[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

People don't shout for SAMs because they're a dime a dozen. The second best weapon for the job drops from an event that takes 20 minutes with a bad group.

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Originally Posted by Maikeru_Sylph

All I ever see are people wanting to nerf SAM, but SAM is hardly ever shouted for, especially for high-tier battlefields. I will admit SAM is powerful, but their strength lies in skillchaining and that alone should show people how important it is to SC+ MB again. SE is trying to get people to do that again, but people seem too lazy to do it. I think other things need to be taken into consideration like Tsurumaru. Also, if SAM should be nerfed then it should also come 3-fold, including RNG and MNK. I know people don't want to nerf RNG again, but the job requires no skill to play and ranged weaponskills shouldn't ignore DEF. The future seems to be full of high-tier battlefields and the only DD getting invited is RNG.

SE needs to stop and think about how they can make other DD jobs just as useful as these jobs. If they don't want to buff their damage capabilities, then they need to increase their support capabilities. SMN, for instance, could use a huge buff on Wards (and Avatar's Favor is not how to go about it). DNC, in another example, can do a lot of different things, but other jobs do it more efficiently. There needs to be something that makes a DNC stand out, and it's not TP-based healing. Ain't no one got time for TP-based healing (unless you're soloing)! Start by buffing the hell out of Haste Samba. Everyone loves that. Go ahead, break it. Make these support capabilities as good as BRD.

Cap on Enmity? I don't even know where your head was at SE. Simple solution for tanks is to remove it. In fact, do it right now and make an announcement about it.

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Unless we're playing a different game, I'm fairly certain that ppl /shout for SAM more than MNK and RNG.

The concept of SC worked in FFXI in 2003, but it certainly doesn't work NOW cuz DD gain TP faster than their WS animation. If having 2 DD ended up doing less dmg than 1 DD solo SC, something is wrong with the design. If you're picking DD jobs because of their access to WS, instead of that job's ability to do dmg, something is wrong. Having SC doing this much dmg, severally limited the amount of choice we can make when it comes to pt set up and choosing WS/playstyle.

The era of everyone coordinating for SC+MB is gone, just let it go already. Unless SE nerf DD TP speed back to 2003 era, I don't see how it can work.

As for RNG, RNG is a one trick pony, you either use it when you feel like you need it(too afraid to wipe with PUG in BC I mean), or you don't invite RNG at all, let's just leave it alone.

MNK is just fine.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I don't think Samurais need a nerf either.

They are capable of extremely high burst damage - no doubt about it. But due precisely to the enmity cap you mention I think that helps keep them in check and from becoming over-powered.

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Dale, if you don't do endgame or only do endgame on DD PLD, can you please don't make comment about this issue? Sorry I know I sound offensive, but I'm just stating a fact.....the fact that you talk about enmity cap and SAM in the same topic shows that you were focusing on the wrong side of the argument and it's not fixing the job balance issue at all.

The fact is, SAM is just THAT ahead of other DD, AND the SC mechanics is preventing other players to play other DD job even if there's a pt spot open.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

People don't shout for SAMs because they're a dime a dozen. The second best weapon for the job drops from an event that takes 20 minutes with a bad group.

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The 2nd best weapon for the job takes 20 min to get isn't even the issue, most job's 2nd best weapon are just as easy, or almost just as easy.

SAM using the 2nd best weapon still beats other mythic DD is the issue.

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Originally Posted by Dale

But the situation you describe seems more like an example of a well-organized strategy using high burst damage coupled with well-timed stuns. It doesn't seem like the abuse of a over-powered job to me.

The enmity cap is still a factor because that's why you have to bring stuns in the first place. So the Samurai doesn't die from auto attacks in the aftermath of a nasty TP move. So I don't see any problem with this.

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None of the event in this game needs stun to clear with a SAM, enmity cap isn't the reason. Stuns makes thing faster, that's why ppl bring stuns..

Again, this issue has nothing to do with enmity cap, stuns nor zerging. It's just simple math and experience showing that SAM is that far ahead of other DDs.

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Originally Posted by Afania

None of the event in this game needs stun to clear with a SAM, enmity cap isn't the reason. Stuns makes thing faster, that's why ppl bring stuns..

Again, this issue has nothing to do with enmity cap, stuns nor zerging. It's just simple math and experience showing that SAM is that far ahead of other DDs.

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God I wish this were true because I'd love to do delve without shouting for SCH or even going SCH myself. People can't beat Tojil without stun. It's been proven time and time again. I feel like I'm on some magical, non-existent server because people don't beat delve on my server without stun and sure as hell don't clear the entire zone in 20 mins.

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Originally Posted by Maikeru_Sylph

God I wish this were true because I'd love to do delve without shouting for SCH or even going SCH myself. People can't beat Tojil without stun. It's been proven time and time again. I feel like I'm on some magical, non-existent server because people don't beat delve on my server without stun and sure as hell don't clear the entire zone in 20 mins.

