[Dev 1009] Force Pop HNM's FTW

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Originally Posted by Denabond

At least now people who have lives can slowly work on getting pops for a chance at the item rather then being unable to since they cant be on when they pop. Sure they can just reduce the pop time to 2.5 hours for each of them, but then really that's just handing out BB on a silver platter. Let it some rareity to it.

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I agree with you there I'm not advocating against opening the pops to the public. I just wish it was more like I guess Nyzul kings you could do them once per day they have a shitty drop rate for nq and or drops and then everyone could access them. I like the ENM suggestion even more all three once every 3 days and a little bit better of a drop rate. Not saying dont give us the ability to do them. Just give us the ability to do them reasonably.

Whipped up a quick app to simulate it to see results.

Set:
- 22% Drop rate from KSNM (from Clopedia)
- 50% Drop rate from HQHNM (Used to be 100%, but now decreased)
- 10% Drop rate of HQTrigger
(Remember this NM was like 3-7 days? so they dont want u popping like 2-3 HQ's a day, i wouldnt be surprised if this was going to be a lot less than 10%)

Results: after 100 BB Items
Average required seals 1200
Average Attempts 13
Average Fights = 50

i like this idea it gives u reason to get rid of bseals and all pl can get good items do 12 man aaliance thats 12 runs of KSNM99 everyone will get pop ittem and other items to sell or whatever thats great for a LS event

Honestly getting BB items just got much easier. You get 2 damn chances at your item instead of one. The Kings themselves arn't being adjusted in toughness either. If you can't kill Kings @ level 90 with a lowman group then you really need to wonder if you really will put that Black Belt to good use.

The amount of QQIng about this is seriously amazing. Some of the posts I've read are outright retarded and foolish. A Black Belt is still one of the best items in the game. I hate to come off sounding like an elitist but I'm happy that the method while easier isn't something everyone is going obtain.

A Black Belt is still considered by most a commitment of being a MNK. It shouldn't be handed out like cake like some of you people are asking for.

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Originally Posted by Ezikiel

i like this idea it gives u reason to get rid of bseals and all pl can get good items do 12 man aaliance thats 12 runs of KSNM99 everyone will get pop ittem and other items to sell or whatever thats great for a LS event

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Yah 12 peeps could on average get 1 BB item for 1 person, tbh not bad if you have ls/friends willing to do that and there aint like 10 people after BB lol

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Originally Posted by SNK

Honestly getting BB items just got much easier. You get 2 damn chances at your item instead of one. The Kings themselves arn't being adjusted in toughness either. If you can't kill Kings @ level 90 with a lowman group then you really need to wonder if you really will put that Black Belt to good use.

The amount of QQIng about this is seriously amazing. Some of the posts I've read are outright retarded and foolish. A Black Belt is still one of the best items in the game. I hate to come off sounding like an elitist but I'm happy that the method while easier isn't something everyone is going obtain.

A Black Belt is still considered by most a commitment of being a MNK. It shouldn't be handed out like cake like some of you people are asking for.

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^

A voice of reason has appeared, like a shining beacon of light piercing the cloud of stupidity.

If you don't want to commit to a BB, Brown/Twilight Belt MNKs can compete just fine. What is so hard for people to understand?

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Originally Posted by SNK

A Black Belt is still considered by most a commitment of being a MNK. It shouldn't be handed out like cake like some of you people are asking for.

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You forget that most people at that "elitism" equate commitment to the game to how much you're willing to pay for a good bot.

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Originally Posted by SNK

You act as if people don't like to help friends obtain gear.

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Depends on how those people define "friends".

I'd say your statement reflects this playerbase a lot more than you believe it to.

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Originally Posted by SNK

Honestly getting BB items just got much easier. You get 2 damn chances at your item instead of one

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Are you being serious? Or did you forget that before you had 3 chances before?

Random NQ King
Random KSNM
100% HQNM

now

Random KSNM
Random HQNM

Yet only one group could benefit from the HQ per week. The NQ droprate was a freakin joke and KS99 remains the same.

The new system allows MORE people to finish through increased opportunity.

You lose the negligible NQ rate, you get to pop this stuff on your own time and get a second chance on the KS99, arguably the most casual way to get a BB.

