A Ninja without Throwing...

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

I want exposive AoE Shuriken that deal 9999 DMG to all surounding mob to compete with WAR's cleave ***.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

200 Posts ~

That Being said. I'm shocked this has Continued so far. At least we got 1-2 good suggestions, Though none of them Realistically possible.

---

I still believe that adding a ja with sub ja classes instead of throwing wses is in the realm of possibility. The problem would be SE's history with adjustment hit or whiff syndrome when the player base makes a suggestion (my favorite is still the ban of any and all 3rd party tools and gave us a half baked windower when we asked for bot bans lol).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wish12oz

Hi, RNG is useless and is already out of a job, it is the absolute worst DD in the game, everything else does way more damage then it does, and its obnoxious when rngs stand far away and pull hate, so most intelligent people won't even bring RNGs to anything.

And if you bothered to read the thread, you would of noticed repeatedly how shurikens need to be completely broken, like 300+++ damage to even be half useful. 120-130 is jackishtnothing and would do nothing. Can you please read the effing thread before you post garbage?



Same thing to you too, learn game mechanics and read the thread, your uninformed opinions serve no purpose in a debate about game mechanics and math. Fixing ranged damage mechanics so they're useful at max level would break the game. The only possible solution is letting haste affect ranged delay, and that would not fix throwing by itself.

---

I only came back to this thread to respond to this, but you really make obnoxious and stupid posts. How's that NIN treating ya now that you don't have to RDM/DRK refresh and stun at Tiamat anymore? lol

Actually I really don't know you, but from what I realize, you're a dense person that strives to make himself feel better by dumbing down everyone's ideas. Also one that feels NIN will be playing at an optimal pace (BRD, Haste, DNC) 100% of the time, which just isn't possible.

Also, a well played RNG with the right weapon can and will crap all over a NIN's dmg within Abyssea and outside of it. Peace. This will be the last post ever addressing anything you say, I'd rather listen to everyone else's post (including GG) instead of your babble.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shoko

I only came back to this thread to respond to this, but you really make obnoxious and stupid posts. How's that NIN treating ya now that you don't have to RDM/DRK refresh and stun at Tiamat anymore? lol

---

If you know of my comments about Tiamat, maybe you should look for the math I posted about fighting Tiamat with PO, and why no RDM would have enough MP to do it the way they wanted. And yes, the game is always more fun when when you don't have to play with people who cannot keep up with what the new best strategies are, and how to use them effectively.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shoko

Actually I really don't know you, but from what I realize, you're a dense person that strives to make himself feel better by dumbing down everyone's ideas. Also one that feels NIN will be playing at an optimal pace (BRD, Haste, DNC) 100% of the time, which just isn't possible.

---

This is entirely wrong, you do not need anything but gear, haste spell and marches to hit the attack delay reduction cap.
Keep in mind that any good bard will have at least a +2 march horn and +2 hands for march+1, and if they don't, through minimal effort you can acquire both of them for the bard if it's someone you hang out with a lot.

BRD with +2 Instrument and +1 March from Hands (+3 Total):
Advancing is 10.9375%
Victory is 14.0625%
We'll say 11 and 14 to make it easy.

Should that bard have a Ghorn, or after the update should they add a +3 march instrument, which they will eventually, just look at how every other song is getting a +3 instrument. (except ballad)

BRD with +3 Instrument and +1 March from Hands (+4 Total):
Advancing is 12.5%
Victory is 15.625%
We'll say 12 and 16 to make it easy.

Base dual wield of Ninja at Lvl 90 is 35%.
Haste spell is 15%
Gear haste caps at 25% (and is very very very easy to reach)
gear + spell + both marches+3
25 + 15 + 11 + 14 = 65% haste

gear + spell + both marches+4
25 + 15 + 12 + 16 = 68% haste

so 65% haste for march+3, 68% haste for march+4

If we assume you have normal everyday ninja gear along with base dual wield.
Base DW 35%
Suppanomimi 5%
AF3+2 head 5%
af1 body 5%
This brings DW from 35% to 50%

Adding 50% DW to 65% haste bring your delay reduction to 82.5%, 80% is the cap

So as you can see, with normal gear ninja easily has access to, and a bard with march+3, which is also easy to get, you can easily exceed the delay reduction cap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shoko

Also, a well played RNG with the right weapon can and will crap all over a NIN's dmg within Abyssea and outside of it. Peace. This will be the last post ever addressing anything you say, I'd rather listen to everyone else's post (including GG) instead of your babble.

