Where's our Relic...?

Relic weapons were added around the time of 2006, which is also around the time of the ToAU expansion release date, while WoTG was released Mid-November 2007.

So here's my question: Could the ToAU and WoTG jobs get a relic at last? I could understand if Dancer and Scholar got a relic as they participated in the Great Crystal War, but Aht Urghan wasn't on the campaign map and/or they didn't really participate in the Great Crystal War.

I know that all jobs have their strengths and weaknesses, and that some jobs (like BLU for example) can overcome other jobs, be it through job abilities, magic capabilities, etc, but all jobs should have the equal respect they deserve.

Sidenote:
I know this was brought up by a few users including Sehachan from Phoenix (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11674-Relic-weapons-for-all-jobs.)
so I really don't need to say much more, but at some point during my time in FFXI I would like to at least leave the game with an achievement, namely a relic/mythic, but not one for a job I am going to rarely play cause that's just a waste of time.

I think relic weapons were around a year earlier than you stated.

If anything, the most likely thing to happen would be for those jobs to be tapped onto the pre-existing weapons. For BLU that would be Excalibur, which is currently a subpar weapon to the Almace.

Why not just make an empyrean instead?

Excalibur<<<< Shamshir<<< Tizona <<<<< Almace

Excalibur is just garbage tbh, I just iwhs they made Tizona extremely interesting.

Wut, have you looked at Excal's stats? You do know you don't have to use KOR, right? You do know it has the second highest base damage of those 4, higher +attack, and additional effect/Hidden damage boost right?

Seriously as awful as KOR is you don't know wtf you're talking about rating it below an elemental Shamshir.

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Originally Posted by Scuro

Excalibur<<<< Shamshir<<< Tizona <<<<< Almace

Excalibur is just garbage tbh, I just iwhs they made Tizona extremely interesting.

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Incorrect scaling, don't take this persons advice since he can't be bothered to prove why these tiers work and is still incorrect after factoring everything. Assuming that for some odd reason SE let blu use relic (highly doubtful).....

In raw dot (no aftermath state and in main hand)

#1.)Excalibur (17.77DPS+Add effect that deals slashing damage equal to 1/4 HP+ x2.5 hidden at ~15% activation rate at 95 (All additional stats do not work in offhand))
#2.)Almace (17.68DPS No other add effect without aftermath)
#3.)Tizona (15.76 DPS Occ. replenishes MP varied on dmg dealt)
#4.)Shamsir +3 (14.87 DPS no other effect)

The only exception to this is in aftermath state where Almace is granted ODD at any tp%, and only if Tizona has Lv3 Aftermath, which still doesn't raise it very high in overall source damage. In raw damage though that is when Almace and Tizona overtake Excalibur (assuming a 50/30/20 single/double/triple rate on 95 tizona aftermath).

In terms of all source damage is when Almace takes hold of first definitively. Due to the advantages of excal always active attributes compared to tizona's Aftermath requirements (use of expiacion at 300%) it comes down to situational practice on which holds 2nd. In all honesty I'd need more data to place 2nd and 3rd appropriately, but Shamsir+3 still remains dead last as it only offers +vairiable additional stats/effect depending on which you made. This even assumes a blu using spells as supplemental damage in a melee capable situation since the occ mp return on tizona overshadows +stat mods in the long haul also.

The exception to this statement only comes if the blu can not actually melee, then +att/hidden/add effects/aftermath all go out the window and it comes down to which gives stats for casting spells straight out where both tizona and excalibur will fall dead last leaving almace and shamshir in the lead due to +stats. This is the only conclusion I can come up to for excal being dead last on his list, but even then tizona would be right there with it.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

Incorrect scaling, don't take this persons advice since he can't be bothered to prove why these tiers work and is still incorrect after factoring everything. Assuming that for some odd reason SE let blu use relic (highly doubtful).....

In raw dot (no aftermath state and in main hand)

#1.)Excalibur (17.77DPS+Add effect that deals slashing damage equal to 1/4 HP+ x2.5 hidden at ~15% activation rate at 95 (All additional stats do not work in offhand))
#2.)Almace (17.68DPS No other add effect without aftermath)
#3.)Tizona (15.76 DPS Occ. replenishes MP varied on dmg dealt)
#4.)Shamsir +3 (14.87 DPS no other effect)

The only exception to this is in aftermath state where Almace is granted ODD at any tp%, and only if Tizona has Lv3 Aftermath, which still doesn't raise it very high in overall source damage. In raw damage though that is when Almace and Tizona overtake Excalibur (assuming a 50/30/20 single/double/triple rate on 95 tizona aftermath).

In terms of all source damage is when Almace takes hold of first definitively. Due to the advantages of excal always active attributes compared to tizona's Aftermath requirements (use of expiacion at 300%) it comes down to situational practice on which holds 2nd. In all honesty I'd need more data to place 2nd and 3rd appropriately, but Shamsir+3 still remains dead last as it only offers +vairiable additional stats/effect depending on which you made. This even assumes a blu using spells as supplemental damage in a melee capable situation since the occ mp return on tizona overshadows +stat mods in the long haul also.

