Please Rework "FULL BREAK'S" effectiveness + other GA ws's like it DEV TEAM /wave

You want GA enfeebling WS? Get Ukon, spam Ukko's Fury like any normal WAR would. That has slow! zomg! And it's the single most powerful WS in the game today! Followed closely by Drakesbane, Victory Smite and Blade: Hi

Yeah impulse drive was a bit of a disapointment after going though the trouble of getting it.

for impulse drive remember sams and wars get acess to it, so keep it in check per say

they both get sonic thurst, just something to think about.

my stance is that it needs to be better, yes, but do not overdo it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

After speaking to the development team about this, they confirmed that they're planning adjustments for a wide variety of weapon skills, which will include the break-related WS, too. :)

---

Any chance that one of the weapon skills to be adjusted is Cloudsplitter? It needs a lot of help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Septimus

Any chance that one of the weapon skills to be adjusted is Cloudsplitter? It needs a lot of help.

---

I thought it was ment to be weak XD:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

Clouds aren't very hard.


MYSTERY. SOLVED.

---

Why, not like Sams use polearms any more for dmg and wars get even lower skill then sam. Only time you'll see a sam use polearm now is to proc red or for a small chance to proc blu. Another reason so many sams used polearm in the first place was the mobs that everyone wanted to merit on were birds. I have a feeling if they buff across the board war and sam WS would get better and never know they might even throw little love drks way least I would hope.

I'd like to make more use of Warp Sting. Is there any hope for a kitteh like me?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Why, not like Sams use polearms any more for dmg and wars get even lower skill then sam. Only time you'll see a sam use polearm now is to proc red or for a small chance to proc blu. Another reason so many sams used polearm in the first place was the mobs that everyone wanted to merit on were birds. I have a feeling if they buff across the board war and sam WS would get better and never know they might even throw little love drks way least I would hope.

---

I said it could use updating but not to go overboard with it, why would it be fair for it to outdo Drakesbane? that is what i ment by I hope they do not go overboard.

See to me the Quested Weapon Skills, Should have been the best, highest Damage weaponskills in the game. (I'm looking at you Savage Blade, considering what a pain in the butt you were to get compared to the other quested weaponskills.)

It should be then some drgs would bother getting it. Its not just abyburned drgs that don't have it lot of old shcool drgs never bothered with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Teraniku

See to me the Quested Weapon Skills, Should have been the best, highest Damage weaponskills in the game. (I'm looking at you Savage Blade, considering what a pain in the butt you were to get compared to the other quested weaponskills.)

---

before mythic ws i would agree but

power wise:

relic>emp>mythic >WSNM> others.

lets hope 'adjustments' goes in the positive way....

I hope blade ku makes this list or kuma those ws are so useless. Even blade rin out does them and that the ws you get at level 1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

After speaking to the development team about this, they confirmed that they're planning adjustments for a wide variety of weapon skills, which will include the break-related WS, too. :)

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

before mythic ws i would agree but

power wise:

relic>emp>mythic >WSNM> others.

---

Is that your opinion on how things are, or how things should be?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirage

Is that your opinion on how things are, or how things should be?

---

opinion, "should be" based on the person quoted, i can understand if people want to say 300 + ws should be better or what not, just an opinion though.

same with the effects of these ga ws like nin mythic ws should the effect of it be better too?

Regarding the breadth of this thread I personally think its a flaming retarded idea to make weaponskills 'universally' good. Just because something is hard to get, doesn't mean it's good, and doesn't mean it SHOULD be good.
As if breaking WS latents is hard. Me and a friend broke 3 in an hour the other day, two for WSNM one for lvl 100 nyzul.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

opinion, "should be" based on the person quoted, i can understand if people want to say 300 + ws should be better or what not, just an opinion though.

same with the effects of these ga ws like nin mythic ws should the effect of it be better too?

