Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

So he can pretend that he's doing more dmg than the war of course.
Edit: Dallas, you continue to argue a losing side, its like arguing physics of KFK assassination of being false(something I have done for a school project). No matter how much you try and argue your side, the evidence, the physical.mathematical evidence is true, and you can't prove it wrong.

GG, are those numbers including extra attacks from retaliation? And are you assuming that the war and smn have the same accuracy?

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Errr.... I'm not sure what happened, but:
1) Haste Samba can be very useful, especially if you have a BRD/WHM. In comparison, most of Summoner's buffs (including several of the ones named) aren't worth the time it takes to use them.
2) Stoneskin from WHM/SCH caps at 350 without Stoneskin enhancing gear. If I get bored later, I'll go see how high I can pump Titan's up. If anyone else wants to test, the best way would be:
* Earthen Ward with full skill gear
* Send him after a cactaur in Western Altepa.
* Do about 75% damage to the Cactaur (should be 1-2 TP moves) and then heel him if 1000 needles hasn't gone off yet.
* Spam Dia/Dia II on the Cactaur until it uses 1000 Needles.

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Wouldn't venom potions be easier? possibly in conjunction with sublimation?

Retaliation not being countered is leaning it in the Summoner's favor, which is how bad the disparity is. Accuracy is assumed capped (not too hard on the target mob inside abyssea).

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Originally Posted by Khiinroye

GG, are those numbers including extra attacks from retaliation? And are you assuming that the war and smn have the same accuracy?

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Completely ignoring Blood Rage, Retaliation, Meditate, and Sekkanoki + Self-Light. All of which tip the balance severely into WAR's favor even further. I was also assuming a level 95 target with 407 Eva and 92 AGI, which the Summoner would be capping accuracy on.

However, I did totally slip up and forget that Summoners don't have A+ skill in Staff, so the corrected SMN DPS is 163.309 or 275 with Garuda.

While the master is clearly capable of more than the avatar, it's still pointless to argue that SMN can even breathe the same air as basically one of the best DDs in the game with the best gear.

Please, just stop dallas, you're not helping your cause at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Errr.... I'm not sure what happened, but:
1) Haste Samba can be very useful, especially if you have a BRD/WHM. In comparison, most of Summoner's buffs (including several of the ones named) aren't worth the time it takes to use them.
2) Stoneskin from WHM/SCH caps at 350 without Stoneskin enhancing gear. If I get bored later, I'll go see how high I can pump Titan's up. If anyone else wants to test, the best way would be:
* Earthen Ward with full skill gear
* Send him after a cactaur in Western Altepa.
* Do about 75% damage to the Cactaur (should be 1-2 TP moves) and then heel him if 1000 needles hasn't gone off yet.
* Spam Dia/Dia II on the Cactaur until it uses 1000 Needles.

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281 damage absorbed.

Yeah, not the same as Stoneskin, but not the 220 that wiki says.

So Earthen Ward isn't as good as a WHM/SCH's version. At least we get that out of the way. But I still say that SMN's buffs is much better than DNC because it has other buffs besides haste. If given the choice between DNC or SMN, I would probably pick DNC because their haste is JA haste, not spell haste. But working together, SMN still outshines DNC.

Edit: If it helps any at all, my BP:W macro has 438 Summoning Magic associated with it. My BP:R macro is different than BP:W because I don't care much about the 15 seconds on Wards than I do for Rages. Soloing, I don't need to cure my avatar once every 45 seconds, more like once every minute. Now by the looks of it, SMN magic does more than extend the timer of Wards.

What buff does SMN give that can rival 10% Haste? They have literally 0 offensive buffs that stack with DNC aside from Acc+ or that stat+ thing, and their only decent defensive buffs are either outclassed by more mainstream jobs (Aerial Armor and Earthen Ward) or are basically worthless (Eva boost?). Shock spikes?

Serious question at this point, because I'm really just not seeing it.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

What buff does SMN give that can rival 10% Haste? They have literally 0 offensive buffs that stack with DNC aside from Acc+ or that stat+ thing, and their only decent defensive buffs are either outclassed by more mainstream jobs (Aerial Armor and Earthen Ward) or are basically worthless (Eva boost?). Shock spikes?

Serious question at this point, because I'm really just not seeing it.

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Magic Attack Bonus/Magic Defensive Bonus comes to mind. They are the only type of buffs you can get outside of rolls. No other job except a Diffusion BLU can give you anything near it.

I know that there is not a situation where a SMN's buffs would make/break a kill, but we are talking about situations where a SMN can help. DNC can give one type of buff, SMN can adapt to a multitude of buffs. If the mob is evasive enough where the DDs need to have more accuracy, you can give the DDs a Ecliptic Roar and have the DDs eat meat instead of sushi or pizza.

Any buff a SMN can give will increase the kill speed and/or decrease the death speed. DNC too, but DNC's buff only on both the DD's ability to hit the mob and the DNC's ability to hit the mob, a wiff from a DD and they lose the buff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

WAR/SAM with Ukon 90, RCB and Hasso, level 95 target with 420 def 85 VIT, SS/RR/Apoc: 356.831

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I'm just pissing off everyone else by mentioning solo. A realistic scenario is somewhere in between. I needed the numbers to the value of buffs. Thank you.


So, quick calcs:

4x WAR is 1400 damage, 1 WAR buffed by 3 people is 1000 damage. Seems pretty stupid to buff a WAR unless you assume those buffers are also dealing damage. Argument pro-melee SMN, melee DNC, etc.

Splitting:

The WAR is contributing little more to a party, but I will give him credit for bringing 35% haste out of 80%. I'll split 650 (WAR buffs) and 125 (SMN buffs) accordingly.

WAR (35% self, no party haste) : 284 (self) + 0 SMN + 350 unbuffed = 634
SMN (48% self, 15% party) : 122 (WAR) + 75 self + 275 unbuffed = 472
DNC (10% party): 81 (WAR) + 16 (SMN) + ??? = 97 + ???
BRD (up to cap): 167 (WAR) + 34 (SMN) + ??? = 201 + ???

Obviously, SMN would get more contribution if the DNC and BRD meleed as well. Someone needs to melee, because one meleeing WAR isn't enough.