Also with people rushing popkings for other loot, the chances of getting a BB also increase with people spawning who have no interest in BB items. This previously would have been people who just sat on kindred seals as KS99 only benefits MNKs atm.

Many people will finish their BB now at the KS99 stage when groups pop for HQ king trigs and eventually cap out on BB items or simply don't care. This can translate to handing out BB items or charging for them, both superior to the previous once/day system.

It doesn't make sense to me..

everybody is saying the ??? are going to be overcrowded but at the same time complaining about how difficult it is to obtain kindred seals.

I'd imagine after a month nearly everybody that cares will have burnt off all their excess kindred seals.


Lets say you had 2K kindred seals... and it takes about 30 mins to get a 99 orb >> run to the zone >> and beat the ksnm

that would be about 10 hours... say maybe 10 days to do all your ksnm if you did it an hour a day

It would take considerable less time to actually kill w/e hnm you go to kill.. but lets say another 10 hours to kill the 20+ triggers you get

so all in all.. maybe 1 hour for 20 days...

Yah.. the zone won't remain crowded for long... if you hate camping a ??? just wait a month

The real problem will be after people blow all their KS and still didn't get the HQ pop item....

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Originally Posted by Twille

The real problem will be after people blow all their KS and still didn't get the HQ pop item....

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I agree lets complain about the right things...

We need alternate methods of acquiring these hnm triggers

Maybe the dev's could add a npc that gives you a free NQ trigger of your choosing once a week

I think the general idea is great! But the rewards in FFXI are always so...random.
Go to the work of gathering 99KS, get a group to kill it, get the pop item for NQ HNM, gather another group, kill it to MAYBE get a pop item for the HQ.
That's too much effort for a POSSIBLE HQ pop.

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Originally Posted by SNK

Honestly getting BB items just got much easier. You get 2 damn chances at your item instead of one. The Kings themselves arn't being adjusted in toughness either. If you can't kill Kings @ level 90 with a lowman group then you really need to wonder if you really will put that Black Belt to good use.

The amount of QQIng about this is seriously amazing. Some of the posts I've read are outright retarded and foolish. A Black Belt is still one of the best items in the game. I hate to come off sounding like an elitist but I'm happy that the method while easier isn't something everyone is going obtain.

A Black Belt is still considered by most a commitment of being a MNK. It shouldn't be handed out like cake like some of you people are asking for.

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No it is not.

Old way > new way for getting BB items chance.

you have one chance from KSNM, then you can go camp the NM witch is less time then getting the KS with a lot higher chance of getting BB items

I am going to try REALLY hard to get egg before this craptasic update takes place. ( may be hard camping it because others may do what i am doing now -.- so update notes makes it hard now)

The only thing i can see being happy about this update is higher chance in D ring, ok, but that does not change the fact it makes BB items harder.

Other then that I still do not understand that makes this update good, it is a step back, i hope they change the orginal notes.

The only benefit to me is that i might have a change at a Dring now....maybe. haha.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

No it is not.

Old way > new way for getting BB items chance.

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Wrong, On so many levels. Its not a massive improvement, but its much better.

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you have one chance from KSNM, then you can go camp the NM witch is less time then getting the KS with a lot higher chance of getting BB items

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Also Likely Wrong, The update notes specify you will always get at least 1 Pop for the NQ NM. Chances are we could get 2-3 Per KSNM. Only problem is the Unknown. Which is "How high is King-pop drop rate?" and 'How much did they nerf King BB item drop rate?", and "Will they be R? or EX? can i sell them? can i hold more than 1?"

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I am goign to try REALLY hard to get egg before this craptasic update takes place.

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Only had 8 years, You'll probably be able to get it now with all the other 80 people who are thinking the same thing you are :|

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The only thing i can see being happy about this update is higher chance in D ring, ok, but that does not change the fact it makes BB items harder.

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Yes it does, The BB Items will be easier to to Obtain in the long run. Theres probably going to be multiple KSNM99 shouts, and with the chance (according to update) to get more than 1 pop per KSNM, i think there will be a lot going around early on. just need to get in on some shouts, or get some friends and do your own runs.

I think this is a fine situation where having Friends is probably paramount.

