The importance of job points

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

24/7

10chars

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27/7 or gtfo

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Nothing is required. You can stand around a starter zone wacking level one mobs for all eternity because you don't actually NEED to level up or gear or anything. Saying people don't need them is meaningless. If you don't need them then you shouldn't care how I get them.

This all boils down to people wanting things. You want job points to remain the same. Other people want to max out their characters without having to farm (as much) JP to do it.If they were to make JP far easier to obtain, the only downside for you would be that you couldn't come on here and call people lazy for not having them..

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I would never call anyone lazy for not having job points. I would call them lazy for demanding that they get to have them without doing anything. What the Hell does it matter how much somebody wants something? That is such an infuriating sense of entitlement to say "I want this! I don't want to put in any effort! Gimme!" You sound like a 5 year old.

I don't want to go around beating on mobs for nothing in return. I want to beat mobs for progression. When I get job points, I want it to mean something. I want it to mean that I put effort into obtaining something I am proud of. What the Hell is the point of even playing a video game if everything is just given to you effortlessly?

Again, you keep dodging the question. The topic here is on the importance of job points. As in, are job points becoming so important that you must have them to function in the game? What is the consequence of not having capped job points? The only consequence any of you guys can come up with is "I don't have capped job points!"

The consequence of not going through the effort to obtain a mythic weapon is that you don't have a mythic weapon.
The consequence of not having Delve wins is that you don't have access to certain useful pieces of gear.
The consequence of not getting to Sea is that you can't reforge artifact and Dynamis armor.

The consequence of ALL this is the same: if you don't actually put in the effort to obtain a goal, you don't get the benefits of that goal. You said you had a high paying job and several homes. I'd like those things. Can I have them while I just sit at home all day goofing off? It shouldn't make any difference to you if you still have them. And going by your logic... I deserve those things and it's unfair if I don't have them.

What kind of game do you want? Something where you just log on and get everything because you don't want to put in any effort? Why can't these people just do the 6000 other things that require minimal effort and can be soloed? Honest to God, you sound like a child bickering because mommy gave big brother a fancy new toy.

And you know what? I actually think there IS room for improvement in the job points system. I'm not actually totally with Protey on this. I'd like to see something like the +75% XP bonus Expertise Ring purchasable with login points, but for Capacity Points. I'd like to see them cut down the crazy evasion on those VT/IT mobs in the Gates zones so that you don't need a BRD/COR/GEO to roll (no matter how much accuracy I stack on my level 119 Monk I still can't get these things to check as anything but high evasion without adding on sushi... and even with sushi they're still high evasion if I don't stack accuracy gear). I'd actually love to see Double Capacity Points be a scheduled thing, say 7 to 10 days a month, instead of a random occurrence.

But here's the thing about making things easier..... they're still too hard for some people who lack patience. If you cut down the number of CP per job point to 10,000, you KNOW that people would demand it to cut down to 5,000 or 1,000. If you made double CP permanent, that would become the new normal and people would want more. People still complain about levelling being too slow even though XP and limit points are thrown at us left and right.

What I don't think is that job points are anything more than a "nice thing to have" like a mythic weapon or Tinhaspa or Jugo Kukri or Emet Harness. You don't get any of these things unless you put in some effort.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

I think the core issue that is dividing people here seems to be the disparity between "casual easy content / box-ticking content" and "achievement-based advanced content."

Currently there are a lot more things that fall into the former category. Just about everything outside Seekers areas can now be solo'd with ilvl gear and trusts, including former mega boss HNM etc. and formerly difficult missions. Almost all mobs outside SoA are too weak or incredibly easy prey. 99.9% of NMs outside SoA present no challenge at all for a solo player with ilvl gear and trusts. RME can be pretty much solo'd with a few stages requiring groups (HMP etc.) but the vast majority is easy and soloable. WKR, skirmish and most delve are also not overly difficult.

There is actually very little content that falls into the second category, the "devotion-based advanced content." I would argue that attaining high levels of Job-Points is intended to, and succeeds in, providing an advanced long-term building process for people who want something they can achieve and feel proud of. Not so much now with the current Job-Points maximum brackets, but in the future when Su2 Su3 Su4 gear arrive and the brackets are expanded and require mindboggling amounts of CAP to max out. Those future expansions to the Job Points group brackets, could pose a serious and advanced long-term challenge for those that want it.

And I can only see this as a very good thing. Because if you like super easy short-term content, you've got just about everything in the world that falls into that category lol. Don't complain because other people who have long wanted an advanced long-term character development process, and a sense of pride in their job accomplishments, have now got that option.

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I thought that's what 119 Afterglow RMEs were for. Job Points isn't your answer to being a special snowflake looking down upon the unwashed masses. Eventually SE will stop adding to the system, and/or up the CP rate (much to Protey's chagrin) and even half-assers will cap out just like most people have with merits. If you want to stand out you need something more skill based or something that requires a dedicated group. You need gated content, not a mindless grind.

Nothing in this game is skill based. Stop acting like it is. All new content becomes difficult at first, then someone develops a popular strategy, and everybody copies it, and suddenly it's easy.

I don't look down on anyone because of the job points I've accumulated. I look with pride upon myself because it's something I achieved with effort because SE gave me the option to achieve something. Unlike Camiie, who seems to believe that this is somehow wrong, and that "this thing exists" = "I am entitled to this thing".

I have asked over and over again, but the question is endlessly dodged. If job points are a mindless grind you do not like, why do you just not hunt for job points? It seems the answer is "because then there is something I don't have!!!! That's not right!"

Funny.... a year ago we were all fine not having any of these things.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

I thought that's what 119 Afterglow RMEs were for. Job Points isn't your answer to being a special snowflake looking down upon the unwashed masses. Eventually SE will stop adding to the system, and/or up the CP rate (much to Protey's chagrin) and even half-assers will cap out just like most people have with merits. If you want to stand out you need something more skill based or something that requires a dedicated group. You need gated content, not a mindless grind.

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Yes Afterglow is indeed another advanced long-term project, for most people.

However. You can BUY afterglow with enough gil. And while farming gil does take effort, it is also luck based, you might have a LS which spams high value events and you get lucky on the drops all the time. You might win the mogbonanza and get rich. Many people have.

The point is that you can't buy maxed Job Points. There is no luck involved. It is all effort. Luck only plays a small part in Job Points, relating to the practical issues such as "having a LS that lets you play your main job to Job-point runs." My own LS prefers that I go on Whm, as I have played Whm for them since 2004 and am considered a "safe pair of hands" ie. reliable on Whm. This means in practical terms that I had to go solo my Job-points on my main jobs (Pup and War) because I don't want to tell my LS that they need another Whm when they are relying on me to be their Whm.

