Raise the minimum allowable job level in Abyssea from 30 to 70+

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

You're not in that minority because you do not enjoy the entire game.

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You are just kinda picking at words dude, lol. I think it's clear that she just wishes the rest of the game got some more love from the player base is all.

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Originally Posted by Avina

You are just kinda picking at words dude, lol. I think it's clear that she just wishes the rest of the game got some more love from the player base is all.

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Well she should say that then instead of some bs lie that she enjoys the ENTIRE game.

I like the ENTIRE game too (I just happen to like some parts about as much as the prospect of gouging out my eyes).

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Whether other people enjoy it or not, if you do not, then your claims of enjoying the entire game are false. As for me, I enjoyed doing chests when I leveled Corsair (only job I leveled prior to 75 in abysssea)



You're not in that minority because you do not enjoy the entire game.

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OK I will concede to that technicality I enjoy the entire game with the exclusion of leeches and keywhoring. Do you feel better now? By the way since you are the 1st person I have ever seen to say they actually enjoy keywhoreing rather than saying that its boring but fast would that not make you the minority in that respect or is it simply a quick means to an end is why you enjoy it?

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Do you feel better now?

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It has nothing to do with feeling better. It has to do with everyone has things they like and things they dislike. That was my only point and it just happens that some people dislike leveling in the fashion that you do like.

Hence, letting people choose how they level. You level how you want. I'm not trying to force my way of leveling on you. All I ask for in return is the same notion.

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By the way since you are the 1st person I have ever seen to say they actually enjoy keywhoreing rather than saying that its boring but fast would that not make you the minority in that respect or is it simply a quick means to an end is why you enjoy it?

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Well, I only did it once (cor) and there was a lot of people I knew there, so the time just flew by. I didn't find it to be a boring experience.

Had it not known anyone and actually paid attention to only the boxes, that may or may not have been a different case, but i can't say, because that was not my situation.

Edit: Where as lving cor 10-30 was such a drag and one of more boring things I've done on this game. 1-10 was actually fun, but I find all jobs 1-10 to be fun, so no surprise there.

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Originally Posted by Avina

You are just kinda picking at words dude, lol. I think it's clear that she just wishes the rest of the game got some more love from the player base is all.

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Lol yeah he has been doing that for 25 pages now against many with a differing opinion. To be honest its just to the point of amusing to me so I keep him going to see what he will try to twist next. Sorry though if it takes it off topic.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Well she should say that then instead of some bs lie that she enjoys the ENTIRE game.

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It's not really a lie, I mean, people say that kind of stuff all the time. If a person likes the vast majority of something it becomes tedius to say "I like all of this, except for this, this, this, and this." I'm pretty sure there's a logical fallacy there somewhere but I don't recall it.

But a lie is intended, which I doubt was her intent. I don't think she was intentionally trying to mislead anyone.

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Lol yeah he has been doing that for 25 pages now against many with a differing opinion.

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At least I value the opinions, don't really care what you do, and don't try to force my way onto others.

While I don't agree with most of your opinions in this thread, I've never said you shouldn't do them and I've never said you should do them the way I do them.

You, on the other hand, are trying to say your way is right over other's ways.

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Originally Posted by Avina

It's not really a lie, I mean, people say that kind of stuff all the time. If a person likes the vasty majority of something it becomes tedius to say "I like all of this, except for this, this, this, and this." I'm pretty sure there's a logical fallacy there somewhere but I don't recall it.

But a lie is intended, which I doubt was her intent. I don't think she was intentionally trying to mislead anyone.

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The same post she said she didn't like key whoring she said she liked the entire game. You don't think that calls for some clarification?

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

The same post she said she didn't like key whoring she said she liked the entire game. You don't think that calls for some clarification?

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When I read it I took it as she liked the content that the game had to offer, but not necessarily some of the player strategies. I didn't say that I felt she had made the most accurate of statements, but definitely not an attempt to lie or mislead people. Like you said, she said right there in the same post she didn't like key whoring, not like she was trying to hide that there were some things about the game she wasn't fond of. But again I took it as her just liking the content that comes inside the box.

oh, well in that case, people who like to exp (key whore) but just don't like the strategy she uses could say the same, no?