---

This is also incorrect, here's why:

The only RNG I know has a gandiva, so we'll be using the gandiva for comparison, and assuming an ACC rate of 100% because I don't feel like applying 95% acc to everything, because that will just tip the scales in the NIN's favor even more.

Kannagi+kamome delay is (210+180) 390.
Apply 80% delay reduction to that, and you get 78.
Lets look at attacking now, 2 attacks per 78 delay, 54% of the time you get an extra attack, so we can safely say, you get 3 attacks per round. (apoc 15% TA, eponas 3% TA (18% TA) eponas 3% DA, brutal 5% DA, /war 10% DA (18% DA) so we do 18+18+18 = 54.
So ninja comes out to 3 attacks per 78 delay time.

Gandiva+arrow delay is (490+90) 580.
For the sake of this arguement we're going to assume the rng is standing far away, and only shooting, so he's going to have a 580 delay between attacks.

-------math from here down is incorrect, see below post for correction-------
Now, lets say we have a 50% rapid shot rate (which is way more then you have) So 50% of the time the bow delay is reduced to 0. so we can take away half the 490, to make it 245, 245+90 = 335.
Now lets apply all the snapshot availible to the 245, Lets say you have a 5% body, 3% belt and 5% hat...... (mirke, impulse, af3+2 hat, and Im not even sure the hat is 5%) and velocity shot is 10%.
5+3+5+10 = 23% snapshot
245 x .77 = 188.65
So we'll say your new delay is 188+90 for 278.
So RNG gets 1 attack for every 278 delay.

278 divided by 78 is 3.5641etc
we'll say 3.5
So basically, ninja gets 3.5 attack rounds per RNG attack round under the best possible circumstances for RNG.
At 3 hits/round NIN gets (3.5x3) 10.5 attacks per a RNG's 1 attack.
Looking at just melee attacks, 1 shot from a RNG needs to do as much as 10.5 attacks from a ninja, for the RNG to be on even ground.


Blade: Hi and Jishnu's basically do the same amount of damage, so we'll leave WS damage comparisons out of this. But we will talk about WS frequency.
A good RNG will almost have a 4 hit inside abyssea, so we'll say they have a 4 hit.
My NIN gets just under 5tp/hit, and 11 from WSing. Which means I need 22.25 hits between WS's, at 3 hits/round this means I need 7.5 rounds of attacks between WS's.

So which happens faster? 3 rounds from a RNG, or 7.5 rounds from a NIN?
If we look at the thread higher up, it says we get 3.5 rounds on nin per round on RNG, so in those 3 rounds for RNG to get 100 TP, a NIN gets 10.5 rounds.
What this means is a NIN actually gets MORE WS's then a RNG in the same amount of time.

How much more?
well, if NIN gets 10.5 rounds and needs 7.5 every time a RNG gets 100TP, that means in the time it takes a RNG to get 200TP, NIN gets 21 rounds, which is -almost- enough to have gained 300tp. If the RNG wasnt mashing on his ranged attack macro as fast as possible and getting every shot off as soon as possible, the NIN would actually reach the 22.5 rounds needed to get 300 tp.
So basically, for every 2 WS's the RNG gets, the NIN gets 3.

What does all this mean?
It means every RNG WS needs to do 1.5x as much damage as the NINs, and Every attack the RNG makes needs to equal 10.5 attacks by the NIN for the RNG to stay even in damage with the NIN, and this is assuming everything is in the RNGs favor, 50% rapid shot, a 4 hit, max snapshot, and very little fumbling between attacks.

So, while actually playing the game is it even remotely realistic for a RNG to keep up?
Absolutely not.
But feel free to provide your own indept analysis to counter me, I welcome the chance to debate this with you.

Corrections:
So when I made the above post I was unsure of how much rapid shot activates, and there was no information anywhere when I looked. Because of this, I just gave it a 50% activation rate, because I knew NIN would still come out way ahead.

