Disturbing a cleave PT on purpose to hurt a group, [again or not again ToS?]

Hi,

First i would like to thank everyone that take time to read this thread. Lately more then usual, i have trouble with a specific player who is having fun to track me down on Fenrir server to see when and where i cleave, and then come in the zone and have fun to "AGA/AJA" all monster on last 5~10% HP, or even better, he follow me, then wait i gather together enough monster (~20 monster) then breakga and use "conflux" to make them despawn.

Anyway, i post this thread because i get confuse about GM position in all this. Part of the "Rules and Policies" said, kill a unclaim mob is a fair game.

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Originally Posted by KB Article: 55261:

Q: I was gathering multiple monsters together when another player came and started to defeat the individual monsters that I’d gathered. Is this violation?

A: A player or group of players is permitted to attack any unclaimed monster regardless of the circumstances. Therefore, if you have encountered someone that is killing monsters from a group that you’d gathered, this will be considered a legitimate tactic. However, please contact a Game Master via the /helpdesk command in-game if you have experienced verbal abuse or other violations as defined in our policies.

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But then, we also have on the Rules and Policies:

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Originally Posted by KB Article: 12656

Q: How to judge if an action is harassment.

A: GM defines insults, racism, obscenities, etc. as harassment. Other types of behavior that result in the distress of other players are also categorized as harassment.

Please understand that the things that you say or do might not be considered harmful from your perspective, but they may indeed affect other players' game play.

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I would also like to point out this Article:

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Originally Posted by KB Article: 12559

Article 4.4 Revocations of User Rights.

(f) Harassing, tormenting, intimidating, pestering, obstructing, taking advantage of, or any way hurting or damaging other Users or any third parties or their properties utilizing the PlayOnline Service

Harassment is not taken lightly under the User Agreements and Policies, and if confirmed, will be dealt with swiftly and harshly.
Insuring the well being of those being harassed is just as, if not more important to us than punishing the offending party. If the offending party does not desist from harassing the victim, then further levels of punishment can be introduced to protect the victim from any more unpleasantries.
If you are harassed in any manner, we ask if possible, for you to register the offending players' name in the Black List. If this does not stop the harassment, please make a GM call as soon as possible.

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So as i can understand from KB Article: 55261, nothing void your right to take a monster for a good reason... NM turn unclaim, then too bad for the group, they should have secure the claim better, you need a pop item but all monster are taken, then get monster from the gather together group is also justified.

But if you camp a cleave group for several minute to kill the last 5% HP should be totally breaking KB Article: 12559 And further more if you brag in /tell or /say about it.

Anyway, that night, the guy stayed from 2pm to 4pm, then exited to do dynamis and told us: see u in the future, and as promise he came back @ 7h34 and said:

-nice to see your bright face again.
-it seems you and ur friends dont learn ^^, guess history will repeat itsself
-not gonna be nice, ^^
-thats it
-last straw
-no more nice galka
-Tried to warn you

So ya, the warning was, when he is in the zone we need leave the zone immediately, his pseudo reason is variant, lately apparently he does this because it's his duty to stop cleave noobs from infesting the game.

Over 24 GM call, with 12 different player that are tired of this, and nothing been done, we even talked with a senior GM, but it seem GM are too confuse to take the correct action again this issue.

I wish GM review the RULE and apply sanction when this problem occur, of course i am 100% sure i am not the first one placing a call about this issue.

In answer to KB55261 -> Harassment should not be tolerated regardless of the circumstances.

No point to hurt each other with lame action/reason, it might sound like i level noob for this guy, but keep in mind, many player would probably just refuse to play the game if this possibility wasn't available.

**Sorry for my English syntax/grammar, i try hard and as french canadian this is not 100% easy.

This is basically the same situation as Summoner Burns. If you can demonstrate that the person in question is doing it with the intent to harass or impede you, it is an offense.

Killing monsters for the sake of killing monsters is not an offense. Anyone can walk up and kill whatever monster they feel like, regardless of whether or not it has been gathered by another player. But, if someone is intentionally trying to grief another player by taking their mobs, then it is harassment. The difference is not in the action, but in the intent, and you have to be able to show the GM the intent via chat logs if you want them to do anything about it.

Even then, it's up to the individual GM. Your mileage may vary.