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

It has nothing to do with feeling better. It has to do with everyone has things they like and things they dislike. That was my only point and it just happens that some people dislike leveling in the fashion that you do like.

Hence, letting people choose how they level. You level how you want. I'm not trying to force my way of leveling on you. All I ask for in return is the same notion.

Well, I only did it once (cor) and there was a lot of people I knew there, so the time just flew by. I didn't find it to be a boring experience.

Had it not known anyone and actually paid attention to only the boxes, that may or may not have been a different case, but i can't say, because that was not my situation.

Edit: Where as lving cor 10-30 was such a drag and one of more boring things I've done on this game. 1-10 was actually fun, but I find all jobs 1-10 to be fun, so no surprise there.

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OK then by what you just said the end all be all of enjoyable leveling is leeching. Nothing that SE does to the game will change that for "the majority" of players. That exact attitude is what put this whole thread right into the gutter. I never said leave the outside of abyssea alone or that SE shouldn't change things around to make leveling faster than it used to be, they have already taken steps in this direction that are being used but not so much by oldschool parties. Maybe even give 30- 60ish jobs their own aby zone to play in if people really only like to aby party? People on both sides of this thread have looked at as an end all be all and its not the game changes constantly and has done so for many years. I mean exactly what I said and have said again in several dozen ways and stand by is that a level 30 has no business in a zone designed for 75+.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

oh, well in that case, people who like to exp (key whore) but just don't like the strategy she uses could say the same, no?

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Absolutely.

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OK then by what you just said the end all be all of enjoyable leveling is leeching.

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I never said that.

I said people should level the way they want to.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

I never said that.

I said people should level the way they want to.

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According to you as well as many other people in this thread its either the old way that "sucks" or leeching your levels neither of which needs to be true as we have all seen but suggestions for compromise between the 2 sides have been largely ignored when they shouldn't be. Contrary to your belife leeching effects everyone on the game not just those who leech if it was actually possible to avoid leechers 100% I would be a happy camper but its not there is no reliable way to avoid partying with them while still enjoying the broader scope of the game. If there was a way to label people who leech in a /search this would be a nonissue.

There are people who play your way and still suck, so I'm not really seeing your point here. They have an affect on everyone as well.

There are going to be horrible players and yes, you're 100% right, we can't avoid them all 100% of the time, but guess what. Leechers aren't the only people in that category.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Whether other people enjoy it or not, if you do not, then your claims of enjoying the entire game are false. As for me, I enjoyed doing chests when I leveled Corsair (only job I leveled prior to 75 in abysssea)

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Actually i kind of liked it too. It was mildly entertaining. Certainly nothing i'd want to do regularly, but every once in a while, i wouldn't mind it.

it not like old fastion way stinks just if ya want a instant 90 job this way shouldnt be first choice
i dont care if ya do it but damn lol skilling up sucks
i would hate to do it but that just me

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

There are people who play your way and still suck, so I'm not really seeing your point here. They have an affect on everyone as well.

There are going to be horrible players and yes, you're 100% right, we can't avoid them all 100% of the time, but guess what. Leechers aren't the only people in that category.

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Any way people level there will still be those who do not grasp the game. Since abyssea leeching this number has risen significantly but you are just causing me to beat an dead horse here that you already know but do not choose to look at the effect it does have on others in the game. If it was not a problem and leeches stuck to partying in party's OK with it no one would care either way. As we all know the honor system does not work so unless someone comes up with a good solution this topic will never die.

Who really cares if someone takes their level 30 character in abyssea to do keys for exp. Not me.

There are other problems that could be fixed this really isn't a problem at all.

ITT: People who are only recently beginning to grasp basic to advanced game mechanics think that the "Bad player influx" (a very mild term) started or increased with Abyssea.