After some digging I found the activation rate is 10% for the job trait, and you gain 5% from merits, and there's some pants you can wear, entois trousers, and that's it. Everything else with rapid shot on it is not worth using because it's in the same slots as snapshot. If we assume the pants are 5% (no one seems to know what it is, but 5% is more then generous) this would bring rapid shot up to 20% activation rate, instead of the aforementioned 50%.

It was also pointed out to me I made a slight mistake when I did the snapshot calculating. I need to take the snapshot from 490, then add it to what the new rapid shot delay total is, and divide by 2 to get the cumulative effect of both.

(490*0.8)+(490*0.77)=769 /2 = 384
392 + 377 = 769 /2 = 384

Add arrow delay to this new bow delay with snapshot/rapid shot factored in, and you get (384+90) 474.

474 divided by 78 is 6.076923.
So ninja actually get 6 attack rounds per RNG attack round, or 18 attacks per 1 attack by a RNG.

Recalculating WS frequency means RNG still needs 3 attacks to reach 100tp, and during those 3 attacks NIN gets 18 attack rounds in this time, or 54 attacks. In my last post we figured out NIN needs 22.5 attacks per WS (assuming 4 tp/hit, 11tp return from WS)
Which means for every 1 WS RNG gets, NIN gets 2.4 WS's, this is WAY MORE then originally proposed.

New conclusion now that I know the real rapid shot values:
RNG WS's need to do 2.4x more damage then a NINs, and every shot they make needs to equal 18 attacks by a ninja for the RNG to KEEP UP, not do more damage, but to simply keep up. This is assuming the best possible scenario for the RNG, 4 hit, max rapid shot, max snapshot and no fumbling between attacks.

I made a new post instead of editing the old one because I made a mistake in it, and it seemed wrong to simply change it like nothing happened, because I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong.
But my last comments still stand.
Is it realistic to think a RNG can come anywhere close to a NIN's damage?
Absolutely not.
And I look forward to your in-depth analysis of why I am wrong and debating this issue with you, since you said:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shoko

a well played RNG with the right weapon can and will crap all over a NIN's dmg

---

A good way to make shuriken on par with returning throwing weapons might be to add a recycle effect that only works for shuriken. They have done this for ninjutsu already in the form of Ninja Tool Expertise, so it should be possible to do. Since there are only a few types of shuriken in the game, each can be modified to have this new characteristic.
This way, shuriken can still be expensive, but they will last longer. They can adjust the recycle % effect to preserve balance. Also, depending on the effect they'd decide to go with, only a stack or two would be all that is needed for an outing.
This alone won't fix the problem, but it'll make using shuriken actually worthwhile.

"Blade: Hi and Jishnu's basically do the same amount of damage"

Gonna go ahead and say that's wrong. We have two Kannagi's in our LS and a Gandiva, no way in hell their His do the same damage as his Jishnu's on most anything. Then there's the fact that our Taru God loves to self-light damn near everything for massive damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charismatic

"Blade: Hi and Jishnu's basically do the same amount of damage"

Gonna go ahead and say that's wrong. We have two Kannagi's in our LS and a Gandiva, no way in hell their His do the same damage as his Jishnu's on most anything. Then there's the fact that our Taru God loves to self-light damn near everything for massive damage.

---

Can you provide parses or are you just loleyeballingit?
Because if you don't know, let me tell you a secret, loleyeballingit is never even close to accurate, parse or do the math manually or go away.

But the point still stands that-
RNG WS's need to do 2.4x more damage then a NINs, and every shot they make needs to equal 18 attacks by a ninja for the RNG to KEEP UP, not do more damage, but to simply keep up. This is assuming the best possible scenario for the RNG, 4 hit, max rapid shot, max snapshot and no fumbling between attacks.

Does your RNGs Jinshnus do 2.4x as much as the Hi's? And do each of his attacks hit for as much as 18 of the NINs?
I think not, but better luck next time, and if they do, you're welcome to provide parses, or the damage calculations to prove it.

Here's some links you might find useful while proving me right:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ca...hysical_Damage
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/PDIF
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Base_Damage
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ca...n_Skill_Damage

Small edit: gonna provide some numbers to better illustrate my point about the damage RNG needs to do to keep up.

Lets say the NIN's Blade: Hi's only average 2500, which is obnoxiously low (my average is 3700~ inside abyssea) @2500 damage, Jishnus needs to do 6000 average to keep pace. For my average, the RNG would need to average 8880 damage per WS......