---

I think relic WS's clearly need a power boost or at least a utility boost, considering both Katana and H2H relic ws's increase subtle blow, which is capped on NIN with just trait and Rajas ring + torero torque + Heed Ring + merits (that's without even casting the subtle blow spell), and nearly capped on MNK with the same gear + Tantra crown +2. Almost all of the after affects are completely useless setting aside MAYBE amano and apoc, simply because they let you increase your stats through other gear. Although kaiten and catastrophe are still really poor WS's.

It seems that SE has already made this effort with the lvl90 Relics having something like a 25% ws damage increase, and if we continue to see the damage increase in further weapon upgrades like that it could fix the 'problem.'

A little late in reply, but just to point out:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingfury

I'm asking that they be revised to function in a way that actually makes the ws's worth using while wielding a GA.

---

So you want breaks worked to still be relevant at lv. 75+? What about other WS? Double Thrust? Viper Bite? Fast Blade? Raging Axe? Etc etc.
If you want to boost break WSs then you should want to boost all the low level WSs too.

Because the argument "Breaks were never good" is a complete falacy. In earlier days, in low level parties, the accepted "rule" to being a good Gaxe user (even on drk, if you were going for best performance, you'd use a gaxe in the 20s/30s) was "Below 50%HP, sturmwind, above 50%TP, Shield break for the -evasion boost. Because you can still have epicly good accuracy gear, PCC and other high price items, but accuracy is still the biggest hinderance to low level DDs. (Back in a time when leveling mattered, before abyssea).

But yeah, if you were a good WAR, then you used Shield Break and Sturmwind depending on the situation.

WSs are designed to get outdated. In the 20s, Double Thrust was a good WS. By the 50s it's completely worthless because of getting Penta Thrust. The same is true for Raging Axe and Rampage. Combo and raging fists. Fast blade and vorpal blade. etc etc etc. WS get outdated. There's no real logical reason to boost those old "Break" WSs by themselves.

If we're talking about Full Break, and that it's a WSNM WS that's useless then that is a fair point, however I would state:
1) Many WSNM WSs are crap. (G)Impulse Drive? Crap. Black Halo? Crap. Decimation? Crap. Savage Blade? 90% Crap. etc etc.
2) If you want to fix Full Break, you should want to fix the other crap WSNM WSs too. I wouldn't mind a fix to make some of the WSNM WSs better, and I hope that lsat developer's reply was regarding WSNM WSs.

*I say these WSNM WSs ars "crap", what I mean is lower skill level ws are better. like Penta Thrust > Gimpulse Drive. Rampage > Decimation. Vorpal Sword > Savage Blade, etc etc etc.

This sums up my views/beliefs in regards to this topic. Post 119

You want WSs to be scableable, great. I get that.
But why just the Break WSs? I can't see a logical reason why you would want the "Break" WSs to be fixed to be relevent every level, but don't want other such weaponskills.

If it was just oversight at the beginning of the topic and you do feel that you want all WSs scaleable, and not just the Breaks then I can accept that. I don't agree with you about it, but I can still understand and appreciate your view.
However, if you think the "Break" WSs should be upgraded in this way but don't care for any of the other low-level WSs, then I have a problem with your argument as I see no logical way how you can think it should apply only to the Break WSs.

My stance is that all ws's should be scaleable and effective throughout a players growth. Break ws's were just the ones that I chose to focus on for this thread topic.

I sure want my iron tempest to be as strong as steel cyclone. That would totally make it worth doing 300 wspoints and running to the middle of nowhere to kill some NS

Yeah, that's not a very reasonable stance. Weaponskills should be balanced for their level, but it's simply not reasonable to expect all of your weaponskills to be useful for all the levels. How are you going to balance Double Thrust against Penta Thrust? Full Break vs. Armor/Weapon/Shield Break? Keen Edge vs. Raging Rush?

That said, it would be nice if SE could balance weaponskills across jobs. Then Dark Knights wouldn't end up using Great Axe for the first 50+ levels, Thieves wouldn't end up using Sword or H2H for the first 32-34 levels, Dancer wouldn't end up using Sword or H2H for the first 50+ levels, etc.

