Where's our Relic...?

[Kaelthas]

Relic weapons were added around the time of 2006, which is also around the time of the ToAU expansion release date, while WoTG was released Mid-November 2007.

So here's my question: Could the ToAU and WoTG jobs get a relic at last? I could understand if Dancer and Scholar got a relic as they participated in the Great Crystal War, but Aht Urghan wasn't on the campaign map and/or they didn't really participate in the Great Crystal War.

I know that all jobs have their strengths and weaknesses, and that some jobs (like BLU for example) can overcome other jobs, be it through job abilities, magic capabilities, etc, but all jobs should have the equal respect they deserve.

Sidenote:
I know this was brought up by a few users including Sehachan from Phoenix (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11674-Relic-weapons-for-all-jobs.)
so I really don't need to say much more, but at some point during my time in FFXI I would like to at least leave the game with an achievement, namely a relic/mythic, but not one for a job I am going to rarely play cause that's just a waste of time.

[Zarchery]

I think relic weapons were around a year earlier than you stated.

[Tashan]

If anything, the most likely thing to happen would be for those jobs to be tapped onto the pre-existing weapons. For BLU that would be Excalibur, which is currently a subpar weapon to the Almace.

Why not just make an empyrean instead?

[Scuro]

Excalibur<<<< Shamshir<<< Tizona <<<<< Almace

Excalibur is just garbage tbh, I just iwhs they made Tizona extremely interesting.

[Kitkat]

Excalibur<<<< Shamshir<<< Tizona <<<<< Almace

Excalibur is just garbage tbh, I just iwhs they made Tizona extremely interesting.

Incorrect scaling, don't take this persons advice since he can't be bothered to prove why these tiers work and is still incorrect after factoring everything. Assuming that for some odd reason SE let blu use relic (highly doubtful).....

In raw dot (no aftermath state and in main hand)

#1.)Excalibur (17.77DPS+Add effect that deals slashing damage equal to 1/4 HP+ x2.5 hidden at ~15% activation rate at 95 (All additional stats do not work in offhand))
#2.)Almace (17.68DPS No other add effect without aftermath)
#3.)Tizona (15.76 DPS Occ. replenishes MP varied on dmg dealt)
#4.)Shamsir +3 (14.87 DPS no other effect)

The only exception to this is in aftermath state where Almace is granted ODD at any tp%, and only if Tizona has Lv3 Aftermath, which still doesn't raise it very high in overall source damage. In raw damage though that is when Almace and Tizona overtake Excalibur (assuming a 50/30/20 single/double/triple rate on 95 tizona aftermath).

In terms of all source damage is when Almace takes hold of first definitively. Due to the advantages of excal always active attributes compared to tizona's Aftermath requirements (use of expiacion at 300%) it comes down to situational practice on which holds 2nd. In all honesty I'd need more data to place 2nd and 3rd appropriately, but Shamsir+3 still remains dead last as it only offers +vairiable additional stats/effect depending on which you made. This even assumes a blu using spells as supplemental damage in a melee capable situation since the occ mp return on tizona overshadows +stat mods in the long haul also.

The exception to this statement only comes if the blu can not actually melee, then +att/hidden/add effects/aftermath all go out the window and it comes down to which gives stats for casting spells straight out where both tizona and excalibur will fall dead last leaving almace and shamshir in the lead due to +stats. This is the only conclusion I can come up to for excal being dead last on his list, but even then tizona would be right there with it.

[saevel]

Incorrect scaling, don't take this persons advice since he can't be bothered to prove why these tiers work and is still incorrect after factoring everything. Assuming that for some odd reason SE let blu use relic (highly doubtful).....

In raw dot (no aftermath state and in main hand)

#1.)Excalibur (17.77DPS+Add effect that deals slashing damage equal to 1/4 HP+ x2.5 hidden at ~15% activation rate at 95 (All additional stats do not work in offhand))
#2.)Almace (17.68DPS No other add effect without aftermath)
#3.)Tizona (15.76 DPS Occ. replenishes MP varied on dmg dealt)
#4.)Shamsir +3 (14.87 DPS no other effect)

The only exception to this is in aftermath state where Almace is granted ODD at any tp%, and only if Tizona has Lv3 Aftermath, which still doesn't raise it very high in overall source damage. In raw damage though that is when Almace and Tizona overtake Excalibur (assuming a 50/30/20 single/double/triple rate on 95 tizona aftermath).