Hint: It didn't. There were thousands of level 75, absolutely horrid players who ruined the game for other people when they managed to get in some sort of group with them years before Abyssea was released. Don't kid yourself into thinking Key-Mastering has allowed a higher number of these people to level up. Before Abyssea, it was East Ronfaure birds and level sync that made everyone hit max level and suck at their jobs. Before East Ronfaure birds and level sync it was Lesser Colibri and ToAU exp that made everyone hit max level and suck at their jobs.

The only thing Abyssea has created is a huge section of FFXI's 'Middle Class' that have managed to gain some autonomy with the release of easily accessible lowman-oriented endgame content and let it go to their heads. There's a reason every top tier player posting in this thread just wants it to end.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

ITT: People who are only recently beginning to grasp basic to advanced game mechanics think that the "Bad player influx" (a very mild term) started or increased with Abyssea.

Hint: It didn't. There were thousands of level 75, absolutely horrid players who ruined the game for other people when they managed to get in some sort of group with them years before Abyssea was released. Don't kid yourself into thinking Key-Mastering has allowed a higher number of these people to level up. Before Abyssea, it was East Ronfaure birds and level sync that made everyone hit max level and suck at their jobs. Before East Ronfaure birds and level sync it was Lesser Colibri and ToAU exp that made everyone hit max level and suck at their jobs.

The only thing Abyssea has created is a huge section of FFXI's 'Middle Class' that have managed to gain some autonomy with the release of easily accessible lowman-oriented endgame content and let it go to their heads. There's a reason every top tier player posting in this thread just wants it to end.

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The increase is not only in the amount of people but in the amount of jobs a distinct difference. People are cutting corners and being lazy on more jobs. This results in on top of an already strugleing to keep up player who just does not grasp the game an otherwise good player coming to an event or party as some gimped crapily played job. Therefore it has worsened the problem that it is so readily available and quick to do like it or not to those who believe aby burning is the best thing since sliced bread. To say that it doesn't exist without it or that it has not increase since introduction is rather naive regardless of opinion on whether the level should be raised.

Okay.

Let's take this one step at a time since you seem to refuse to use paragraph breaks or differentiate between your ideas at all.

There are not more players in general that are max level and bad, you have conceded this point.

Instead, you contend that more of these bad, max level players have more jobs at max level that they are bad at.

Okay. Next you're asserting that *Otherwise Good Players* will now come to things on poorly geared, unskilled jobs.

I contest this point and assert myself that any otherwise good player would not use a poorly geared, unskilled job until it was properly geared and skilled.

You then contend that the problem is that leveling jobs is readily available and quick.

I contest this point and assert that leveling has no effect on whether or not someone is a bad player, or has multiple unskilled jobs.

You then say that it would be naive to believe that [quick and easy leveling] doesn't exist without [Abyssea], and [unskilled player numbers] have not increased since [Abyssea's] introduction.

It does. They haven't. People are still dumb. Leveling has been easy for years. The difference now is... No, there's no difference now. Just more bad players looking down on worse players.

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Originally Posted by Dubberrucky

The increase is not only in the amount of people but in the amount of jobs a distinct difference. People are cutting corners and being lazy on more jobs. This results in on top of an already strugleing to keep up player who just does not grasp the game an otherwise good player coming to an event or party as some gimped crapily played job. Therefore it has worsened the problem that it is so readily available and quick to do like it or not to those who believe aby burning is the best thing since sliced bread. To say that it doesn't exist without it or that it has not increase since introduction is rather naive regardless of opinion on whether the level should be raised.

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Eh, it's not like bad players have been increasing. Most of the playerbase has been around for years.

Rather, I think you're confusing the real issue. Instead of sitting in town for days trying to organize events (before bads ruined it for you), you now get to do it inside an hour - because there's more people to choose from and party structure is largely irrelevant. It's not that the problem got worse, it's that it's more emphasized, and most people will take that, because their chances to succeed went up as well.

arguing w/ Dubber on this point is pretty useless. The point stays the same but the reason behind it just cycles through the ninjutsu elemental wheel. 3 full cycles so far on this thread?

Meh probably more than 3 but when people continue to miss the point it keeps on going. It amuses me that they all get so bothered by a different opinion but I could give an entire book of reasons that I have that opinion lol.

