[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

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Originally Posted by Zaknafein

A trophy system could work like that. Like the one used in Abyssea. Rank 1-5. The highest most difficult NM's giving everyone a 1st tier trophy when defeated. Only difference would be you can only trade trophies down. That would prevent spamming, and trading up to get T1 trophies. I would have no issue with that sort of model.

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this sounds pretty good. each item would then cost a different amount of trophies, bodies and weapons would cost the most. while the random rings etc. would only take afew trophies

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Originally Posted by saevel

If you had actually read my post instead of hitting reply after the first three sentences you'd know this.

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Again, I marvel at the assumptions and condescension rife in your posts. Just because I only quote the first part of your post in an effort to minimize wall o' text for other readers on this forum as a COURTESY, does not mean I did not read your post and merely hit Reply after the first three sentences. For the record, look up. I did it again.

I actually did read your post. However, I did not wish to enter into a debate over the ethical qualities of operant conditioning chambers and video game addiction, thus I did not address the remainder of your post. What I WILL say on that issue is that our society has not yet recognized gaming addiction to be on the same tier as gambling addiction or chemical-induced addiction, which have quantifiable and severe social impacts. Maybe the tides of societal mores will change as we get more and more stories of kids collapsing from exhaustion after 24-hour marathon sessions. Who knows?

On a side note, it's important to recognize that gaming isn't addictive in the technical sense of the term. Some people with addictive personalities are more susceptible to becoming addicted to gaming, gambling, etc. Some people are probably addicted to VW in the hopes of having that Toci's drop "on the next one, I can feel it." Just as some blue-haired grannies in Atlantic City are more susceptible to pulling the lever of that slot machine because they will win "on the next one, I can feel it." Or someone betting the lottery Quickpick because "my lucky number will come, I just know it." I would probably argue that the blue-haired granny is being damaged more from a financial and social standpoint (losing her money, isolated since slots are a solitary activity, probably ordering drinks from the casino waitress, etc.). Yet the casinos or the lottery commission have not really been taken to task for their ethical transgressions because they derive revenue for the state. Ultimately, we as a society seem to be fine with having a certain amount of tempting activities out there, and leave it to the individual/social workers/support groups/clinics to come to grips with their consequences.

In any event, to get back on topic, I note that yet again you are creating a strawman argument by continually referring to Voidwatch drop rates in your responses to me, which I have expressly said REPEATEDLY in this thread that I am not in support of with respect to Legion. As I have said, I would support Abyssea-type drop rates, which you admit is a "non-Skinner system" (which is a bit of a misnomer since it still contains facets of an operant conditioning chamber). Although I'm sure the devs will not use Abyssea drop rates again since they probably think people got their items too fast and abandoned the content, so I guess I would be fine with slightly lower drop rates than those (15-20%?).

Someday I'd like them to code into VW a system whereby the more times you've killed an NM the more likely his rare drops will fall. This would mitigate against the poor sap that is statistics misfortunate one.

Say a random drop is set at 1%. After 25 kills it goes to 5%. After 50 kills it goes to 20 %. After 75 kills it raises to 50%. After 100 kills it becomes a 100% drop. That way in the end you do no worse than 1/100 for something that has a 1% drop rate to start. And the odds are you'll get that item somewhere in the 30-40 kill range if you have even average luck.

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

Someday I'd like them to code into VW a system whereby the more times you've killed an NM the more likely his rare drops will fall. This would mitigate against the poor sap that is statistics misfortunate one.

Say a random drop is set at 1%. After 25 kills it goes to 5%. After 50 kills it goes to 20 %. After 75 kills it raises to 50%. After 100 kills it becomes a 100% drop. That way in the end you do no worse than 1/100 for something that has a 1% drop rate to start. And the odds are you'll get that item somewhere in the 30-40 kill range if you have even average luck.

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While this is a great idea Rune has pointed it out many times they found a event they can milk with little effort on their part. Any adjustments to drops won't come till the event is bearly done. Really look how much and fast voiddust moves on the AH, the devs won't mess with it.

Heya everyone :)

I got word back from the development team about the point system.

It's as most have been saying, you will receive points for every monster that you defeat. Regardless of how many players are participating, everyone will receive the same amount of points and the amount gained will not change based on difficulty (18 person/ 36 person).