And afterglow makes your weapon "complete" while it does not in any way change your actual character. So afterglow is not the same category as Job Points at all. The former can be bought with gil, partly through luck, and does not actually involve your character's personal development.

For many years I and many others have asked for "specialist classes" which are advanced versions of your main job, where you can refine your chosen job qualities to higher levels and to match your unique individual play-style. Merit-points were a little bit too limited and cookie-cutter to actually offer a seriously customised advanced job. Job points offer a very good potential path to creating the advanced job / specialist class.

As for "eventually SE will stop adding to the system" well they kept adding to merit-points for almost a decade, even if it was minor alterations, the point is that merit-points were still an active system for many years, despite merits being very limited in many respects. And so why should we not expect SE to keep adding to Job-points for many years too? When job-points (unlike merits) really does offer the potential to be an 'open-door' type of customisable character development, with greater potential choice and customisability.

And I never said it was skill-based, unless you are farming CAP solely from IT++ mobs, in which case your personal game skills will enable the party to maintain momentum. The option of soloing CAP on EP mobs does not require skill, merely persistence, and allows people on low-pop servers with empty linkshells, to obtain CAP at a slower pace. But it still requires devotion to your job. You can't solo millions of EP mobs for CAP unless you care about advancing your job.

I will ignore the "you look down on other people" because it is not true, and it is also a remarkably cheap shot.

My point, which you missed, was that FFXI in 2015 is largely "box ticking", and that maxing your Job-points represents a "box that can't just be ticked." Less so now, but in later stages I would expect maxing your job points to be a great undertaking, and only something you could do if you really cared about your job and were prepared to work on it for long periods of time.

Get new character, solo it to lvl 30 with trusts ; tick box.
Get lvl 99 and capped merits in Aby, in short time ; tick box.
Get AF set in a few hours, upgrade in a few weeks to 119 ; tick box.
Get Alluvion 119 weaps and augment, in a few weeks ; tick box.
Solo ZM COP TOAU WOTG without breaking a sweat ; tick box.
Get free stuff from login / goblin box / special freeby events ; tick box.
Obtain quadrillions of Capacity Points to customise your character development further ; ti....omg a box I can't just tick. Cry wail weep. :mad:

I was going to add my own two gil but Stompa has pretty much stated my feelings on this -- and much more thoroughly at that.

I will say that I'm having a hard time understanding why some people that play rpg games like this seem to have such a problem with grind heavy character progression -- something that's practically always been an integral part of them. Hell, I'm the type of player that likes to see near unobtainable forms of progression that take years of effort to even come close to achieving (AC1 and 2 probably came closest to achieving that, as well as EQ with the AA grind.) It's not because I want to "look down on the unwashed masses" or because I want to be a "special snowflake" (which is a ridiculous insult imo, since I see nothing wrong with games giving us a way to differentiate ourselves; in fact, I greatly prefer it), it's because I love being able to progress my character at all times. I never want to be "finished" because those incremental additions to my character keep me invested and engaged. The more I work at it, the more I feel my character is my own. I mean, just look at mmorpgs with relatively quick level and gear caps and without any form of alternate advancement. What happens when people "finish" their characters there? They either roll an alt and do it all over again or they quit the game until the next expansion. I remember seeing this happen all the time on the WoW forums. People with nothing to do to better their characters, who had exhausted all content, and were left fiddling around with their garrionsville. That's not the kind of thing I'd personally like to see in FFXI.

If job points really aren't necessary for any of the previous or even current content, then what's the harm of having them as one of the long term sources of progression? It's that very kind of prospect that has kept my interest in this game -- even during the period I wasn't able to play at all -- and it will likely keep me playing for the long term. A feat most others in the genre have failed at in recent years. This kind of game should always be about the journey, not the destination.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

But you wouldn't have done it without the job points. Because getting something good for your monk is fun and wacking monsters endlessly is not.

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So what, if you want something you should have to earn it. Period.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Nothing is required. You can stand around a starter zone wacking level one mobs for all eternity because you don't actually NEED to level up or gear or anything. Saying people don't need them is meaningless. If you don't need them then you shouldn't care how I get them.

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Wrong. Just because something isn't needed doesn't mean one shouldn't care about it. Also, it isn't about how you get them, it's about how everyone gets them.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

The only difference is that you can wack monsters until they shut down the servers if that's what you like, regardless of the existence of job points or any changes to them. There are no consequences for you either way. Even if they make every monster give 1,000,000 JP, The monsters remain and you are free to kill them as much as you want. Or if you wanted, you could just take off some gear to make them harder again.

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Here you go making up garbage again. It's not about being able to kill monsters, it's about achieving something. So yes there are consequences. If JP are just handed out, it ceases to be an accomplishment.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

People who don't want to kill the same monsters for ever and a day don't have that freedom. They have to give up on maximizing their character if they don't like it.

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Tough. People who don't want to put in effort to obtain something don't deserve it. They can do without. If your real life situation doesn't allow you to have time, then tough, deal without it. If your real life didn't allow you enough play time to go cap exp from 1-99 on multiple jobs would you suggest that they get it just by buying the game?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

If they were to make JP far easier to obtain, the only downside for you would be that you couldn't come on here and call people lazy for not having them.

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Wrong. You are taking away worthiness of the game. That would be yet another achievement that was just handed out instead of earned. And please don't state garbage like your worthiness is not the same as other's worthiness. It's still making an accomplishment not an accomplishment.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

And if that cheesecake suddenly cost $10,000 a slice would that make it taste any better? No. The only purpose it would serve for you would be keeping other people from having cake.

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What does raising the price of the cheesecake have to do with what we were arguing about? Nothing. We were talking about your statement of not needing something means you shouldn't be concerned with it is false. Since that was lost on you I will give another example: I don't need my appendix, but I would be very concerned whether it bursts or not. Also, just to humor your non-relevant remark, raising the price of the cheesecake does not keep others from having the cake, they just have to (like everyone else) spend more time to be able to get it. If they don't have the time, tough, just because something exists doesn't mean you are entitled to it, nor should you get it easily.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Next time your parents / significant other / boss ask you for something, tell them "You don't need that" and see how that works out for you.

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It works out just fine, because like we are trying to do here, we explain why it isn't needed. Then the person (except you for some reason) realizes it is a want, not a need. Also, none of them play this game so how is what you are saying even relevant? That's right, it isn't.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

If most of you complaining went and spent time JPing instead of complaing you would probably have more JPs. Time is money, stop wasting it.

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I'm beginning to wonder if he (Mrkillface aka FrankReynolds) even plays the game anymore. Looking at FFXIAH he has 2 JP and hasn't bought or sold anything from AH since September.

edit: added specifically who I was referring to.