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Other then that I still do not understand that makes this update good, it is a step back, i hope they change the orginal notes.

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its a step forward, a small step though, Admittedly not a large step. But it is a step. It would have been a large step if they didn't adjust BB Item Drop rate. But as it stands for most of the population (not talking about the 15 some odd people here whining) this will likely be a plus.

Really, my only gripe is them is removing the BB items from NQ, and decreasing it from HQ. seemed like they shot themselves in the foot doing that. Was totally uncalled for. They could have done 1 or the other, but doing both was backpedaling this entire update.

With the way SE operates, do you realistically expect more than one NQ drop per KSNM?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Wrong, On so many levels. Its not a massive improvement, but its much better.

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No it isn't people do not farm HNMs much, people do not have a reason to monopolize HNMs in the respect of buying a bot and paying for said bot from claiming HNMs. people have bigger interest for abyssea. Maybe if this was before abyssea yeah good chance I am wrong, but with times now? no i am not.

the amount people shout should not be an argument to support this change.

It seems a bit tough to get the BB items now which I think is a good thing. This game has lost alot of its luster just because its way to easy. IMO the reason this game was the best was because of its challenge, alot of that has been lost. I want the challenge back.

This is just as dumb as making a shield better than aegis, you put too much time into something, and this noob spends two weeks, and his shield is better.

I haven't read the whole tread buuuuuut

Being able to do 10 NQ kings as and LS event with the chance to do a few HQ is amazing ^^ and something FUN for my ls to do ^^

Thx SE.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

No it isn't people do not farm HNMs much, people do not have a reason to monopolize HNMs in the respect of buying a bot and paying for said bot from claiming HNMs. people have bigger interest for abyssea. Maybe if this was before abyssea yeah good chance I am wrong, but with times now? no i am not.

the amount people shout should not be an argument to support this change.

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So what you're saying here is that. You think the System where the entire population of people after a BB item had at best 1 chance per day, Is better than the Entire population as individuals being able to pop the NM when they get the seals, any time of the day, and multiple times depending on Seals/friends available?

I'm sorry that doesn't make any sense. At BEST the old system allowed 1 Group of people to have a shot at the NM once per day. this new systems gives everyone a shot at the NM (seals allowing) meaning multiple people will kill the NM per day.

its an improvement.

I hate this update, I loved it until the line of nerfing the drop rates on BB items. I'm all for them being force pops, heck ill even go farm the dang KSs to get the dumb pop items. I just want a guarenteed reward of some kind when I finally get a HQ pop item (which im betting is just replacing the BB item from the NQ NM, might as well use a already programmed slot).
That being said that damn turtle KSNM is still a pain in the butt at 90 with 5 BLMs, 2 ppl making darkness to MB off of, a tank and a rdm refreshing everyone and silencing the damn thing. I swear the thing has +1000 MDB.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

So what you're saying here is that. You think the System where the entire population of people after a BB item had at best 1 chance per day, Is better than the Entire population as individuals being able to pop the NM when they get the seals, any time of the day, and multiple times depending on Seals/friends available?

I'm sorry that doesn't make any sense. At BEST the old system allowed 1 Group of people to have a shot at the NM once per day. this new systems gives everyone a shot at the NM (seals allowing) meaning multiple people will kill the NM per day.

its an improvement.

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it is only an improvement if you assume people have a large store of seals, which is not fair. so i call that an invalid argument.

you take more time farming for KS and trying to get BB drop with old system then new system.

old:
you camp NM for 3 hours, good chance of egg.
you farm 99 KSNM for small chance of egg.

new:
you farm 99 KS, small chance of drop.
you get pop item
you get chance of HQ drop.
you have even smaller chance of drop.

it is a step back

or you can only camp witch is less time then farming for ksnm seals ( TIME YOU HAVE TO SPEND PLAYING, not real time of omg we can do more then one in a day)