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Again, I marvel at the assumptions and condescension rife in your posts. Just because I only quote the first part of your post in an effort to minimize wall o' text for other readers on this forum as a COURTESY, does not mean I did not read your post and merely hit Reply after the first three sentences. For the record, look up. I did it again.

I actually did read your post. However, I did not wish to enter into a debate over the ethical qualities of operant conditioning chambers and video game addiction, thus I did not address the remainder of your post. What I WILL say on that issue is that our society has not yet recognized gaming addiction to be on the same tier as gambling addiction or chemical-induced addiction, which have quantifiable and severe social impacts. Maybe the tides of societal mores will change as we get more and more stories of kids collapsing from exhaustion after 24-hour marathon sessions. Who knows?

On a side note, it's important to recognize that gaming isn't addictive in the technical sense of the term. Some people with addictive personalities are more susceptible to becoming addicted to gaming, gambling, etc. Some people are probably addicted to VW in the hopes of having that Toci's drop "on the next one, I can feel it." Just as some blue-haired grannies in Atlantic City are more susceptible to pulling the lever of that slot machine because they will win "on the next one, I can feel it." Or someone betting the lottery Quickpick because "my lucky number will come, I just know it." I would probably argue that the blue-haired granny is being damaged more from a financial and social standpoint (losing her money, isolated since slots are a solitary activity, probably ordering drinks from the casino waitress, etc.). Yet the casinos or the lottery commission have not really been taken to task for their ethical transgressions because they derive revenue for the state. Ultimately, we as a society seem to be fine with having a certain amount of tempting activities out there, and leave it to the individual/social workers/support groups/clinics to come to grips with their consequences.

In any event, to get back on topic, I note that yet again you are creating a strawman argument by continually referring to Voidwatch drop rates in your responses to me, which I have expressly said REPEATEDLY in this thread that I am not in support of with respect to Legion. As I have said, I would support Abyssea-type drop rates, which you admit is a "non-Skinner system" (which is a bit of a misnomer since it still contains facets of an operant conditioning chamber). Although I'm sure the devs will not use Abyssea drop rates again since they probably think people got their items too fast and abandoned the content, so I guess I would be fine with slightly lower drop rates than those (15-20%?).

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I haven't insulted you a single time, only mentioned that if you didn't understand who Dr. Skinner was you should go look up his work. All you did was look up a single wiki article, you didn't actually look up the various reward schedules nor the results of those studies and how their being applied in MMO's. When you call people arrogant you might want to look in a mirror nearby first, and wait an hour or two before pounding keys.

Video Game addiction ~is~ a recognized medical condition now. It doesn't form a chemical addiction but instead forms a behavioral addiction in the same manor gambling does. There are some very bad "F2P" games out there that capitalize on this and have found optimal ways to extract revenue from a human beings irrational desire for a reward. In other words, the game is technically "free" but to get a better chance at a reward you must spend real money, the ratio's are optimized in such a way that players can and will spend upwards of $100 USD a month on these games.

Voidwatch is blatant application of behavioral science to a video game with the intention of optimizing content endurance.

Sound so nicer when you use business terms. It's just using an artificially low drop rate to ensure a lower developer budget for higher profit margins. Especially as there is very little to do in FFXI other then VWNM and Abyssea (for those still working on things).

These methods in and of themselves are not bad, but its the associated reasons behind them that are unethical. Humans are not rats and shouldn't be conditioned in video games. Its identical to the tobacco companies targeting teens for advertisements and altering the content of their product to make them more addictive.

What about the quality of items?

Will they be lower quality than what you can receive inside? Will they be entirely different? Will you be able to use the items you buy points with for crafts or synergy?

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Originally Posted by saevel

I haven't insulted you a single time, only mentioned that if you didn't understand who Dr. Skinner was you should go look up his work. All you did was look up a single wiki article, you didn't actually look up the various reward schedules nor the results of those studies and how their being applied in MMO's. When you call people arrogant you might want to look in a mirror nearby first, and wait an hour or two before pounding keys.

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Never said you insulted me, just made assumptions about my knowledge base (which you are doing again now) and accused me in a condescending tone of not reading stuff but hitting Reply after three sentences, in effect having the attention span of Joe Average Forum Poster. Also never mentioned one word about Wiki, or that I've only read "a single wiki article", so at this point you might be confusing me with someone else (at best) or making more random assumptions (at worst). Notwithstanding all of this, you do make some good points about video game addiction, which at this point we should probably leave to the wayside for fear of derailing this thread further.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Heya everyone :)

I got word back from the development team about the point system.