Why are you people equating "We would like CP easier to obtain" to mean "We want CP for doing nothing"

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Originally Posted by Tidis

Why are you people equating "We would like CP easier to obtain" to mean "We want CP for doing nothing"

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why? because of comments like this:

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

If they were to make JP far easier to obtain, the only downside for you would be that you couldn't come on here and call people lazy for not having them.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

And you know what? I actually think there IS room for improvement in the job points system. I'm not actually totally with Protey on this. I'd like to see something like the +75% XP bonus Expertise Ring purchasable with login points, but for Capacity Points.

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Actually, I did say before that CP should have the same way of obtaining as EXP. For instance I suggested that there should be a crafted ring as well for CP just like the Resolution Ring.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

I would never call anyone lazy for not having job points. I would call them lazy for demanding that they get to have them without doing anything. What the Hell does it matter how much somebody wants something? That is such an infuriating sense of entitlement to say "I want this! I don't want to put in any effort! Gimme!" You sound like a 5 year old.

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Gross exaggeration. No one said or demanded that.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

I don't want to go around beating on mobs for nothing in return. I want to beat mobs for progression. When I get job points, I want it to mean something. I want it to mean that I put effort into obtaining something I am proud of. What the Hell is the point of even playing a video game if everything is just given to you effortlessly?

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Another gross exaggeration. No one asked for it to be given to them. And let's be honest here. Killing weak mobs is easy. The only achievement you are unlocking is longer log in time.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

Again, you keep dodging the question. The topic here is on the importance of job points. As in, are job points becoming so important that you must have them to function in the game? What is the consequence of not having capped job points? The only consequence any of you guys can come up with is "I don't have capped job points!".

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If you're not sure what job points do, go look it up. I think we all know that they aren't going to continue adding more powerful items and stats to the job point system without increasing the difficulty of content. That would be incredibly dumb. You can stop pretending that they aren't. We also know that being a requirement from a technical standpoint has nothing to do with being able to beat the content. It's about actually getting into groups to do the content in the first place. Just because you can beat <XXX> on a butt naked white mage doesn't mean anyone is going to let you come.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

The consequence of not going through the effort to obtain a mythic weapon is that you don't have a mythic weapon.
The consequence of not having Delve wins is that you don't have access to certain useful pieces of gear.
The consequence of not getting to Sea is that you can't reforge artifact and Dynamis armor.

The consequence of ALL this is the same: if you don't actually put in the effort to obtain a goal, you don't get the benefits of that goal.

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If you look back, you'll notice that they decreased the requirements for all those events because people were discouraged by them. Games that aren't fun don't make money. Insane difficulty and / or time sinks only hold the interest of a very small demographic. For many people, everything about FFXI fits that definition.

In all honesty, they should be rewarding stuff like that with aesthetic items that are functionally the same, but with unique appearances and / or titles instead. It doesn't make sense to reward people who like a challenge with things that make everything less challenging.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

You said you had a high paying job and several homes. I'd like those things. Can I have them while I just sit at home all day goofing off? It shouldn't make any difference to you if you still have them. And going by your logic... I deserve those things and it's unfair if I don't have them.

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Oddly enough, that's exactly how I got them. I learned how to manage servers, websites, networks etc. while playing video games late at night. Goofing off.

There are base requirements in life that society deems necessary just like there are in the game. You don't need a car or a house or nice clothes to survive. You can go all "naked and afraid" and sleep in a hut made of pine needles. But nobody is going to want to hang out with you. That's where job points are headed. No one wants to play with the guy who is way behind in performance. Even if he is good enough to beat the content. Because, people don't want a group that can beat the content. They want a group that will beat the content and fast.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

What kind of game do you want? Something where you just log on and get everything because you don't want to put in any effort?

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Yes, because that's the only choice. There is absolutely no way that they could ever just lessen the requirements. That would be impossible. They have to either keep them exactly the same or remove the requirements entirely. there is no other choice. There can be no middle ground. If they even gave one more CAP per kill, the whole game would implode. /SMH

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

Why can't these people just do the 6000 other things that require minimal effort and can be soloed? Honest to God, you sound like a child bickering because mommy gave big brother a fancy new toy.

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Why can't you?

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

And you know what? I actually think there IS room for improvement in the job points system. I'm not actually totally with Protey on this. I'd like to see something like the +75% XP bonus Expertise Ring purchasable with login points, but for Capacity Points. I'd like to see them cut down the crazy evasion on those VT/IT mobs in the Gates zones so that you don't need a BRD/COR/GEO to roll (no matter how much accuracy I stack on my level 119 Monk I still can't get these things to check as anything but high evasion without adding on sushi... and even with sushi they're still high evasion if I don't stack accuracy gear). I'd actually love to see Double Capacity Points be a scheduled thing, say 7 to 10 days a month, instead of a random occurrence.

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I agree, but I'd rather see them become what they said they were going to be. A bonus that would accrue just by regularly playing the job. Not something that you had to specifically go do for hours and hours. You keep complaining about people wanting something for nothing, but in this case that's exactly what it was supposed to be. These weren't advertised as a challenge like a relic or something. They were advertised as something that would just happen as natural progression from playing the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

But here's the thing about making things easier..... they're still too hard for some people who lack patience.

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Maybe, but I think there's a happy middle ground somewhere and this ain't it.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

What I don't think is that job points are anything more than a "nice thing to have" like a mythic weapon or Tinhaspa or Jugo Kukri or Emet Harness.

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It literally took me 10 minutes to get my tinhaspa.

Please see the countless threads / posts / discussions / websites complaining about certain gear / stats being "Required" by group leaders even though they aren't actually necessary to win the fight. It's about efficiency. Not just winning.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

I have asked over and over again, but the question is endlessly dodged. If job points are a mindless grind you do not like, why do you just not hunt for job points? It seems the answer is "because then there is something I don't have!!!! That's not right!"

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Because having job points makes new content easier. Being able to do content more easily makes you more desirable to groups and other players. Being desirable gets you invited to events, parties, link shells etc. . All of these things make the game more enjoyable. Sometimes you have to do things you don't like to get things that you do like. The problem is when the part that you don't like outweighs the part you do. You can't make all the people happy all the time, but they can certainly do better than this.

And please can we stop ignoring that JP are way harder to get on some jobs than others... and ironically those are the jobs that the devs are "fixing" with job points rather than just fixing the jobs...

Honestly there are so many straw men in here it's a wonder anyone can breathe. No one is suggesting we all just should log in and be handed max job points -

What people are saying is this system was sold as a tiny little bonus you got for playing your fave jobs. Except, instead they are adding what should be core class abilities or class fixes to this horrendous grind. FFXI is already the most grindy game ever - we really didn't need this as a new required grind.

