if you're prepared with the reality of just how bad ass KKK is.

Can test lv95 KKK yourself on testserver if you want.
I guess in some specific situations a KKK PUP might outdamage a Vere/Spharai Monk, but I'm not really sure that can happen anytime anywhere and on any target...
Or maybe am I underestimating KKK's power? Which is definitely a lot, not denying that.