In terms of all source damage is when Almace takes hold of first definitively. Due to the advantages of excal always active attributes compared to tizona's Aftermath requirements (use of expiacion at 300%) it comes down to situational practice on which holds 2nd. In all honesty I'd need more data to place 2nd and 3rd appropriately, but Shamsir+3 still remains dead last as it only offers +vairiable additional stats/effect depending on which you made. This even assumes a blu using spells as supplemental damage in a melee capable situation since the occ mp return on tizona overshadows +stat mods in the long haul also.

The exception to this statement only comes if the blu can not actually melee, then +att/hidden/add effects/aftermath all go out the window and it comes down to which gives stats for casting spells straight out where both tizona and excalibur will fall dead last leaving almace and shamshir in the lead due to +stats. This is the only conclusion I can come up to for excal being dead last on his list, but even then tizona would be right there with it.

He had mostly correct scaling, I'm not sure about Tizona compared to Excal as they can't be used on the same jobs. But Almace DESTROYS every other sword in the game, hands down no question asked. The actual scaling should be
Almace > Badelair > everything else.

The reason for this is CDC. CDC is one of the best WS's you can get for a few reasons. First being its 4.25 (2.25 + 2) worth of fTP without off hand, with off hand your talking 5.25 worth of fTP. Next the WSC is 60% DEX and it's a critical hit WS. As you stack DEX your dDEX goes up, once you pass +40 (40 higher then targets AGI) the next 10 DEX will give you 1% crit rate each, thus its easy to cap crit rate using a DEX WS.

Put all these together and CDC smash's anything vorpal, KoTR or Expacion can do, the difference is so great that it easily makes up for the add effect on Excal. That add effect btw has a low proc rate, really low as in 5% low. The ODD on Almace you can keep up by spamming the best sword WS in the game, thus it needs to be accounted for.

That all being said, BLU should of been added to Excal out of principal.

And honestly, all the special WS's should be made permanently available through quests you do after obtaining the weapon.

[Kitkat]

He had mostly correct scaling, I'm not sure about Tizona compared to Excal as they can't be used on the same jobs. But Almace DESTROYS every other sword in the game, hands down no question asked. The actual scaling should be
Almace > Badelair > everything else.

The reason for this is CDC. CDC is one of the best WS's you can get for a few reasons. First being its 4.25 (2.25 + 2) worth of fTP without off hand, with off hand your talking 5.25 worth of fTP. Next the WSC is 60% DEX and it's a critical hit WS. As you stack DEX your dDEX goes up, once you pass +40 (40 higher then targets AGI) the next 10 DEX will give you 1% crit rate each, thus its easy to cap crit rate using a DEX WS.

Put all these together and CDC smash's anything vorpal, KoTR or Expacion can do, the difference is so great that it easily makes up for the add effect on Excal. That add effect btw has a low proc rate, really low as in 5% low. The ODD on Almace you can keep up by spamming the best sword WS in the game, thus it needs to be accounted for.

That all being said, BLU should of been added to Excal out of principal.

And honestly, all the special WS's should be made permanently available through quests you do after obtaining the weapon.

Your source information, I'd like to see it. Currently you are basing what you have on "eyeball statistics" while also reaffirming what I already said about all source damage in relation to tiers(Either that or you didn't notice the initial tier was based on NO AFTERMATH DOT). And being that Aftermath is not a 100% active function of a weapon it can not be considered in all aspects, hence the reason for mentioning different tier distributions throughout my post (if you had actually read it you would have seen that). This also was stated in the event that blu actually gained the ability to use relic, thus why I said his tiering is incorrect when factoring the different aspects of the weapons in various scenarios.

Now, to look at all source damage tiering: The WoE weapon actually falls below other weapons due to the fact it has no other added effect, or aftermath effect, meaning in all source damage it drops below excal in long term. It is like the old mentality of being 2hander/thf over 2hander/sam in which the Spike damage did not compensate for the over all DoT+WS frequency damage and actually resulted in lower over all source damage.