And yeah yeah before people say "they won't be required" that's nonsense and we all know it. Christ we could all beat voidwatch without the minor bonuses for atmacites but group leaders still shouted for people that had maxed out certain ones.

Honestly if it was just an extra 5 accuracy or something I wouldn't worry about it, but the difference between a BST pet with 2% extra haste or one with 30% haste is pretty huge. These aren't minor differences, especially for a job that needs all the help it can get.

I don't work somewhere where I can grind job points all day and I have other hobbies I want to engage in after work. I came back to FFXI because I could have fun playing it casually. If it's going to turn into PLEASE GRIND 500 HOURS KILLING MOBS MINDLESSLY BEFORE YOU CAN JOIN CONTENT... ughhh no thanks.

Anyway we should all be concerned about it because whenever devs put a system this grindy in place it is not because they are planning to add a lot of new content. But hey if you think it's worth paying a 15+ sub per month to kill the same mob over and over again with no variation or even actual content...

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And please can we stop ignoring that JP are way harder to get on some jobs than others

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Personally, when I shouted to make a Woh Gates CP party (which I did a lot during the event, and more to fill missing spots), I just shout (job) (anything) and just go with whatever we get. The party fills up very fast and we're out there within 5-10 minutes. Any time we ever do poorly (which is rare) it's because the players are undergeared or underskilled. I've had DRKs, multiple PUPs, no WHM, no BRD, whatever. I've also had RUNs and even a PLD (though the PLD was sub nin and dual wielding Burtgang and Excalibur). I never had a BST ask to join. The most common job, was, of course, THF, but there was also a lot of BLU.

We just go with what we get, and usually get at least get 300k CP/hr during the event. The only time it was lower is when people keep AFKing or, like I said, the players are not good, not because of the jobs. It was also a good source of sparks and accolades, and a lot of Sacred Kindred Seals. I made pretty good gil just off the sparks.

Granted, as a SMN, I am fulfilling the roles we're missing, but a lot of players can do that. If we're missing heals, I just play healer. We always have buffs (Hastega II/etc), so we're in decent shape there. Dancers can heal too (or anyone can sub dancer), we had PUPs bringing white mage automatons, lots of jobs can provide other useful buffs, etc. We had people subbing Corsair just to do Corsair's Roll, the same can be done with mage jobs for haste, hunter's roll for accuracy if you need it (sushi is fine), whatever.

If you want to get CP, just make a party. The public shout parties might deny you, but that's just because the person making the party wants a specific setup. You can still make sure you get at least one person who can heal or buff, and there's multiple viable camps. I just finished pretty much all my job point categories on Summoner within 3 days during the event, missing only one category that I don't really care about (and already have enough stored to max the two new ones).

And yeah, getting CP can kinda take a while, but it just depends on how much you want and how much time you want to spend. Like I said, I was getting 300k/hr (375k+ with corsair) with random party setups, which is around 10 job points per hour. That's about 6 hours to max one category. They definitely need to add more ways to get CP (new alluvion skirmish maybe) but Incursion and delve are pretty good too (my GEO has all gifts just off of doing delve). The system is a little grindy and takes a while, but you can finish it all up for a job (or the categories you care about) pretty quickly if you just push it during a CP event.

Today I saw somebody leveling in Woh gates or Sih gates or some adoulin shit. The character names were Hyuran and Miqoten. It was at that point I realized that this game will be here forever.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

If you're not sure what job points do, go look it up. I think we all know that they aren't going to continue adding more powerful items and stats to the job point system without increasing the difficulty of content. That would be incredibly dumb. You can stop pretending that they aren't. We also know that being a requirement from a technical standpoint has nothing to do with being able to beat the content. It's about actually getting into groups to do the content in the first place. Just because you can beat <XXX> on a butt naked white mage doesn't mean anyone is going to let you come.

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Then you won't be able to do the content. Make yourself better to the point where you are accepted. Or, /gasp, make your own party.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

If you look back, you'll notice that they decreased the requirements for all those events because people were discouraged by them. Games that aren't fun don't make money. Insane difficulty and / or time sinks only hold the interest of a very small demographic. For many people, everything about FFXI fits that definition.

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Precisely why people are trying to prevent people like you from making it less grindy. If you want a less grindy game, go play something else, there are many out there. Stop trying to make FFXI less like FFXI.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

There are base requirements in life that society deems necessary just like there are in the game. You don't need a car or a house or nice clothes to survive. You can go all "naked and afraid" and sleep in a hut made of pine needles. But nobody is going to want to hang out with you. That's where job points are headed. No one wants to play with the guy who is way behind in performance. Even if he is good enough to beat the content. Because, people don't want a group that can beat the content. They want a group that will beat the content and fast.

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Oh, you are psychic now. You've already foreseen all this new content that requires a certain level of JPs and that people won't get invited. Oh and mysteriously you are somehow unable to make your own parties.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Yes, because that's the only choice. There is absolutely no way that they could ever just lessen the requirements. That would be impossible. They have to either keep them exactly the same or remove the requirements entirely. there is no other choice. There can be no middle ground. If they even gave one more CAP per kill, the whole game would implode. /SMH

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They should go the other way, give less CP per kill. And do away with all these double CP campaigns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I agree, but I'd rather see them become what they said they were going to be. A bonus that would accrue just by regularly playing the job. Not something that you had to specifically go do for hours and hours. You keep complaining about people wanting something for nothing, but in this case that's exactly what it was supposed to be. These weren't advertised as a challenge like a relic or something. They were advertised as something that would just happen as natural progression from playing the jobs.

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And one can still get them just by natural progression from playing the jobs. You don't have to go get them. Your argument is void.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Please see the countless threads / posts / discussions / websites complaining about certain gear / stats being "Required" by group leaders even though they aren't actually necessary to win the fight. It's about efficiency. Not just winning.

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So go make your own party. Or are you incapable of making things happen for yourself?