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You can change server! :D

there are a decent number of jobs where the second best weapon isnt a 20 min affair, and what byrth means on sams is you dont shout for them, because you ask your ls and like 20 people / . @Maikeru yea i have never beat a tojil without a stuner but i had a group at one point that are average time was 15 mins and had one run take only 13 mins (mnk drk blu whm brd rdm[before haste2 btw]), mind you, this was an op crew, and not a random pug group.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

People don't shout for SAMs because they're a dime a dozen. The second best weapon for the job drops from an event that takes 20 minutes with a bad group.

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No the reason they are a dime a dozen is because SAM the most facerollingest faceroll job in the entire game.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Dale, if you don't do endgame or only do endgame on DD PLD, can you please don't make comment about this issue? Sorry I know I sound offensive, but I'm just stating a fact.....the fact that you talk about enmity cap and SAM in the same topic shows that you were focusing on the wrong side of the argument and it's not fixing the job balance issue at all.

The fact is, SAM is just THAT ahead of other DD, AND the SC mechanics is preventing other players to play other DD job even if there's a pt spot open..

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You don't know what activities I do on the game Afania. So can you please not make a comment about that issue? And I certainly don't only do endgame on DD paladin. Though DD paladins are capable of doing endgame activities if they want to. Sorry if I sound offensive, but I'm just stating a fact. :)

We've already gone over this, but the only thing keeping other DD jobs from party spots are players like you who treat video games like a business rather the entertainment it's suppose to be. Because I do endgame content all the time without samurais in the group.

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Originally Posted by Afania

None of the event in this game needs stun to clear with a SAM, enmity cap isn't the reason. Stuns makes thing faster, that's why ppl bring stuns..

Again, this issue has nothing to do with enmity cap, stuns nor zerging. It's just simple math and experience showing that SAM is that far ahead of other DDs.

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People bring stuns for the obvious reason - to stun things. I suppose you can argue they bring them to make things faster in the sense people aren't dying or needing the extra heals/support as a result. But I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said.

Not everything is about math and doing the most damage. There are other elements of the game at play. Such as enmity/defense and simply staying alive. You act as if Samurais can just waltz up to anything on this game and unload its full damage potential without having to worry about staying alive as a result. But that hasn't been my experience and they just aren't this god class you make them out to be. But who knows, maybe I just haven't met the right one. Because again: in my experience a reckless Samurai requires a lot of support to keep alive and if it isn't played smartly all that damage you speak of can quickly become a burden on the group rather than an asset.

That was the point I was trying to make in regards to enmity.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

WAR/DNC with dual axes (in which case he's nerfing himself)

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BST/DNC with dual axes and the best DD pet available

Both using Ruinator. Both using essentially the same gear. I guarantee you that the WAR wins every time. Now compare the BST to a WAR going all out with GA and /SAM. The WAR wins by an even greater margin. The BST doesn't have the DPS tools that the WAR has and the pet doesn't make up the difference.

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I'm not sure what you mean when you say the WAR wins every time? Wins in what way?

If you are referring to damage, what does that matter? Just because a duel wielding warrior with a pair of axes can do more damage than duel wielding Beastmaster with a pair of axes doesn't mean the beastmaster doesn't contribute to a group. It still brings some offense to the group with the added benefit of a pet which can come in handy. For example: I've done a few AA fights where the beastmaster pet saved us from a wipe.

I don't understand why everything needs to be viewed in the context of who can do the most damage.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I'm not sure what you mean when you say the WAR wins every time? Wins in what way?

If you are referring to damage, what does that matter? Just because a duel wielding warrior with a pair of axes can do more damage than duel wielding Beastmaster with a pair of axes doesn't mean the beastmaster doesn't contribute to a group. It still brings some offense to the group with the added benefit of a pet which can come in handy. For example: I've done a few AA fights where the beastmaster pet saved us from a wipe.

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You claimed that a job that can solo can hold its own in group play, and that simply isn't the case. Now I get that "holding its own" is subjective, but when your job's sole purpose is DPS and even at your best you are orders of magnitude behind someone half-assing another job then something is terribly wrong in my opinion.

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I don't understand why everything needs to be viewed in the context of who can do the most damage.

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Because that is what the job is there for. To not simply do damage, but to do the most damage possible.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

You claimed that a job that can solo can hold its own in group play, and that simply isn't the case. Now I get that "holding its own" is subjective, but when your job's sole purpose is DPS and even at your best you are orders of magnitude behind someone half-assing another job then something is terribly wrong in my opinion.



Because that is what the job is there for. To not simply do damage, but to do the most damage possible.

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But it is the case as I see it. I have a friend who plays a beastmaster and he holds his own just fine when we group. He even uses his pet from time to time as I pointed out to off-tank for us, which comes in handy.

When did it become so important to do as much damage as possible? As long as you win the fight that's what matters. Who cares if another job can do more damage. If you're having fun while winning that is by far more important.

