Cure V

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

You think enfeebling is relevant that's all I had to hear from you.

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If you want to judge like that. You're a rdm in the rdm forum basically saying enfeebling magic has no place in the game.

Edit: Look I captured your original post in quotes before you changed the whole thing. Do I get a prize? ^^

Edit 2: lol Everytime I look back it's changed even more.

As it currently stands on anything of merit, it is either fairly irrelevant bar Dia III potentially Slow 2, Whm and Blm cover the exact same enfeebles and then some, or they're resisted.

ISP disconnecting before I finished only reason for the edits.


EDIT: And on the general forum you acknowledge Rdm enfeebles are mostly useless/unwanted and then try and come here and say Rdm is called on for enfeebling, just get out after that one.

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Originally Posted by Buffy

Testing you can link to that proves your statement? Twilight cape is elemental magic in description on item, cures are healing magic.

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It says "Same elemental magic as weather/day", not "Same elemental elemental magic as weather/day". And the links are : any FFXI wiki.

SE could have just called it "Depending on day/weather: Enhances bonus", but that's SE for you.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

It says "Same elemental magic as weather/day", not "Same elemental elemental magic as weather/day". And the links are : any FFXI wiki.

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I believe the Zodiac Ring only affects elemental magic or something like that, which sortof makes this understandable. The main thing is that looking it up on any of the three major FFXI wiki sites would have clarified it without having to mention a link, like you said.

Yeah, it's mostly poor wording, Zodiac Ring states "Depending on Day: enhances elemental magic".

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Originally Posted by Kristal

It says "Same elemental magic as weather/day", not "Same elemental elemental magic as weather/day". And the links are : any FFXI wiki.

SE could have just called it "Depending on day/weather: Enhances bonus", but that's SE for you.

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It's really not confusing though. Every magic so far has an element, Healing itself is of the Light Element and so on.

Has no effect on Divine Magic, Dark Magic, Healing Magic, or Impact.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Has no effect on Divine Magic, Dark Magic, Healing Magic, or Impact.

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What doesn't?

The ring that everyone seems so confused about.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

The ring that everyone seems so confused about.

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Nah, I believe it's the Twilight Cape someone is arguing does't work on healing magic.

The ring was just brought up in the conversation.

Someone should post a thing in the localization thread with a suggestion of how to fix those so they are clearer.

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Originally Posted by saevel

While I support you in theory, one of the previous posters has already demonstrated that a RDM with Cure V wouldn't be very far behind WHM in cure power. Blame it on SE's rotten scaling of Healing Magic Skill as it effects Cures. In real use people would just see "Cure V" and immediately throw the RDM into a main healing spot. They've been doing that since 2004, it's not gonna change all of a sudden. Doing this would immediately end any and all enhancements SE would do to RDM. Cause no matter what, for all eternity people would just see RDM has a healer -1. Not the best but "good enough", and that's all people care about. Heck I've seen many alliances try to main heal with RDM's right now, doesn't work very well, and you get one tired RDM, but they thing Cure = main healer.

I don't mind supporting a WHM and taking on part of the healing load, and Cure V would make that tons easier. But I would get to "support" for about two weeks until people noticed that you can just do WHM + RDM/WHM x 2 in an 18 main alliance instead of WHM x 3. Of course the WHM would take care of the two tanks, but the RDM's would be forced to babysit the melee's or if he's lucky the BLMs.

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I also forgot to say a while ago that I still think whm is better healer despite what anybody says. The fact that WHM can heal the entire party alone with Curaga lines of spells and hit everybody with a cure for nearly the same mp it would cost a RDM to single target cure everybody. Sure I know people worry about hate and what not but curing 6ppl using Curaga IV for 260 mp is far cheaper than a rdm curing using cure iv at 88mp x5 ppl for 440mp not counting the recast timers and waiting for refresh ii to make up for the 180mp difference and that is not even counting the rdm healing themselves which the whm would be covered in that 260 mp for curaga iv. Just numbers wise it doesnt make any sense to me especially when most of the Cure potency gear is made for whm I dont see how they can take that to say rdm is anywhere near as proficient at healing as WHM. Simply put WHM is just scared of getting hit is what it sound like to me but isnt there some job ability that turns that damage into mp or hp or something?