Easy fix: Ks99 = 100% Drop for 1 of the 3 HNM zone Nm's. Each of the HNM ??? pops have a chance to drop a HQ trig(i hope 50% rate) HQ ??? pop only can drop BB item + all normal drops: Same zone should house New HNM of lvl 99 King's To prevent random people from claiming make it like Sea NM farming where there is a chance, upon kill of HQ HNM, you recieve KI for new HNM: Who knows maybe make Jponry your Final HNM (Quacks alot with 100% KC attack speed and Bloodweapon)
Or make it Like sandworm where instead of KI make it Doomvoid and Have to fight all 3 HQ Kings at once to recieve Black belt +1 20% haste with 15% Pdt- and regain/regen .... SE is great but they have little vision past Aby and I hope at least someone has an original Idea that they can steal to make the game as fun as back in 2003-2005

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Originally Posted by Rambus

it is only an improvement if you assume people have a large store of seals, which is not fair. so i call that an invalid argument.

you take more time farming for KS and trying to get BB drop with old system then new system.

old:
you camp NM for 3 hours, good chance of egg.
you farm 99 KSNM for small chance of egg.

new:
you farm 99 KS, small chance of drop.
you get pop item
you get chance of HQ drop.
you have even smaller chance of drop.

it is a step back

or you can only camp witch is less time then farming for ksnm seals ( TIME YOU HAVE TO SPEND PLAYING, not real time of omg we can do more then one in a day)

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Its only not an Improvement when you think about "ME ME ME ME ME!" like you are.

Really, Complain and map it out as pessimistically as you want. The point is the Old system sucked ass, and this is an Improvement.

Rather you like it or not, The old system only allowed 1 Person to Kill the NM per day, This system allows as many people as possible to pop the NM as often as they want (*Seals permitting). It may not be an Improvement to the people who blew all their Kindred Seals, But to the other 90% of the Population who have been sitting on Stacks of them with no use, this is an improvement.

Rather you personally gain from this or not doesn't make or break the system, as a Whole this is a far better improvement over old style kings. I'm not even talking about Bots or etc cause those are moot at this point.

The point is, as a population, there will be far more Kings Popped/killed per day than the old system permitted, at the very least withing the first ~month or two when everyone is getting their BB items/Drings/Out-datedAbjurations.

I seriously doubt rambus has ever camped adamantoise if he thinks its a good drop rate >_>

and screw standing around for 3 hours... especially when that 3 hours happens to start at 4 AM in the morning... just to be outclaimed

The system is an improvement just for the fact you dont have to stay up to retarded hours of the day

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Originally Posted by Rambus

it is only an improvement if you assume people have a large store of seals, which is not fair. so i call that an invalid argument.

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This patch makes people who didn't have interest in BB items now interested in possible old king items. This means those BB items they dont want go up for grabs. Know all those people who want Drings? Guess what? They wouldn't have been using their kindreds had this change not happened.

More demand for Ks99 = more BB items floating around.

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you take more time farming for KS and trying to get BB drop with old system then new system.

old:
you camp NM for 3 hours, good chance of egg. Wat? NQ kings droprates on BB items was terrible. HQ kings took anything from 3-9 days to pop. Thats multiple DAYS where only one BB item would possibly drop
you farm 99 KSNM for small chance of egg. which was difficult because no one wanted to do ks99 since everything is trash outside BB item

new:
you farm 99 KS, small chance of drop. same chance with a larger pool of participants and the second chance through NQ pop
you get pop item
you get chance of HQ drop.
you have even smaller chance of drop. We don't know the HQ droprate. It could be better than Ks99 and its still a second chance you didn't have before. Add to that you can lure ppl to come help with abjurations.

it is a step back

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It's a step forward.

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

I seriously doubt rambus has ever camped adamantoise if he thinks its a good drop rate >_>

and screw standing around for 3 hours... especially when that 3 hours happens to start at 4 AM in the morning... just to be outclaimed

The system is an improvement just for the fact you dont have to stay up to retarded hours of the day

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I do not think you ever did KSNM egg if you think it is a good drop rate, the NM is better drop rate then that ksnm

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Its only not an Improvement when you think about "ME ME ME ME ME!" like you are.

Really, Complain and map it out as pessimistically as you want. The point is the Old system sucked ass, and this is an Improvement.

Rather you like it or not, The old system only allowed 1 Person to Kill the NM per day, This system allows as many people as possible to pop the NM as often as they want (*Seals permitting). It may not be an Improvement to the people who blew all their Kindred Seals, But to the other 90% of the Population who have been sitting on Stacks of them with no use, this is an improvement.