This happened a lot in my parties:

Quote:

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Player: hi can I come drg?
Crevox: sure, of course
Player: wow ok ty

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Quote:

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Player: hi i have brd, whm, thf
Crevox: bring whichever you want
Player: can i come drk?
Crevox: sure, if that's what you want to bring, that's fine
Player: ok ty

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What you people fail to realize is that the game is a journey, not an end point. When you make things easier to get, you make it so people don't want to play. Why? because there is nothing to do. That is why you have people only logging on for new content, which is rare. By having long term goals with grindy requirements, there is something to do. If some of you have it your way we'll be capped out on JPs/Gifts in no time and then what, SE will have to come out with new content. Now I'm pretty sure everyone does want new content, but without grindy requirements the new content will be beaten in short order and people will have nothing to do again. So SE has to come out with even more new content. However, that is not something that can be done in a short amount of time. Also, by coming out with new content over and over again in a relatively short time we have things like what happened with Skirmish gear. I know I was a bit peaved with spending 90 million gil on using stones then having to do it all over again with the +1 gear a short time later. So stop advocating for making things less grindy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Protey

What you people fail to realize is that the game is a journey, not an end point. When you make things easier to get, you make it so people don't want to play. Why? because there is nothing to do. That is why you have people only logging on for new content, which is rare. By having long term goals with grindy requirements, there is something to do. If some of you have it your way we'll be capped out on JPs/Gifts in no time and then what, SE will have to come out with new content. Now I'm pretty sure everyone does want new content, but without grindy requirements the new content will be beaten in short order and people will have nothing to do again. So SE has to come out with even more new content. However, that is not something that can be done in a short amount of time. Also, by coming out with new content over and over again in a relatively short time we have things like what happened with Skirmish gear. I know I was a bit peaved with spending 90 million gil on using stones then having to do it all over again with the +1 gear a short time later. So stop advocating for making things less grindy.

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I can vouch for the problem of making things too easy and how that results in people quitting the game. The LS I am on has always been your typical "new player LS" and we have always picked up any new player we find, and helped them with the stuff they need, things that other more snobby LS refer to in the derogatory term "no needy noobs." Our LS has been around forever and has always been happy to take them and their needyness lol.

One thing I noticed in the years 2010~2014, and more noticeably after SoA arrived, was that we had a steady flow of new players joining all the time, and they leeched aby sandsweepers from lvl 30~99 plus capped merits, all in short time, and all while wearing their New-Adventurer pyjamas, often not using a single /ja, /ma or /ws for those whole 69 levels plus hundreds of merits.

What happened was that they ended up standing in Adoulin on lvl 99 (capped merits) barely a fortnight after joining the game, and within a month they were saying stuff like "omg not more delve / WKR / skirmish" and "I'm so bored" and "I quit." The LS saw many of these new players join the game and reach endgame stage within a few weeks, and then quit the game in boredom a few weeks later.

And the difference between new players arriving on the LS in 2004~2009, they took ages to get lvl 75 and they dreamed of one day having capped merits. And they didn't quit. Those players stayed on for years, not weeks. And made lots of friends on the journey too.

And because the levelling process had given these new players the "journey" mindset which you mentioned, this made them more enthusiastic about other journeys in FFXI such as crafting/missions/quests/RME etc. This is very different to the new players our LS saw leeching Aby in their pyjamas and then saying how bored they were and quitting after a fortnight. So I think you are right, when the journey is taken away, people end up standing around at the destination and just kicking dust.

Also if the double CAP events are going to be really really frequent, like more frequent than normal capacity times, they should just call those double-events "normal CAP" events and other times "half CAP" events lol. Next week, a special rare event, half capacity points! :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Protey

Make yourself better to the point where you are accepted.

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Why do you think people are asking for lower requirements on the JP system? They want to be better...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Protey

Precisely why people are trying to prevent people like you from making it less grindy. If you want a less grindy game, go play something else, there are many out there. Stop trying to make FFXI less like FFXI.

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I'll do what I want. I've been playing this game since the JP release and I'll keep trying to make it better for me and other people like me until they shut it down whether you like it or not. Deal with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Protey

Oh, you are psychic now. You've already foreseen all this new content that requires a certain level of JPs and that people won't get invited.

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No, I just possess adequate mental faculties to recognize a trend that hasn't changed in over ten years of FFXI.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Protey

Oh and mysteriously you are somehow unable to make your own parties.

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Yes. People who don't have experience because they don't get invites have a much harder time actually leading groups. Leading a bunch of failed runs adn / or constantly asking someone else to lead your party quickly leads to people not joining your groups.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Protey

And one can still get them just by natural progression from playing the jobs. You don't have to go get them. Your argument is void.

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You don't have to get them either. You can waste time killing bunnies all day without the JP system. Your argument is void.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Protey

So go make your own party. Or are you incapable of making things happen for yourself?

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I'm very capable. I'm just not a dick to people who aren't.

Quote:

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No, I just possess adequate mental faculties to recognize a trend that hasn't changed in over ten years of FFXI.

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Like the trend of merit point abilities being required? Nobody ever really complained about that, so there's no reason to complain about it now. The only basis for the complining i see currently is "But SE said JP/gifts were going to be a minor thing!" - and this is really the only valid reason to complain, because they said one thing and maybe (i dont really agree) did another. If they never said that, there would be zero basis for the complaint, as it is extremely obvious that job points are a character progression/customization system, just as merit points were, so its not fair to complain about things that are common to both now when they didn't complain in the merit point days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Like the trend of merit point abilities being required? Nobody ever really complained about that, so there's no reason to complain about it now. The only basis for the complining i see currently is "But SE said JP/gifts were going to be a minor thing!" - and this is really the only valid reason to complain, because they said one thing and maybe (i dont really agree) did another. If they never said that, there would be zero basis for the complaint, as it is extremely obvious that job points are a character progression/customization system, just as merit points were, so its not fair to complain about things that are common to both now when they didn't complain in the merit point days.

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Really? People never complained about merits? Seriously? So you're telling me that if I go to any FFXI fan site that there aren't going to be hundreds of old threads full of people complaining about how only four jobs ever get invited to merit parties and what a pain in the ass it was to get merits on just about anything but red mage, samurai, dragoon or bard? I just imagined myself going bard and red mage to merit parties for like 8 years? That didn't happen?

Because I could have sworn that people were complaining about that stuff a lot, for years. And that was with a system where you could actually earn the points for all your jobs on whatever job that people wanted you to be on.

Or did you mean that there weren't thousands of posts about how XXXX job is required to have some crappy skill merited that they really don't like using? Or how they have to sacrifice skill on the job they like because everyone expects them to put the merits in some other job they hate? Because I'm pretty sure that there has been plenty of complaining about the merit system.

I'm pretty sure that I've seen you posting in some of those very same threads quite a bit...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Really? People never complained about merits? Seriously? So you're telling me that if I go to any FFXI fan site that there aren't going to be hundreds of old threads full of people complaining about how only four jobs ever get invited to merit parties and what a pain in the ass it was to get merits on just about anything but red mage, samurai, dragoon or bard? I just imagined myself going bard and red mage to merit parties for like 8 years? That didn't happen?

Because I could have sworn that people were complaining about that stuff a lot, for years. And that was with a system where you could actually earn the points for all your jobs on whatever job that people wanted you to be on.

Or did you mean that there weren't thousands of posts about how XXXX job is required to have some crappy skill merited that they really don't like using? Or how they have to sacrifice skill on the job they like because everyone expects them to put the merits in some other job they hate? Because I'm pretty sure that there has been plenty of complaining about the merit system.