I'm curious about this too, I have had people show up while I am Charged Whisker burning, and Aeolian Edge the mobs I have slept (which wakes them up and basically MPKs me). A Response from the powers that be would be good.

Thanks for reply Greatguardian,

Well the best i got is: "Thank you. Before I start my investigation, are there any other concerns I may assist you with at this time?"

Sadly, at this time there is no action taken again this guy, he even brag about it and ready to do the same, and is the whole reason of this post, even with major evidence of intent to harass, nothing been done to issue the problem, due to surgery lately i was not able to cleave, but i am starting back tomorrow, i just hope that not going to end into a nightmare again.

Thanks FrankReynolds for your feedback, i hope to see more story about this, because i have big doubt about GM action, and i think it worth to be reviewed/issued.

Way i see it if your pulling all the mobs and i need something from those mobs im going to cleave your stack regardless yellow is yellow and you have no claim to them all apart from your red mob if you have them slept for charged whisker im sorry but you run the risk of dying and i wouldn't give a stuff if you did.

In your case Ilax that guy seems to be a huge dick head following you around.

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Originally Posted by uptempo

Way i see it if your pulling all the mobs and i need something from those mobs im going to cleave your stack regardless yellow is yellow and you have no claim to them all apart from your red mob if you have them slept for charged whisker im sorry but you run the risk of dying and i wouldn't give a stuff if you did.

In your case Ilax that guy seems to be a huge dick head following you around.

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I agree with you for the most part, but the way you go about it is probably wrong.

If you need something from the mob in question, ask first. Don't be a total douchebag. Often times when i do this the PI for the local NM is in my bazaar for 1g, will trade for free if you're gonna nit pick.

If I'm farming and some jackwipe shows up and starts gathering every single mob in the area you damn well better believe I'm going to fight for my right to farm and take them off their train.

That guy sounds like a major dick. Mind sharing his name?

Not saying killing other people's mobs is bad per se, it always depends on the situation. I remember cleaving Coeurls in Tahrongi with some douchebag showing up and started soloing the mobs, always taking out 3 or 4 at a time. I politely told him there's a whole unused area of exactly the same mob just a bit to the west, but he didn't listen and kept going even after multiple tells and pleas. And in that situation, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. As I said, it's not black or white, there are gray areas and different circumstances to consider. However, in OP's case it sounds like an absolute dick move. Such players are worse than RMT imo and should be permabanned.

sadly with FC going on, SE reduced the total number of mobs you can get exp off of at once time. anything over 8 at a time you wont get exp. CW burn all kinds. Havent tried to get chain 9+ outside aby but inside limit is 8. as far as this main topic, i have only 1 question: Why has he singled you out? I use to be a jerk and Dia a SM burn as soon as I saw 1st 2hr go off. was np to kill a pt like that @75 and could easily hold hate and tank them all as rdm with spikes up But I talked to a GM 1st, they said "As long as the monster is Yellow its fair game" the GM didnt care if I was doing it to be a jerk or just farming so long as I didnt brag about it.once that happend I would have been Jail state

If your intentional actions are putting someone else in danger (e.g. waking slept mobs) then it might be rising to the level of a code of conduct violation.

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Originally Posted by Manicora

sadly with FC going on, SE reduced the total number of mobs you can get exp off of at once time. anything over 8 at a time you wont get exp. CW burn all kinds. Havent tried to get chain 9+ outside aby but inside limit is 8. as far as this main topic, i have only 1 question: Why has he singled you out? I use to be a jerk and Dia a SM burn as soon as I saw 1st 2hr go off. was np to kill a pt like that @75 and could easily hold hate and tank them all as rdm with spikes up But I talked to a GM 1st, they said "As long as the monster is Yellow its fair game" the GM didnt care if I was doing it to be a jerk or just farming so long as I didnt brag about it.once that happend I would have been Jail state

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But explain me how that is not again KB Article: 12559? Is all this a lack of knowledge from GM?