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Originally Posted by Dale

But it is the case as I see it. I have a friend who plays a beastmaster and he holds his own just fine when we group. He even uses his pet from time to time as I pointed out to off-tank for us, which comes in handy.

When did it become so important to do as much damage as possible? As long as you win the fight that's what matters. Who cares if another job can do more damage. If you're having fun while winning that is by far more important.

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Because very few people have friends who will let them come to endgame on a pet job.
Any job can solo nowadays; SE needs to quit holding back on pet job changes out of some irrational fear of them becoming OP.

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Originally Posted by Mitruya

Because very few people have friends who will let them come to endgame on a pet job.
Any job can solo nowadays; SE needs to quit holding back on pet job changes out of some irrational fear of them becoming OP.

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I understand your point - but the benefits of having a pet are not only useful when solo. As I explained earlier, those pets make good off-tanks and that can assist a group as well. I've had a losing battlefield saved due to a beastmaster pet.

Besides: why is there this belief that doing more damage makes someone OP anyway. Why? Some players like to stand out and do the more damage than others. So I see no reason why a job like that can't be available. People are exaggerating the importance of doing more damage in my opinion. It's not that big of a deal and I've yet to see a Samurai I would consider over-powered.

Your initial point is well-taken but that's not SE's fault and they can't fix a stubborn and misguided player mentality. The truth is you do not need maximum damage to do the content on this game. So SE has already done their part to combat this problem by virtue of the game's design. Players should instead shun these players who are so picky about who they play with and obsess over minor details on a video game. Because they are the real issue here. It's not that Samurais can do more damage than a Beastmaster.

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Originally Posted by Dale

You don't know what activities I do on the game Afania. So can you please not make a comment about that issue? And I certainly don't only do endgame on DD paladin. Though DD paladins are capable of doing endgame activities if they want to. Sorry if I sound offensive, but I'm just stating a fact. :)

We've already gone over this, but the only thing keeping other DD jobs from party spots are players like you who treat video games like a business rather the entertainment it's suppose to be. Because I do endgame content all the time without samurais in the group.

People bring stuns for the obvious reason - to stun things. I suppose you can argue they bring them to make things faster in the sense people aren't dying or needing the extra heals/support as a result. But I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said.

Not everything is about math and doing the most damage. There are other elements of the game at play. Such as enmity/defense and simply staying alive. You act as if Samurais can just waltz up to anything on this game and unload its full damage potential without having to worry about staying alive as a result. But that hasn't been my experience and they just aren't this god class you make them out to be. But who knows, maybe I just haven't met the right one. Because again: in my experience a reckless Samurai requires a lot of support to keep alive and if it isn't played smartly all that damage you speak of can quickly become a burden on the group rather than an asset.

That was the point I was trying to make in regards to enmity.

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Again you're focusing on the wrong side of argument, I'm not sure why's indiviual's POV toward playing FFXI is even relevant in this discussion....it doesn't matter if the player treat the game like a business or entertainment, the bloody fact is that SAM does a hell lot more dmg than other DD, AND other jobs DD with a SAM LOWERs pt output. This is just flawed from game design POV.

Again, this is a game design discussion. It seems that you feel that as long as you're having fun, it doesn't matter if the game mechanic is flawed. If you feel that way, then you shouldn't even comment. Because this issue isn't affecting you, but it's affecting everyone else. If I'm the only one experiencing this issue, we won't even see 20 pages of argument in another thread regarding job balance.

Emnity/defense isn't relevant in this discussion at all, personal play style isn't relevant in this discussion as well. This discussion is about math and game design, if you don't want to talk about math and game design, then you're focusing on the wrong side of the argument. Your personal experience and how you do event is completely irrelevant here.

Again, if all the argument you want to make is "SAM is just fine because I do endgame content without SAM just fine, and SAM dies when you use them anyways", then you're focusing on the wrong side of the argument.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I understand your point - but the benefits of having a pet are not only useful when solo. As I explained earlier, those pets make good off-tanks and that can assist a group as well. I've had a losing battlefield saved due to a beastmaster pet.

Besides: why is there this belief that doing more damage makes someone OP anyway. Why? Some players like to stand out and do the more damage than others. So I see no reason why a job like that can't be available. People are exaggerating the importance of doing more damage in my opinion. It's not that big of a deal and I've yet to see a Samurai I would consider over-powered.

Your initial point is well-taken but that's not SE's fault and they can't fix a stubborn and misguided player mentality. The truth is you do not need maximum damage to do the content on this game. So SE has already done their part to combat this problem by virtue of the game's design. Players should instead shun these players who are so picky about who they play with and obsess over minor details on a video game. Because they are the real issue here. It's not that Samurais can do more damage than a Beastmaster.

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I agree that player mentality has a lot to do with it.
I disagree that SE is faultless in the way the jobs are designed. There have been reports on this forum and others of non-traditional jobs taking on content and they really struggle, now matter how good and well-geared they are.

