Raise the minimum allowable job level in Abyssea from 30 to 70+

Oh, and let me clarify something before it's mentioned. I know that there are not two levels of skill with players; only utterly stupid versus only completely awesome.

My definition of a good player, at least in terms of my above post, is anyone who does not fall into the stupid category. An average player may not be as good as a super hardcore elitist, but will still have the mental capacity to read some stuff on the wiki, or ask friends, and perhaps even peruse a few forums for the general gist of what they should be doing. Their in game performance may not wow you, but it certainly won't disgust you either. They may not know the formulas and be able to tell you what pDIF even means, or begin to calculate when their fSTR is capped, but they're certainly not borderline chin-nibblers.

These people, despite not necessarily being the cream of the crop, are more than able and competent enough to play their jobs well, and gear fairly well.

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Originally Posted by Ilax

I did all my job to 75 pre-abyssea release, and to be honest there not much difference, when you level job like BLM (let say the hardest way) then you have to buy spell/gear/song and so on, that you might never use again at lv75 (or let now say 90) I could have say something different back in the time where CoP was still caped, but is not anymore the case.

To say someone will play better just because he did from lv1 to 90 the hard way is just wrong, i have just too many job to keep track of all new JA/Magic/strategy etc, no matter how good i was with all job 75, it worth nothing anymore for me since every job have a different play style since abyssea got introduced. So what i mean is i had to relearn everything for all job, so i am not more expert then any new player rushing his job to 90. (i still have more general experience, but what that worth since everyone interest is only abyssea now... And who say what i learned will really apply for lv99 release...)

Just a quick example, Look at warrior, they fell cleave 40 mob at the same time (no way you going to learn how to do this pre-90). Do they really need to know how to SC with other mele job? Or learn how to Trick attack tank, so why even bother anymore with these detail. For WHM you don't really need cure bomb everyone for 2,000 hours to learn the job... For RDM job, well is kinda messed up for them, they just have too many play style. Anyway i am not going to talk about all job, but in general what i learned pre-abyssea and what it is now is 2 different world.

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Knowing how to 1shot pets is very important to a blm too.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

His comment runs under the assumption that the people who would read up on their jobs and be able to apply said knowledge within the game would be the ones likely to skillup their weapons, get the spells, skill their magic, understand how to skillchain and magic bust and so on. He does not in any way say you learn what you need to by leeching. He merely contests that you don't need to do a normal party in order to learn (and apply) those skills or tactics either.

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I completely agree with this. Those that take the time to learn their jobs are going to regardless of which path they take. My roommate, who plays, leveled warrior casually with my in-game friends and I during the heyday of toau. It wasn't until we brought her to our small number Dynamis runs of between 4-6 people that she admittedly said she saw what her role was, that being co-tanking and switching to tanking if a rogue statue is running around. Also, generally learning to be aware of where everyone is, which groupings of mobs are asleep and things to do when routine breaks down.

That kind of strategy and awareness isn't going to be learned fighting crabs and colibri.

Abyssea has nothing to do with anything with regards to the average skill level of the player base. The biggest component of skill in FFXI is related to paying attention, either you're going to, or you're not, Abyssea did not change this.

For bad players they simply DON'T deserve the fast xp just like every other hard working players.

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Originally Posted by rog

First job is actually new, and was tolerable. second-tenth job were leveled to help in endgame/to kill time between other things/etc.

It's one thing doing something the first, second, maybe even third time. By the time you get to the 10th+ job, that 5k/hr simply doesn't cut it anymore.

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This is probably the statement I most agree with.

I think if new players were forced at gunpoint to stay in the game until they finished 1 job to at least 75 the old way, they might get a greater appreciation for the evolution of the game. They might gain some of the work ethic involved in keeping your sub leveled, working to get your gear, LFP for hours or putting together your own party, cursing S/E when 100 Fists was 100 Whiffs pre-sushi, fighting to get a claim on Moon Pass spawn, traveling all over the world to find the best Exp spot that wasn't completely over-camped, dying to idiots who pulled trains to zone and closed down the Nest, and so on. However, since they can just quit, it probably wouldn't work. And, I don't want to go back to the old way of leveling jobs myself just so that the new players have to go through it too. It was hell. Glad I did it. But, I don't need to relive the pain to remember all the lessons I learned during that climb.

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Originally Posted by rog

Knowing how to 1shot pets is very important to a blm too.