If the ninja only hits for 50, crits for 100, 75% crit rate, this puts you average per hit @ 87, so a RNGs ranged attacks need to do 1575 to keep up. I'm using really, really small numbers here for the NIN, and you can see how absurd it is to even think a RNG could keep up. My NIN is usually around 130 damage for normal hits and 270 crits, which puts my melee average at 235, which means the RNGs melee attacks would need to do 4230 damage each to keep up.

Who said anything about 2.4x damage or anything like that? You said Hi and Jishnu's do about the same damage... Jishnu's Radiance for my friend DOES average about 6kish on most stuff. I just did a dom ops party with him in Altepa tonight and he would one shot dolls 90% of the time. From 6-7k damn near every time. An ISL meant 4 dead dolls within like 30 seconds because sekkanoki, jishnu's, jishnu's, barrage, EES, jishnu's... and the best part is he's not even done with his WS build. I don't care about whatever else you're talking about but Blade: Hi does not do about the same damage as Jishnu's Radiance.

That's just not something you're going to get from Blade: Hi.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charismatic

Who said anything about 2.4x damage or anything like that? You said Hi and Jishnu's do about the same damage... Jishnu's Radiance for my friend DOES average about 6kish on most stuff. I just did a dom ops party with him in Altepa tonight and he would one shot dolls 90% of the time. From 6-7k damn near every time. An ISL meant 4 dead dolls within like 30 seconds because sekkanoki, jishnu's, jishnu's, barrage, EES, jishnu's... and the best part is he's not even done with his WS build. I don't care about whatever else you're talking about but Blade: Hi does not do about the same damage as Jishnu's Radiance.

That's just not something you're going to get from Blade: Hi.

---

I could do that with Hi on lame weak dolls too~

And math says RNG WS's need to do 2.4x more damage then NIN's and ranged attacks need to do 18x more damage then a ninjas attack for the RNG to do as much total damage as a NIN.

Here, I spent 5 min out in altep fighting dolls, I did all of 4 WS's, here they are.
A mithkabob and berserk were my only buffs aside from atma/cruor buffs.
The last weak WS I did with the mob at like 10%, it was only 1 of the 3 hits Hi usually gets, and was to show what a single hit of Hi can do on those weak dolls.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2.../weakdolls.jpg

With a stalwarts or minuet or chaos roll, any sort of attack buff really, probably even Dia2, would easily push me over into the 6-7k range. Anything else you would like to not prove?

With zerk and food you match the damage he does /SAM, yeah... that proved me wrong in that Blade: Hi is as powerful as Jishnu's Radiance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charismatic

With zerk and food you match the damage he does /SAM, yeah... that proved me wrong in that Blade: Hi is as powerful as Jishnu's Radiance.

---

Smart RNGs always sub SAM?
I fail to see how using the job abilities you always have is cheating. I also doubt he was doing 6-7k every time, completely unbuffed, but then, you could always go take your own SS's and prove it. Go for it, I would love to see it.
And what kind of gimp would be out exping or whatever doing dominion ops without at least cheap food?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wish12oz

And what kind of gimp would be out exping or whatever doing dominion ops without at least cheap food?

---

Oh, i dunno... probably the kind that oneshots them without it >.>
I'm pretty sure if when you engage an enemy, hit your WS macro... then the enemy dies, without using any food, that using food is irrelevant.

And I never said anything was cheating, stop putting words in my mouth. But yes, you have clearly convinced me that Blade: Hi is as strong as Jishnu's Radiance when the NIN is buffed and the RNG is not. Obviously this puts the weaponskills on equal footing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charismatic

Oh, i dunno... probably the kind that oneshots them without it >.>
I'm pretty sure if when you engage an enemy, hit your WS macro... then the enemy dies, without using any food, that using food is irrelevant.

---

Because you never do anything besides WS. So Only WSing matters.
And you never provided any evidence aside from 'cause i said so' to prove Jishnus does more then 200 damage to those dolls, at least I went out and killed a few of them and took SS's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charismatic

And I never said anything was cheating, stop putting words in my mouth. But yes, you have clearly convinced me that Blade: Hi is as strong as Jishnu's Radiance when the NIN is buffed and the RNG is not. Obviously this puts the weaponskills on equal footing.