In any case I myself prefer the best when it comes to healing. Hell even with sub jobs i prefer something that can heal over just adding more damage. In my eyes if you cant heal u cant survive for very long if at all. In an ideal world everybody would be /dnc, /whm, /rdm and use tier 3 cure/curagas at the max and ONLY the WHM could use anything higher if needed like after an AoE TP move or something but we dont live in that ideal world.

In any case in my opinion the whm shouldn't be single targe healing anybody PERIOD. RDM could step in to single target the paladin where additional cures may be needed as well as tend to keeping the whm on it feet and refreshed. If things worked like that I could deal with healing no problem and still melee a bit. It is also why i RDM/DNC so that i can cycle between cure 3 and 4 as well as curing walts 2 and 3 to eliminate as much downtime from recasts of cures with waltzes that dont get interrupted but to work in a party i must melee to gain some tp. When u add up all 4 of those rdm can heal for 650hp or so in one attack round with C4 + CW3 or over 1000 in 2 attack rounds if u follow up with C3 + CW2. Even with that it still doesn't compare to a WHM being able to cure like almost 2000hp with curaga iv for 260 mp or almost 3000hp in one shot with curaga v for only 380 mp.

I understand what you saying though there is not changing the minds of these stubborn but looking at those numbers I say they are crazy.

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Originally Posted by CapriciousOne

I also forgot to say a while ago that I still think whm is better healer despite what anybody says. The fact that WHM can heal the entire party alone with Curaga lines of spells and hit everybody with a cure for nearly the same mp it would cost a RDM to single target cure everybody. Sure I know people worry about hate and what not but curing 6ppl using Curaga IV for 260 mp is far cheaper than a rdm curing using cure iv at 88mp x5 ppl for 440mp not counting the recast timers and waiting for refresh ii to make up for the 180mp difference and that is not even counting the rdm healing themselves which the whm would be covered in that 260 mp for curaga iv. Just numbers wise it doesnt make any sense to me especially when most of the Cure potency gear is made for whm I dont see how they can take that to say rdm is anywhere near as proficient at healing as WHM. Simply put WHM is just scared of getting hit is what it sound like to me but isnt there some job ability that turns that damage into mp or hp or something?

In any case I myself prefer the best when it comes to healing. Hell even with sub jobs i prefer something that can heal over just adding more damage. In my eyes if you cant heal u cant survive for very long if at all. In an ideal world everybody would be /dnc, /whm, /rdm and use tier 3 cure/curagas at the max and ONLY the WHM could use anything higher if needed like after an AoE TP move or something but we dont live in that ideal world.

In any case in my opinion the whm shouldn't be single targe healing anybody PERIOD. RDM could step in to single target the paladin where additional cures may be needed as well as tend to keeping the whm on it feet and refreshed. If things worked like that I could deal with healing no problem and still melee a bit. It is also why i RDM/DNC so that i can cycle between cure 3 and 4 as well as curing walts 2 and 3 to eliminate as much downtime from recasts of cures with waltzes that dont get interrupted but to work in a party i must melee to gain some tp. When u add up all 4 of those rdm can heal for 650hp or so in one attack round with C4 + CW3 or over 1000 in 2 attack rounds if u follow up with C3 + CW2. Even with that it still doesn't compare to a WHM being able to cure like almost 2000hp with curaga iv for 260 mp or almost 3000hp in one shot with curaga v for only 380 mp.

I understand what you saying though there is not changing the minds of these stubborn but looking at those numbers I say they are crazy.

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Few pages ago the numbers were run, WHM Cure V is something like 30~40 HP more them a RDM.

Also it's never been about being "the best" as a support. Group leaders will always seek to get a win while using the absolute minimum support possible combined with the maximum amount of firepower possible. It's been this way ever since people figured out you could TP burn just about anything in the game. So a RDM doesn't need to be better then a WHM at healing, it doesn't even need to be in the same league, it only needs to be good enough to get a "win". We all know this, people like to masquerade behind various excuse's and obfuscations, but in all reality they want to be able to either A) use a RDM to main heal their events or B) use RDM as an "in" to get gear for their other jobs. They want to do this by main healing groups, currently not really possible with just Cure IV. It has absolutely nothing to do with giving the job a unique role or making the job "useful" or whatever other excuse for "main healer" you want toss in. It's about getting a guaranteed spot in a group to get gear rather then having to fight it out with other jobs.