The exception to this statement only comes if the blu can not actually melee, then +att/hidden/add effects/aftermath all go out the window and it comes down to which gives stats for casting spells straight out where both tizona and excalibur will fall dead last leaving almace and shamshir in the lead due to +stats. This is the only conclusion I can come up to for excal being dead last on his list, but even then tizona would be right there with it.

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He had mostly correct scaling, I'm not sure about Tizona compared to Excal as they can't be used on the same jobs. But Almace DESTROYS every other sword in the game, hands down no question asked. The actual scaling should be
Almace > Badelair > everything else.

The reason for this is CDC. CDC is one of the best WS's you can get for a few reasons. First being its 4.25 (2.25 + 2) worth of fTP without off hand, with off hand your talking 5.25 worth of fTP. Next the WSC is 60% DEX and it's a critical hit WS. As you stack DEX your dDEX goes up, once you pass +40 (40 higher then targets AGI) the next 10 DEX will give you 1% crit rate each, thus its easy to cap crit rate using a DEX WS.

Put all these together and CDC smash's anything vorpal, KoTR or Expacion can do, the difference is so great that it easily makes up for the add effect on Excal. That add effect btw has a low proc rate, really low as in 5% low. The ODD on Almace you can keep up by spamming the best sword WS in the game, thus it needs to be accounted for.

That all being said, BLU should of been added to Excal out of principal.

And honestly, all the special WS's should be made permanently available through quests you do after obtaining the weapon.

On harder mobs (never gonna cap dDEX etc.) Excal fares better but last I checked it was losing to Almace, but that was not considering the additional effect/ODD boost (Almace's wasn't considered either though).

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

On harder mobs (never gonna cap dDEX etc.) Excal fares better but last I checked it was losing to Almace, but that was not considering the additional effect/ODD boost (Almace's wasn't considered either though).

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My RDM can hit 140+ DEX, BLU's can surpass that easily. Your going to cap dDex on most VWNM's btw. Bravers + Atmacite pretty much guarantee's that.

So .. what exactly wont' you be capping dDex on again? Not too many things outside abyssea with 110+ AGI.

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Originally Posted by saevel

My RDM can hit 140+ DEX, BLU's can surpass that easily. Your going to cap dDex on most VWNM's btw. Bravers + Atmacite pretty much guarantee's that.

So .. what exactly wont' you be capping dDex on again? Not too many things outside abyssea with 110+ AGI.

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loooooooooool no

VWNMs have ridiculous AGI scores, your dDEX will not be particularly high on them. Champion's Tonic facilitates a decent critrate, however. Attack+35 would be nice for BLU and it's worth noting that we don't always keep aftermath up due to spells (this would not be an issue with Excal, though it's also not really an issue in Voidwatch) but as mob difficulty increases your spell usage will decrease and so you're less likely to see it drop.

Tizona is difficult to math for since keeping aftermath up is of such importance, yet it also encourages using spells more often... very different playstyle, very different builds. It's also important that you be able to melee fulltime.

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Originally Posted by Nightfyre

VWNMs have ridiculous AGI scores, your dDEX will not be particularly high on them. Champion's Tonic facilitates a decent critrate, however. Attack+35 would be nice for BLU and it's worth noting that we don't always keep aftermath up due to spells (this would not be an issue with Excal, though it's also not really an issue in Voidwatch) but as mob difficulty increases your spell usage will decrease and so you're less likely to see it drop.

Tizona is difficult to math for since keeping aftermath up is of such importance, yet it also encourages using spells more often... very different playstyle, very different builds. It's also important that you be able to melee fulltime.

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No they don't. They have the regular stats as other NM's of their particular levels.

SE doesn't give it's monsters crazy stats, they don't eat food, wear gear or receive super buffs. Instead SE just gives them crazy powerful TP moves using 200~400 DMG weapons. +100~200 MAB, -25~50% PDT / MDT and so forth. This is how SE always does things, even inside Abyssea the NM's didn't have crazy high stats.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

loooooooooool no

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Really adds to the topic.... Really!

(Realises this doesn't add much either, meh!)

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Really adds to the topic.... Really!

(Realises this doesn't add much either, meh!)

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I really don't see his point, I have him blocked so I don't have to deal with his immature rantings so this might just more of the usual.

Really all you need is 50 more Dex then the target has AGI, was difficult at 75 but since then SE has added tons of amazing gear with lots of DEX on it. I usually use the Dex+10 Attack+10 atmacite along with the STR+4 AGI+4 Acc+5 Regain+2 atmacite, puts me at 150 DEX during WS. Add on Bravers for +20 on each stat puts me at 170 DEX. Monsters would need an AGI of 120~130 to bring down the crit rate. And so far not a single VWNM has this, aside from possibly Kaggan.

Sawtelle had ~176 dex and couldn't cap dDEX on a Part 1 Tier 1 VWNM, 140 dex isn't close to what's necessary. Small sample but out of 132 landed hits he only managed 9% crit rate from dDEX, which would put the weakest VWNM at around ~130 AGI.

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Originally Posted by saevel

He had mostly correct scaling, I'm not sure about Tizona compared to Excal as they can't be used on the same jobs. But Almace DESTROYS every other sword in the game, hands down no question asked. The actual scaling should be
Almace > Badelair > everything else.