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Originally Posted by Manicora

sadly with FC going on, SE reduced the total number of mobs you can get exp off of at once time. anything over 8 at a time you wont get exp. CW burn all kinds. Havent tried to get chain 9+ outside aby but inside limit is 8. as far as this main topic, i have only 1 question: Why has he singled you out? I use to be a jerk and Dia a SM burn as soon as I saw 1st 2hr go off. was np to kill a pt like that @75 and could easily hold hate and tank them all as rdm with spikes up But I talked to a GM 1st, they said "As long as the monster is Yellow its fair game" the GM didnt care if I was doing it to be a jerk or just farming so long as I didnt brag about it.once that happend I would have been Jail state

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Haven't Whisker farmed in some time now but the log only shows 8 instances the amount is much higher if you parse the EXP instead of reading the logs. Regardless pulling more mobs = more blue chests = more exp over time.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Haven't Whisker farmed in some time now but the log only shows 8 instances the amount is much higher if you parse the EXP instead of reading the logs. Regardless pulling more mobs = more blue chests = more exp over time.

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Might be true for CW, but is not for FC, Fell cleave is not accurate, so not all the monster take the same DMG, and most of the time only half the link die if not even less, and if you a bright cleaver, you wait 3 sec, and cleave other half to get 16~20 out of ~25 monster. Is very important, and make all the difference between a FC that make 120k/h and 200k+/h.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

That guy sounds like a major dick. Mind sharing his name?

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I can't, that would totally break the forum guide line.

I have blu burned a lot trying to get KI. I find there are a bunch of people that just love to wander into your camp and steal your monsters. Leonlionheart is right. If people would just ask before hand you can save a lot of drama. I other camp is there to build time then join me I will build time as long as I get my KI. If you wanted spawns we trade them easy enough. If you wanted to leech jobs I typically had a full party of my own friends doing same. However if you come and aoe my mobs weather it's ws or spells I take that as a challenge. So far I haven't been pushed out yet and we typically laugh at the people trying to steal my monsters. As for Ilax's problem I have yet to come across someone like that. I would be interested in hearing how it turns out as it would restore the little faith I have in SE.

I mean i can understand that someone might have a bad day, and out of no where toss is frustration and kill all mob from a cleaver, that frustrating, but you can move on quick from this.

But is all another story when the same guy is there for 2h long and that twice, brag about it, and say how he is the new Robin Wood and will save the game from the noob by coming every time i cleave.

We always have pop item in bazaar for 1 gil, i saw so many group pop the NM multiple time, and get pop item from our bazaar multiple time with no problem, heck i even invited a full PT when i had room to finish they trial on "bomb", and did same for fish. I'm not there to hurt anyone, i left Altepa mandies because it was a drama festival everyday, and i got tire of it, so i moved to Vunk on fish/bomb where no one have interest to cleave them, of course is less experience, but we find out over time is more Exp since there no drama/no interruption, well that was until that guy...

Again, i want to point out about KB12559, evidence in log or not, standing next to a cleave PT and AGA they monster every time they are 5~10% and that for several minute, is all again the Rule. I just cannot understand how action is not taken immediately.

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Originally Posted by uptempo

Way i see it if your pulling all the mobs and i need something from those mobs im going to cleave your stack regardless yellow is yellow and you have no claim to them all apart from your red mob if you have them slept for charged whisker im sorry but you run the risk of dying and i wouldn't give a stuff if you did.

In your case Ilax that guy seems to be a huge dick head following you around.

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I usually FC, WC or AE burn with my mule. If anyone wanted to xp at that camp, they could just ask to team up. it would be better for both of us. If they needed a drop, they could just ask, or check the 1 gil bazaar items. Some people just want to be dicks. I guess your one of them.

I know exactly who Ilax is talking about since we're both on Fenrir. This same guy did the same thing to a friend of mine's cleave party. I can't name names either but he's definitely a repeat offender. Just searched him and he's online and in one of the zones he pulls this stunt in.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

I know exactly who Ilax is talking about since we're both on Fenrir. This same guy did the same thing to a friend of mine's cleave party. I can't name names either but he's definitely a repeat offender. Just searched him and he's online and in one of the zones he pulls this stunt in.

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Must be a drama llama lover, there's no real reason to repeat this to multiple people

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Must be a drama llama lover, there's no real reason to repeat this to multiple people

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The griefer said he'd accept gil from my friend to leave. I'm not sure if that's always his motive or not.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

The griefer said he'd accept gil from my friend to leave. I'm not sure if that's always his motive or not.