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Originally Posted by Mitruya

I agree that player mentality has a lot to do with it.
I disagree that SE is faultless in the way the jobs are designed. There have been reports on this forum and others of non-traditional jobs taking on content and they really struggle, now matter how good and well-geared they are.

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Let me put it this way, if a job doesn't get invite because it's 10% behind SAM, I agree that it's "player mentality" issue. It's extremely hard to balance each job to do exactly the same dmg, 10% behind another job is acceptable.

If a job LOWERs party output when it tries to engage and DD with another SAM, then something is seriously wrong with the design.....that means 1 person can do the work of 2 ppl, the gap is extremely huge in this case.

IMO, it's not a good idea to just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away, that's not solving the problem.

That's why I had to call Dale out, cuz apparently he's shifting focus......if we pointed out something wrong with the game design, he'd just said "But I do event without this job all the time just fine, it's your own problem if you want to play the game like that!", how is that even doing anything to the discussion?

The point is that there's something wrong with the job balance when it comes to SAM and SC, we just pointed that out, and we continue to make threads about it, then Dale just pops on the forum blaming the player about this. Unfortunately, unless the entire server's full of Dale who doesn't invite SAM to events, it will continue to be a job balance issue that we can't ignore.

I agree. It's not just a player issue. SE does hold responsibility for job design, and the battle content that certain jobs just can't handle.

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Originally Posted by Dale

But it is the case as I see it. I have a friend who plays a beastmaster and he holds his own just fine when we group. He even uses his pet from time to time as I pointed out to off-tank for us, which comes in handy.

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Your anecdote is not the reality that the rest of us face. Your friends are not the norm. Just because things are fine for your friend that does not mean things are fine. The rest of have to play in a far more competitive and results driven environment than you do. I don't mean that to be insulting, I'm just pointing out the stark reality the rest of us face.

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When did it become so important to do as much damage as possible?

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When the DPS/DD class was invented.

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As long as you win the fight that's what matters. Who cares if another job can do more damage. If you're having fun while winning that is by far more important.

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Unfortunately you're in the vast minority with that line of thinking. But honestly what would be so bad if it were both? What if I could have fun playing the job of my choice AND do the same amount of damage as another job? Why does it have to be either or? That's my question. Why can't a BST and her pet be just as strong as a WAR or SAM or MNK? What would be the harm in that?

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Unfortunately you're in the vast minority with that line of thinking. But honestly what would be so bad if it were both? What if I could have fun playing the job of my choice AND do the same amount of damage as another job? Why does it have to be either or? That's my question. Why can't a BST and her pet be just as strong as a WAR or SAM or MNK? What would be the harm in that?

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I wanted to hit the like button repeatedly for this paragraph.

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Originally Posted by Mitruya

Because very few people have friends who will let them come to endgame on a pet job.
Any job can solo nowadays; SE needs to quit holding back on pet job changes out of some irrational fear of them becoming OP.

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It's not really an irrational fear. Pet jobs at one point were pretty op. I'm pretty sure the incremental pet job updates is because they don't want to get back to the point where a single pet job could solo any endgame content. It's not like they are making no effort on improving pet jobs.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Unfortunately you're in the vast minority with that line of thinking. But honestly what would be so bad if it were both? What if I could have fun playing the job of my choice AND do the same amount of damage as another job? Why does it have to be either or? That's my question. Why can't a BST and her pet be just as strong as a WAR or SAM or MNK? What would be the harm in that?

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I guess that depends on if you want to be as strong as just a WAR, SAM, or MNK. Or be as strong as them when they have an entire back line supporting them.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Your anecdote is not the reality that the rest of us face. Your friends are not the norm. Just because things are fine for your friend that does not mean things are fine. The rest of have to play in a far more competitive and results driven environment than you do. I don't mean that to be insulting, I'm just pointing out the stark reality the rest of us face.



When the DPS/DD class was invented.



Unfortunately you're in the vast minority with that line of thinking. But honestly what would be so bad if it were both? What if I could have fun playing the job of my choice AND do the same amount of damage as another job? Why does it have to be either or? That's my question. Why can't a BST and her pet be just as strong as a WAR or SAM or MNK? What would be the harm in that?

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It's only the reality because people allow it to be though. You can get results on this game without having to play the strongest DPS jobs.

But to answer your question - it wouldn't be no harm. I see no problem with a beastmaster along with their pet being able to match a warrior in terms of damage. But the fact is it doesn't really matter even if they did. People would still find a reason to exclude certain jobs. Even if they were to make every single DD job do the exact same damage they would still come up with some bs reason to exclude certain jobs. That's the part of my argument that is being missed here.

Players who are actively looking for an excuse to exclude other players are going to find one. Damage output is just an excuse they use. So if SE starts down that road of trying to appease players like that it will ruin this game. I am 100% confident of that because I've seen it happen on so many others games.