Rather you personally gain from this or not doesn't make or break the system, as a Whole this is a far better improvement over old style kings. I'm not even talking about Bots or etc cause those are moot at this point.

The point is, as a population, there will be far more Kings Popped/killed per day than the old system permitted, at the very least withing the first ~month or two when everyone is getting their BB items/Drings/Out-datedAbjurations.

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again you are assuming stock piles of ks seals, if that is not memememe i dont know what is.

all i understand is people that like this idea are the same with huge stockpiles.

step back.

You are proving me right here.. the NM has a horrible drop rate also

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

You are proving me right here.. the NM has a horrible drop rate also

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and SE said they are lowering it!

so step back.

oh lowering it in 2 cases, btw

didn't HQ have a 100% drop or some high drop rate?

I think they should make the current crests/seals like the echelon trophies.

High Kindred crests= 2 Kindred crests
Kindred crests = 2 Kindred seals
Kindred seals = 2 Beastmen seals
Beastmen seals bottom tier

and vise versa
2 Beastmen seals = 1 Kindred Seal
2 Kindred seals = 1 Kindred Crest
2 Kindred Crest = 1 High Kindred Crest

also make it so you can take equivalent b. seals to purchase a H.Kindred crest rather than going through the hoops. Aht Urhgan currency comes to mind.


this method would allow those people who have 1023902945098 Beastmen seals lying around doing nothing to use them for relevant material. also would allow the people who have 130234234 Kindred crests, and H.K. crests toward popping NMs

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Originally Posted by Tyraant

I think they should make the current crests/seals like the echelon trophies.

H. Kindred crests are top tier
Kindred crests = 2 Kindred seals
Kindred seals = 2 Beastmen seals
Beastmen seals bottom tier

and vise versa
2 Beastmen seals = 1 Kindred Seal
2 Kindred seals = 1 Kindred Crest
2 Kindred Crest = 1 High Kindred Crest

also make it so you can take equivalent b. seals to purchase a H.Kindred crest rather than going through the hoops. Aht Urhgan currency comes to mind.


this method would allow those people who have 1023902945098 Beastmen seals lying around doing nothing to use them for relevant material. also would allow the people who have 130234234 Kindred crests, and H.K. crests toward popping NMs

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if they do that illshutup, till we can quote drop rates anyway

I agree its a big improvement. I personally got my black belt at lvl 75 before the level cap rise and the bandwagon monk era, but I never found the KSNM99 drop rate that bad. I received 2 out of 3 items from KSNM99, going with friends mostly, and we usually ran a 25-50% drop rate. Just a few months ago we were 2/4 on the Turtle KSNM99. I do remember going for my Behemoth KSNM99 though and getting no tongue and crap drops. I would have been thrilled with a key item/trigger item to pop Behemoth.

Realistically most of the people on a server never had a chance at claiming a land king. If it was so easy why don't you already have your black belt? I know when my best friend was going for his black belt, as 2 working adults we found it hard to camp the land kings due to work schedules, etc. So we ran a KSNM99 event for our social linkshell and got 2 beards and 2 eggs out of 4 runs at each. Now it is even more incentive to do a KSNM 99, which serious monks were doing all along. Even if you get a bad drop on your orb, you will get another chance via this system. How is this not a positive?

As for those without people to help them get the items, this game has been out how long? People seriously don't have friends who will throw in an occasional orb and want a chance to fight a HQ Land king? Not everyone is a bandwagon monk, although it does seem like it at times. I understand many of the new monks are former SAMs who thought they could buy a Hagun and be the King DD, but unfortunately for the these players a black belt has always taken some work. Also, 99 seals is hardly an obstacle for a serious monk intent on getting the best item for their job.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

I do not think you ever did KSNM egg if you think it is a good drop rate, the NM is better drop rate then that ksnm



again you are assuming stock piles of ks seals, if that is not memememe i dont know what is.

all i understand is people that like this idea are the same with huge stockpiles.

step back.

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Step forward.