Or if you're not in a party, the first good ws a thf gets is dancing edge, at level 60.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

Yeah, that's not a very reasonable stance. Weaponskills should be balanced for their level, but it's simply not reasonable to expect all of your weaponskills to be useful for all the levels. How are you going to balance Double Thrust against Penta Thrust? Full Break vs. Armor/Weapon/Shield Break? Keen Edge vs. Raging Rush?

---

------------
Weaponskill Modifiers and job abilities and other buffs would be my answer. Steel Cyclone isn't worth using unless you're popping it off at 300TP. Stacking DEX gear for Evisceration vs something like VIT improves the ws damage. Everything else should be based on what job abilities and food and other buffs you have at the time. It wouldn't really be that difficult to scale.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

That said, it would be nice if SE could balance weaponskills across jobs. Then Dark Knights wouldn't end up using Great Axe for the first 50+ levels, Thieves wouldn't end up using Sword or H2H for the first 32-34 levels, Dancer wouldn't end up using Sword or H2H for the first 50+ levels, etc.

---

----------
This could also be addressed from balancing the effectiveness of ws's all around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingfury

Weaponskill Modifiers and job abilities and other buffs would be my answer. Steel Cyclone isn't worth using unless you're popping it off at 300TP. Stacking DEX gear for Evisceration vs something like VIT improves the ws damage. Everything else should be based on what job abilities and food and other buffs you have at the time. It wouldn't really be that difficult to scale.

---

You don't understand how weaponskill damage is calculated, so here's the page:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ca...n_Skill_Damage

Try to understand why the weaponskills I cited are difficult to reconcile with your idea of all weaponskills remaining useful throughout the entire game.

/sigh Nah Byrth, after 7+years of playing the game, I understand the current ws formula's just fine ^^

I'm speaking in terms of a "reworked/modified" version of all ws's, so everything that we know currently would be /tossed out of the window should the Devs decide to alter the way things are done ws wide. I'm speaking "theoretically" as to what I personally would like ws's efficiency to based on.

At low lvls there's no means to possibly stack the same amount of stat WS Modifiers as you do at high lvls and it would hold true throughout a players growth. Once at a high lvl and maxed combat skill lvls, the rest would be up to the players to stack the appropriate mods to see the best results from their ws's.

Speaking as someone who's pretty much apathetic about Full Break, I can safely say that, on these forums, speaking "theoretically" seems to equate to "completely ignoring the fundamental mechanics of the game because it's easier that way".

Easier for us, near impossible for an extremely limited, underfunded Dev team.

Quote:

---

At low lvls there's no means to possibly stack the same amount of stat WS Modifiers as you do at high lvls

---

This is why break WSs are good at low levels.

Quote:

---

Once at a high lvl and maxed combat skill lvls, the rest would be up to the players to stack the appropriate mods to see the best results from their ws's.

---

We, and I use the term we loosely, already do this right now. If SE were to make all the WSs balanced in terms of WSC and fTP, it would make the added effects on break WSs the only thing that mattered. So instead of every WAR spamming Ukko's or RR they would all be spamming Armor Break or Full Break.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Speaking as someone who's pretty much apathetic about Full Break, I can safely say that, on these forums, speaking "theoretically" seems to equate to "completely ignoring the fundamental mechanics of the game because it's easier that way".
Easier for us, near impossible for an extremely limited, underfunded Dev team.

---

--------------
^^ True Strike Greatguardian

It's no different than what science fiction does for inventors and scientist. Thinking outside of what's currently possible is extremely hard to do for those that have been bound by laws and formulas for most of their careers, but those uninhibited by such boundaries are the ones that truly push those minds to break through what's currently possible.