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Originally Posted by Dubberrucky

Meh probably more than 3 but when people continue to miss the point it keeps on going. It amuses me that they all get so bothered by a different opinion but I could give an entire book of reasons that I have that opinion lol.

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Maybe if you had a point to make that wasn't wrong, we wouldn't miss it. When someone says something sooo beyond stupid, many people will simply assume they misunderstood, or that you worded it poorly, and assume you meant something else. After all, why would you ever intentionally say something that is so stupid, and wrong?

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Originally Posted by Dubberrucky

Meh probably more than 3 but when people continue to miss the point it keeps on going. It amuses me that they all get so bothered by a different opinion but I could give an entire book of reasons that I have that opinion lol.

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no body is missing the point but you. Changing the claimed underlying reason is what you do when your reason is smashed to the ground as completely invalid or just not important to others. Then rinse recycle. Its almost like arguing by filibuster. Tire them out so they don't care to keep repeating themselves since you can't just keep talking to prevent anyone else from having the chance.

I think this thread makes it pretty clear that most do not share your opinion.

I have to sort of agree with that. I see many people burning to 90 through Abyssea, but do not gain any of the skills from actually going through the process of leveling up. I understand also though that many people won't even exp in many of the old places as well.

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but do not gain any of the skills from actually going through the process of leveling up.

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So, please. Tell me what skills a smn main heal gets lv'ing 10-75+ (because that's all they ever get invited for) to help them with their use of avatars at 90.

What skills do rdm get in exp pts 10-75+ that make them better soloist than bsts at 90 or the best fell cleave burn pullers?

etc. etc. etc.

The way you play 99% of the jobs 1-89 is not how you play them at 90.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

The way you play 99% of the jobs 1-89 is not how you play them at 90.

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So uh, what skills do they get in abyssea by opening chests helps them at 90?

You know, let's just not have levels anymore. It seems like too much work.

Let's just forget that whole Maat thing, while we're at it.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

So uh, what skills do they get in abyssea by opening chests helps them at 90?

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None.

Which isn't much worse than what you'd get from killing some pink birds.

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So uh, what skills do they get in abyssea by opening chests helps them at 90?

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When did I ever claim that's where you got skills? You guys are the ones claiming that skill comes from leveling the traditional way.

I'm saying neither gives you skill at a job.

Research your damn job and once you do the research practice the proper application of what you researched. That's where the skill comes from.

If you can do what I just said above, it matters not how you get to 90, so level the way you prefer.

If you like to level traditionally, do so. If you prefer to open chests, do so.

In the end, if you research your job, and are able to apply what you learned in game, you will be a good player.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Research your damn job and once you do the research practice the proper application of what you researched. That's where the skill comes from.

If you can do what I just said above, it matters not how you get to 90, so level the way you prefer.

If you like to level traditionally, do so. If you prefer to open chests, do so.

In the end, if you research your job, and are able to apply what you learned in game, you will be a good player.

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This. So many times this. I don't get why all the people screaming that Abyssea ruined exp, or the game, or people think we're trying to force our preferred way of exping on them.

To be honest, i did not read all this thread, i can just imagine is just a tons of QQ, i am just surprise that people cry to get it more easy, leveling never been that easy, next step of SE would be to make your Character lv90 on creation with full skill. i mean common guy, can't ask SE to do better then what it is already. Level form 1 to 11 can be done in 1h max, then you can smn burn from 11 to 30 in another 1h... and in 3~5 hours can jump form 30 to 90... Skill up frequency been raised...

Really though in all honesty, if you don't research the job(s) you leveled up via key leeching in Abyssea, and learn how to play them in some way shape or form before Level 30, then you shouldn't really play the job. For some people (myself included), I see the leeching as a way to take up jobs I've wanted to take up for a while but dont want to spends weeks (sometimes even months) to get it to 75 (90 these days). Theres jobs I took up into the 50s and 60s before the increased level caps that I've wanted to do but couldn't since I really didn't have the extra time to do those jobs, and know how to play those jobs already, Abyssea Leeching is just a way to get your job up to the higher levels faster so you can enjoy it more. Sadly, these days though... see way too many people playing on jobs that really don't know what they are doing... Full Aurore DNCs are one of them that comes to mind, I see SMNs full-timing AF1, and have since the Level Sync introduction.... What Abyssea introduced was more people playing jobs poorly, but it's not the sole reason for it. Level Sync really introduced it in some aspects.