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God i loved that part on BLM :) no worry, it was also awesome to MB every battle back in the old day, kinda sad that many will never experience that, but i have more bad memory back in that time then good one, like LFG on my BLM 10h and have to run @ Sky to get tell sorry the PT disbanded lol oh well, i can't say the Abyssea experience is that bad, not at all :)

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

His comment runs under the assumption that the people who would read up on their jobs and be able to apply said knowledge within the game would be the ones likely to skillup their weapons, get the spells, skill their magic, understand how to skillchain and magic bust and so on. He does not in any way say you learn what you need to by leeching. He merely contests that you don't need to do a normal party in order to learn (and apply) those skills or tactics either.

I for one, agree with this. If you've been playing the game for a while you should be well aware that there were plenty of level 75's that were horrible. Even before the introduction of Level Sync. Even before the introduction of Campaign. And also before ToAU was introduced.

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I agree, to this much, to an extent. Someone who's chronically on one extreme end of the spectrum will likely stay there. However, people are not made of extremes.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

One of his main points is that gimps have always existed and will always exist. The way they level has zero impact on this. An idiot that whacks away at Robber Crabs or Colibri to 75 (90) will still be an idiot. An idiot that keys chests to 90 will still be an idiot. Many other people are trying to argue that Abyssea has produced more idiots, which they're mostly attributing to key leeching. The people who are smart will pretty much always be smart at their job.

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This is where we diverge. The real issue up for debate that I and obviously others strongly believe (and I realize this is a subjective personal belief that neither of us can provide any evidence for) that the current situation is much more conducive to, well, the furtherance of idiots.

You cannot seriously try and tell me that practice of leveling does not have some positive impact in the development of skill in an averagely skilled player. You just can't, it assumes people are incapable of learning.

Furthermore, do not even dare attempt a package-deal fallacy here. Just because some gimps will always be gimps does not mean that adjustments to game balance and difficulty encouraging players to develop skill has no impact on any of them.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

None of the jobs in the game are hard, and any reasonable person will be able to properly gear their job and play it regardless of how they got it to level 90. The smart people I'm talking about are likely to understand the value of having their spells, skilling their weapons and understanding how to properly time shadows and/or other spells.

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Again, another bunch of fallacies. No, jobs themselves are not hard. Situations in which skill is required to play said jobs correctly can be hard. Practice improves this skill level in reasonably skilled players. Are you trying to tell me that there is nothing to be gained from practice?

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

Making people level the "original way" will serve as nothing more than a timesink and/or cockblock (if people abhor the original way of leveling) if the player in question is good.

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Then why even play the game at that point? What would said player even be seeking to accomplish? Compare;

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I got my PLD to 99, hooray!

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To:

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There, I finally leeched PLD to 99. Now I'll do BLM.

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Doesn't sound very rewarding, does it? Why even bother making it a game? Seriously, this isn't a rhetorical question. Why play a game if you don't actually want to be challenged on some level? Guitar hero wouldn't be popular if you could win just by pushing the start button.

Sure, it doesn't remove all challange from the game, but you sure can't deny it removes a portion of it. The significance, being very relative person to person.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

...If it takes 18 terrible players to do what a group of smart players could do with 2-6, then hey, at least they can get some shit done for themselves.

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Agreed, but not relevant to my point.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

Abyssea leeching is not the problem. The problem is the players themselves. As has been mentioned before, this can be solved by playing with people you know and trust, or finding people that can trust, and get to know them.

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Correct, Abyssea leeching is not the problem. The imbalance it creates is. Trust is totally irrelevant to my point.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

These are the people trying to "force" their ideas and ways upon others, offering up whatever explanation they can can up with, however ridiculous and/or stupid it might be to make it happen and make it seem like a legitimate concern or issue.

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That's a matter of perspective. What you call forcing, I call game balance. The historically carefully maintained game balance is one of the largest appeals of FFXI and one of the highest valued by it's player base. The sheer number of these topics should be a clear demonstration of that.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

Meanwhile, most everyone in the other camp (the people that like or support leeching) are not arguing that it should be the only option.

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Irrelevant to the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

In fact, many people (myself included) are saying that there is an issue with exp outside Abyssea, even with the new upgrades...Hell, I might even do it once in a while for fun. Nearly everyone arguing against the people that want to stop Abyssea leeching has said the same.

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So you haven't actually experienced the changes from the update, but you believe it's not enough anyway?

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

I don't want to take away from others enjoyment of the game... so why are they trying to do it to me (and by extension, the others who like Abyssea leeching)? Everyone should be able to level the way they choose, putting a stop to Abyssea leeching is not conducive to this idea.