It's as most have been saying, you will receive points for every monster that you defeat. Regardless of how many players are participating, everyone will receive the same amount of points and the amount gained will not change based on difficulty (18 person/ 36 person).

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so it's leech-friendly, good to know, bad to play, got it.

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Video Game addiction ~is~ a recognized medical condition now

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Behavioral, and Chemical Addiction are recognized medical conditions. Not Video Game, or <insert anything else here>. What you get addicted to doesn't matter much, the core of the treatment process is the same. You can become addicted to anything from video games to tiddly winks given the right conditions. MMOs in general promote certain behavioral patterns, the issue you are questioning is not specific to Voidwatch. It's part of any and every MMO as a whole.

All of this crap is really irrelevant to the topic at hand, though. Whether or not Voidwatch is designed to addict us to the game (as if people who have played the game long enough to be doing voidwatch aren't already addicted anyway) has nothing to do with why we don't like it. We don't like it because the reward level is so low that it actually prevents most of us from getting the proverbial carrot on the end of the stick. The tasty addicting nuggets are dispensed at too low a rate for people to get hooked in. I've only done a few VW fights, and while the fights themselves were kind of interesting, I have no real drive to stick with it because I don't see it as rewarding.

P.S. if you're going to lecture people on medical science, make sure you at least use spell check and then also verify that spellcheck corrected to the right word (manor, as in a house, vs manner, as in a method)

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

Will you be able to use the items you buy points with for crafts or synergy?

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good god I hope not. There's enough whining on here already about busting your ass in ___ event only to get an ash log and a chocobo feather as it is. We really don't need another source.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

so it's leech-friendly, good to know, bad to play, got it.

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1) Your gear is pretty leech-tier in its own right.

2) Your previous posts on this forum don't give me a much better impression of your "skill"

3) Don't invite leeches if you don't like them leeching.

4) This will probably mean that no one will invite you, so you may want to quit moaning while you're ahead.

How is it "leech friendly" anyway? If not everyone in your party is performing to the best of their ability, everyone will get less points. "Leeching" will be far less rewarding than actually participating.

These are NMish monsters you'll be fighting. This isn't "Grind like abyssea and get rewarded for it."

it doesn't mean Leech friendly, what it means is that you might as well bring in as many people as you can if you after points cause you can kill and earn that much fast

They've made it 'Leech Friendly' because there's no way in hell that a RDM or a BRD is going to score as highly as a Ukon WAR. If they made the reward a contribution-based one, after a couple of runs where the WARs come out with 20k points and the BRD comes out with 1k and the healers come out with 5k, everyone would just bitch over who had to come mage and take longer to get their reward.
Maybe should have put a cap in where a player had to make a minimum of 20 WS, cures, buffs, enfeebles or whatever to reach cap, but I have no idea how difficult that would be to implement.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Heya everyone :)

I got word back from the development team about the point system.

It's as most have been saying, you will receive points for every monster that you defeat. Regardless of how many players are participating, everyone will receive the same amount of points and the amount gained will not change based on difficulty (18 person/ 36 person).

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Nice to see. Now hurry up with the content so I can buy an Animator +2 with the points :D

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

They've made it 'Leech Friendly' because there's no way in hell that a RDM or a BRD is going to score as highly as a Ukon WAR. If they made the reward a contribution-based one, after a couple of runs where the WARs come out with 20k points and the BRD comes out with 1k and the healers come out with 5k, everyone would just bitch over who had to come mage and take longer to get their reward.
Maybe should have put a cap in where a player had to make a minimum of 20 WS, cures, buffs, enfeebles or whatever to reach cap, but I have no idea how difficult that would be to implement.

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guess im not as familiar with leeching as some people are. But im not planning on letting people in my run that are just going to afk. they try it and they getting a D2. as for someone paying and going in tio or somthing with there dual boxed whm. I say go ahead and let them, if they want to waste the gil and get hardly any returns no skin of my back.

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

What about the quality of items?

Will they be lower quality than what you can receive inside? Will they be entirely different? Will you be able to use the items you buy points with for crafts or synergy?