I don't usually reply more than once to anyone with Justin Bieber in their signature, but I'll make an exception this one time.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

I'm saying neither gives you skill at a job.

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Oh, did square introduce that patch that makes all jobs melees that don't time shadows, learn spells, gear swap, use any job abilities, self-skill-chains and stand idly about 90 percent of the time only to use a single command on a non threatening NPC target to auto-win simple fights?

I suppose in that case, you're right.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

practice the proper application of what you researched. That's where the skill comes from.

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Well, I guess a pickup Shinryu fight is just perfect for practice then! Who cares if you have no actual melee skill. There's an an atma for that, right?

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

This. So many times this. I don't get why all the people screaming that Abyssea ruined exp, or the game, or people think we're trying to force our preferred way of exping on them.

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Now that's an interesting and somewhat true statement. There are some people who react with rather strong hyperbole about what the effects of Abyssea actually are. To some extent, their complaints are invalid. Though, I don't think I've actually ever heard anyone say something so far as it's being "forced upon them."

Furthermore, this thread isn't concerning the greater effects of Abyssea, just the great deal of imbalance caused at levels that are far below what one might expect to be appropriate.

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Well, I guess a pickup Shinryu fight is just perfect for practice then! Who cares if you have no actual melee skill. There's an an atma for that, right?

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You can get plenty of practice in while you're skilling up from being so far behind. By the time you get your skills capped you should be versed in your job, provided you actually did research and was applying it during your skill up time.

Fighting robber crabs and colibri isn't going to get you ready for Shinryu, either.

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Originally Posted by Chrisstreb

Really though in all honesty, if you don't research the job(s) you leveled up via key leeching in Abyssea, and learn how to play them in some way shape or form before Level 30, then you shouldn't really play the job. For some people (myself included), I see the leeching as a way to take up jobs I've wanted to take up for a while but dont want to spends weeks (sometimes even months) to get it to 75 (90 these days). Theres jobs I took up into the 50s and 60s before the increased level caps that I've wanted to do but couldn't since I really didn't have the extra time to do those jobs, and know how to play those jobs already, Abyssea Leeching is just a way to get your job up to the higher levels faster so you can enjoy it more. Sadly, these days though... see way too many people playing on jobs that really don't know what they are doing... Full Aurore DNCs are one of them that comes to mind, I see SMNs full-timing AF1, and have since the Level Sync introduction.... What Abyssea introduced was more people playing jobs poorly, but it's not the sole reason for it. Level Sync really introduced it in some aspects.

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I did all my job to 75 pre-abyssea release, and to be honest there not much difference, when you level job like BLM (let say the hardest way) then you have to buy spell/gear/song and so on, that you might never use again at lv75 (or let now say 90) I could have say something different back in the time where CoP was still caped, but is not anymore the case.

To say someone will play better just because he did from lv1 to 90 the hard way is just wrong, i have just too many job to keep track of all new JA/Magic/strategy etc, no matter how good i was with all job 75, it worth nothing anymore for me since every job have a different play style since abyssea got introduced. So what i mean is i had to relearn everything for all job, so i am not more expert then any new player rushing his job to 90. (i still have more general experience, but what that worth since everyone interest is only abyssea now... And who say what i learned will really apply for lv99 release...)

Just a quick example, Look at warrior, they fell cleave 40 mob at the same time (no way you going to learn how to do this pre-90). Do they really need to know how to SC with other mele job? Or learn how to Trick attack tank, so why even bother anymore with these detail. For WHM you don't really need cure bomb everyone for 2,000 hours to learn the job... For RDM job, well is kinda messed up for them, they just have too many play style. Anyway i am not going to talk about all job, but in general what i learned pre-abyssea and what it is now is 2 different world.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

Oh, did square introduce that patch that makes all jobs melees that don't time shadows, learn spells, gear swap, use any job abilities, self-skill-chains and stand idly about 90 percent of the time only to use a single command on a non threatening NPC target to auto-win simple fights?