The reason for this is CDC. CDC is one of the best WS's you can get for a few reasons. First being its 4.25 (2.25 + 2) worth of fTP without off hand, with off hand your talking 5.25 worth of fTP. Next the WSC is 60% DEX and it's a critical hit WS. As you stack DEX your dDEX goes up, once you pass +40 (40 higher then targets AGI) the next 10 DEX will give you 1% crit rate each, thus its easy to cap crit rate using a DEX WS.

Put all these together and CDC smash's anything vorpal, KoTR or Expacion can do, the difference is so great that it easily makes up for the add effect on Excal. That add effect btw has a low proc rate, really low as in 5% low. The ODD on Almace you can keep up by spamming the best sword WS in the game, thus it needs to be accounted for.

That all being said, BLU should of been added to Excal out of principal.

And honestly, all the special WS's should be made permanently available through quests you do after obtaining the weapon.

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Your source information, I'd like to see it. Currently you are basing what you have on "eyeball statistics" while also reaffirming what I already said about all source damage in relation to tiers(Either that or you didn't notice the initial tier was based on NO AFTERMATH DOT). And being that Aftermath is not a 100% active function of a weapon it can not be considered in all aspects, hence the reason for mentioning different tier distributions throughout my post (if you had actually read it you would have seen that). This also was stated in the event that blu actually gained the ability to use relic, thus why I said his tiering is incorrect when factoring the different aspects of the weapons in various scenarios.

Now, to look at all source damage tiering: The WoE weapon actually falls below other weapons due to the fact it has no other added effect, or aftermath effect, meaning in all source damage it drops below excal in long term. It is like the old mentality of being 2hander/thf over 2hander/sam in which the Spike damage did not compensate for the over all DoT+WS frequency damage and actually resulted in lower over all source damage.

Only reason almace has higher all source damage is because of two factors: very strong WS and high proc rate of ODD aftermath. Alternatively, WoE version has only the WS not to mention a lower DPS base. Badeliar+3 has a base DPS of 15.50 compared to Excals 17.77, no aftermath effect, and no other additional stats/effects thus is weaker especially in all source damage. Remember DPS is based off the calculation of (Base*60)/delay. On top of that, the add effect of excal has ~5% additional activation on top of 95 weapons higher hidden activation rates at all times (2x=20%, 2.5=15%, 3x=10-12%). thus the reasoning that WoE version falls behind in all source since it only has the DPS and WS going for it and nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Sawtelle had ~176 dex and couldn't cap dDEX on a Part 1 Tier 1 VWNM, 140 dex isn't close to what's necessary. Small sample but out of 132 landed hits he only managed 9% crit rate from dDEX, which would put the weakest VWNM at around ~130 AGI.

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Unfortunately this is too low of a sample to fully determine crit rate. It would be like someone parsing DA with only 100 hits then saying "Yep, it's only ~8% activation" for war. Generally you need large samples on this to get accurate numbers. I say this because I have parsed a great deal on such things and found that you don't reach accurate rates until you have a substantial sample. While I still doubt they had capped dDex, it would probably been closer to 15~17% with a larger sample.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

Your source information, I'd like to see it. Currently you are basing what you have on "eyeball statistics" while also reaffirming what I already said about all source damage in relation to tiers(Either that or you didn't notice the initial tier was based on NO AFTERMATH DOT). And being that Aftermath is not a 100% active function of a weapon it can not be considered in all aspects, hence the reason for mentioning different tier distributions throughout my post (if you had actually read it you would have seen that). This also was stated in the event that blu actually gained the ability to use relic, thus why I said his tiering is incorrect when factoring the different aspects of the weapons in various scenarios.

Now, to look at all source damage tiering: The WoE weapon actually falls below other weapons due to the fact it has no other added effect, or aftermath effect, meaning in all source damage it drops below excal in long term. It is like the old mentality of being 2hander/thf over 2hander/sam in which the Spike damage did not compensate for the over all DoT+WS frequency damage and actually resulted in lower over all source damage.

Only reason almace has higher all source damage is because of two factors: very strong WS and high proc rate of ODD aftermath. Alternatively, WoE version has only the WS not to mention a lower DPS base. Badeliar+3 has a base DPS of 15.50 compared to Excals 17.77, no aftermath effect, and no other additional stats/effects thus is weaker especially in all source damage. Remember DPS is based off the calculation of (Base*60)/delay. On top of that, the add effect of excal has ~5% additional activation on top of 95 weapons higher hidden activation rates at all times (2x=20%, 2.5=15%, 3x=10-12%). thus the reasoning that WoE version falls behind in all source since it only has the DPS and WS going for it and nothing else.



Unfortunately this is too low of a sample to fully determine crit rate. It would be like someone parsing DA with only 100 hits then saying "Yep, it's only ~8% activation" for war. Generally you need large samples on this to get accurate numbers. I say this because I have parsed a great deal on such things and found that you don't reach accurate rates until you have a substantial sample. While I still doubt they had capped dDex, it would probably been closer to 15~17% with a larger sample.

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I know you like your Excal and all, but please stop trying to show it's better then a CDC weapon, its not, it's already been demonstrated. CDC is -that- powerful.