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It's been said the items the NMs drop inside will not be available from whatever vendor handles Legion points. As is, there are 3 equipment sets in the DATs that currently aren't in the live game, of which some believe they're going to be buyable with the Legion points.

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Head: Attack+15 Haste+4% STR+7 Set: Haste+6%
Body: STR+10 DEX+8 Attack+10 Accuracy+10 Crit Rate+3% Set: Haste+6%
Hands: DEX+6 Attack+15 Haste+3% Set: Haste+6%
Legs: DEX+7 AGI+7 Attack+10 Evasion+5 Haste+2% Set: Haste+6%
Feet: STR+8 DEX+5 Enmity+4 Set: Haste+6%
96 WAR PLD DRK BST DRG

Head: STR+5 DEX+5 MND+5 Attack+10 Haste+5% Set: Crit Rate +5%
Body: DEX+6 AGI+6 MND+6 Acc+10 R.acc+10 Evasion+10 Haste+4% Set: Crit Rate +5%
Hands: STR+5 DEX+5 AGI+5 Double Attack+3% Set: Crit Rate +5%
Legs: STR+5 DEX+5 Store TP+5 Haste+3% Set: Crit Rate +5%
Feet: DEX+6 AGI+6 Evasion+5 Haste+2% Subtle Blow+5 Set: Crit Rate+5%
96 MNK RNG SAM NIN THF COR PUP DNC

Head: HP+30 STR+5 INT+8 MND+8 M.acc+3 Set: M.acc+5
Body: HP+40 MP+40 INT+10 MND+10 CHR+10 Cure Potency+5% MAB+5 Set: M.acc+5
Hands: MP+30 M.acc+7 Fast Cast+2 Enmity-4 Set: M.acc+5
Legs: INT+8 CHR+8 Summoning+6 MAB+3 Enmity-5 Set: M.acc+5
Feet: HP+25 MP+25 MND+9 CHR+9 MDB+5 Enmity-7 Set: M.acc+5
96 WHM BLM RDM BLU SMN BRD SCH

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Not very impressive, I think, especially since you'll likely need to partake in a number of successful Legions to get a single piece. I'm rather underwhelmed by the mage set, personally.

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Originally Posted by Tile

guess im not as familiar with leeching as some people are. But im not planning on letting people in my run that are just going to afk. they try it and they getting a D2. as for someone paying and going in tio or somthing with there dual boxed whm. I say go ahead and let them, if they want to waste the gil and get hardly any returns no skin of my back.

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There are people who have a whole alliance of accounts. They could happily enter and dual box a melee and a mage while their other 14 accounts sit out of the way accruing points for every run. If the items obtainable with points are saleable, they're £££$$$ in, or can just buy all items at once and trade them all to main char, since all 18 chars will accrue points at exactly the same rate.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Not very impressive, I think, especially since you'll likely need to partake in a number of successful Legions to get a single piece. I'm rather underwhelmed by the mage set, personally.

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PUP is missing on the mage set, so those items are probably placeholders. And looks like level-boosted perle/aurora/teal.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Never said you insulted me, just made assumptions about my knowledge base (which you are doing again now) and accused me in a condescending tone of not reading stuff but hitting Reply after three sentences, in effect having the attention span of Joe Average Forum Poster. Also never mentioned one word about Wiki, or that I've only read "a single wiki article", so at this point you might be confusing me with someone else (at best) or making more random assumptions (at worst). Notwithstanding all of this, you do make some good points about video game addiction, which at this point we should probably leave to the wayside for fear of derailing this thread further.

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I am treating you with the measure that you've demonstrated. Firstly with your statement that making gear buy-able with points would in effect destroy the event. The rationale being that if gear was obtainable within a reasonable amount of time (point buyable is this) that it wouldn't last long enough and the developers would be required to work more. No matter how you twist your words, you were advocating a game company artificially extend the life of content via controlling with variable scheduled rewards, aka a skinners box. I told you this point blank and then gave you details and examples on exactly how that was a bad idea. You got your panties in a bunch and proceeded to attempt to cow me by goggling the details of what I posted and obtaining a cursory knowledge. Unfortunately for you I actually do know what I'm talking about as it was a small hobby of mine many years back. The remaining posts were you painting yourself into a corner while attempting to maintain dignity.