I suppose in that case, you're right.

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His comment runs under the assumption that the people who would read up on their jobs and be able to apply said knowledge within the game would be the ones likely to skillup their weapons, get the spells, skill their magic, understand how to skillchain and magic bust and so on. He does not in any way say you learn what you need to by leeching. He merely contests that you don't need to do a normal party in order to learn (and apply) those skills or tactics either.

I for one, agree with this. If you've been playing the game for a while you should be well aware that there were plenty of level 75's that were horrible. Even before the introduction of Level Sync. Even before the introduction of Campaign. And also before ToAU was introduced.

One of his main points is that gimps have always existed and will always exist. The way they level has zero impact on this. An idiot that whacks away at Robber Crabs or Colibri to 75 (90) will still be an idiot. An idiot that keys chests to 90 will still be an idiot. Many other people are trying to argue that Abyssea has produced more idiots, which they're mostly attributing to key leeching. The people who are smart will pretty much always be smart at their job. None of the jobs in the game are hard, and any reasonable person will be able to properly gear their job and play it regardless of how they got it to level 90. The smart people I'm talking about are likely to understand the value of having their spells, skilling their weapons and understanding how to properly time shadows and/or other spells.

Making people level the "original way" will serve as nothing more than a timesink and/or cockblock (if people abhor the original way of leveling) if the player in question is good. Making the bad players level the "original way" will do nothing to improve their performance, and they'll still make it to max level one way or another. The only valid argument I'm seeing against Abyssea leeching is that these bad players will have more jobs at max level. I will concede and agree on this point. Though, I'll ask in return: what difference does that make? They'll be terrible whether they have one job at max level or all 20. They'll just have more flexibility when it comes to grouping with other terrible players. Again, so what? If it takes 18 terrible players to do what a group of smart players could do with 2-6, then hey, at least they can get some shit done for themselves. Abyssea leeching is not the problem. The problem is the players themselves. As has been mentioned before, this can be solved by playing with people you know and trust, or finding people that can trust, and get to know them.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

Now that's an interesting and somewhat true statement. There are some people who react with rather strong hyperbole about what the effects of Abyssea actually are. To some extent, their complaints are invalid. Though, I don't think I've actually ever heard anyone say something so far as it's being "forced upon them."

Furthermore, this thread isn't concerning the greater effects of Abyssea, just the great deal of imbalance caused at levels that are far below what one might expect to be appropriate.

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Read the title of this thread. Now read some of the others thread titles. Now go to some other forums and read those threads. Or even just the topic titles. Hell, just read soem of the posts in this very topic. The idea of "nerfing" Abyssea leeching is fairly prevalent. There are people who want to raise the level cap to 70 to enter Abyssea, or (further) reduce the exp gain to characters in Abyssea under level 75 (70, 90, whatever arbitrary number they decide to use). These are the people trying to "force" their ideas and ways upon others, offering up whatever explanation they can can up with, however ridiculous and/or stupid it might be to make it happen and make it seem like a legitimate concern or issue.

Meanwhile, most everyone in the other camp (the people that like or support leeching) are not arguing that it should be the only option. In fact, many people (myself included) are saying that there is an issue with exp outside Abyssea, even with the new upgrades. I'm all for revamping or enhancing exp in other areas. I understand there are people who wish to exp the old way. I have zero problem with this. If they wanna do it, by all means let them! Make it more viable, too! Hell, I might even do it once in a while for fun. Nearly everyone arguing against the people that want to stop Abyssea leeching has said the same.

I don't want to take away from others enjoyment of the game... so why are they trying to do it to me (and by extension, the others who like Abyssea leeching)? Everyone should be able to level the way they choose, putting a stop to Abyssea leeching is not conducive to this idea.

Any anger or arguing you're seeing from "this side" of the fence is only shooting down the reasons people are asking for Abyssea leeching to stop, because any reason that has been offered is complete bullshit, as well as any reason I can come up with.