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Do not appeal to consequences, no one is trying to suck the fun out of the game for you. They are in favor of maintaining game balance.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

Any anger or arguing you're seeing from "this side" of the fence is only shooting down the reasons people are asking for Abyssea leeching to stop, because any reason that has been offered is complete bullshit, as well as any reason I can come up with.

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Really?

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

The only valid argument I'm seeing against Abyssea leeching is that these bad players will have more jobs at max level.

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Abyssea is fine for thepeople that like it, but im tired of trying to make parties and being told "no ty, i'm waiting for an abyssea invite." I haven't had a regular party in months and I never get to leech, if anything i'm ready to quit since i didn't join an mmo to play by myself.

The only sure way to get an Abyssea leech spot is to make the party. That's all I did when I took RDM 37-90. If you need advice on what jobs to look for and monsters to hunt while in Abyssea, I'll be free to answer any questions you have. However, you can't expect people to pick up a random leech these days. Key-mastering is fulltime job when you take into account the fact that the key-master/Alliance leader will also have to keep an eye on their party at all times and, more than likely, will be finding replacements for half the people who leave.

So let say the {Monk} {Key} is an idot at playing his job correctly and the other guy leveling is an idot to not be able built his own PT without a Key whore member :)

Just messing, but ya, is easy to be stereotype like this, i just saw too many ppl leech they job and fail badly, as i saw the same number of player fail without leeching any of they job, just take dynamis, i see people doing the same mistake even after 6yr long. Some learn some just never learn. I doubt it change much if they leech or not.

Take my ninja, i was NIN main for 3yr long doing Sky, CoP etc, now that make a good 3yr that job is retired. I played back the job form 75 to 90 just to have it available just in case someday i have back some interest into the job, because yes to me that job is not anymore fun to play, to not say imo is a fail job lol, but wait a min don't jump on my word till i am done explaining, 2 of my friend did level Ninja lately, and they actually finish the job in 3 day max >.> Both of them... And guess what? They are actually doing better then me on everything with that job, is like they are always been playing the job since game is out, and the job is not as fail as i was thinking.

So ya, i am hella happy to have both of them as ninja in my LS, is funny also because one of them used to be a very good/skilled BLM, and his blm isnt anymore anything amazing, once again he get outbeated by the new wave of BLM that did leech.

All this to say, you might only look the negative side of leeching, but there more then that. How many was not looking into another job just due to all the work into leveling the job. Personally i did level all job back in the time for one reason... Was not to brag about maat cap or brag about the number of job i had, but just to have an overview of what all job can offer. It helped me to lead and understand more the mechanic of the game. Its also made me understand the mistake my friend was doing with they job, and i got able to lead them, because no matter what wiki say, is not always how we are playing.

Too many take wiki for the ultimate reference, i can't tell you how many time i saw wiki wrong, like one i can remember right now is the KS99, i failed all KS99 till i find my own way, i can easy explain why too, wiki is stereotype guide line, you can see it more then ever now with abyssea, according to wiki a MNK + WHM can solo everything... Ya that might be true for some WHM and MNK, but not mean all mnk and whm, and what happen when you try apply they strategy with only the WHM? Is the solution to tell your member i am sorry go level MNK bc wiki say so? Imo that even more retarded then actual people that leech they job.

In the end all this is irrelevant, point of all the garbage i said resume to: An idiot stay an idiot, and is for sure not going to change anything how fast or easy people can reach 90, but might just give a better chance to someone to discover a hidden talent. Who know maybe i was just an idiot Ninja?

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Originally Posted by Sama

For bad players they simply DON'T deserve the fast xp just like every other hard working players.

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And it encourages more of them.

It really gets back to the problem that you have a bunch of FFXI players who don't deserve to be here and deserve to be with the immature little window-lickers who play WoW.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

And it encourages more of them.

It really gets back to the problem that you have a bunch of FFXI players who don't deserve to be here and deserve to be with the immature little window-lickers who play WoW.

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You know it's bad when BG posters are advocating people playing however they like and Starcade is talking about players who suck too much to deserve the right to play.

mind = blown.

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

So instead of Abyssea burning, we will be stuck in East Ronfaure [S] and Qufim? Or Astral Burning?

People are using Abyssea to level because the old way SUCKED. Trying to change it is just imposing your nostalgia on others. If people loved levelling the old way so much, they would.