Your original argument that events based around variable scheduled rewards are a good thing because they artificially extend the life of content has been proven invalid. Some random reward systems are expected, even encouraged, but game designers using that as the primary means to attract and maintain participation constitutes an abuse of the irrational human reward system. Game content should have a high shelf life because it is enjoyable, not because it requires 200+ events per item to acquire your reward. The "fun" of the event has long worn off and it's been reduced to a grind fest, that's bad by the way.

I am in no way being condescending. If instead of trying to incite a war about who can act the wittiest, you put forth studies or valid arguments to counter those points I made I would of treated you like an intellectual.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

It's been said the items the NMs drop inside will not be available from whatever vendor handles Legion points. As is, there are 3 equipment sets in the DATs that currently aren't in the live game, of which some believe they're going to be buyable with the Legion points.



Not very impressive, I think, especially since you'll likely need to partake in a number of successful Legions to get a single piece. I'm rather underwhelmed by the mage set, personally.

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Ohh god not more "every mage" gear that ends up being absolute sh!t. You can already beat every piece of "every mage" gear with either Emp armor or AH acquirable gear.

It's absolute trash.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

There are people who have a whole alliance of accounts. They could happily enter and dual box a melee and a mage while their other 14 accounts sit out of the way accruing points for every run. If the items obtainable with points are saleable, they're £££$$$ in, or can just buy all items at once and trade them all to main char, since all 18 chars will accrue points at exactly the same rate.

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Who gives a shit. If they're paying for 18 accounts, and setting up rigs capable of running them all at once, let them do whatever they want. It's their own problem if they're insistent on spending that much money on a game.

And good luck duo'ing these NMs with one mage and one melee.

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Originally Posted by saevel

I am in no way being condescending. If instead of trying to incite a war about who can act the wittiest, you put forth studies or valid arguments to counter those points I made I would of treated you like an intellectual.

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Just reading this thread now, and not choosing sides or anything lol, but just to clarify... this isn't condescending?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

And good luck duo'ing these NMs with one mage and one melee.

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People already managed it on the test server, killing 1-2 mobs before time out.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

There are people who have a whole alliance of accounts. They could happily enter and dual box a melee and a mage while their other 14 accounts sit out of the way accruing points for every run. If the items obtainable with points are saleable, they're £££$$$ in, or can just buy all items at once and trade them all to main char, since all 18 chars will accrue points at exactly the same rate.

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They would all accrue points, but they wouldn't accrue many. How many NMs can you really kill in 30 minutes, with only 2 people fighting?

EDIT: Just to clarify. If 2 people can kill 1-2, then 18 people can kill what? 15-20? So instead of getting points for 20 kills on one character, the guy gets points for @30 kills spread across 18 characters... I see very little benefit to doing it that way. That's really not much of an exploit.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

People already managed it on the test server, killing 1-2 mobs before time out.

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Oh no, spending 360k to kill a whole two NMs.

What ever shall we do.

Instead of having one person spend the 360k gil on one KI to be shared by many - it would be better to make us pay individually for 20-30k each time. This looks like it's going to be a closed event - instead of the open nature of VW and Walk of Echoes. Here is hoping that the gears will be a side grade alternative to the other gears from VW, WoE and Abyssea so that this will become optional. Seems like once you reach level 99, all you do is collecting gears in this game :)

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Originally Posted by saevel

I am treating you with the measure that you've demonstrated. Firstly with your statement that making gear buy-able with points would in effect destroy the event. The rationale being that if gear was obtainable within a reasonable amount of time (point buyable is this) that it wouldn't last long enough and the developers would be required to work more. No matter how you twist your words, you were advocating a game company artificially extend the life of content via controlling with variable scheduled rewards, aka a skinners box. I told you this point blank and then gave you details and examples on exactly how that was a bad idea. You got your panties in a bunch and proceeded to attempt to cow me by goggling the details of what I posted and obtaining a cursory knowledge. Unfortunately for you I actually do know what I'm talking about as it was a small hobby of mine many years back. The remaining posts were you painting yourself into a corner while attempting to maintain dignity.