---

Cause I'm sure your RNG friend wasn't using hasso, or velocity shot, or cruor buffs, or atmas, or whatever else, so that berserk from my SJ was such a huge buff right? And I'm sorry, I wasn't aware we were dealing with the poor crowd where people cant afford cheap food, and weren't using it while exping. When did not using food while exping become acceptable? When did exping without 2 BRDs or BRD+COR or 2BRDs and a COR become acceptable for that matter......


But anyway~
The point I was making originally was that the WS damage is close enough that a damage comparison between the two is not needed. By what you have said we've established that in 3 WS's without effort or high spikes in damage from TA's or DA's +allhitcrits on my part, I averaged between 0% and 15% lower WS damage then you said your friend was doing with jishnus. And all you did was loleyeballit, which means its probably a much lower average then you think.
And this is exactly the point I was making.
A RNG doing 15% more WS damage than a NIN is not going to save it. The RNG's WS's need to do 2.4x more damage then the NINs for it to matter, because the NIN does 2.4x more WS's then the RNG.
To explain this clearly to you, unless your friend is doing 14k WS's, my NIN would do more overall WS damage then he does after fighting stuff for more then 10 min, and overall damage over time is what matters. Not to mention the fact that in the time it takes for a perfectly geared RNG to shoot once, a NIN gets 18 hits in.....

Obviously the only real answer is that MNK is better than both NIN and RNG. 7k WS? Pshawwww.

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...59426e9204.jpg

Also, not using Red Curry Buns fulltime (or at least Bison Steak on trash mobs) when they're 40k/stack (6k/3hr food for steak) and you (read: your friend) have an Empyrean Weapon is just insulting to the bow.

I don't see how not using food when it's not doing much of anything for you is an insult to anything. If you're one shotting without food, how is it an insult not to use it?
You guys make no sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charismatic

I don't see how not using food when it's not doing much of anything for you is an insult to anything. If you're one shotting without food....

---

He most likely was not 1 shotting them with WS's, and you do stuff other then WS....
Like shoot arrows to gain TP, or barrage, or.... whateverelseRNGdoes.....

It's nice of you to not argue that RNG does more damage then NIN anymore too, glad to see you can handle math.

why not give ninja throwing weapons that stack to 99 and give status effects to target? Or can do elemental damage even better a ninja can use elemental spells combined with a throwing weapon to do massive damage burst. another option is improve sange and overhaul it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by axlzero

why not give ninja throwing weapons that stack to 99 and give status effects to target? Or can do elemental damage even better a ninja can use elemental spells combined with a throwing weapon to do massive damage burst. another option is improve sange and overhaul it

---

I'm assuming you didn't read the thread, because well, I wouldnt read it either.
And the answer is simply because even if you did that, it would still not be useful enough to actually use.
You have to make the damage so broken it's not even realistic for it to be done to fix the problems with throwing at lvl 90, and we're not even at the new cap yet. The simple truth is that unless they let throwing be affected by haste, it will never be worth using. If you think this is wrong, here's the math for why throwing is so terrible, propose ideas to make it useful when you understand this:

Shuriken have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay.
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.
Throwing comes no where near either of these 2 things, and never will, it's impossible unless they make haste affect ranged attacks.

Also: we have slow and blind, the rest isn't really really useful, and if new enfeebling spells are added they should go to RDM.

I'm actually on board with Akujima on this issue. I simply never understand why you would ignore a tool available to you, regardless of the job. I'll be clear, my ninja is 49 and it will remain there until my last job leveled, something about loathing the job almost as much as I loathe genocidal maniacs, but I digress. The point is, my throwing is well beyond the 49 ninja cap, my ninjitsu is at the 49 ninja cap, I think my parry is just above the 49 ninja cap, katana is at the 49 cap, evasion was already capped. I actively used throwing, the wheel, etc. to keep those skills up. Why? Were they particularily useful? No. Was it required? Only by me. Do they come in handy on occasion? Hell yes. Same is true on all of my other jobs.