Sometimes it's necessary to invite such thinking to "change" the perception of what can and can't be done. I very seriously doubt the Dev Team is afraid of change at this point in FFXI's life after a complete renaissance of changes all throughout these past years. Things we as lvl 75 players would have never have dreamed possible in this game has become common place thanks to the very idea of "ignoring the fundamental mechanics of the game" to achieve new and radical plateaus for us to experience. Hell, if someone would have told you at lvl 75 back in the day that you would soon be able to dish out ws damage ranging from 4-10k+ even if only within a special battlefield area, you would have called them a fruit bat and /laughed in their face lol. But look at us now.

Like with the "Tier II 2hrs" thread here on these boards, the Devs welcomed radical thinking on the topic, and they're well aware that once they receive such feedback they can scale back as needed. The point is, once you have those radical ideas on the table that are completely outside of what's considered the norm or possible, you now have the most perfect clay to mold with to sculpt something absolutely original from it.

I'm aware it's hard to digest suggested change based on opinion, but hey, that's why they made these boards right? ^^

Quote:

---

Hell, if someone would have told you at lvl 75 back in the day that you would soon be able to dish out ws damage ranging from 4-10k+ even in a special battlefield area, you would have called them a fruit bat and /laughed in their face lol.

---

Or we could have used a 5th grade math formula to see that it was easily possible. And for the record, you aren't trying to change perception, you are trying to make a different game than the one we are playing. I see from some of your most recent posts that you still don't have any understanding of game mechanics. I suggested weeks ago that you spend 2 or 3 hours learning them so you would know how certain things were applied in game. I'm sure you've spent more than 3 hours coming up with arguments as to why you are a creative genius despite not having actually come up with anything to support your ideas. How about now, instead of continuing to sound foolish, you take a night off, go check over the wiki to see what the formulas do, and come up with something creative and reasonable that actually makes sense. All we've seen so far is a half baked idea to give WAR JAs that DNC already has (and doesn't use). It would be obvious to you why it was a bad idea if you knew the formulas. So again, in the interest of being able to judge for yourself why we think this thread is moronic, go. It will save you time in the end.

why do you even post on these threads Tybud? lol Will no one argue with you in RL?

What do you think these boards are for truely? A place to pitch new ideas based on what's currently in the game only? New Job abilities that do nothing really "new" at all because they would break the current game code if they in fact did do something new? Just do everyone here a favor and leave now and never return if you have no plans of contributing ANYTHING original in terms of NEW IDEAS for FFXI. Because I've checked, and you've contributed nothing... zero ideas for the Dev Team on these boards. Yet you feel the need to dare try and inhibit another's creative suggestion. Why? It's more than silly to hear your troll-filled cheeks spitting nothing but negativity at anything you didn't come up with yourself ^^

Posted by Comm. Rep Bayohne in the "New ideas for v2 Two - Hour abilities?" post 19:
"Hey gang! Thanks as always for the feedback! We're letting the dev. team know about your comments and ideas, so make sure to keep 'em coming!
Let your imagination run wild! Then reel it in a little bit... then post! Or, don't reel it in at all!"

Yeah, this sounds like they want every player to go and spend hours training their minds to be ABSOLUTELY closed to anything outside of the current game formulas and possibilities of FFXI as it is before posting... "Imaginative" ideas!! ^^

Go argue with yourself in the corner somewhere PLEASE, and save room for posters that actually understand what a creative suggestion board is for. No need to respond at all, SERIOUSLY.

I'm all for good ideas being furthered, but this one is bad. It is in my best interest to not see bad ideas implemented in game simply because some egotist declared himself King of Outside the Box. Do you really think there would be 7 pages of opposition to this idea if it were any good? You need to drop it. It sucks. Go work on your next life goal.

OK good! So you understand! Now, lets say you theoretically make stat mods that grow throughout a player's levels. Furthermore, lets say you perfectly balance them so that all weaponskills average equal damage for a naked level 90 player!

Double Thrust, being two hits, would need substantially higher mods than Penta Thrust, being five hits, to accomplish this, would it not?