In other words: SE can't fix this problem. No amount of job balance will ever fix this problem. I've seen other games try - with a constant state of nerfing and buffing over a period of many years and still I read the exact same thing from these types of players how this job sucks because of this and that and this job is over-powered because of this and that. It's just never-ending and there is no solution except not to pay these types of players any mind.

Which games are those and exactly what was done?

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Which games are those and exactly what was done?

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World of Warcraft if you want a more popular example. That game actually used to have class diversity and interesting and unique ways to play your class. But due to exactly this kind of mentality we are discussing I watched as that game was basically butchered and everything was nerfed and buffed to the point of boredom to appease these types of players.

You wouldn't know it to look at it now, but that game used to have a wide range of different support classes and play-styles. But they were all destroyed because they didn't do enough damage to satisfy those players who see everything in terms of DPS DPS DPS. And it would be tragic to see a similar result happen here.

A perfect balance is never going to happen. Nor should it in my opinion. Imbalance is part of what makes the gameplay interesting and sets classes apart from each other to begin with.

Of course no game is perfect, and improvements can always be made. And I'm not saying I wouldn't support improvements to the beastmaster. But these players who demand the most damage else they won't even group with you are just being completely unreasonable. And if you try to satisfy them, the game will suffer as a result. Because they will never be satisfied and they are always going to say certain jobs suck and not group with them no matter what SE does.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Let me put it this way, if a job doesn't get invite because it's 10% behind SAM, I agree that it's "player mentality" issue. It's extremely hard to balance each job to do exactly the same dmg, 10% behind another job is acceptable.

If a job LOWERs party output when it tries to engage and DD with another SAM, then something is seriously wrong with the design.....that means 1 person can do the work of 2 ppl, the gap is extremely huge in this case.

IMO, it's not a good idea to just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away, that's not solving the problem.

That's why I had to call Dale out, cuz apparently he's shifting focus......if we pointed out something wrong with the game design, he'd just said "But I do event without this job all the time just fine, it's your own problem if you want to play the game like that!", how is that even doing anything to the discussion?

The point is that there's something wrong with the job balance when it comes to SAM and SC, we just pointed that out, and we continue to make threads about it, then Dale just pops on the forum blaming the player about this. Unfortunately, unless the entire server's full of Dale who doesn't invite SAM to events, it will continue to be a job balance issue that we can't ignore.

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You can call me out if you wish. But I remain convinced that is a player mentality issue to blame for people feeling as if they don't contribute to a group rather than some grave imbalance.

I routinely beat endgame content with jobs like dragoons and beastmasters on this game. If there was really such a huge flaw in this game's design that makes these jobs not even worth a spot in a group, then that would not be possible.. And I know you don't like when I use that argument - but it's the truth as I see it. So that's why I keep using it.

I never meant to imply I didn't invite Samurais to events either. I can however do endgame content without them. You do not need samurais. You can be successful with or without them. That was my point.

Arguing for change is one thing. But believing your job is just so awful it doesn't even contribute and doesn't deserve an invite is another. That is what I blame the player mentality for - causing people to feel that way about their jobs. And that is why I felt the need to just pop in.

Also: I should point out I gave my reasons as to why I didn't think a Samurai was over-powered. None of them reasons had to do with the player mentality. So I don't think you are being fair to me by when you say I just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away. That's not what I did.

Saying that only a select few jobs can enjoy content is the same as saying only a select few players can enjoy content. Yes, everyone can level every job to 99, and therefore enjoy all the content, but what about the new players? Or people that just don't find certain jobs fun or appealing? Should they be forced to play something they don't enjoy? The moment you start doing something you don't enjoy, boredom kicks in, and too much boredom can lead to quitting. If SE's goal is to make this game more player friendly, then isn't expecting every player to have every job at 99, defeating the purpose? Leveling, gearing, meriting, skilling up, and learning every job is not an easy task, especially for new players. You're looking at months, maybe years of work. And the community expects so much from you. When you stop to think about it, this game is far from being new player friendly.

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Originally Posted by Maikeru_Sylph

Saying that only a select few jobs can enjoy content is the same as saying only a select few players can enjoy content. Yes, everyone can level every job to 99, and therefore enjoy all the content, but what about the new players? Or people that just don't find certain jobs fun or appealing? Should they be forced to play something they don't enjoy? The moment you start doing something you don't enjoy, boredom kicks in, and too much boredom can lead to quitting. If SE's goal is to make this game more player friendly, then isn't expecting every player to have every job at 99, defeating the purpose? Leveling, gearing, meriting, skilling up, and learning every job is not an easy task, especially for new players. You're looking at months, maybe years of work. And the community expects so much from you. When you stop to think about it, this game is far from being new player friendly.

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As a new player, these have been my thoughts as well. It's really disheartening to hear about how some classes are basically excluded from most of the interesting grouping activities in the game later on and that "playing just for fun" seems more like a minority POV in the game. Naturally, quite a few of the jobs that interest me the most fall into that niche and the more I play, the more the prospect of playing alone in the later levels gnaws at me. Simply put, I'm not going to play a job I don't like, and if that means I end up mainly playing alone and miss out on a bunch of stuff, then so be it -- despite how much that might suck.