See, all skill is absolutely useless... until you need it, and then it's too late to get it. So it is advisable to use what you have every chance you get to keep it up, so that it is already there when you really need it. That's why so many people complain about parry, guard and shield (if you aren't a paladin), because even if you try to use them, they aren't there. How many times have you heard your Blm complain that their enfeebling or whatever is gimpped when they can't land a specific debuff? Like I said, you need it when you need it. You especially need it in this day and age of trying to !! proc off a sub-job skill when low-manning ___.

To be sure, not all skills are gonna be all that useful, ex. rdm has a ranged attack skill, but the only time a rdm would realisticly use it is to pull in an area where magic would get aggroed, and you don't need to hit to claim with ranged, the other possibility being if they chance upon Ixion. Some abilities are only gotten through merits, and you may not have enough to get everything, again rdm spells come to mind. For the most part however there is a reason to get and use skills.

Ranged attack, since that's what we are discussing here... OK, I'll admit, none of my ranged attack is at capped (I'll be leveling ranger soon, so I expect that to change), and my throwing is higher than my marksmanship. My 90 thief can use all 3 ranged options, but only throwing sees much use. Does it do alot? no. It hits quite a bit tho', gives me a good chunk of TP when it does, and since I love my jinx discus it has a handy added effect, cursing my enemy-handy in this day and age of "to hell with hate control" since it makes it take longer to chase down the hate-happy mages when they pull the mob outta the DD/tank pit. To be sure, I could use X-bow status bolts to effect as well, but I'm gonna skill throwing on my thief and dancer, I'll get marksmanship doing my ranger since I'm more likely to hit and ammo is not free.

Now, Sange... well here's where you are gonna run into a debate. At least prior to Aby a ninja's best friend was his shadows, look up sange and see what it does to your shadows. Maybe we don't care anymore, but it's awfully hard to shake an 8-year reflexive mindset; sue me, but I want my shadows. Second, I'm pretty sure Sange only works with consumed throwing weaps, and at upper levels those cost a fortune... when you can find any. Lastly, sange is a trade off with other things you need to spend merits to get, and you need to decide what kind of ninja you are as to where you spend those, so it's your choice.

That being said, Sange is certainly NOT useless. Shuriken can do alot of damage, pick a fight with a yag ninja, you aren't getting hit for 0 there. Your returnable weaps generally don't do as much damage as shuriken, and I don't believe they work with Sange. They still do something. If you have ready access to a steady supply of shuriken I might seriously consider it. But even without Sange I'd be tossing those things when I had the chance in my activity cycle, they can do alot of damage... in skilled hands.

Am I the only one who's ever watched themself on screen start a ranged attack, whack the mob with a melee attack, then finish using the ranged attack? (I've done the same thing casting, too). Seems using ranged damage is not automatically forfeiting doing melee damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glamdring

I'm actually on board with Akujima on this issue. I simply never understand why you would ignore a tool available to you, regardless of the job.

---

You ignore it because it's useless.
Do RDMs with Slow2 cast slow1? No, unless you're really not intelligent. Throwing is in the same boat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glamdring

I'll be clear, my ninja is 49. I actively used throwing, the wheel, etc. to keep those skills up. Why? Were they particularily useful? No. Was it required? Only by me. Do they come in handy on occasion? Hell yes. Same is true on all of my other jobs.

---

Actually, at this level, and previous levels, and for a few more upcoming levels, throwing is good, in fact it's so good, it's better then anything else you could possibly do. It doesn't become bad until you and other melees, gain access to more haste, dual wield, and better damage katanas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glamdring

I talked for 3 paragraphs about how I keep my skills capped

---

Good for you, that has nothing to do with why throwing is useless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glamdring

Now, Sange... well here's where you are gonna run into a debate. At least prior to Aby a ninja's best friend was his shadows, look up sange and see what it does to your shadows. Maybe we don't care anymore, but it's awfully hard to shake an 8-year reflexive mindset; sue me, but I want my shadows. Second, I'm pretty sure Sange only works with consumed throwing weaps, and at upper levels those cost a fortune... when you can find any. Lastly, sange is a trade off with other things you need to spend merits to get, and you need to decide what kind of ninja you are as to where you spend those, so it's your choice.

That being said, Sange is certainly NOT useless. Shuriken can do alot of damage, pick a fight with a yag ninja, you aren't getting hit for 0 there. Your returnable weaps generally don't do as much damage as shuriken, and I don't believe they work with Sange. They still do something.