Now you put on WS gear. You have an awesome WS set gained 70 STR. Oh no! Now Double Thrust's stronger mods make it the better weaponskill! Now you use Double Thrust all the time!

OKOK, so they balance the mods for someone with your STR in WS gear. Oh no! Your friend just reactivated and has less strength than you. Penta Thrust is the better weaponskill for him and he uses it all the time!

Unless all the weaponskills have the same modifiers and same fTP, there will always be a "best" due to our ability to swap gear, merit, have racial differences, etc. What you're asking for is irrational and impossible. You seem to realize this, at least subconsciously, which is shown in your title. You don't ask for them to fix the "Break" family. You just ask for Full Break.

@Byrth: Nah, the title of the thread is "Please Rework "FULL BREAK'S" effectiveness + other GA ws's like it", so I'm targeting all break ws's with this thread.

My suggestion on the topic of making all ws's scaleable is based on making the effectiveness and power of ws's continually grow with each player as they increase in combat skills and lvl stats. That doesn't mean there still wouldn't be ws's that have certain shining qualities over other ws's, just that the effectiveness and efficiency of ws's in your list regardless of if they were acquired at low levels would still hold worth a high levels.

Even though the WS Modifications system as we've known it for all these years is governed by well known formulas and conditions, my opinion to modify ws's to be balanced based on such a concept is because it would be rewarding to see the powerful results at high levels with all of our many stat stacking options to early acquired ws's. Finding what stats modify the ws in question, and then proceeding to stack those stats to see the best results is a great feeling when they actually increase the damage lol. The problem currently with this, is that it just doesn't work so well for early acquired ws's based on the current code that governs the system.

Results would still vary from ws to ws since nearly everything in this game has certain "conditions" as to they're effectiveness. Chance of critical hit varies with TP, Damage varies with TP, and Aftermaths such as Occasionally deals double damage, etc. I'm not suggesting that everything be equal at all, just tweaked to scale with our growing power. If you asked me should Sturmwind hold the potential to do 2k+ damage at lvl 90? I would say yes. It's a ws that's designed to do damage, so as we grow in power and increase our stats, the damaging potential of the such a ws should also grow. Should a player have to build ws sets to see those impressive results instead of just expecting them to be strong while in TP gear? I say yes. The WS Mods based on early acquired ws's could even be something of a challenge vs high level ws's due to the nature of when a player gets them, so long as they work as intended.

Nothing is impossible so long as you're the folks that hold the power to mold the system as you see fit. I'm not saying that I would rebuild the system, and that's not the point of these suggestion boards. If we all had the know how of redesigning the game as we saw fit, there would be no need for a suggestion board, but since most of us can't, changes based on our opinions is what we have to work with. The Devs take suggestions from there and have the power to change the system based on the possibilities. Like augmenting an Osode, something the game couldn't allow before now can be done based on a newly added system. Don't close your mind to an idea simply because it conflicts with current game formulas and processes, since all these things can be altered.

Quote:

---

If you asked me should Sturmwind hold the potential to do 2k+ damage at lvl 90?

---

Just FYI, sturmwind can do 2000 damage at level 90. So i guess that means you're satisfied!

If Sturmwind did the best average damage, the practical Warrior would only use Sturmwind. When weaponskills just do damage, there are no niches for them to fill. Great Axe is actually fortunate to have multiple weaponskills that are not pure damage and that potentially have situational uses. Polearm is substantially less fortunate.

I agree that some weaponskills need to be adjusted. I disagree that you can somehow invent a scaling mod system that prevents one or two weaponskills from being the best damage weaponskill.