Although I agree that some of this falls on the developers with class balance and whatnot, I'd also have to agree with Dale that a lot of it is due to player mentality too. The game has quite a steep hill to climb for new players with all the things you need to do to catch up with everyone (that part doesn't bother me at all, honestly) but I think the biggest barrier of entry by far is this veteran player base that seems (from what I constantly read around here) to have no patience with inexperienced players. When a game gets to be this old, and the player base obviously starts shrinking, the last thing you want to do is perpetuate an almost toxic environment that excludes the few new players that might have otherwise stuck around. Like it or not, playing a game like an efficient business essentially -- one of which basically tells people they have to play this one certain way or to GTFO -- is probably going to do more damage to the longevity of the game than anything else. No amount of DPS balance is ever going to change that counter-productive, detrimental attitude (IMO).

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Originally Posted by Seillan

No amount of DPS balance is ever going to change that counter-productive, detrimental attitude (IMO).

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Exactly. You managed to say what I was trying to say in 2 pages in one sentence. Thank you :)

Did you know Zeid "outparses" Noillurie with the same buffs?

Just some fun food for thought comparing DPS of two different jobs without any additives. (Yes, I know it's not exactly the same as PCs and he's not a proper scythe DRK either.)

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Originally Posted by Seillan

As a new player, these have been my thoughts as well. It's really disheartening to hear about how some classes are basically excluded from most of the interesting grouping activities in the game later on and that "playing just for fun" seems more like a minority POV in the game. Naturally, quite a few of the jobs that interest me the most fall into that niche and the more I play, the more the prospect of playing alone in the later levels gnaws at me. Simply put, I'm not going to play a job I don't like, and if that means I end up mainly playing alone and miss out on a bunch of stuff, then so be it -- despite how much that might suck.

Although I agree that some of this falls on the developers with class balance and whatnot, I'd also have to agree with Dale that a lot of it is due to player mentality too. The game has quite a steep hill to climb for new players with all the things you need to do to catch up with everyone (that part doesn't bother me at all, honestly) but I think the biggest barrier of entry by far is this veteran player base that seems (from what I constantly read around here) to have no patience with inexperienced players. When a game gets to be this old, and the player base obviously starts shrinking, the last thing you want to do is perpetuate an almost toxic environment that excludes the few new players that might have otherwise stuck around. Like it or not, playing a game like an efficient business essentially -- one of which basically tells people they have to play this one certain way or to GTFO -- is probably going to do more damage to the longevity of the game than anything else. No amount of DPS balance is ever going to change that counter-productive, detrimental attitude (IMO).

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And this is so very well said. I agree with it very much. There are improvements that could be made to better "balance" jobs with their respective base function, but there is definitely a player mentality barrier involved as well. Unfortunately it is much easier for people to see number totals than the other benefits a DPS job could bring to the table alongside their lower damage output.

Also Seillan, I wish you the best of luck in finding a group of people that are laid back and play for the fun of everyone involved instead of just finding ways to "go it alone" so to speak. They're out there! :)

I also agree. And it's been getting worse. Recently for incursion, and end game event which i thought was less discriminatory, people have only been asking for Sam. We know SAM is the top DD, but that doesn't mean other DDs are not capable as well. I know people say to form your own groups and run within that group, but for a casual player it's hard to have fun with other players who are so into efficiency and business that they criticize anything outside of what they see the norm. This is why I believe the casual player population completely disappeared overnight. It's sad that people who played this game purely for fun(casuals) have fallen out of love with the game. My entire linkshell is gone and I used to have so much fun just socializing with them all while reaching our end game goals. I find it difficult just to maintain a conversation with the current population, without them pointing out what would be more efficient.

While I do agree that it's more of an issue with the population, the problem causes several jobs to be completely unused, and therefore it becomes a game problem. Something needs to be done.

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Originally Posted by Dale

World of Warcraft if you want a more popular example. That game actually used to have class diversity and interesting and unique ways to play your class. But due to exactly this kind of mentality we are discussing I watched as that game was basically butchered and everything was nerfed and buffed to the point of boredom to appease these types of players.

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I'm pretty sure WoW's classes changed so drastically more as an attempt to continually simplify the game than to keep everyone's DPS in line. FFXI doesn't require that sort of change. BST doesn't need to necessarily play differently. It simply needs more output. I'm not proposing that the pet be placed on auto-pilot or they do away with the need for pet aggro control and maintenance. Pets need to become uncapped, be un-neutered as far as abilities, and allowed to be buffed. Killer Instinct needs to become a buff that's more universally useful.

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A perfect balance is never going to happen. Nor should it in my opinion. Imbalance is part of what makes the gameplay interesting and sets classes apart from each other to begin with.