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No, they did it because they were lazy and wanted instant gratification. Abyssea gave everyone access to quick leveling, not just the people who happened to know a couple of SMNs and RDMs, or the people who had the money to pay those people.
Though I agree with a cap increase, it would inevitably turn people away fromt he game since it has already made itself the staple. On the flip side, a game without midgame content is lacking. We're already a game for complainers, just live with it the best you can and ride that train. Next stop FFXIWOW.(Oh wait, that was FFXIV. lol)

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You know it's bad when BG posters are advocating people playing however they like and Starcade is talking about players who suck too much to deserve the right to play.

mind = blown.

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I'll take your blown mind even a step further.

Many of those BG players are exactly the kind of twits I'm talking about.

All BG was ever good for, to me, was fodder to send to the Special Task Force.

For what, exactly?

I know what I'm getting into, but I dare say this might be worth the lulz.

Let's see:

Admitted bot usage
Admitted RMT (on both sides of the equation)
Illegal 3rd-party program usage on a WIDE scale

and that's just for starters.

But, again:


"Fraud is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage. Fraud may also be made by an omission or purposeful failure to state material facts, which nondisclosure makes other statements misleading."

if they can manage to make campaign battle attractive again that could be a reasonable stop-gap between 60ish and 75 and would support a cap on abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

I agree, to this much, to an extent. Someone who's chronically on one extreme end of the spectrum will likely stay there. However, people are not made of extremes.

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I tried to clarify this in my followup post. In the context of this debate, I'm grouping anybody not on the extreme end of stupid in the "smart" category. But I still don't believe that the middle-ground people need to level the old fashioned way in order to learn their job and apply themselves. I will admit that the learning curve may be more severe for them due to this, but this is irrelevant as the argument being made is to contest that Abyssea leeching breeds morons. If you want to get into this, I will admit that middle-ground players could stand to gain something from traditional parties, but I assert it is nowhere near necessary, nor will it have a hugely negative impact upon their overall performance, especially in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

This is where we diverge. The real issue up for debate that I and obviously others strongly believe (and I realize this is a subjective personal belief that neither of us can provide any evidence for) that the current situation is much more conducive to, well, the furtherance of idiots.

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I'll admit it's easier for idiots to level. Yet at the same time it's easier for the smart players (again, in the context of this argument I include average and even slightly below average in the smart category, because it applies to these people just as much as the well above average players) to gain levels as well. For example, there's many derps that have a bunch of levels that were easily obtained. But now that awesome RDM you know has leveled WHM too, and possibly even a DD job if mostly mage-oriented people in your linkshell (hypothetical) are on. Maybe he's better at WHM than he was RDM, and quite possibly the only reason he leveled it was because of the ease and painlessness (subjective, I'll admit, but there are obviously people who feel/felt this way) of leveling.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

You cannot seriously try and tell me that practice of leveling does not have some positive impact in the development of skill in an averagely skilled player. You just can't, it assumes people are incapable of learning.

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I admitted to this above. I will concede that it can help to an extent to the average player. But you cannot tell me that not having this experience will have a permanent negative effect on the same player. An average player should, reasonably, be able to learn and adapt, through whatever means he or she chooses, regardless of the trip that got them to max level.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

Furthermore, do not even dare attempt a package-deal fallacy here. Just because some gimps will always be gimps does not mean that adjustments to game balance and difficulty encouraging players to develop skill has no impact on any of them.

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We must have different ideas of what constitutes a gimp. I'm not speaking of an average or even somewhat below average player who may not know the formulas and may not know that certain drops even exist (I don't expect everyone to read as much as I do). I'm talking about the people who are frustratingly bad, and either don't care that they are, make up an excuse as to why they are (such as not being able to make gil, when simple improvements could be made for less than 100k), or think that they're right, and that full teal is super awesome for nuking, or who wear STR backs on a mage job, or who fulltime dual Balance Rings and then defend their gear vehemently. The people who absolutely will not change. These are the gimps I'm referring to, and the statement stands.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

Again, another bunch of fallacies. No, jobs themselves are not hard. Situations in which skill is required to play said jobs correctly can be hard. Practice improves this skill level in reasonably skilled players. Are you trying to tell me that there is nothing to be gained from practice?

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Depends on the person and the job. Have any casting job that occasionally (or constantly) gets hate? You'll likely already know how to time spells between mob swings, be it for shadows, sleeps, binds, gravity, or whatever. Been a mage or a tank? You'll likely understand the value of ensuring monsters stay off the mages, though the applications of how you'd pull hate back may differ from job to job. Auto-attacking is pointless to discuss. If you're any of the higher end DD's, you'll likely understand how hate works. It's not like playing a job will only get you experience and knowledge for just that job. Many skills (player skills, not character skills) carry over, overlap or just plain become apparent by having played the game at all in any reasonably intelligent fashion. I will, however, admit that some subtleties can only be gleaned from first hand experience. In this matter, however, I will refer to an above point: any reasonably intelligent person will still be able to pick up on these nuances even after burning to cap.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

Then why even play the game at that point? What would said player even be seeking to accomplish? Compare;

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I got my PLD to 99, hooray!