Also which NM and what where the testing conditions? Because from everything I've seen they do not have ridiculous stats at all. And this isn't eyeball testing either.

Also your DPS numbers are WAY off, you made the classic mistake of factoring them without accounting for fSTR. Now while I doubt Badelair will shift too much, CDC alone pretty much guarantee's it'll destroy the other ones.

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Originally Posted by Saeval

Also your DPS numbers are WAY off, you made the classic mistake of factoring them without accounting for fSTR. Now while I doubt Badelair will shift too much, CDC alone pretty much guarantee's it'll destroy the other ones.

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Did say base DPS.

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Also which NM and what where the testing conditions? Because from everything I've seen they do not have ridiculous stats at all. And this isn't eyeball testing either.

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Present your testing results and/or cite sources. At the moment the only thing I get from reading your posts is that you're a theoryfighter.

Which is accountable for nothing.

Honestly, if I knew a rdm or pld that had all 3 weapons at the 95 version I would love to parse each so that the only variable difference would be the swords and stats the swords gave. Granted WS gear would be different due to different mods, but otherwise the DoT would be near static aside from the obvious rank difference between WOE compared to relic or emp. Other than number crunches I can't get proof beyond all doubt to show why I rank WoE at 3rd compared to relic, even in a number crunch the difference shifted from 2% in favor of WOE to 4% in favor of relic in a Lower/Upper scaling. This however did not account for chance to double attack during WS which I would rather leave to a parse than pen and paper to weed out the possibility of error.

PS: I have a mandau, not an excal. I was simply running calulations and looking at parse data I had from my Almace blu compared to a Relic pld, but even that is askewed since I was dual weilding and he wasn't. Maybe I can get him on his rdm and compare it to my rdm.....I'll have to see if he even has equal gear for that.

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Originally Posted by saevel

No they don't. They have the regular stats as other NM's of their particular levels.

SE doesn't give it's monsters crazy stats, they don't eat food, wear gear or receive super buffs. Instead SE just gives them crazy powerful TP moves using 200~400 DMG weapons. +100~200 MAB, -25~50% PDT / MDT and so forth. This is how SE always does things, even inside Abyssea the NM's didn't have crazy high stats.

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Yes. They do. Every voidwatch NM can be compared to the Kirin of 75; highly inflated stats compared to other NMs of their levels. Saying that they have 120~130 or even more of critical stats wouldn't be far from the truth.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Really adds to the topic.... Really!

(Realises this doesn't add much either, meh!)

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It does, disagreeing with a baseless and idiotic assumption is adding to the conversation. He's yet to put forth any logical evidence to correspond with his claims, and thus doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

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Originally Posted by saevel

I really don't see his point, I have him blocked so I don't have to deal with his immature rantings so this might just more of the usual.

Really all you need is 50 more Dex then the target has AGI, was difficult at 75 but since then SE has added tons of amazing gear with lots of DEX on it. I usually use the Dex+10 Attack+10 atmacite along with the STR+4 AGI+4 Acc+5 Regain+2 atmacite, puts me at 150 DEX during WS. Add on Bravers for +20 on each stat puts me at 170 DEX. Monsters would need an AGI of 120~130 to bring down the crit rate. And so far not a single VWNM has this, aside from possibly Kaggan.

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ITT: Logical and factual information = immature ranting. Someone doesn't like being wrong. So basically what he's saying is that it was difficult to cap dDEX at 75, but now that SE has added new gear with DEX it's easier. News flash: they've added higher level NMs with far higher stats to go along with the new gear. You aren't getting capped dDEX on VWNMs, save maybe a few, and even that is unlikely. You're wrong, get over yourself.

For reference to go against your claims, absolutely hilarious ones btw, about SE not giving mobs high stats: Kirin has 149INT and 120VIT, a monster designed for the 75 cap who just happens to have a higher level variation in Voidwatch.

If they give DNC any more of THF's stuff I'll be climbing a clock tower with a rifle.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

If they give DNC any more of THF's stuff I'll be climbing a clock tower with a rifle.

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Last time I checked, RDM and BRD can use Mandau, so not THF onry!

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Originally Posted by Phafi

Last time I checked, RDM and BRD can use Mandau, so not THF onry!

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SE hasn't been giving BRD and RDM all of THF's stuff either.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

Honestly, if I knew a rdm or pld that had all 3 weapons at the 95 version I would love to parse each so that the only variable difference would be the swords and stats the swords gave. Granted WS gear would be different due to different mods, but otherwise the DoT would be near static aside from the obvious rank difference between WOE compared to relic or emp. Other than number crunches I can't get proof beyond all doubt to show why I rank WoE at 3rd compared to relic, even in a number crunch the difference shifted from 2% in favor of WOE to 4% in favor of relic in a Lower/Upper scaling. This however did not account for chance to double attack during WS which I would rather leave to a parse than pen and paper to weed out the possibility of error.

PS: I have a mandau, not an excal. I was simply running calulations and looking at parse data I had from my Almace blu compared to a Relic pld, but even that is askewed since I was dual weilding and he wasn't. Maybe I can get him on his rdm and compare it to my rdm.....I'll have to see if he even has equal gear for that.