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I'm not asking for perfect. I'm not that stupid. But right now SE doesn't even care to try. This is still a group based game and if a job has nothing substantial to offer a group then what's even the point of it? I'm not even talking DPS at this point. There's literally nothing a BST can sell himself on to get into a group. Emergency tank isn't a selling point. You can blame player mentality all you want, but we can only work with what SE gives us. We can't take our lemons and make lemonade. No matter how hard we squeeze there's no juice to be had.

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Of course no game is perfect, and improvements can always be made. And I'm not saying I wouldn't support improvements to the beastmaster. But these players who demand the most damage else they won't even group with you are just being completely unreasonable. And if you try to satisfy them, the game will suffer as a result. Because they will never be satisfied and they are always going to say certain jobs suck and not group with them no matter what SE does.

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The game IS suffering now. Sure it's for a myriad of reasons, but I guarantee you that the lack of anything resembling class balance is one of them.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I routinely beat endgame content with jobs like dragoons and beastmasters on this game. If there was really such a huge flaw in this game's design that makes these jobs not even worth a spot in a group, then that would not be possible.. And I know you don't like when I use that argument - but it's the truth as I see it. So that's why I keep using it.

I never meant to imply I didn't invite Samurais to events either. I can however do endgame content without them. You do not need samurais. You can be successful with or without them. That was my point.

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I'm not sure why do you bring up "player mentality" over and over again, this isn't even the point.

If you can beat a content with BST, that means it'd be "too easy" for SAM. Then there's a game difficulty design issue, because the difficulty should be equal, instead of certain setup gets "just right" difficulty and certain setup gets "too easy" difficulty.

Again, just because X job can beat the content, doesn't mean there are no flaws in game design.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Arguing for change is one thing. But believing your job is just so awful it doesn't even contribute and doesn't deserve an invite is another.

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It's not that the community are "believing" the job is so awful in this case, it's math. It's not an opinion, it's fact. There isn't anything you can do if X job just do 2~3 times more dmg than another job.

Whether other jobs deserve an invite is depend on individual, but you can't change math, numbers and facts. If someone choose not to invite a person/job, there's nothing you can do about it.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Also: I should point out I gave my reasons as to why I didn't think a Samurai was over-powered. None of them reasons had to do with the player mentality. So I don't think you are being fair to me by when you say I just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away. That's not what I did.

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Your reason wasn't legit, when we use SAM as a dmg dealer, obviously we use it in a situation that enmity doesn't matter, I'm not sure why'd you bring up enmity cap in this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Dale

A perfect balance is never going to happen. Nor should it in my opinion. Imbalance is part of what makes the gameplay interesting and sets classes apart from each other to begin with.

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This should be discussed in a case-by-case basis, it's not black or white.

There are certain job that I think it's just fine, IMO THF, BLU, DNC, MNK, DRG, RNG and COR are just fine, even though they do less dmg than SAM. I don't think DRK and WAR are fine and they'd need a buff/unique ability. I think PUP and BST needs a complete overhaul that's more than just dmg buff.

I think SAM def needs a nerf.

There are certain jobs that I feel ppl just exaggerating it's uselessness(such as THF), but there are certain job that's clearly imbalanced and that needs a fix.

If you want to discuss the class balance issue, express your opinion about jobs, balance and math, let SE know how to fix it. But don't just pop in the forum and say "It's player mentality's fault for not inviting other jobs! I clear events without those jobs all the time!"

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Originally Posted by Afania

I'm not sure why do you bring up "player mentality" over and over again, this isn't even the point.

If you can beat a content with BST, that means it'd be "too easy" for SAM. Then there's a game difficulty design issue, because the difficulty should be equal, instead of certain setup gets "just right" difficulty and certain setup gets "too easy" difficulty.

Again, just because X job can beat the content, doesn't mean there are no flaws in game design..

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Not sure why you are confused as to why I brought it up because I pointed out why. I bring it up when I see people believing certain jobs do not contribute in a group or aren't worthy of a party spot. That is what I blame the player mentality for - perpetuating that false narrative and I will continue to challenge it when I see it. I also disagree with you that just because something can be beaten by a Beastmaster than means it would be too easy with a samurai.

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Originally Posted by Afania

It's not that the community are "believing" the job is so awful in this case, it's math. It's not an opinion, it's fact. There isn't anything you can do if X job just do 2~3 times more dmg than another job.

Whether other jobs deserve an invite is depend on individual, but you can't change math, numbers and facts. If someone choose not to invite a person/job, there's nothing you can do about it. ..

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We've already gone over this so there is no need to repeat it. We just disagree. Because it's not math that is responsible for certain jobs not getting invites on this game. It's because of, yes - player mentalities like yourself :)

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Originally Posted by Afania

Your reason wasn't legit, when we use SAM as a dmg dealer, obviously we use it in a situation that enmity doesn't matter, I'm not sure why'd you bring up enmity cap in this discussion.

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It wasn't legit according to you maybe. But I found it perfectly legit. You have to take into account enmity and the job's ability to withstand damage before you can call a job over-powered. I know you want to just base everything around damage and ignore everything else. But I'm not like that.