I understand people Don't have stockpiles of kindred seals, But are you saying you can't join a shout? The way it sounds there could be multiple pops per KSNM so you could get lucky on one. Or, Do you have no friends either? I can't imagine out of all your massive large stocks of friends none of them have a few Kindred seals to help you get a Black Belt?

But really, Theres that narrow-mindedness. You're only thinking "Some people dont have Kindred seals!" instead of "Some people have plenty!"

As with the old system, There are people left out. The old system, one group/person per day had one chance at the drop. Everyone else is screwed.

in this system, Everyone has a chance to kill the NM. As Often as they want (*Seals Permitting). So like the old system, those without seals can fall behind, But in the end, More people have a shot at the NM. More people have a chance to kill it than the old system.

FORWARD STEP. MARCH.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

I agree its a big improvement. I personally got my black belt at lvl 75 before the level cap rise and the bandwagon monk era, but I never found the KSNM99 drop rate that bad. I received 2 out of 3 items from KSNM99, going with friends mostly, and we usually ran a 25-50% drop rate. Just a few months ago we were 2/4 on the Turtle KSNM99. I do remember going for my Behemoth KSNM99 though and getting no tongue and crap drops. I would have been thrilled with a key item/trigger item to pop Behemoth.

Realistically most of the people on a server never had a chance at claiming a land king. If it was so easy why don't you already have your black belt? I know when my best friend was going for his black belt, as 2 working adults we found it hard to camp the land kings due to work schedules, etc. So we ran a KSNM99 event for our social linkshell and got 2 beards and 2 eggs out of 4 runs at each. Now it is even more incentive to do a KSNM 99, which serious monks were doing all along. Even if you get a bad drop on your orb, you will get another chance via this system. How is this not a positive?

As for those without people to help them get the items, this game has been out how long? People seriously don't have friends who will throw in an occasional orb and want a chance to fight a HQ Land king? Not everyone is a bandwagon monk, although it does seem like it at times. I understand many of the new monks are former SAMs who thought they could buy a Hagun and be the King DD, but unfortunately for the these players a black belt has always taken some work. Also, 99 seals is hardly an obstacle for a serious monk intent on getting the best item for their job.

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beard and tongue? egg is the bad one from ksnm

2/4 on egg for your friends? wtf -.-

I have to say that I agree with those who said that this is one of the worst ideas I have seen in a long time out of SE. Like it or not a huge port of this game has always been time spawn NMs. This was something a majority of the player base did enjoy, with or without bots. The entire point of the ks99 was to allow people who did not want to camp time spawn NMs a way to get Black Belt. Einherjar was then a way created to allow people to get King Abj. The only three drops that were worth anything by the time of ToAU that could not be obtained from a force pop situation were Pixie Earring, Defending Ring, and Ridill. Now do not get me wrong all three of those are still epic pieces till this day, but not worth changing an entire system that many people consider a big part of this game.
First off for all but the turtle the ks99 is harder than NQ or HQ spawn, and the only reason for the issue at Aspid is that you have aggro all around you. The others though can be killed by 2 people without an issue and 0 deaths. True the Behemoth ks99 can be killed with 2 BLM no problem could be at 75, but one has to eat Final Meteor. Though still now you cannot duo the Wyrm ks99 due to having to force it down. So why make the harder fights the way to obtain the easier NMs?
Though I do understand those that do not want to camp time spawned NMs, there have always been people on both sides of the issue. You either love it or hate it, though there are still many that get all anxious for those few seconds every 30 min. Why remove the original NMs? Could there not just be an addition of the force pop with lowered drop rates and leave the land kings as is? Minus Tiamat the land kings are the only large time spawn actually being killed.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

beard and tongue? egg is the bad one from ksnm

2/4 on egg for your friends? wtf -.-

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Sounds like you had bad luck for sure on KSNM99 egg. That really sucks but I don't think it is representative of drop rate in general. Unfortunately the random number generator can spin that way at times. I was very bitter at Dynamis when we didn't see a black mage hat in 12 months going to xarc 2 times a month. Personally I would never sweat out an item like that again. Good luck getting your egg, it really isn't to hard to claim NQ turtle on Bismarck, but people may go crazy camping with these changes.

I was wondering when the person defending the timed spawn system of kings would show up.