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An easier way to put it in perspective, my RDM frequently does 1.5~2K CDC's on VWNM's, and I'm talking Jeuno / Outlands VWNM's here. Now these aren't "epeen" shots, their actual averages (2.6K highest on Jeuno VWNM so far). It's also how I know VWNM's don't have crazy stats, there is no way in hell a "RDM" will be putting up those numbers if the VWNM had 130/140 VIT, 130/140 AGI or crazy defense. This WS is that awesome, I can't state that enough. If there was a way to use CDC with Excal that I'm positive the Excal would win out as the best sword, but you can't. Also the aftermath's on both Excal and Tizona are activated only when you do their respective WS, meaning KoTR spam for Excal or Expacion spam for Tizona, while the ODD aftermath effect on Almace is activated using the best sword WS in the game. Effectively it can be kept up 90~100% of the time, depending on how good you are at timing WS's. We have an Excal / Aegis PLD and he doesn't touch either of the Almace PLD's (one Almace/Aegis other Almace/OChain), and they all have really good gear.

Ontopic, SE should give BLU Excal period. They should also remove all the EX and SP WS's restrictions, meaning Swift blade for BLU and "all the above" for RDM. Lastly there should be a question you can perform after completely a weapon that allows you to permanently access that WS. Meaning a PLD that had an 85 Almace could permanently learn CDC, or if they had a 75 Excal they could permanently learn KoTR. For those about to scream blood over this, they ~ALREADY~ have the weapon, they've already meet the accomplishment and earned the right to use it. This would just let them use it which whatever weapon they wanted.

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Originally Posted by saevel

An easier way to put it in perspective, my RDM frequently does 1.5~2K CDC's on VWNM's, and I'm talking Jeuno / Outlands VWNM's here.

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No it doesn't.

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Now these aren't "epeen" shots, their actual averages (2.6K highest on Jeuno VWNM so far).

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No they aren't.

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It's also how I know VWNM's don't have crazy stats, there is no way in hell a "RDM" will be putting up those numbers if the VWNM had 130/140 VIT, 130/140 AGI or crazy defense.

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No it's not. Basically what you're saying is going against what everyone who has ever played this content is saying. Your gimp melee RDM is not outdamaging actual DDs. These monsters have high stats of some description, DEF and EVA undoubtedly, and this is well documented by people far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far more credible than you.

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This WS is that awesome, I can't state that enough. If there was a way to use CDC with Excal that I'm positive the Excal would win out as the best sword, but you can't.

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Yes the weaponskill is awesome. Yes Excal would be the best sword in next to any situation if it could use CDC, it already is situationally superior to Almace.

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Also the aftermath's on both Excal and Tizona are activated only when you do their respective WS, meaning KoTR spam for Excal or Expacion spam for Tizona, while the ODD aftermath effect on Almace is activated using the best sword WS in the game.

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Excalibur's aftermath is trash, you don't need to use Knights of the Round for the 10~20% chance (don't remember exactly what it is for the sword) to deal 2.5x damage. You also don't need to use Knights of the Round to gain access to the hidden effect that deals 25% of your HP in damage. Tizona is difficult to argue for and is easily the worst of the three due to Expiacion being trash and being required for the main melee attraction of the weapon to be available, however with a Tizona you'd likely be more focused on damage from spells rather than weaponskills which opens up an entirely new reason for the weapon being worse off.

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Effectively it can be kept up 90~100% of the time, depending on how good you are at timing WS's. We have an Excal / Aegis PLD and he doesn't touch either of the Almace PLD's (one Almace/Aegis other Almace/OChain), and they all have really good gear.

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You aren't keeping Aftermath up 90~100% of the time on a VWNM, timing your weaponskills has nothing to do with it, in fact what does timing your weaponskills have to do with it even if you are allowed to be meleeing the mob 24/7? Your Excalibur PLD clearly sucks.

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Ontopic, SE should give BLU Excal period.

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Yes they should.

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They should also remove all the EX and SP WS's restrictions, meaning Swift blade for BLU and "all the above" for RDM.

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No they shouldn't.

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Lastly there should be a question you can perform after completely a weapon that allows you to permanently access that WS. Meaning a PLD that had an 85 Almace could permanently learn CDC, or if they had a 75 Excal they could permanently learn KoTR. For those about to scream blood over this, they ~ALREADY~ have the weapon, they've already meet the accomplishment and earned the right to use it. This would just let them use it which whatever weapon they wanted.

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Interesting idea but a ridiculous one. Will never happen and should never happen.

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Originally Posted by saevel

An easier way to put it in perspective, my RDM frequently does 1.5~2K CDC's on VWNM's, and I'm talking Jeuno / Outlands VWNM's here. Now these aren't "epeen" shots, their actual averages (2.6K highest on Jeuno VWNM so far). It's also how I know VWNM's don't have crazy stats, there is no way in hell a "RDM" will be putting up those numbers if the VWNM had 130/140 VIT, 130/140 AGI or crazy defense. This WS is that awesome, I can't state that enough. If there was a way to use CDC with Excal that I'm positive the Excal would win out as the best sword, but you can't. Also the aftermath's on both Excal and Tizona are activated only when you do their respective WS, meaning KoTR spam for Excal or Expacion spam for Tizona, while the ODD aftermath effect on Almace is activated using the best sword WS in the game. Effectively it can be kept up 90~100% of the time, depending on how good you are at timing WS's. We have an Excal / Aegis PLD and he doesn't touch either of the Almace PLD's (one Almace/Aegis other Almace/OChain), and they all have really good gear.