It shouldn't take 30 pages of arguments to point out that just because one or two people are able to enjoy their game experience, all the other people who aren't need to have their voices heard, too.
It's great that people like Dale and others whose names I can't remember are laid-back enough to play for fun and let friends come on alternate DD job or whatever.
But we can't let SE believe that "my job is fine, the gameplay is fine, I can clear content just fine" when you've got all the rest of us screaming about how we're NOT having that great of a game experience. We can't totally blame it on the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Afania

This should be discussed in a case-by-case basis, it's not black or white.

There are certain job that I think it's just fine, IMO THF, BLU, DNC, MNK, DRG, RNG and COR are just fine, even though they do less dmg than SAM. I don't think DRK and WAR are fine and they'd need a buff/unique ability. I think PUP and BST needs a complete overhaul that's more than just dmg buff.

I think SAM def needs a nerf.

There are certain jobs that I feel ppl just exaggerating it's uselessness(such as THF), but there are certain job that's clearly imbalanced and that needs a fix.

If you want to discuss the class balance issue, express your opinion about jobs, balance and math, let SE know how to fix it. But don't just pop in the forum and say "It's player mentality's fault for not inviting other jobs! I clear events without those jobs all the time!"

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And I would ask you to do the same.

If you want to discuss class balance and your opinion about jobs that is fine. But if someone does it in the context of saying certain jobs do not contribute to a group or aren't worthy a party invite - then you are broadening the scope of your argument in ways I will challenge and dismiss as an exaggeration created by obsessive players.

And if you view my earlier posts, I have discussed ways to improve jobs without ever referring to the player mentality. You keep acting as if I always just bring that up - but that's just not true. I only bring it up when people start exaggerating. Though even when I don't bring it up - you still attack my opinions and say they are not legit. So it really doesn't matter what I say to be honest :)

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Originally Posted by Mitruya

It shouldn't take 30 pages of arguments to point out that just because one or two people are able to enjoy their game experience, all the other people who aren't need to have their voices heard, too.
It's great that people like Dale and others whose names I can't remember are laid-back enough to play for fun and let friends come on alternate DD job or whatever.
But we can't let SE believe that "my job is fine, the gameplay is fine, I can clear content just fine" when you've got all the rest of us screaming about how we're NOT having that great of a game experience. We can't totally blame it on the playerbase.

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No game is perfect and improvements can always be made. I pointed that out earlier, and even discuss areas where I think change should happen often on these forums.

What I blame the players for is this idea that certain jobs are so bad they don't even deserve an invite or a spot in a party. That is not SE's fault, because no job is in such a state to warrant that kind of attitude towards them.

I agree with you somewhat, Dale, and I understand what you're trying to say. I just wish more people felt like you did.

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Originally Posted by Ulth

It's not really an irrational fear. Pet jobs at one point were pretty op. I'm pretty sure the incremental pet job updates is because they don't want to get back to the point where a single pet job could solo any endgame content. It's not like they are making no effort on improving pet jobs.

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Yeah, I do understand, and I appreciate the baby steps. It's just not enough yet for anyone to let me come PUP to endgame.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

I'm pretty sure WoW's classes changed so drastically more as an attempt to continually simplify the game than to keep everyone's DPS in line. FFXI doesn't require that sort of change. BST doesn't need to necessarily play differently. It simply needs more output. I'm not proposing that the pet be placed on auto-pilot or they do away with the need for pet aggro control and maintenance. Pets need to become uncapped, be un-neutered as far as abilities, and allowed to be buffed. Killer Instinct needs to become a buff that's more universally useful. .

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They were done away with because people were ostracizing all of the support-style classes because they didn't do as much damage. Very similar to what is going on here. Because jobs that don't do as much damage as others usually have other elements to them - which is why SE designed them to do less damage in the first place.

I'm not opposed to beastmaster improvements.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

I'm
I'm not asking for perfect. I'm not that stupid. But right now SE doesn't even care to try. This is still a group based game and if a job has nothing substantial to offer a group then what's even the point of it? I'm not even talking DPS at this point. There's literally nothing a BST can sell himself on to get into a group. Emergency tank isn't a selling point. You can blame player mentality all you want, but we can only work with what SE gives us. We can't take our lemons and make lemonade. No matter how hard we squeeze there's no juice to be had..

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And I disagree. I like beastmasters and their ability to off-tank is very handy. I will welcome one into my group any time and not regret it so long as they are well-played.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

The game IS suffering now. Sure it's for a myriad of reasons, but I guarantee you that the lack of anything resembling class balance is one of them.

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And I guarantee you the main reason it is suffering is because of these players who obsess over damage and can't appreciate anything else.

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Originally Posted by Mitruya

I agree with you somewhat, Dale, and I understand what you're trying to say. I just wish more people felt like you did.

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There is more of us out there who feel this way then you might think.