I'm pretty sure that I've seen you posting in some of those very same threads quite a bit...

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There was 1 period in time when people preferred X jobs for BIRD parties. Merits existed outside this time frame and smart people knew of many different merit spots than just birds to satisfy their merit hunger. Just because you didn't know about them doesn't mean they didn't exist. I knew of several party setups that existed in things like trolls, you have blm burn parties on puddings etc... Hell, I knew many many MANY people not using ideal setups for bird parties and still doing merits at the same rate.

Anyways, more fallacies, again, to support your ignorant claims/stances. Sadly I'm starting to get confused a bit on your stance because you seem to just be arguing for the sake or arguing now. Fact is realistic time frames have been given and many people with 100s of JPs have given their 2 cents on how easy they are to obtain already in all actuality. So your points are pretty moot there, unless you are talking about wanting to gain JPs solo and just as fast across the board on all jobs, I would have to remind you this is an MMO where usually you play with other people. Hard idea right?

Again, JPs have not been needed, are not needed, and as far as our knowledge will still not be needed to clear content. Unless magically the alluvion skirmish coming out for yorcia requires only blms with new tier spells, which I'm pretty confident to say will not be required, which was really the basis of the most recent arguments was not having access to these new tier spells. That being said, there has also been SIGNIFICANT amount of time with SEVERAL double CP campaigns to save up enough jps etc. You should shoot SE an email and ask them to lvl your jobs to 99 for choosing to do something like dyna with the time available to play the game. This seems to be the direction of your fallacies. Maybe while you are at it you can get a free relic or a mythic. Maybe you tell them you spend so much time farming alex you haven't been able to farm dyna, so you shouldn't have to work for a relic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

There was 1 period in time when people preferred X jobs for BIRD parties. Merits existed outside this time frame and smart people knew of many different merit spots than just birds to satisfy their merit hunger. Just because you didn't know about them doesn't mean they didn't exist. I knew of several party setups that existed in things like trolls, you have blm burn parties on puddings etc... Hell, I knew many many MANY people not using ideal setups for bird parties and still doing merits at the same rate.

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Heh... So I guess by saying that you knew how to merit better than me, that's supposed to somehow erase all those complaints from all those people over all those years huh? Just by saying that, it somehow means that they were all really satisfied and happy? Interesting logic... Terrible, but interesting.

For what it's worth, I had WHM, BRD, SAM, MNK, RDM, NIN and WAR with capped merits and all relevant HNM / endgame gear with the exception of relics on my main character and a second character (The one I play now since I lost my original JP Character) with RDM, BLM, WHM, BLU, DNC, THF, MNK, BST and NIN and most end game gear and merits as well back at 75 cap so you can save the tough talk.

But, skill level or knowledge is irrelevant. The fact is that thousands of people did have a problem with the merit system. Myself included. Just because I was good at it doesn't mean that I liked it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Anyways, more fallacies, again, to support your ignorant claims/stances.

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I don't think that word means what you think it means. See implying that me not being good at XXXX activity somehow means that thousands of people collectively lied about not liking that activity for for years for no reason is a logical fallacy. Me sucking at the game doesn't have anything to do with other peoples enjoyment of the merit system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Sadly I'm starting to get confused a bit on your stance because you seem to just be arguing for the sake or arguing now. Fact is realistic time frames have been given and many people with 100s of JPs have given their 2 cents on how easy they are to obtain already in all actuality.

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I could say that "getting rich as a plus size model in a panda bear costume for Superbowl beer commercials is easy! I did it and you can too!". Hell, it might even actually be easy. But that doesn't mean that people are going to run out, buy a panda suit and quit their day jobs. Telling people something is easy doesn't make them hate it any less. Again, look up the meaning of fallacy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

So your points are pretty moot there, unless you are talking about wanting to gain JPs solo and just as fast across the board on all jobs, I would have to remind you this is an MMO where usually you play with other people. Hard idea right?

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Again. Telling people to just go get some friends isn't going to make it happen. You seem to have a really difficult time differentiating between what you think people should do and what people actually want / can do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Again, JPs have not been needed, are not needed, and as far as our knowledge will still not be needed to clear content. Unless magically the alluvion skirmish coming out for yorcia requires only blms with new tier spells, which I'm pretty confident to say will not be required, which was really the basis of the most recent arguments was not having access to these new tier spells.

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Right.... So in the future, they will just keep making us more powerful with job points, but they will keep the content the same level. That way everything will be super easy. Okay. That sounds plausible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

That being said, there has also been SIGNIFICANT amount of time with SEVERAL double CP campaigns to save up enough jps etc. You should shoot SE an email and ask them to lvl your jobs to 99 for choosing to do something like dyna with the time available to play the game. This seems to be the direction of your fallacies. Maybe while you are at it you can get a free relic or a mythic. Maybe you tell them you spend so much time farming alex you haven't been able to farm dyna, so you shouldn't have to work for a relic.

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Or maybe I just tell them that I don't like the job point system.

Because all that other nonsense that you just said... wait for it... logical fallacies. Me not wanting to farm JP doesn't mean that you work harder than me or that I want everything for free or that I am lazy. It means exactly what I said. I don't like the JP system.

fal·la·cy
ˈfaləsē/
noun
noun: fallacy; plural noun: fallacies

a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound argument.
"the notion that the camera never lies is a fallacy"
synonyms: misconception, misbelief, delusion, mistaken impression, error, misapprehension, misinterpretation, misconstruction, mistake; More
untruth, inconsistency, myth
"the fallacy that the sun moves round the earth"
Logic
a failure in reasoning that renders an argument invalid.
faulty reasoning; misleading or unsound argument.
"the potential for fallacy which lies behind the notion of self-esteem"




Do you even read what you right? You just compared 11 to the superbowl? You also stated you need friends to apparently exp? Is this RL? This guy for real?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Do you even read what you right? You just compared 11 to the superbowl?

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You get to learn all sorts of new words today. Congratulations!

"hy·per·bo·le
hīˈpərbəlē/Submit
noun
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally."

A good way to think of a hyperbole’s usage is to imagine it going through a realm of impossibility to reach possibility. (J. Ritter) As an example we can look at an exaggeration such as, “The class felt like it was six thousand hours long.” In reality, no class is six thousand hours long, but through the context the reader can understand that the speaker is telling them that the class felt extremely long. Through that same example, the theory that a hyperbole is inserting a lie on a set of truths is very easily understandable as well. The six thousand hours exaggeration is a lie that was entered into the context, which was otherwise true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

You also stated you need friends to apparently exp? Is this RL? This guy for real?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

I would have to remind you this is an MMO where usually you play with other people. Hard idea right?