Ontopic, SE should give BLU Excal period. They should also remove all the EX and SP WS's restrictions, meaning Swift blade for BLU and "all the above" for RDM. Lastly there should be a question you can perform after completely a weapon that allows you to permanently access that WS. Meaning a PLD that had an 85 Almace could permanently learn CDC, or if they had a 75 Excal they could permanently learn KoTR. For those about to scream blood over this, they ~ALREADY~ have the weapon, they've already meet the accomplishment and earned the right to use it. This would just let them use it which whatever weapon they wanted.

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As much as I hate this card I'm playing it: Parse data and Screen shot proof cause you are clearly lying. Seriously, bring some data to back up all the steam you're blowing into this topic.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

As much as I hate this card I'm playing it: Parse data and Screen shot proof cause you are clearly lying. Seriously, bring some data to back up all the steam you're blowing into this topic.

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SS's of 1.5 ~ 2K CDC's ? Next time I'm doing VWNM's I'll do that then. Their common enough, but even I post those people here will just say I'm cherry picking / only doing it with buffs / ect.

Parse is gonna be 50/50, what exactly are you looking for? Melee average damage / accuracy / WS average is easy to get, but you need context. Temp item usage / and whether the VWNM has any special defense's and so forth.

Or are you talking Excal vs Almace? Our Excal PLD is currently on hiatus, the other two PLDs are on when we do VWNMs, so can post that info.

Is there a particular VWNM you want this from, or just whatever ones we end up doing that evening? Remember from one to another stats / special properties can vary dramatically.

ITT: Common enough = average damage

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Originally Posted by saevel

Parse is gonna be 50/50, what exactly are you looking for? Melee average damage / accuracy / WS average is easy to get, but you need context. Temp item usage / and whether the VWNM has any special defense's and so forth.

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Good for you, you picked up on the very reason for this. Temp items can come in droves, but there will be times when it won't thus making your statements false since they too are subject to situational exceptions. Temp items are not all encompassing thus become an inconstant variable on damage that places biase on otherwise standard data.

All data and calculations I performed were base statistical data with no other outside variables that couldn't be considered "constants." You based all of your argument on highly situational and biased empirical data to argue against data that can apply to any situation since it is virtually devoid of inconsistencies.

Plainly put: CdC is powerful, but alone it is not "that powerful" within constant data calculations to make a WoE weapon push a relic out of 2nd place primarily due to your biased data. It would be like a doctor performing a drug test on 8 individuals and giving 2 out of 4 of the actual test subjects something more to enhance the base drug in testing for favorable outcomes. Obviously the 2 getting the supplements will do better than the 2 without. Better context would be a war saying they can put out insane damage all the time based off sample data taken during 2hour and full buffs. Since all the statistics are not constant it is inaccurate data.

From temp items you are getting increases to your base (constant) pdif, acc, fstr, and dDex values which are not constants. Applying constant data to constant data it has been proven that VWNM do have inflated values on top of other additional constant values such as -mdt/pdt, evasion boost, accuracy boost, and other passive traits that are always active.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

Complete nonsense

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It's a freaking VWNM fight, you will have temps and you will use them. Every HV proc refils all your temps, every NQ proc gives you one random temp. With the duration of Bravers / Stalwarts being what it is, I've had fights where I had full time Bravers / Stalwarts / Ascetics. PLD's and BLU's get the exact same temps, it's a static increase for everyone thus they would see the same benefit.

And what event outside of VWNM would you possible be doing that you weren't capping many of your stats on? You do realize we're lv 95 now, Tiamat is now a EM and Kirin is a DC. There is nothing else in the game that we wouldn't be above a T unless your inside Abyssea, which happens to bring up Atma's / Crour buffs.

Trying to count VWNM without Temps / Atmacite is the same as counting Abyssea without the crour / atma buffs. Nothing but a paper exercise.

And now I see that I was correct that you were just laying a trap, you had no intention of looking at anything I posted and was already planning on springing the "you used temps!!!!" counter-argument. Of course that fact that I get 2K+ CDC's on everything else in the game just kindly slips your mind.

So tell me, what is this theoretical rock wall with infinite HP your doing your "calculations" against? Because so far, a Badelair +3 beats out a Excal / Tizona and an Almace just destroys it. Sorry that you feel all butt hurt that an easy to obtain weapon beats our a relic, take it up with SE.

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And now I see that I was correct that you were just laying a trap, you had no intention of looking at anything I posted and was already planning on springing the "you used temps!!!!"

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Fail.

I've played this game for a really long time. I've never called someone out on their poor comebacks but I've never seen something so bad as that.

That was terrible. You should be ashamed.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Arrogance

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It isn't constant variables because you are assuming they are there 100% of the time and they aren't. Reason behind that is because you will not 100% of the time hit the red proc every time due to how people build alliances for vwnm. There will always be some missing procs in the alliance. Yellow returning a random item is moot if you already have the random item for some reason and the fact it is random meaning it can try to restore Mana powder instead of a stalwarts. This alone makes it inconsistent data.