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What in the world...

How I've handled this issue in the past is to stop for about 10~15min. Then let him start pulling and then Diaga his slept mobs until he can't handle it and dies. Alternatively, when he sleeps/pulls mobs, just do it back to him. If he's just sniping your mobs at low health, use a strategy that removes the lesser amount of HP first (Whirl of Rage -> Enervation -> Charged Whisker with good builds should put the mobs out of 1hit range for AE and his AE will get him hate, then you can CW when he stops running away for the kills)

Most of the time they quit within 10 minutes of you being inactive.

I'd go as far as to say that I occasionally enjoy the competition for pops when they become dickheads about it, because more often than not I can kill mobs much, much more efficiently than they can.

I dont think this guy actually cleaves mobs for chests, but to "rid vanadiel of cleave nubs"

Hmm, so instead having GM fix the issue, we have to break the Rules and Policies with "Inappropriate behavior" KB Article: 12649.

All this make no sense to me, of course i could have stop him doing this by pulling a NM, then.... the purpose of this action is MPK and is Inappropriate behavior, why GM is not stopping the bleeding from start instead making us to do our own justice by breaking even more rule.

In the end you know how all this end up, the rude guy will end to be lucky enough to not get jail for harassment, but you be jailed for MPK'ing him. Back in the time, i learned from this, because back in the time we all called GM about RMT that was move hacking, hell his dead body was moving all around in sky in same pattern, and GM was taking no action, even if 3 LS was sending call none stop about it. One day i got tire of this, and did my own justice, i pulled bunch of mob and used HIDE ability, BOT are stupid, so the bot aggroed and died. In a flash time of 3 min, my screen turn black with "Loading data" i knew from this point what going on, yep i got jailed for MPK, 3 day suspension for doing my own justice.

All this to say, WE ARE NOT GM, we have no power, and if in the end we have to break rule to get justice done, to be then jailed, this game not worth anymore to be played, no one would accept such of issue no matter what server, is plain silly.

Problem that i explained is also not about competition where 2 cleave PT fight each other to win the camp, the guy come SOLO on BLM, and have ZERO chance at all to kill more then 1 mob at the time, but able with no problem to kill 20 mob when they all 5~10% HP left. If i stop pull, then he just stand there doing nothing.

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Originally Posted by Nynja

I dont think this guy actually cleaves mobs for chests, but to "rid vanadiel of cleave nubs"

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No, i am also not doing any shady bizz, what i am doing is cleave PT and selling spot for 500k gil, but i guaranteed a minimum of lv30 to 95 and 400k cruor out of my 8h cleaving. Player that accept the deal can easy turn the 400k cruor into 1 million of gil. I do this to pay my Aegis which cost a total of 175 million. So take it this way, i help player to get they level + GIL and they help me to get Aegis. No bad intention at all. Is legit as much as who sell Empy item for 200k each, player choice to pay or not.

Sadly there is little to nothing a GM will ever do about this issue. Apparently GM's have been told that there is a very specific line a player must cross for it to be deemed harassment despite the wording of KB's or interpretation of ToS. To be rather frank, it is difficult to get them to do anything even if someone is verbally harassing you also.

ToS says it is a bannable offense, but all I've ever seen a GM say is "Have you tried Black listing the individual so as not to see what they say?" I've had people harass me without provocation and this is what I've been told by a GM several times, just blist the individual. Unless they are out in the middle of a zone shouting about something derogatory there usually will be no action taken in the way of harassment issues. The person could be stalking you and a GM will do little to nothing about it regardless of the outlined articles you've mentioned.

Needless to say that on Fenrir, I've seen several individuals do this to people just because they can, or they hold a grudge against the person for one reason or another. Can't say I've ever run into this individual personally, but I also don't sell cleave spots nor have any desire to. The use of stating why you are doing it really goes towards hurting your case rather than helping it since it is primarily irrelevant to the issue itself. Honestly, it only invites people to further attack you rather than help gain an answer as to why GM's don't seem to really uphold ToS rather than expect players to simply ignore an individual who is purposely going out of their way to grief you through verbal or other means within the game environment.

You lost me a little bit, because the main issue is way over verbal, i wish i had an option to blist his AGA/AJA spell.