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No, my remaining posts were advocating an Abyssea-type drop rate, which you expressly said was a non-Skinner system. I maintain my view that making an ENTIRE event's gear purchasable with points would in effect destroy the event. Making ALL of Abyssea's +2 trinkets/gear purchasable by points would drastically decrease the event's shelf life. This has been borne out by Fell Cleave cruor parties, has it not? People are making Cruor hand over fist. Imagine if they could purchase +2 trinkets for every job with this Cruor. Bam, dead event walking. People already mostly look the same in their +2 armor. Do you want Joe Schmoe and his 17-WHM mule cruor strikeforce to trade in their ill-gotten gains for instant +2? Do you want RMT to purchase every piece of gear available in Limbus through ABC's without beating Ultima/Omega? Note this argument was in my original post, which you didn't even respond to, so I'm not sure where you get justification for stating that I haven't put forth valid arguments.

What you essentially did was take my original post and extrapolate it to its extreme as a springboard for your Skinner soapbox, never allowing for a middle ground where an event can take on certain facets of an operative conditioning chamber (Abyssea) while not turning into an egregious variable reward system (Voidwatch). Ironically, making ALL gear in an event purchasable by points could potentially lead to a grindfest in and of itself, and require 200+ events per item to acquire some of the best rewards.

In any event, as the below post indicates, we have overstayed our welcome as I feared. Seems we BOTH agree Voidwatch drop rates are egregious, so I'm going to leave it at that and stop engaging with you on these issues.

Will you two (Saevel and Mahoro) please get a room?

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Making ALL of Abyssea's +2 trinkets/gear purchasable by points would drastically decrease the event's shelf life. This has been borne out by Fell Cleave cruor parties, has it not? People are making Cruor hand over fist. Imagine if they could purchase +2 trinkets for every job with this Cruor. Bam, dead event walking. People already mostly look the same in their +2 armor. Do you want Joe Schmoe and his 17-WHM mule cruor strikeforce to trade in their ill-gotten gains for instant +2?

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If it costed 360k to enter abyssea, and you could only stay for 30 minutes, then there really would be no problem. Making the points requirement for gear high enough that it is still in most cases faster to get the gear through random drops, ensures that people will continue to do the event as intended, but know that if things don't go their way they will eventually get the drop. There are no fodder mobs to grind out in legion. The only way to get points is to kill the same NMs you would have to kill anyways.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

See above. Ironically, making all gear in an event purchasable by points could potentially lead to a grindfest in and of itself, and require 200+ events per item to acquire some of the best rewards. Your argument makes no allowance for this.

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There is no allowance to be made. If it takes 200 events to get Item X to drop, or it takes 200 events to buy Item X with points, the outcome is the same. The only difference is that with points, you know that when you hit 200 events item X will be yours. Without points, you invariably get more and more depressed after every event where you get no drop. There is no alternate route like cruor farming in legion. You can't just go kill 2,000 mandrigoras instead of fighting the NM 20 times.


There will never be a perfect event tailored to you that is somehow so hard that other people can't do it, but easy enough that you and your friends can. There will always be a million people running around in the same gear unless SE decides to give us a dat swapping function in game.

Thanks for the Post Fransisco. Sadly, I lost some good friends because of the current plans that the 'Old' Development team is implementing, and you are correct. The LS that I was in, at best, had 12 members that remained active. With this new system, we cannot possibly achieve victory under the expected conditions. Bad blood from other players aside, the issue goes to loot rates and mobs present. Sure, it would test our skills and allow us to cooperate better, but it's only natural that issues of who gets what inbetween alliances will cause problems. Hopefully, the 'Old' Development Team will take this into consideration.

KB1

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Originally Posted by Kuwabaraone

Thanks for the Post Fransisco. Sadly, I lost some good friends because of the current plans that the 'Old' Development team is implementing, and you are correct. The LS that I was in, at best, had 12 members that remained active. With this new system, we cannot possibly achieve victory under the expected conditions. Bad blood from other players aside, the issue goes to loot rates and mobs present. Sure, it would test our skills and allow us to cooperate better, but it's only natural that issues of who gets what inbetween alliances will cause problems. Hopefully, the 'Old' Development Team will take this into consideration.

KB1

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Free lot it all. Fixed

the reason I dont care if some one pays to bring in there mules, and leechs like 3 kills for 360k is the fact they wont be able to sell anything they get. all item you got with points in einherjar, and items from limbus were r/ex won't be surprised if all these are too.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

If it costed 360k to enter abyssea, and you could only stay for 30 minutes, then there really would be no problem. Making the points requirement for gear high enough that it is still in most cases faster to get the gear through random drops, ensures that people will continue to do the event as intended, but know that if things don't go their way they will eventually get the drop. There are no fodder mobs to grind out in legion. The only way to get points is to kill the same NMs you would have to kill anyways.