RDM needs Haste II and Cure V immediately. At 99 anyone can sub RDM and get Haste Refresh and Cure IV an Convert and BRDs will staart subbing SMN for Garuda's Hastega. Haste II would be neat, should give +30% Haste and increase movement speed like Mazurka/Fleet Wind/Chocobo Jig.

I don't want another tier of Haste to deal with.

I dunno, the part where Bards would start subbing Summoner for Hastega was pretty hilarious to me. Let's see where this goes.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

I don't want another tier of Haste to deal with.

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I'll take self-cast only... That'd be fun!

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Though, he does have a sort of point anything RDM has will be sub-jobable. Didn't SE at one point say with the rise no job will be able to steal another thunder without it being balanced in the favor of main-job. They've not really done that with RDM. Refresh II doesn't count when they made it unneeded.

I also really don't think they'll do justice to Enfeebling Magic so there will be little they can do.

Re-do the enhancing magic formulas to scale properly, add formulas to spells that currently don't make use of magic skills. Bam, problem somewhat corrected. If the job doesn't have native skill it won't be nearly as useful as a proper mage job using it. This still leaves the problem of Scholar subbing all of our goodies, but overhauling and adding formulas to some of the enhancing magic spells is long overdue regardless.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Re-do the enhancing magic formulas to scale properly, add formulas to spells that currently don't make use of magic skills. Bam, problem somewhat corrected. If the job doesn't have native skill it won't be nearly as useful as a proper mage job using it. This still leaves the problem of Scholar subbing all of our goodies, but overhauling and adding formulas to some of the enhancing magic spells is long overdue regardless.

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Yeah, this would work. SCH could be fixed by upping our enhancing to at least A- Personally I'd prefer A or A+ but still. This would put RDM ahead on skill like it was originally.

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Originally Posted by saevel

@Motenten

I apologize if my tone was off, I've been dealing this these people for too long I think.

I was bringing up those points to illustrate that even at its best, WHM is barely ahead of RDM for longevity, otherwise known as brute cure power. Giving RDM Cure V would put it close enough to WHM that it would be determined "good enough" for main healing duties. What many of the pro camp here doesn't realize, or they do and are being dishonest, is that giving RDM Cure V would put it back into the exact same position as it was in 2005/2006. Forever locked into three spells (Haste Cure Refresh). That is a very very bad thing. RDM's don't want to be stuck main healing four to five melee's, its stressful and ultimately its a suck position to be forced into. Of course you have many people coming in that have absolutely zero intentions of playing the job and instead want to use other RDM's to heal them rather then having to find a WHM. Or worse, they play RDM but only as a method to acquire gear for their PUP, BST, DRG, SMN, COR or what have you. They don't care about the job nor actually enjoying the job, but just it's viability / desirability as a loot whore.

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I have to admit I do totally forget about this fact despite i wasnt really around in 2005/2006 but have had the unfortunate displease of being put in that role none the less. I hate it just as much and pretty much wont party as rdm at all less it with a buddy or two. Guess I never really thought about those that feel the same way. I also agree that it is completely possible that people asking for this may not even be playing the job and only asking for it for the reason you listed earlier. I mainly solo any jobs I use and if needed use my fellow and just thought it would be nice to be able to better heal us both. I never really considered those that do party as rdm and are forced to nurse stupid damage dealers that dont use /whm or /dnc. If that is what the end result would be than i guess I would rather cure iv be improved, cap removed, or more of the skill and mnd being used in calculations instead of giving Cure V. The last thing I want to do is continue to pigeon hole my own RDM brethren to help whiny DD. Another alternative would be to maker certain spells stack like regen/refresh/protect/shell/phalanx and other spells on other jobs of course where there are higher tiers of spells that function the same way but I know that will never happen with SE bs logic.

Since Cure IV can be used by any job /WHM, SE have totally missed the point in not giving RDM Cure V - at least by 99 they should be able to use Cure V. It's a joke SE. A bad one.