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To:

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There, I finally leeched PLD to 99. Now I'll do BLM.

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Doesn't sound very rewarding, does it? Why even bother making it a game? Seriously, this isn't a rhetorical question. Why play a game if you don't actually want to be challenged on some level? Guitar hero wouldn't be popular if you could win just by pushing the start button.

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v

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

Sure, it doesn't remove all challange from the game, but you sure can't deny it removes a portion of it. The significance, being very relative person to person.

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I've done enough jobs to cap the traditional way. The only challenge to me is getting parties together with good players and hoping to find an open camp. I enjoy endgame activities, but the old way of leveling, were it the only option for leveling, is simply unappealing to me. I find literally zero challenge in beating up birds or crabs for hour on end. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. However, I also acknowledge that there are many who do not feel this way, and would prefer to level the old fashioned way. I have no problem with this, and I don't think anyone does. If someone wants to go level that way, have at it. I also realize that the exp gained in that fashion does not compare to Abyssea leeching exp. I'm all for buffing the exp obtained from other areas, in whatever way(s) would work. Make mobs give more exp (again)? Cool. Extend chain timers to make it easier to maintain chain and get more exp? Awesome. Drop the mob level requirement for getting chains in the first place (to Decent Challenge and above)? Sounds good to me. Buff FoV exp rewards (regardless of whether they touch Tabs/Gil)? I'm all for it. I have zero problem with people leveling the way they want to, and also have zero problem with making changes to enable these methods to being more equal. But the way I want to level is by leeching. And what irritates me is the people who campaign and bitch to take that ability away. Make it fair to everyone, that's the way it should be anyway. Obviously there's enough support to warrant a retooling of old-style exp.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

Correct, Abyssea leeching is not the problem. The imbalance it creates is. Trust is totally irrelevant to my point.

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I don't see it creating an imbalance. There's just as many idiots playing now as there were years ago. And it is relevant, since if there is any imbalance, nobody is making you participate with these people anyway. It's like the people who bitch about being /checked and refuse to turn on the filter... if you think it's that big of a problem.. filter it out. Getting yourself a group of trusted friends will effectively reduce any interactions with the stupids of the game to a very minimal amount. Don't join an Abyssea /shout exp group that's going for 18, go get a few friends, like maybe 5, and have yourself a single exp party. Despite the huge desire and trend to do exp alliances, I can assure you it's not needed. My group that goes on Sundays only has 3 people actively killing the mobs.

Furthermore, if you agree that Abyssea leeching is not the problem, you're agreeing that it's ultimately the idiots that are the problem. Where we differ is whether there is an imbalance created by by the idiots because of the leeching. Regardless of which one of us is right, the problem itself still lies with the idiots, not the leeching. Simply cut out the problem (the idiots) from your gaming experience and it honestly doesn't matter which one of us is right. Even if you are right, and there's suddenly more idiots than there used to be, so what? Don't play with them and the problem is solved.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

That's a matter of perspective. What you call forcing, I call game balance. The historically carefully maintained game balance is one of the largest appeals of FFXI and one of the highest valued by it's player base. The sheer number of these topics should be a clear demonstration of that.

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This is not something that ruins the balance of the game. If any part of your argument, or the millions like it, are correct, it only creates an imbalance in the players. I still disagree with you on this point, but that's irrelevant to this point. I'll admit that game imbalance is an issue, but this has nothing to do with leeching. PLD is essentially worthless, nearly everything can be duo'd by a MNK and a WHM, and if you're soley after Abyssea procs you only need MNK+WHM/SCH+BLM/BRD+BLU/NIN for grellow and blue (blunt time). Need Red, throw in WAR+NIN. Then there's the whole topic of Atma/Cruor/Brews as well. This is game imbalance. Player imbalance, whether or not affected by Abyssea, has existed throughout the history of the game and is honestly not something that can be handled by SE. Leeching does not create any imbalance within the game itself.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

Irrelevant to the discussion.

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Incorrect. Check the topic title again. People want to abolish Abyssea leeching, or at the very least limit it to level 70-ish+. That's kinda been the basis for most of the discussion, and the initial point I raised that you contested was that nobody was trying to force anything upon us (those against the abolishment/restriction of leeching). Soo.... yeah, people want to make leeching stop, but nobody want to make traditional exp parties stop. Sounds like a one-sided deal to me, and if it did come to pass, would be forcing the people that don't want to exp the traditional way to exp the traditional way.