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We actually don't know yet what will be considered "fodder" and what won't be. Looking at the monster list in Legion, there are clearly mob types that are easier than the others. These will likely be targeted for "Legion point farming" by smaller groups like Kuwabaroanes. Your example of 2,000 Mandragoras might be the equivalent to this.

Not sure what your point is re: the perfect event in relation to what I said. I would submit Abyssea and Einherjar were as close to perfect events as this game ever saw. Those weren't "easy for me but hard for others" as your requirements stated.

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Originally Posted by Tile

the reason I dont care if some one pays to bring in there mules, and leechs like 3 kills for 360k is the fact they wont be able to sell anything they get. all item you got with points in einherjar, and items from limbus were r/ex won't be surprised if all these are too.

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Hopefully that is the case.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

We actually don't know yet what will be considered "fodder" and what won't be. Looking at the monster list in Legion, there are clearly mob types that are easier than the others. These will likely be targeted for "Legion point farming" by smaller groups like Kuwabaroanes. Your example of 2,000 Mandragoras might be the equivalent to this.

Not sure what your point is re: the perfect event in relation to what I said. I would submit Abyssea and Einherjar were as close to perfect events as this game ever saw. Those weren't "easy for me but hard for others" as your requirements stated.

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It was in reference to the often repeated complaint that everyone is walking around in +2. Many people seem to think that they should have better gear than the rest of the populace and are upset by other players wearing the same gear as them. There is nothing you can do that someone else can't do, and in most cases there is more than one way to do it. People are always going to go after the best gear, and they are always going to wear it when they get it. This trend has always existed, and will never go away.

As for the fodder mobs, I think your being a little paranoid.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

It was in reference to the often repeated complaint that everyone is walking around in +2. Many people seem to think that they should have better gear than the rest of the populace and are upset by other players wearing the same gear as them. There is nothing you can do that someone else can't do, and in most cases there is more than one way to do it. People are always going to go after the best gear, and they are always going to wear it when they get it. This trend has always existed, and will never go away.

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Er ok, that wasn't where I was going with that, but sure, I agree. But while it may be true, there is no reason to speed up that process (or open it up to exploitative behavior) by allowing all Abyssea gear to be purchased by cruor, or all Limbus gear to be purchased by beastcoins. Each event would soon be worthless because nobody would ever fight the actual bosses. When Joe Schmoe and his 17-mule Fell Cleave ally can purchase complete sets of +2 from the NPC, that's when you know the event is DOA.

Back on topic, I wonder if Legion is a way of "making amends" with the playerbase for the unforgiving VW reward system and our cry for points systems. I am excited to see how it goes. Thanks for the continual updates Camate.

Legion is stillborn already with their old 2005 SE mentality and planning

Points system is needed, or at worst, VW's box loot system, but even that has the problem of R/E items going to the wrong person all the time. How about a way to put items into the pool?

Really, there's no way this can can support linkshells with 36+ players (18 is already pushing it and those only happen with a lot of mules or VW shouting) unless its like Walk of Echoes where anyone can participate and even that event is a wasteland when I play during NA prime time on my server.

SE is so completely out of touch it's not even funny.

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Originally Posted by Dekusuta

Legion is stillborn already with their old 2005 SE mentality and planning

Points system is needed, or at worst, VW's box loot system, but even that has the problem of R/E items going to the wrong person all the time. How about a way to put items into the pool?

Really, there's no way this can can support linkshells with 36+ players (18 is already pushing it and those only happen with a lot of mules or VW shouting) unless its like Walk of Echoes where anyone can participate and even that event is a wasteland when I play during NA prime time on my server.

SE is so completely out of touch it's not even funny.

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It sounds like you may not have skimmed the devs' posts in this thread. There is a points system in Legion, and you don't need 18 to finish the event. There are two levels of "difficulty" for groups of 18 or groups of 36, but each level does not mean you need the full 18 or 36 to participate. You can enter and get stuff done with a party of 6 or 12. Loot drops in the shared loot pool instead of individual chests.