K, since this seems to be a thread about the whole Cure V and White mage man-handling our spells. We're just going to remove Red Mage the ability to Cure at all, and White Mage the ability to enhance/enfeeble at all. Because clearly, Red mage being able to cure at all is apparently so disastrous to White mage that even Cure 1 could topple it's throne. We're just going to remove it. K? That way, you Red Mages that don't want to cure don't have to cure, and the White Mages well, too be honest who cares about them? Clearly taking our spells is you know, cool. When we ask for one of there's they act like we broke into their home and murdered their goldfish or something completely childish, but it's cool. You guys main heal, we won't. Isn't that what you want? Go ahead main heal your alliance with no support. Oh wait.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/p...jpg?1296494117

Don't like it? Neither do we. By no support. This includes ballads, refresh, that would also include no /rdm refresh. Problem? You guys think you're amazing. You do it solo. Oh wait. Refer to picture above. ^.

Don't worry about us, we won't cure. So /whm would be completely useless. Won't bother needing -na or keeping a party alive. Like I said, we won't bother. In b4 "Oh but in Abyssea, atmas, atmas, atmas, etc." Last I checked VWNM isn't Abyssea. Oh and let's not forget "OH BUT I HAS x REFRESH PER TIC I CAN BE FINE." Good luck with that. ;) You know... with the whole Curing, Buffing, Hasting, Erasing, etc all solo like. We'll give you a week. You have our numbers, we'll be on another job.

However in all fairness, if you guys can't seem to be proper about why Red Mage can't handle Cure V without using ToAU mentality then I don't see why I can't prove otherwise using your same logic.
Let's face it. The majority of the time you're using the very same jobs as your subjob that you're tabooing from getting one spell from the arsenal of your many. I really don't see the problem. If you can't handle it, then White Mage may not be the job for you. Stick to something easier.

It's not so much "Oh he just wants to be a pink mage." No, it's just wanting to be useful in a situation where it's needed. Let's face it. White Mage may be the creme of the crop when it comes to healing, but the player behind the job could be a complete moron. Just because you're mediocre at White mage doesn't mean everyone else is.

I'd like to think that the player base has since wisened up about damage. Apparently not, Red Mage isn't meant to handle AoE curing unless if it's /sch even then it's a pain with the recast. That's one Curaga V every two minutes as opposed to whatever it is you White mages with fast cast can mull out, on top of that the recast on Cure V after accession would have us relying on Cure IV until it's back up again. See where I'm going with this? You would still have your throne, we'd just still be support with whatever else SE decides to toss our way. (Betting it's another enfeebling everything is immune to.) Like 'Breath' or something.

My trust in SE with this whole thing has been basically shattered. Red mage is versatile yeah, sure. However it's up to the player to choose how they want to play the job. Isn't that how it's been always? I've seen RDM/BLU in exp parties, RDM/BLM, RDM/WHM, RDM/WAR, RDM/SCH, RDM/SAM. I've essentially seen it bloody hell all. (Don't ask me why on some of the job combinations.)

Look at the end of the day, do you want everything to be in your less than capable hands? Probably not. Cure IV isn't going to save you from AoE TP Spam followed by -ga spells.

You know what? I'm done with this whole Red mage and White Mage fiasco. You guys do what you want. I'm done. I'm going to go hop on something more versatile and useful then Red Mage at the moment. I don't know probably BRD/RNG.

You kids have a good night.

Okay really, i know this is a case of "beating that dead horse" now. They said theyre looking into adjusting cure potency based on skill/mnd, and while that doesnt speak much for itself, lets just think a moment.

Cure IV for me is about 403HP currently (capped skill) and with potency gear (i have 19%ish currently on rdm) that pushes it close to 500. And my gear has plenty room to grow ofcourse.

Now assuming they made just capped skill and +20 mnd (not unreasonable since gain mnd does that for me now) raises cure power on cure IV to 500, and cure III from 180ish to 260, now adding my 20% potency, that steps that cure IV up to 600HP already, and that cure III is now looking at 312hp, which while not enough is certainly better!

Now lets assume we went that extra mile and got 50% cure potency (we can say this IS in abyssea for this) that same cure IV is now a 750HP cure, that cure III is now a 390HP cure! Granted it took us a lot of gear/atma, but that basically just gave us access to cure V without potency boosts, sure hate will be a bit of a problem, but eventually it ends up as a problem for everyone.

While im not too hopeful for what will come of the skill/mnd adjustments of cure potency (i know whm will benefit from this too) I will say that i will still see it through for what it is, and will cap my skills while i wait

What they really need to fix is cure power scaling with skill. Currently /WHM can cap cure power with skill and MND, that shouldn't be possible. They seriously need to redo how healing magic works for cures.