No, the problem is way over that, and there nothing i can do about it, only GM at this point can help the situation, and what is my option if nothing is done... If i can't cleave because that guy decided is right to do so, what prevent me to act the same and prevent everyone from cleaving, and what prevent all these to prevent all other by frustration as well. Anyway there is no need for me to explain the hurt that can cause to the game since everyone can picture easy the problem.

There just no good reason for GM to let this happen, no one win out of this. Of course the reason i do my FC is irrelevant, i could do this for Ki or for fun, as you said that change nothing to the issue itself.

Usually you get much action taken for harassment unless, after blacklisting them, they continue to harass you in other ways, or get onto another character to get around the blacklisting or get other people to do their dirty work for them.

GMs don't do much but unstuck players at this point, and temp ban/ban spam in jeuno and racist slurs.

Can't you just use Mighty Strikes to 1-shot them? Or at the very least, pull all mobs and store tp up to 300%. If he casts break then runs to flux to depop them, you use FC to get hate back on them. If he sits and waits for mobs to be at low HP, berserk, blood rage, mighty strikes, sekkanoki, FC x2 should allow you to kill them too quick for him to get a spell off. Open up a restore chest and you have all JAs reset ready to go again, and 300% tp to boot.

I'm sure LLH can tell you the best atma choice for this way of cleaving to get the 1-shots in.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Can't you just use Mighty Strikes to 1-shot them?

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He's cleaving for EXP. If you kill too many mobs at once you won't get EXP for all of them. That's why FC always beat CW for EXP burns. Since he's having people pay him money for it, he wants to provide a valuable service. He'd have to gimp everyone's EXP and his own reputation because of some douchebag.

If they are doing it purely to harass you then you can get them temp/perma banned for it, all you have to do it call the GM and wait till they talk to you and try goad him into doing it while they are there watching. I got quite a few in trouble for this when I used to SMN burn and it works realyl well, they just depop infront of you :)

If you are pulling every mob and they are trying to get some then it's just competition but as he is purely harassing it's pretty simple. The more he says in say/tell the better too, he will hang himself with his own words..so try get him to talk as much as you can.

I've pissed of many charged whiskers blu in Konschdatd. The only decent camps over there is the THF tonberry mobs, because they are very close to each other, but its not even worth cleaving considereng there are only 10-15 mobs. However its my favorite camp for gold chest farming DD style [ MNK/WAR+BRD/WHM, capped amber and perle, 90% gold box spawn, 15 dark rings in 2H]. If there is someone cleaving there, they are monopolizing all tonberries I will have no problem stealing. They will leave soon anyway because DD killing is 3xfaster, so soon the mob will be too strong and hit them too hard [and everyone's grudge them lol].

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Originally Posted by Ilax

You lost me a little bit, because the main issue is way over verbal...

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What I mean is that in base it is still a form of harassment as outlined by articles you have quoted, but like verbal harassment there are various loopholes. Since these loopholes exist most times there is little the GM will do outside of saying "We'll look into the issue." As Runespider pointed out, unless they are doing it at the time you are speaking with the GM you'll usually accomplish nothing calling one. Even then it'll be hard unless the GM pops to where you are and witnesses it happening a couple times.

Go to Attowah and do Chigoe, pull tunga and watch him pull hate and die to that little mofo lol, should be easy enough to cfh it and kill it after unless you go with only 1-2 WAR and a SCH for Embrava spam

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

What I mean is that in base it is still a form of harassment as outlined by articles you have quoted, but like verbal harassment there are various loopholes. Since these loopholes exist most times there is little the GM will do outside of saying "We'll look into the issue." As Runespider pointed out, unless they are doing it at the time you are speaking with the GM you'll usually accomplish nothing calling one. Even then it'll be hard unless the GM pops to where you are and witnesses it happening a couple times.

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Well, that the worse part of it, i was talking to GM and that guy was still doing AGA/AJA/Breagka the pull, i also told the GM, "you don't even need investigate log, he is still doing it right now", sadly that did not even change anything. I placed call @ 2:10pm, GM answer @ 2:45pm, the guy did AGA/AJA the monster from 2pm to 4pm, and also came back 6pm to 8pm.