If you want something irrelevant, I'd like to state that it was Level Sync that initially killed traditional exp parties. Or you could make a case for ToAU and its bird camps.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

So you haven't actually experienced the changes from the update, but you believe it's not enough anyway?

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I'm not quite sure where I said I hadn't experienced it. Done an exp party the old way for hours as a means to actually level up? No. Did it to see how the values were changed with some friends who were curious? Yep.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

Do not appeal to consequences, no one is trying to suck the fun out of the game for you. They are in favor of maintaining game balance.

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Being forced to level the old way when there's a current way that I very much prefer would be sucking the fun out of the game for me. Regardless, it does not create game imbalance. Leeching did not make PLD suck. Leeching did nothing to game balance. If it created any imbalance whatsoever, it would only be with the playerbase. And frankly, I don't see it as possible. Not like FFXI is getting vast amounts of new subscribers and they're all idiots, or everybody that quits was a smart person. No, generally, the same people play the game that used to, maybe a few left, maybe a few joined. The same relative amount of idiots remains, and they'd have all made it to cap anyway. Perhaps it seems like there's more because most people don't play with them. Or because the gap between having 3 lunar abyssites and good atmas and not having them is so ridiculously huge that it seems that there's more, or that they're worse than they used to be. Or possibly because many people join larger groups, and more people usually means more idiots.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

Really?

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Yes, really. Since you seemed to think it meant that I thought it was a valid argument against leeching (or pro-creating imbalance, or whatever), let me clarify. It's an argument that people are making. It's also true, and valid. But, it's irrelevant towards the point they're trying to make. Here's the part that comes immediately following the line you are trying to make into a contradiction by taking out of context:

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

Though, I'll ask in return: what difference does that make? They'll be terrible whether they have one job at max level or all 20. They'll just have more flexibility when it comes to grouping with other terrible players. Again, so what? If it takes 18 terrible players to do what a group of smart players could do with 2-6, then hey, at least they can get some shit done for themselves.

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Yes, Abyssea leeching gets idiots more jobs at cap than they'd likely have had before leeching. And again, so what? An idiot is an idiot, regardless of the amount of different jobs they have. This is what makes this particular reason for getting rid of leeching bullshit. The argument itself may be valid, which it is, but the application of it is not.

We all know that stupid players exist. Using them as a crutch or scapegoat to abolish Abyssea leeching is just bullshit.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

And it encourages more of them.

It really gets back to the problem that you have a bunch of FFXI players who don't deserve to be here and deserve to be with the immature little window-lickers who play WoW.

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Those immature little window-lickers as you call them allow a company like SE to create content that you enjoy to play, same as those people that pick up your garbage every week in RL, allow you to not deal with it. Everyone they world, as far i know, there no obligation for you to invite them, and if you join an abyssea PT just because you too lazy to make your own, then sorry buddy but you have to deal with it.

No matter how many job 90 anyone have, i am never looking at this when we plan invite someone in my LS that is btw very successful, and while we at this, i also never invite people just because they have good gear, all this mean nothing to me.

As side note, just keep in mind that probably the main reason WoW is more popular and more successful, they don't close the door to anyone... (even the immature little window-lickers as you say)

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Originally Posted by Starcade

#1, as Yuna would say, you're a bad liar. But since you're more socially acceptable to the player-base than I am, you'll probably get away with it.

#2, I've been waiting for a post like this...

You might as well say the creators of illegal software contribute more to the game...

You might as well say RMT does as well...

You might as well even say that griefers and cockblockers do the same...

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I'm not sure how creating illegal software has to do with determining and discovering new gameplay strategies, allowing people to become better at the game. Nor what it has to do with doing math and figuring out formulas for how damage in the game is being calculated. Both of these things are done without the use of third party tools, and contributes greatly to the game, especially to those willing to read up on said formulas and strategies. And quite a number of these come from BG.

Think you guy Derailed badly here.

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Originally Posted by Ilax

Those immature little window-lickers as you call them allow a company like SE to create content that you enjoy to play,

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Stop.

Stop right there.

If they are necessary for the continuance of FFXI, I've made my position repeatedly clear -- FFXI does not deserve to survive. Because, at that point, they have the right to dictate terms to the rest of the player-base and to Square-Enix.

My enjoyment of the content would be heightened significantly if the player-base had one ounce of integrity between them.