I would make the following changes to our weaponskills:
10 - Shield Break: Increased Magical Accuracy for en-Evasion Down
40 - Iron Tempest: No change
70 - Sturmwind: Make it scale with TP as the description says, remove the funkiness that makes both of its hits 100% accurate when Sneak Attacked.
100 - Armor Break: Increased Magical Accuracy
150 - Keen Edge: Increase STR mod to 50%, double the crit boost
175 - Weapon Break: Increased Magical Accuracy
200 - Raging Rush: No changes
225 - Full Break: Increased Magical Accuracy
240 - Steel Cyclone: No changes
300 - Fell Cleave: No changes
lv75 - King's Justice: I'd increase first-hit fTP to 1.5 and have it scale up to 2.5, but this could also just be left alone.
lv85 - Ukko's Fury: No changes

In the end, at 90, Ukon WARs would use:
Ukko's Fury - For damage
Steel Cyclone - With Sneak Attack, maybe
Full Break - When debuffs from Full Break are more important than the damage you could have done with a WS
King's Justice - Potentially for Mighty Strikes still, if the changes are made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

If Sturmwind did the best average damage, the practical Warrior would only use Sturmwind. When weaponskills just do damage, there are no niches for them to fill. Great Axe is actually fortunate to have multiple weaponskills that are not pure damage and that potentially have situational uses. Polearm is substantially less fortunate.

I agree that some weaponskills need to be adjusted. I disagree that you can somehow invent a scaling mod system that prevents one or two weaponskills from being the best damage weaponskill.

I would make the following changes to our weaponskills:
10 - Shield Break: Increased Magical Accuracy for en-Evasion Down
40 - Iron Tempest: No change
70 - Sturmwind: Make it scale with TP as the description says, remove the funkiness that makes both of its hits 100% accurate when Sneak Attacked.
100 - Armor Break: Increased Magical Accuracy
150 - Keen Edge: Increase STR mod to 50%, double the crit boost
175 - Weapon Break: Increased Magical Accuracy
200 - Raging Rush: No changes
225 - Full Break: Increased Magical Accuracy
240 - Steel Cyclone: No changes
300 - Fell Cleave: No changes
lv75 - King's Justice: I'd increase first-hit fTP to 1.5 and have it scale up to 2.5, but this could also just be left alone.
lv85 - Ukko's Fury: No changes

---

Agree, agree, agree.

These are the moderate changes that would make the full list Great Axe weapon skills much, much better overall than they currently are, while not making things overpowered.

Increased accuracy / lowered resist rates is what the Break WS could best benefit from. Break WS should not be so powerful that they obsolete debuff spells, but they do need a boost to make them worth using, and improved (debuff) accuracy is probably the thing that does that best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirage

Just FYI, sturmwind can do 2000 damage at level 90. So i guess that means you're satisfied!

---

-----------
Yeah I've done some great numbers playing around with it ^^ so yeah my point is "should" such a low lvl damaging ws hold the potential to do such damage. My answer is yes.

And it does, so what exactly are you complaining about. However, who in their right mind would use a 2k damage WS when they can use a 4k+ damage ws (raging rush)

@Byrth:
Again Byrth, I don't mean to steal the thunder from higher lvl ws's, since I believe they should in fact hold unique damage factors apart from lower level ws. Like Ukko's is perfect for what it is in terms of being a giant amongst damaging ws and having such a great aftermath, so I agree it's fine just the way it is. Since we have multiple "damaging ws's" in our lists however, I just want those ws's to not be worthless should a player choose to use it.

The whole argument of "Why even use it when you could just spam Ukko's" is one that I really can't defend in terms of how the game is currently. It truly would make more sense if we just had one main ws listed for "damaging ws's" in our list as we acquired the newest one in the line as we increased our combat skills vs having a list full of weaker ws's not worthy of touching. My point and question to the Devs is if we do have the choice to pick from a number of ws's to cause damage with, shouldn't each of them hold the same "potential" to cause high amounts of damage? The similar question for Break ws's; why would we use these enfeebling ws over our most powerful damaging ws's if their return does not outweigh the alternative.

So there's no real argument in terms of tweaks to the forgotten ws's that collect dust in our lists, and your suggestions would be cool to see.