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Bad analogies are bad.

At what point does a discussion about a game mechanic turn people to do little besides insult one another? It's been pretty predominant in this thread of late, and it's gone from a debate to a series of personal attacks. Chill, and remember that it's a game.

As for the JP system, to an extent I like what it is. Is it time-consuming? Sure. It's way improved from initial, though, where most of your choices were 2-400 CP/kill at Outer Ra'Kaznar and parties at 1-2 Woh Gates camps, maybe a shot at Dho. Now there are the subgates, where with a chain and a CP mantle (and there's no excuse if you don't do Incursion now, there's a crafted one) you can see up to 6-700 in a chain, and more with a CP ring, which is available via easily-farmed sparks. Four zones, and I'm fairly certain there are decent camps in them. I've only farmed in Dho and Woh subgates myself because usually one or the other is open, so I can't say 100%, but I'm pretty sure there are camps in the other two.

One improvement I think that would make the system nicer is to either make the CP Bonus Gifts a little more potent (say 10% each one, versus 5%, which really adds to the incentive to farm at least a few JP to get some early-on CP Gifts) or else make them a bit more frequent. A lot of gifts have a 5-JP gap between them, though there are some larger gaps where there is possibility for more. Likely these are actually set aside for future gifts like JAs, JTs, and spells, but we never know until they are actually filled. I think improving the rate at which players can... well, improve the rate of CP gaining would likely help those who have little time but a desire to get some JP without hindering those who choose to take more time doing JP and get a lot more for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Because all that other nonsense that you just said... wait for it... logical fallacies. Me not wanting to farm JP doesn't mean that you work harder than me or that I want everything for free or that I am lazy. It means exactly what I said. I don't like the JP system.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

TLDR; there are thousands of reason why people quit and yours is probably pretty low on that list.

I used to play like 8+ hours a day back when the game came out (been playing since JP release). The game was tedious and annoying, but I really didn't have much else to do when I got off work at midnight and I lived at my moms house. Now I don't even get to play a lot of days. On the other hand, I used to live at my moms house, work late and get paid crap. Now I have a hot wife, a huge house (and a couple vacation homes) and an @ $500k income. I also have a crapload more games to play now. FFXI has gotten a lot better, or I would have cancelled it a long time ago. So, no. Saying that the game was better back then and that is why people quit is not warranted.

As I'm sure you already know, 99% of the stuff that was in the game back then is still in the game now. If you / they really liked the game the way it was, you'd still be playing it that way.

It's not black and white. Just because people don't like the way something has changed doesn't necessarily mean that they liked the way it was before either.





This seems to be the argument in every thread on this forum.

"Oh, you don't like the way XXXX works? You just want everything handed to you!"

I don't really see how you can say that something is super easy and shouldn't be changed without admitting that you yourself enjoy hand outs. If you honestly don't think that earning JPs is difficult, then why do you care what happens to them at all? Do you enjoy things that aren't challenging? Are handouts only okay when they work for you?

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Hmm the implication here, so which is it? You are lazy or you aren't lazy?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

At what point does a discussion about a game mechanic turn people to do little besides insult one another? It's been pretty predominant in this thread of late, and it's gone from a debate to a series of personal attacks. Chill, and remember that it's a game.

As for the JP system, to an extent I like what it is. Is it time-consuming? Sure. It's way improved from initial, though, where most of your choices were 2-400 CP/kill at Outer Ra'Kaznar and parties at 1-2 Woh Gates camps, maybe a shot at Dho. Now there are the subgates, where with a chain and a CP mantle (and there's no excuse if you don't do Incursion now, there's a crafted one) you can see up to 6-700 in a chain, and more with a CP ring, which is available via easily-farmed sparks. Four zones, and I'm fairly certain there are decent camps in them. I've only farmed in Dho and Woh subgates myself because usually one or the other is open, so I can't say 100%, but I'm pretty sure there are camps in the other two.

One improvement I think that would make the system nicer is to either make the CP Bonus Gifts a little more potent (say 10% each one, versus 5%, which really adds to the incentive to farm at least a few JP to get some early-on CP Gifts) or else make them a bit more frequent. A lot of gifts have a 5-JP gap between them, though there are some larger gaps where there is possibility for more. Likely these are actually set aside for future gifts like JAs, JTs, and spells, but we never know until they are actually filled. I think improving the rate at which players can... well, improve the rate of CP gaining would likely help those who have little time but a desire to get some JP without hindering those who choose to take more time doing JP and get a lot more for it.

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Sorry, it just gets to the point when does the brick wall listen and stop spewing nonsense. You try to phrase things without literately calling them an idiot but then they just don't get it. Usually discussions result in heated sides because you get passionate people about a subject, in this case, people passionate about the JP system not just giving everything away to people who only have roughly 20 total JPs since the system was implemented because they openly admit they want handouts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Sorry, it just gets to the point when does the brick wall listen and stop spewing nonsense. You try to phrase things without literately calling them an idiot but then they just don't get it. Usually discussions result in heated sides because you get passionate people about a subject, in this case, people passionate about the JP system not just giving everything away to people who only have roughly 20 total JPs since the system was implemented because they openly admit they want handouts.

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You're probably the biggest example of a brick wall since you stick to this whole nonsense argument that anyone who wants JP to be easier equates to them wanting handouts, what people have suggested is things like, the double points campaign should be the permanent amount, CP chains should last longer, base CP levels should be higher. They're all fair suggestions, it wouldn't trivialise the content or make it a handout at all, it would still take a long time to cap Job points on all jobs you want to be relevant, especially if they do increase the cap to 30 per category.

At the same time people get frustrated because there are people out there who bot their Job Points and then brag about how easy it is to get JP, I'm not saying everyone does it, that would be ridiculous but it paints a massive negative stigma to farming JP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tidis

You're probably the biggest example of a brick wall since you stick to this whole nonsense argument that anyone who wants JP to be easier equates to them wanting handouts, what people have suggested is things like, the double points campaign should be the permanent amount, CP chains should last longer, base CP levels should be higher. They're all fair suggestions, it wouldn't trivialise the content or make it a handout at all, it would still take a long time to cap Job points on all jobs you want to be relevant, especially if they do increase the cap to 30 per category.

At the same time people get frustrated because there are people out there who bot their Job Points and then brag about how easy it is to get JP, I'm not saying everyone does it, that would be ridiculous but it paints a massive negative stigma to farming JP.

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I stopped reading after you told me I equate people to wanting handouts when the post before last I literally quoted him implying he enjoys handouts.