If the mobs are unclaimed its fair game I haven't see anyone ever get in trouble for pulling mobs off a train. Pretty much the game gives you claim to one mob the rest are fair game the player base decides if they will obey unwritten rules or not. Attempting to mpk or grief are not the same as killing unclaimed mobs that aggro or link its a fed move but not against the tos in any way.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

If I'm farming and some jackwipe shows up and starts gathering every single mob in the area you damn well better believe I'm going to fight for my right to farm and take them off their train.

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I do this as well if someone is training all the mobs in an area I will pick them off one by one if it's something I need to skill on farm whatever. No I won't ask their permission to do so because they didn't ask for mine to take all the mobs in the area.

What Ilax is describing is harassment. The person isn't doing it to farm skill up etc. They are just doing it to impede someone else's progress.

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Originally Posted by HimuraKenshyn

If the mobs are unclaimed its fair game I haven't see anyone ever get in trouble for pulling mobs off a train. Pretty much the game gives you claim to one mob the rest are fair game the player base decides if they will obey unwritten rules or not. Attempting to mpk or grief are not the same as killing unclaimed mobs that aggro or link its a fed move but not against the tos in any way.

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I'm guessing you didn't read past the thread title? Even the OP mentions why it is actually against the ToS. It's not about killing unclaimed mobs, it's about player harrassment.

Didn't read anything but the OP, the answer is that unclaimed mobs are fair game. As long as he doesn't type in game that he's doing it specifically to grief you, there is nothing you can do to get him in trouble. Maybe if you can prove he's been following you around and doing it a lot you could get a GM to do something, but I honestly doubt they would unless he said something in game about doing it just to spite you.

The real solution is to do things to get him to die, if you MPK him enough he will stop. Like when he goes to use the conflux after casting on all your mobs, spam cure and other low cast time spells on him to lock him out of being able to use the conflux. If he does stuff to your mobs while youre fighting them and theyre not dead, just disengage and warp away or die, then they will all kill him, then you can raise yourself or walk back and he'll have to homepoint. Beat him at his own game and he'll stop.

EDIT: Remember to taunt him when he's dead in say, things like 'oh man sorry I didn't realize they were going to kill you.' and stuff of that nature, not 'lol you loser that will teach you.' Because the second sentence will get you in trouble for griefing.

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Originally Posted by HimuraKenshyn

If the mobs are unclaimed its fair game I haven't see anyone ever get in trouble for pulling mobs off a train. Pretty much the game gives you claim to one mob the rest are fair game the player base decides if they will obey unwritten rules or not. Attempting to mpk or grief are not the same as killing unclaimed mobs that aggro or link its a fed move but not against the tos in any way.

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They are being griefed about it. The person is goading them on in /say and /tells showing that it is for harassment purposes only. Not to farm anything or try to AOE kill, just to stop OP from doing what they are doing because they can. What you bring up is one of the various loopholes that exist in the ToS which the person in question would fall back on. OP would need substantial proof and somehow need to have the GM watching or seeing the person say this to them directly. Lastly it falls to the GM to gauge if this is ban worthy or simply let them off with a warning, but most times will end with nothing being said to the individual in question at all.

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Originally Posted by Teraniku

I do this as well if someone is training all the mobs in an area I will pick them off one by one if it's something I need to skill on farm whatever. No I won't ask their permission to do so because they didn't ask for mine to take all the mobs in the area.

What Ilax is describing is harassment. The person isn't doing it to farm skill up etc. They are just doing it to impede someone else's progress.

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I do the same thing in real life. When I'm at the market, I just grab stuff out of other people's shopping carts. Why should I have to ask permission? I mean, I'm sure I could find the item on my own. Hell, the person might even be willing to give me his, or show me where to find one, but I just really like the idea of being a jerk to random strangers. Besides, it's not against the law. they haven't even paid for the stuff yet, so there is nothing they can do. It makes shopping so much more interesting.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I do the same thing in real life. When I'm at the market, I just grab stuff out of other people's shopping carts. Why should I have to ask permission? I mean, I'm sure I could find the item on my own. Hell, the person might even be willing to give me his, or show me where to find one, but I just really like the idea of being a jerk to random strangers. Besides, it's not against the law. they haven't even paid for the stuff yet, so there is nothing they can do. It makes shopping so much more interesting.

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Lol. Mug that is all.