---

We went over this before, apparently you missed it. Using sange takes your shadows, and takes away time from doing melee damage, by using the job ability, and recasting shadows. These actions make you miss between 3 and 8 attack rounds worth of TP and damage, and guess what! Sange doesn't do more damage or gain more tp then 3 attack rounds, and that's the low end of what you miss out on, thus making it useless.

This is why you should learn how stuff works before you try and talk about it, so you don't say incorrect information and get called on it. It's earlier in the thread if you want to go look for it "Mr I don't even have ninja at 75 and have no idea what I am talking about."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glamdring

Am I the only one who's ever watched themself on screen start a ranged attack, whack the mob with a melee attack, then finish using the ranged attack? (I've done the same thing casting, too). Seems using ranged damage is not automatically forfeiting doing melee damage.

---

Game animations do not indicate how the game works. For instance right here, doing ranged attacks actually stops you from being able to do melee attacks, so does using JA's and WS's and casting anything. Learn game mechanics before you decide what is good or bad and try to pass stuff off as useful.

And the last thing we need on these forums is more bad, incorrect information about game mechanics,
YOU CAN NOT MAKE NEW MELEE ATTACKS WHILE THROWING.
What you saw was animations from attacks that already occurred.

While throwing isn't for the elitist mainstream players, I know that others including myself could find use for throwing attacks that also offer enfeeblement that we do not have access to in the role of NIN. It could a new item similar to Angon and have the chance to inflict the target with Amnesia, Demi, Gravity and Terror depending on resist.

I'm also hoping for an adjustment/update to Sange, it really needs to allow for Crits to be included in the damage calculation.

I'd also like to see a Shurikenjutsu that cast an actual barrage of shuriken at the mob.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bulrogg

While throwing isn't for the elitist mainstream players, I know that others including myself could find use for throwing attacks that also offer enfeeblement that we do not have access to in the role of NIN. It could a new item similar to Angon and have the chance to inflict the target with Amnesia, Demi, Gravity and Terror depending on resist.

---

The problem here is that if the update to throwing is not useful, no one will use it except for the really bad players, or Naruto RPers. And if it's not useful to most of the people who play the job, it's a waste of SE's time and they should of been working on something else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bulrogg

I'm also hoping for an adjustment/update to Sange, it really needs to allow for Crits to be included in the damage calculation.

---

Abilities that do damage need to do more damage then meleeing or they're not worth doing. Even if Sange was all crit hits, and you had shurikens that cost 1 gil and had 300 base damage, Sange wouldn't be worth using.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bulrogg

I'd also like to see a Shurikenjutsu that cast an actual barrage of shuriken at the mob.

---

Believe it!

But I have to become the ultimate ninja

If you play your job right, You're an elitist. Heard it here first. BELIEVE IT!

Why was this thread bumped :(?

On topic, Read back to any of my posts that offer suggestions, They're better than all of yours! (NYEH NYEH!) and even they would be border-line breaking the game. While I would accept a change to throwing that some how made it viable without nerfing Dual Wield or haste, The problem is, that level of Throwing buff would require literally either a complete overhaul of throwing, or adding Shuriken with DMG somewhere around 999 and a Delay of 1 that give 50tp a throw.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Why was this thread bumped :(?

---

I don't think the thread ever died. There's always been at least one or so post a day since the thread was started.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

If you play your job right, You're an elitist. Heard it here first. BELIEVE IT!

---

No. But if you persistently go out of your way to bash people with childish Naruto insults, because their feelings about how a job should be developed in a role-playing game interferes with your bandwagon job list, then yes, it is a symptom of elitism.

Wish12oz, GG and other like minded people never gave a crap about NIN before it got a major boost in DMG capabilities. The simple fact is that elitists jump ship to the next bandwagon job the moment it becomes available. The only reason they're in here, is because they don't want NIN to be changed, effectively forcing them to abandon ship and cling to another job that is more "uber".

Wanna know why my threads are gigantic? Because the topics strike the very core of the reader, forcing them to either give up or put up a struggle, to save their most cherished beliefs.

Both sides hold their beliefs dear, as you do. Is it so wrong to want a job not to be nerfed so you can continue to enjoy it?