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Originally Posted by Ilax

same as those people that pick up your garbage every week in RL, allow you to not deal with it. Everyone they world, as far i know, there no obligation for you to invite them, and if you join an abyssea PT just because you too lazy to make your own, then sorry buddy but you have to deal with it.

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There's always the option to tell the alliance to go blow and warp out. I've even gotten to the point that, faced with the option of paying one of these window-lickers not to cockblock or getting tossed out of my alliance, I got tossed.

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Originally Posted by Ilax

No matter how many job 90 anyone have, i am never looking at this when we plan invite someone in my LS that is btw very successful, and while we at this, i also never invite people just because they have good gear, all this mean nothing to me.

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Then you would be a rarity in this game. Frankly spoken...

For many people, their gear is their reputation.

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Originally Posted by Ilax

As side note, just keep in mind that probably the main reason WoW is more popular and more successful, they don't close the door to anyone... (even the immature little window-lickers as you say)

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ESPECIALLY the immature little window-lickers. I was watching a gaming group doing a WoW marathon, and the maturity level of most of the comments and of a lot of the in-game chat approximated that of a pre-school student.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

I'm not sure how creating illegal software has to do with determining and discovering new gameplay strategies, allowing people to become better at the game. Nor what it has to do with doing math and figuring out formulas for how damage in the game is being calculated. Both of these things are done without the use of third party tools, and contributes greatly to the game, especially to those willing to read up on said formulas and strategies. And quite a number of these come from BG.

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Let me put it this way:

I used to have in my linkshell on another server (in fact, finding out about this guy is one of the reasons I left the server!) one of the most prominent in-game tacticians/theorists on the entire game.

Of course, he was on his second character, having been banned for the Salvage bans of January 22, 2009.

Point being: I don't give a flying rip about how much strategy you form if it's clear that, by your conduct, you have no business playing FFXI.

That would be like giving Michael Vick credit for being a great athlete, even though he's a dog-killing piece of scum who has no business in organized society.

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That would be like giving Michael Vick credit for being a great athlete, even though he's a dog-killing piece of scum who has no business in organized society.

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He's a great athlete. Being a bad person doesn't mean you're not good at what you do best.

@Starcade i totally disagree your stereotype personality, to even add up is shocking that you generalize that much everything like the world should just be composed of perfect people (Hi Adolf Hitler doctrine) You might think the way you play the game is perfect enough to say such of thing, but how good are you versus Avesta? Is the next step to make my game more enjoyable to also have you kicked out of the game just because imo you not good enough to play my game? Seriously i am just shocked man, and i am sure more then only me are by such of rude comment.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

He's a great athlete. Being a bad person doesn't mean you're not good at what you do best.

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Yes it does, especially when (and this is where it becomes on topic to FFXI) it means you have no business doing what you are good at doing best.

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Originally Posted by Ilax

Is the next step to make my game more enjoyable to also have you kicked out of the game just because imo you not good enough to play my game? Seriously i am just shocked man, and i am sure more then only me are by such of rude comment.

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I don't think you want my answer to that question.

The answer to that question is an unequivocal YES -- the next step to make your game more enjoyable is to remove people like me from it (forcibly and with the GMs if necessary), because of my non-tolerance for what probably makes your gameplay enjoyable.

The only reason I play FFXI is to spit at the cheaters and force Square-Enix, when the time finally comes, to basically either enforce their ToS against things they've said they would have no tolerance for (but continually LIED about), or basically render them irrelevant in the face of effective mob rule.

It's been dull having you banned from any forum of repute in the FFXI community. You're so delirious it's funny.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It's been dull having you banned from any forum of repute in the FFXI community. You're so delirious it's funny.

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Well, let's make no secret: This is about the only place I'm allowed to post -- because I hold the player-base (pretty much rank and file) with utter contempt.

*sings*

Going off the rails on a Crazy Train....

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Originally Posted by Starcade

I don't think you want my answer to that question.

The answer to that question is an unequivocal YES -- the next step to make your game more enjoyable is to remove people like me from it (forcibly and with the GMs if necessary), because of my non-tolerance for what probably makes your gameplay enjoyable.

The only reason I play FFXI is to spit at the cheaters and force Square-Enix, when the time finally comes, to basically either enforce their ToS against things they've said they would have no tolerance for (but continually LIED about), or basically render them irrelevant in the face of effective mob rule.

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Once again you derail, i never talked about RMT, Cheater and so on, as much i can agree on those statement, i still and never going to agree that the one who not an expert at FFXI should switch the game just to make you happy.