This isn't a trap, this is facts. You just don't like it because it shatters your perfect world scenario and places a bunch of "what if" scenarios that do tend to occur. Sorry you want to be an idealist and think that everything is perfect and that WoE is magically better cause it does 25~30% higher WS damage than someone who actually gears well for KoR, but I'm here chipping at your crystal ball telling you the world isn't that way.

This game is derived from mathematical computations that have shifting variables. You coming along and spouting ideal circumstance and situation doesn't change this, it only misleads those who can't bother to do the work themselves. Nothing I've said will change a persons mind about making a WoE, relic, emp, or mythic. I only put into perspective different tiering based off base statistics (weapon in base form), situational statistics (all source damage tiering), and then utilization (situation where full time melee is not possible). Each situation showed the tiering of each weapon shifted due to what was taking place in a simulated situation that was calculated out through proved mathematics or general practice.

What you are saying about a WoE weapon throws all of this out the window, and to add further insult to injury you try to say a job that has lower proficiency and well known deficiencies on the melee front is somehow transformed into a demi-god because of this weapon? Are you even listening to yourself? Do you even watch other DD to see if they are actually putting effort into what they are doing before doing comparisons? I know a aegis/excal pld also and he has an almace too, but depending on situation he has been known to actually change the sword he is using as well as use a totally different WS setup to accompany it. In situations where he can use WS as he has TP you bet he uses Almace, but in situations where Amnesia or TP resets can occur Excal comes out. I can tell you any one faced with that sort of situation would do the same give the option to do so.

As the saying goes "**** is situational, what is best in one setting is not best in all settings."

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

It isn't constant variables because you are assuming they are there 100% of the time and they aren't. Reason behind that is because you will not 100% of the time hit the red proc every time due to how people build alliances for vwnm. There will always be some missing procs in the alliance. Yellow returning a random item is moot if you already have the random item for some reason and the fact it is random meaning it can try to restore Mana powder instead of a stalwarts. This alone makes it inconsistent data.

This isn't a trap, this is facts. You just don't like it because it shatters your perfect world scenario and places a bunch of "what if" scenarios that do tend to occur. Sorry you want to be an idealist and think that everything is perfect and that WoE is magically better cause it does 25~30% higher WS damage than someone who actually gears well for KoR, but I'm here chipping at your crystal ball telling you the world isn't that way.

This game is derived from mathematical computations that have shifting variables. You coming along and spouting ideal circumstance and situation doesn't change this, it only misleads those who can't bother to do the work themselves. Nothing I've said will change a persons mind about making a WoE, relic, emp, or mythic. I only put into perspective different tiering based off base statistics (weapon in base form), situational statistics (all source damage tiering), and then utilization (situation where full time melee is not possible). Each situation showed the tiering of each weapon shifted due to what was taking place in a simulated situation that was calculated out through proved mathematics or general practice.

What you are saying about a WoE weapon throws all of this out the window, and to add further insult to injury you try to say a job that has lower proficiency and well known deficiencies on the melee front is somehow transformed into a demi-god because of this weapon? Are you even listening to yourself? Do you even watch other DD to see if they are actually putting effort into what they are doing before doing comparisons? I know a aegis/excal pld also and he has an almace too, but depending on situation he has been known to actually change the sword he is using as well as use a totally different WS setup to accompany it. In situations where he can use WS as he has TP you bet he uses Almace, but in situations where Amnesia or TP resets can occur Excal comes out. I can tell you any one faced with that sort of situation would do the same give the option to do so.

As the saying goes "**** is situational, what is best in one setting is not best in all settings."

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Umm huh ?

Listen I know your over on BG in some hate thread. And you guys are going all mental. You really might want to check your info though, not all VWNM's are Lord Varney, he's the exception not the rule. I stated that I had 140 (now 142) DEX in WS gear, that Bravers was +20 and that Atmacite was another +10 for a total of +170. That with that I was able to get 1.5~2K CDC's on VWNMs and these are average. BLU's and PLD's should be able to get more DEX and attack as they have better options. PLD's will only be single wielding though, which is something people often conveniently forget. But there is no reason a BLU shouldn't be getting higher in WS damage.

Yes I know the game is based on math ... I kinda use it alot. Your trying to alter the scenario to one where an Excal would beat out a Badelair +3, those temps and buffs you mention effect all equally, so by reducing one your just reducing the other and the relationship stays the same. These aren't what-if scenarios, it's simple, in VW you use temps, you can replenish those temps on a pretty consistent basis. Atmacite is also taken into account, although it's no where near as significant as what's in abyssea. And ... that's all. Nothing more is added or taken away.

And I never said demi-god, merely that CDC is ~that~ good, meaning any job that can use CDC would receive similar effects. Your just listening to people who really hate me and the shell I happen to be in. Their in there talking about damage on Lord Varney ... the windy T3 that's annoying even at 95. They didn't mention anything about the turtle, or the Iron Giant, or the T1/T2's. They didn't mention any of the Jeuno T1's or T2's, nor the Outlands T1/T2's. Jeuno T3's are a bit harder but I hit those numbers on the Eyeball and Pil. Haven't tried on Kaggan as I'm /SCH as support only during that annoying fight. BTW my damage sucks on Varney, just like everyone else's, LV is just annoying.