If you took 5 seconds to read the thread instead of jumping down someones throat you would know that my position isn't on weather JPs are easy or hard to obtain, and I could care less. Make them easier to obtain I just get them faster. I do care though, especially playing this game since NA release, when a player now and days blatantly wants this or that just for the sake of them being lazy. Which has been implied, and flat out said, by people in this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

I stopped reading after you told me I equate people to wanting handouts when the post before last I literally quoted him implying he enjoys handouts.

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Yeah just read that, he never said that, now you're just making stuff up to defend your argument.

I'd also like to requote this

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Protey

I'm beginning to wonder if he (Mrkillface aka FrankReynolds) even plays the game anymore. Looking at FFXIAH he has 2 JP and hasn't bought or sold anything from AH since September.

edit: added specifically who I was referring to.

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The dude trying to validate how horrible the system is isn't even playing the game. Now granted he could be an alt, or he literally logs on and just sits in town, but even his shells have him as inactive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tidis

Yeah just read that, he never said that, now you're just making stuff up to defend your argument.

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Good one.

I'll quote this for you to hopefully help you understand what an implication is.

im·pli·ca·tion
ˌimpləˈkāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: implication; plural noun: implications

1.
the conclusion that can be drawn from something, although it is not explicitly stated.

2.
the action or state of being involved in something.


Basically, he said it, but he didn't, which if he is as intelligent as he tries to portray, he wouldn't, to try and pull what you are pulling by stating he never said it. The last thing he said not only implied that he enjoys handouts (and this is ignoring the implication of that in most of his responses in this thread), but he tried to straw man the argument.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Bad analogies are bad. I'm bad at understanding analogies

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Fixed that for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Hmm the implication here, so which is it? You are lazy or you aren't lazy?

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I don't see any implication of being lazy in there. Is there some hidden text that I missed? While we're on the subject though, do you honestly believe that if I spend my time doing assaults and you spend yours farming JP that I am somehow lazy while you are not? Do you have a special keyboard that makes it harder to hit the weapon skill macro whenever it senses that you are doing JP? Where can I get one of those?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

I'd also like to requote this

The dude trying to validate how horrible the system is isn't even playing the game. Now granted he could be an alt, or he literally logs on and just sits in town, but even his shells have him as inactive.

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Those sites are horribly inaccurate. One of the shells that FFXIAH lists was broken like 2-3 years ago. But thanks for checking in on me. It's good to have fans. It is true that I haven't been on that character much lately though. I've been busy gearing and farming currencies on my other characters. Mrkill does just sit in town all day most days.

But hey, when you have no logical argument, just attack the person instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Basically, he said it, but he didn't, which if he is as intelligent as he tries to portray, he wouldn't, to try and pull what you are pulling by stating he never said it. Basically the last thing he said not only implied that he enjoys handouts (and this is ignoring the implication of that in most of his responses in this thread), but he tried to straw man the argument.

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I do enjoy hand outs. I didn't ask for any though. I argued for a system to behave as advertised and / or at least be less boring and time consuming to complete. Like I suggested before, you wanting to push buttons in a different area of the game than where I like to push buttons doesn't make you any more or less lazy than I am. You'll have to come up with a new way to insult me.

You said that getting JP was easy by your standards. Then you called people who wanted getting JP to be easy by their standards lazy. Implying that it's only okay for things to be easy for you, not for other people. Calling that a straw man won't make it any less true.

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Really? People never complained about merits?

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Really. They didn't. Yes, people complained about specific things like "c'mon SE, un-cap the weapon skill merits" or "cmon SE, let me get everything!" But not about the system as a whole.

But did people complain about how long they took? Did they complain about how much abilities cost? In other words, the stuff people are complaining about here? No, not really. Did they complain about how important or unimportant merits were? No, not really. Complaints about merits were pinprick on the surface of what is the *$%&ing about job points.

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I'm pretty sure that I've seen you posting in some of those very same threads quite a bit...

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I've posted opposing threads complaining about the caps on merit groups. Those arent threads complaining that merits as a whole are bad and that merits are earned too slow and are too important / too unimportant. This whole thread is primarily about job points being a terrible grind and being too important/unimportant, things that were (almost) never complained about with the merit system which is, in most ways other than the rate of earning, extremely similar.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Really. They didn't. Yes, people complained about specific things like "c'mon SE, un-cap the weapon skill merits" or "cmon SE, let me get everything!" But not about the system as a whole.

But did people complain about how long they took? Did they complain about how much abilities cost? In other words, the stuff people are complaining about here? No, not really. Did they complain about how important or unimportant merits were? No, not really. Complaints about merits were pinprick on the surface of what is the *$%&ing about job points.

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People complained about merits for years, but for slightly different reasons? Okay... and then what? You brought them up. You said people didn't complain. They did complain though. A lot. For a long time.

Please provide the 100s of old threads complaining about the merit system that has a majority of the populace agreeing the merit system was garbage. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

People complained about merits for years, but for slightly different reasons? Okay... and then what? You brought them up. You said people didn't complain. They did complain though. A lot. For a long time.

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No. They didn't complain a lot. They complained very little by comparison, nothing like what I'm seeing here now. Most people liked merit points outside of minor grievances. You're just bending this to mean what you want it to mean. People are complaining about job point issues where merit points worked the same and people didn't complain much. Please dig up the alleged slew of threads where people complained that (SPECIFICALLY) merits take too long and that they are (or aren't) important. I'd really like to see them.

As per the above poster, you can't because it didn't really happen.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Why do you think people are asking for lower requirements on the JP system? They want to be better...

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Without having to do much to obtain being better.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I'll do what I want. I've been playing this game since the JP release and I'll keep trying to make it better for me and other people like me until they shut it down whether you like it or not. Deal with it.

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yes, you and others like you are doing so well at making the game better that when SE did what you advocate for it caused massive amounts of people to leave the game. Good job.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

No, I just possess adequate mental faculties to recognize a trend that hasn't changed in over ten years of FFXI.

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more falsehoods from you. PUG don't ask what JPs or merits one has.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Yes. People who don't have experience because they don't get invites have a much harder time actually leading groups. Leading a bunch of failed runs adn / or constantly asking someone else to lead your party quickly leads to people not joining your groups.

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wow, really. because the concept of gathering people together to figure something out just doesn't cross your mind? you know, like when content first comes out? and heaven forbid people actually look at wikis and forums to figure things out. I think you don't consider obvious possibilities, or possibly even omit them on purpose, and are just here to argue for the sake of arguing.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

You don't have to get them either. You can waste time killing bunnies all day without the JP system. Your argument is void.

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your statement does not disprove what i said. so no, my argument is not void. you just state irrelevant things.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I'm very capable. I'm just not a dick to people who aren't.

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as is typical with someone who can't give legitimate arguments, you resort to immature name calling.