Criticizing one side of the argument because their beliefs are different, accusing them of bandwagon'ing (I'm pretty sure 12oz has been a NIN for a long while) Is far worse than them sticking up for what they believe and their math.

And an "Elitist" doesn't job to one job to the other when it comes into light. "Elitists" I consider a compliment, because it perfectly describes someone who has geared and played their job to their best ability.

Why people think its an insult is beyond me.

Because I totally haven't had NIN75 for yeeeeears. Anyone who plays their job the most effective way in a group setting where performance impacts other people must be a bandwagontard. That makes so much sense.

Your threads are gigantic because you are unbelievably dense and never actually read what anyone else writes, replying with buzzword banter, youtube links, and +1's to any posts longer than 10 words that agree with you, even if you didn't read or understand those either.

Stay consistent for once and stick to your crappy PvP thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Your threads are gigantic because you are unbelievably dense and never actually read what anyone else writes, replying with buzzword banter, youtube links, and +1's to any posts longer than 10 words that agree with you, even if you didn't read or understand those either.

Stay consistent for once and stick to your crappy PvP thread.

---

I'm still waiting for you to make a thread that get's any thumbs up. Let alone have the guts to make one.

Making a Useless thread has nothing to do with the content of a persons posts or the legitimacy of their argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akujima

Wish12oz, GG and other like minded people never gave a crap about NIN before it got a major boost in DMG capabilities. The simple fact is that elitists jump ship to the next bandwagon job the moment it becomes available. The only reason they're in here, is because they don't want NIN to be changed, effectively forcing them to abandon ship and cling to another job that is more "uber".

---

I started leveling ninja in 2004, and was 75 in 2005, how about you?

But you're right, the moment ninja became a subpar useless POS job, I couldn't play it anymore because it was a waste of space and that goes against what I consider fun in this game. So in an effort to prevent it from becoming junk again, I will post about how terrible every idea people propose here that is bad so that at least if SE implements one of them, I will know I at least have put in effort to keep my favorite job from becoming crap again.

The last thing I want is an update like we got with yonin and innin. 2 abilities that at the time were so completely useless they made me scream with rage. Ininn is still completely useless too, and yonin is only good inside abyssea because the -acc doesnt hurt you. But the real problem was that SE thought they fixed ninja and made it awasome when they added these abilities. We DO NOT need a repeat of this, with SE adding some BS new throwing JA and shiurikens and thinking ninja is suddenly better then it use to be again. But theres a very small minority of players who just don't get this, probably because you weren't even around when ninja was good, and didn't have to sit and suffer through the years it was terrible.

Now go away with your tired rhetoric that doesn't apply to the discussion, you've contributed nothing worthwhile to this or any other discussion involving the job.

I'd also like to see a really huge returnable shuriken for NIN only with a nice mix of eva+ and attk/crit+ stats.

I have capped Sange are you telling me this is a bad thing?

I had Sange capped back when the level cap was 75. But I removed it to merit other things. I like Sange and found it useful at times but in the realm of kill first ask questions later Abyssea the lack of new affordable shurikens puts throwing in the back seat for most events. Moving past abyssea (90+) I think Sange and Throwing can be adjusted/updated to make it useful again. It would also be nice if the usage of Sange would calculate Crits into the damage output.

If you want to RP, Dungeons and Dragons is that way ->

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akujima

I'm still waiting for you to make a thread that get's any thumbs up. Let alone have the guts to make one.

---

You've apparently not noticed that it's the people AGAINST you that are getting all the thumbs up in the thread.

Basically, the throwing mechanic sucks and they're never going to change it. It's slow and laggy so you can't spam the action without a constant stream of error messages.

I've always wondered why a Ranger's primary auto-attack function isn't ranged...

Please don't make me waste more money on a job that's already a gil funnel (Not really a sink since it funnels from one person to another...). Yes, I know, don't play a job if I don't want to spend the gil. Not that I won't pay the gil, I'm lazy. I haven't recouped any gil making methods since I've come back to the game. And I leveled NIN during the days it was the alpha tank in a static for the specific reason that I wouldn't have to tank.

You want to RP with your little shurikens? More damn power to you. Leave me the hell out of it.

Now, let me have my Utsusemi clones come out for X amount of time like that one Campaign NPC does, then we'll talk about adding RP elements to NIN.