But by all means continue the hate and BG bashing. Especially find the part where your asking everyone to try to get me banned.

I don't even have an account on BG nor know what you are talking about in terms of LS, you personally, or hate mongering. I'm glad you are so vain to think as so, but what I said about WoE isn't a miscalculation on my part. The WS does not make it all-encompassingly better than relic. Period. Places it in a strong 3rd place, but isn't quite enough to nudge it into 2nd, it just isn't.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

I don't even have an account on BG nor know what you are talking about in terms of LS, you personally, or hate mongering. I'm glad you are so vain to think as so, but what I said about WoE isn't a miscalculation on my part. The WS does not make it all-encompassingly better than relic. Period. Places it in a strong 3rd place, but isn't quite enough to nudge it into 2nd, it just isn't.

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You or someone you know, either or.

And actually ... the WS is that great, do you have a CDC weapon? 5.25 worth of fTP with 60% DEX mod and likely a good +crit, or the numbers would suggest so. I wasn't exaggerating or BSing about those numbers. Then again I don't need your validation nor the validation of your friends on BG.

Excuse me? Do you have any idea what you're saying? CDC doesnt hit 2k on VWNMs, expecially the high tier ones(maybe from the first 3 paths, but jeuno/zilart paths are ridiculous. They also have stupid high AGI. Stop talking of RDM melee, you dont do the dmg you say you do, stop making up numbers.

170 DEX, level 90 Almace (D61), and lets go ahead and assume capped dSTR (+14 base damage.) So you're looking at a 161 base damage weapon. You're a Red Mage, so your Critical Attack bonus is low or nonexistent. Assuming you have initially capped Ratio and are fighting a level 100 monster, your cRatio is capped to 1.75. This still lets you hit 3.15 (capped pDIF), so lets use that as the pDIF value. You probably don't have any Triple Attack on RDM, so lets assume the maximum is two double attacks.

3.15 * 161 * 5.45 = 2764 absolute maximum damage with two double attacks and all four hits criting with maximum pDIF and an appropriate elemental gorget/belt.

At a cRatio of 1.75, your average crit pDIF will be 2.774. With 20% Double Attack in your WS set and an appropriate elemental gorget/belt, your average fTP would be 3.85. There's no way you're fSTR capped on Voidwatch NMs. Lets keep that assumption though, because Voidwatch NM stats seem to be part of the argument. Lets also keep the 100% Crit rate, for the same reasons and because we're assuming constant Champion's Tonic/Stalwart's/etc. However, lets toss in the 95% hit rate cap here just because we know it exists and we're now interested in the average.

161*2.774*3.85*.95 = 1633 Average damage

So, using math that benefits you incredibly and encompasses all of your assumptions, you're still falling short of the average you claim to have. I'll note that we've essentially assumed Voidwatch NMs are Giant Bumblebees with extra HP at this point and that you certainly aren't capping Ratio or fSTR on actual Voidwatch monsters.

Not only do you not average 2k CDCs on Voidwatch monsters, but you don't average 2k CDCs on anything outside Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by saevel

You or someone you know, either or.

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Um, no. Other than dealing with you in this topic and seeing you pounce all over an enspell miscalculation in rdm forum here I don't know who you are. Only thing of consequence to me is that you are confusing 90 versions to lvl 95 versions where WoE did fall to 3rd, but only marginally. If the WS did greater than 2x dmg all the time compared to KoR this would be the case, but it doesn't. I do have cdc, even said this before also (go you on reading) so I do know what the WS is capable of, but I also see KoR from a person who focuses on the WS when using it and know it is not extremely weak either. Situationally speaking in terms of Abyssea, yes it is stronger, but once again Abyssea is not all encompassing. The Crit nature of the WS gives it an edge in instances where Accuracy and dDex are not an issue, but the standard dot based on rank, dps, and fStr valuse is deficient in comparison with the WS. Had Relic not been augmented at 95 again (in particular the hidden activation) then what you think would be true.

Seems at this point all you can do is use vanity or weakly attack my credibility. You do not own a WoE weapon, you can not transfer experience based on Almace to WoE weapon due to Rank and dDex differences because...yes it does make that much of a difference not to mention the lack of ODD.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Excuse me? Do you have any idea what you're saying? CDC doesnt hit 2k on VWNMs, expecially the high tier ones(maybe from the first 3 paths, but jeuno/zilart paths are ridiculous. They also have stupid high AGI. Stop talking of RDM melee, you dont do the dmg you say you do, stop making up numbers.

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Ahh eventually they'd come out.

Not lieing or BSing, next time we do VWNM I'll get SS's. Although you guys will just call shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Ahh eventually they'd come out.

Not lieing or BSing, next time we do VWNM I'll get SS's. Although you guys will just call shenanigans.

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Get SS, please, i guarantee you wont hit the numbers you say you will. Also, bashing credibility of people from BG based on the fact we are from BG is a lame thing to do because it proves you arent willing to accept the fact you're wrong.