Only reason almace has higher all source damage is because of two factors: very strong WS and high proc rate of ODD aftermath. Alternatively, WoE version has only the WS not to mention a lower DPS base. Badeliar+3 has a base DPS of 15.50 compared to Excals 17.77, no aftermath effect, and no other additional stats/effects thus is weaker especially in all source damage. Remember DPS is based off the calculation of (Base*60)/delay. On top of that, the add effect of excal has ~5% additional activation on top of 95 weapons higher hidden activation rates at all times (2x=20%, 2.5=15%, 3x=10-12%). thus the reasoning that WoE version falls behind in all source since it only has the DPS and WS going for it and nothing else.

Sawtelle had ~176 dex and couldn't cap dDEX on a Part 1 Tier 1 VWNM, 140 dex isn't close to what's necessary. Small sample but out of 132 landed hits he only managed 9% crit rate from dDEX, which would put the weakest VWNM at around ~130 AGI.

Unfortunately this is too low of a sample to fully determine crit rate. It would be like someone parsing DA with only 100 hits then saying "Yep, it's only ~8% activation" for war. Generally you need large samples on this to get accurate numbers. I say this because I have parsed a great deal on such things and found that you don't reach accurate rates until you have a substantial sample. While I still doubt they had capped dDex, it would probably been closer to 15~17% with a larger sample.

[saevel]

Your source information, I'd like to see it. Currently you are basing what you have on "eyeball statistics" while also reaffirming what I already said about all source damage in relation to tiers(Either that or you didn't notice the initial tier was based on NO AFTERMATH DOT). And being that Aftermath is not a 100% active function of a weapon it can not be considered in all aspects, hence the reason for mentioning different tier distributions throughout my post (if you had actually read it you would have seen that). This also was stated in the event that blu actually gained the ability to use relic, thus why I said his tiering is incorrect when factoring the different aspects of the weapons in various scenarios.

Now, to look at all source damage tiering: The WoE weapon actually falls below other weapons due to the fact it has no other added effect, or aftermath effect, meaning in all source damage it drops below excal in long term. It is like the old mentality of being 2hander/thf over 2hander/sam in which the Spike damage did not compensate for the over all DoT+WS frequency damage and actually resulted in lower over all source damage.

Only reason almace has higher all source damage is because of two factors: very strong WS and high proc rate of ODD aftermath. Alternatively, WoE version has only the WS not to mention a lower DPS base. Badeliar+3 has a base DPS of 15.50 compared to Excals 17.77, no aftermath effect, and no other additional stats/effects thus is weaker especially in all source damage. Remember DPS is based off the calculation of (Base*60)/delay. On top of that, the add effect of excal has ~5% additional activation on top of 95 weapons higher hidden activation rates at all times (2x=20%, 2.5=15%, 3x=10-12%). thus the reasoning that WoE version falls behind in all source since it only has the DPS and WS going for it and nothing else.



Unfortunately this is too low of a sample to fully determine crit rate. It would be like someone parsing DA with only 100 hits then saying "Yep, it's only ~8% activation" for war. Generally you need large samples on this to get accurate numbers. I say this because I have parsed a great deal on such things and found that you don't reach accurate rates until you have a substantial sample. While I still doubt they had capped dDex, it would probably been closer to 15~17% with a larger sample.

I know you like your Excal and all, but please stop trying to show it's better then a CDC weapon, its not, it's already been demonstrated. CDC is -that- powerful.

Also which NM and what where the testing conditions? Because from everything I've seen they do not have ridiculous stats at all. And this isn't eyeball testing either.

Also your DPS numbers are WAY off, you made the classic mistake of factoring them without accounting for fSTR. Now while I doubt Badelair will shift too much, CDC alone pretty much guarantee's it'll destroy the other ones.

[Atomic_Skull]

If they give DNC any more of THF's stuff I'll be climbing a clock tower with a rifle.

[Phafi]

If they give DNC any more of THF's stuff I'll be climbing a clock tower with a rifle.

Last time I checked, RDM and BRD can use Mandau, so not THF onry!