Stop derail just to win a point that clearly you lost from base, if you wan talk about RMT just go post a new thread, i don't like the way this turning, because clearly you too much stereotype person and over it you derail it just to win your point.

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Originally Posted by Ilax

Once again you derail, i never talked about RMT, Cheater and so on, as much i can agree on those statement, i still and never going to agree that the one who not an expert at FFXI should switch the game just to make you happy.

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The problem is there are those who even are considered experts who should run themselves off to Azeroth, as far as I am concerned -- and their conduct vis-a-vis cheating and RMT is a large reason why.

(Especially when you get to groups like BG.)

You're not going to get full separation of those concepts, especially with the belief by many that cheating, in certain forms, is necessary to their enjoyment of FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Ilax

Stop derail just to win a point that clearly you lost from base, if you wan talk about RMT just go post a new thread, i don't like the way this turning, because clearly you too much stereotype person and over it you derail it just to win your point.

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It's actually part of the reason that the concept of raising the Abyssean level floor is not a bad idea: You've got a bunch of people who are willing to openly screw over everyone in their path for their own advancement -- and Abyssea has added a whole new dimension to this.

It drives me up the wall to basically hear people /shout to try to be the key master (read: level-accelerator for themselves), not realizing that, in most cases, the key master is the one making the group.

It also drives me up the wall when I am in such a group to see the leader having to keep track of everyone to assure that they are actually doing the work -- in most cases, they aren't!!

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Originally Posted by Starcade

Yes it does, especially when (and this is where it becomes on topic to FFXI) it means you have no business doing what you are good at doing best.

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That makes no sense.
Even if you think he shouldn't be doing something. He's still good at it, regardless. Unless you're saying you can beat him and his team in football?

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

That makes no sense.
Even if you think he shouldn't be doing something. He's still good at it, regardless. Unless you're saying you can beat him and his team in football?

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No, you're completely missing the point.

He has no business in organized society. It's almost as if we have made him into some sort of a God who must be bowed down to (like FFXI has done to many of the Salvage-dupers, etc.) to be considered acceptable.

That's hogwash. I don't care if he eventually does get people to reinvent the position of quarterback -- the guy is utter slime and has no business on the field, and those who cheer him on are just as culpable in the mockery of even base decency that his presence there does.

Hence, it invalidates how good he is, in any sane person's eyes. Just like botting and 3PP's and duping invalidate the good work the players involved in said do.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

[everything]

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Seriously man, I willing to bet that you cheat like crazy. There's no way anyone would be so outspoken against it unless they did.

@Starcade

Your experience and mine is 2 different story line, trust me the member in my LS are by far not 'The best player in FFXI' but they are mature/friendly/helpful, trust me the best gear/skill mean nothing if your group is ready to make fun of you. No matter how good you are, is most of the time the synergy of your linkshell.

Quit trying put everyone in the same boat...

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Originally Posted by Starcade

No, you're completely missing the point.

He has no business in organized society. It's almost as if we have made him into some sort of a God who must be bowed down to (like FFXI has done to many of the Salvage-dupers, etc.) to be considered acceptable.

That's hogwash. I don't care if he eventually does get people to reinvent the position of quarterback -- the guy is utter slime and has no business on the field, and those who cheer him on are just as culpable in the mockery of even base decency that his presence there does.

Hence, it invalidates how good he is, in any sane person's eyes. Just like botting and 3PP's and duping invalidate the good work the players involved in said do.

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That's a horrible comparison. botting directly correlates to ffxi. Fighting dogs has absolutely nothing to do with his ability to play football.

Someone caught using steroids would make a better example than Vic, as that actually has an effect on football and the outcome of games.

If they did this, then how would that be fair to all the people that were able to do it before they would apply this kind of patch?

It would mean that those people had unfair access with 30+ jobs while other people in the future who didn't get a chance to go there would have to do it 70+.

I've organized a party where I brought in a 90 blm. Turned out he had levelled all 60 levels in 5 days, and his skills were at level 30ish. He did have his spells, because blm was not his 1st job and he had money. He cast a Blizzard V on Raskovnik for 154, yes 154 damage. He had claim, so I kicked him from the pt, and had the rest of the party all flux out and leave him to it. He was not invited back, and I told our rdm if he went to raise him he was not welcome back either.

Show up prepared to do your job in a reasonable manner or quit the game! THAT is why I despise low-level leeching. I don't even particularily like level sync. If a mob is a skillable mob relative to your level you should be able to skill, period.

Now, ask me how I feel about people who AFK...