Stop Player Bashing

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

oh, well I thought somebody did...

anyway, you're telling me that dusk gloves with hp +20, attack +5 and haste +3% is better than the aurore gloves with str +4, agi +4 and haste +2% even though when I trick attack somebody wearing the aurore gloves will give me more damage?

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Depends if you have better TA hands like the Schutzen Mittens.

Yes, the Dusk are better than the Aurore though as has been stated and given slightly more in depth details.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

anyway, you're telling me that dusk gloves with hp +20, attack +5 and haste +3% is better than the aurore gloves with str +4, agi +4 and haste +2% even though when I trick attack somebody wearing the aurore gloves will give me more damage?

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Yes. ______________________________

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

It's called a macro. You don't have to TP in your Trick attack gear.

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Shhh, you'll spook her with all these new-fangled ideas.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

oh, well I thought somebody did...

anyway, you're telling me that dusk gloves with hp +20, attack +5 and haste +3% is better than the aurore gloves with str +4, agi +4 and haste +2% even though when I trick attack somebody wearing the aurore gloves will give me more damage?

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Yes, actually. Same thing for Turban vs beret.

You know you can gear swap o.o it's not like you're always in Ballista and can't change your gear during fights! TP in haste, Trick in AGI, WS in STR or whatever is the better mod. Of course you're not forced to, but the question is why not?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Yes, actually. Same thing for Turban vs beret.

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Hey Snapshot > 1% haste. Don't make me link the snapshot page on wiki.

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Originally Posted by Seha

You know you can gear swap o.o it's not like you're always in Ballista and can't change your gear during fights! TP in haste, Trick in AGI, WS in STR or whatever is the better mod. Of course you're not forced to, but the question is why not?

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Because when you gear swap the whms can't heal you cause you blink (even when soloing).

If your not using any gear macros, you are extremely lazy.
Not using gear macros makes you a bad player for the following reason:
1, they are extremely easy to setup.
2, it requires hitting a button to activate
3, seriously do you need this explained?

Just making a tp macro and an everything else ws/sa/ta macro would greatly improve your overall capabilities.

Raenryong's awesome guide to not sucking at THF:

TP in TP gear
SA in SA gear
TA in TA gear
WS in WS gear
Evade in Eva gear

I should put this stuff on the wiki.

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

Raenryong's awesome guide to not sucking at THF:

TP in TP gear
SA in SA gear
TA in TA gear
WS in WS gear
Evade in Eva gear

I should put this stuff on the wiki.

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What about snapshot gear, town gear, and flee gear? Your guide sucks for lacking those!

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

Raenryong's awesome guide to not sucking at THF:

TP in TP gear
SA in SA gear
TA in TA gear
WS in WS gear
Evade in Eva gear

I should put this stuff on the wiki.

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You should go do that right now.

don't forget the troll gear, aka aurore

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Originally Posted by Amerlyn

I've seen several post already where someone has posted something (a suggestion) and a more Skilled player has decided it was a good idea to bash the player for his/her inabilities.

This forum was started for general game discussions/suggestions. Not meant to demean a player for his/her thoughts. You either agree with them or you don't. No need to make yourself feel big because you can do something another player can't by telling them how pathetic they are.

I really don't think SE started this site to read about how good you are and see how much you rub it in to those who can't. I'm pretty sure they started this site so people can give they're suggestions to things they think need to be changed. Idea to improve game play. Pass on your knowledge and skill to inexperienced players. Not constantly bash them.

So please. Keep it polite. Try to stay on topic. If you agree, but want to add something to the idea to make it better, do so. If you disagree with it, disagree and explain why the CHANGE wouldn't increase game play, but keep it civil to other players and stop bashing them b/c they are having difficulties with something.

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lol
Good luck Amerylyn if your goal is to create civility on an internet forum. You have your work cut out for you. They don't even do that in congress, really doubt it's gong to be done here.

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Originally Posted by Sp1cyryan

What about snapshot gear, town gear, and flee gear? Your guide sucks for lacking those!

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Whoa, leave those for the elitists. I play to have fun.

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Originally Posted by Nepharite

don't forget the troll gear, aka aurore

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I see THFs still mainhanding THFs knife (or TP in it for that matter) and using full Dragon Harness set/O hat.

Aurore is lazy troll gear.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

To Great Guardian... I'm not sure why it's not obvious why the Aurore is better for thf. Dex and Agi is best base stats for thf for acc, evasion, trick attack, etc. So... I'm surprised that you actually asked me to explain that.

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I'll bite

It's 4DEX/AGI and 4Haste vs 5% Haste, or 6% should you acquire +2 Raider's.

I'll start with evasion, my naked THF can get a pretty high evade rate on any non NM mob, evasion rate caps at 80%. AGI also helps with Trick Attack, though you should be using +AGI in a Trick attack macro, not full time.
Same applies to the DEX, same enhancement but for Sneak attack only. It also adds +crit rate until dDEX is capped, which is likely to be so with cruor buffs and RR Atma. It also offers +2 accuracy. Even if you need +2 accuracy, it won't beat the loss of Haste from Turban.

Assuming Turban put you up to 25%, moving from 24% to 25% would be

25/75*100 is a 1.8% increase in your DPS.

So it's not specifically as good a choice as you think it to be, so it would be room for criticism.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

oh, well I thought somebody did...

anyway, you're telling me that dusk gloves with hp +20, attack +5 and haste +3% is better than the aurore gloves with str +4, agi +4 and haste +2% even though when I trick attack somebody wearing the aurore gloves will give me more damage?

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Yes, remember, each point of AGI raises your weapon's DMG by 1, but keep in mind Trick attack is a 1minute recast ability without merits, your regular DPS will by far contain the higher ratio of DMG. That said, you could just gear swap between the two to maximise.

uggh..more Haste debates.

Here's something to chew on. At @200 delay, you only need about 5.5% haste to gain one extra swing per minute--so stacking in increments around 6% on a job like THF or DNC provides a substantial benefit. Not only is that increasing your DoT while TP'ing, it gets you to 100TP faster, which again increases your DoT b/c you can WS more often. As long as you can keep your ACC high enough and swap to maximize your abilities/WS consistency, Haste is a BIG boost to your DoT. There is no denying the math, and 6% (or another tier of it) can easily be done with just 1 or 2 pieces post 78 for any melee job.

And don't start that whole blinking and curing thing again. That horse has been beat to death about as much as this haste debate. It's all about setting up your macros right. Even if you didn't know about <stpt> and <stal>, <stpc> was still better then using <t> in macros. I used <stpc> for years and didn't have much issue curing people with gear swaps.

Raist

Macros, they're so complicated!

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Originally Posted by Sp1cyryan

There is a reason these forums are being openly mocked from every corner of the web on FFXI sites.

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Ironic, seeing how they're all just as bad. BG is completely worthless for finding any kind of useless information (and their wiki is even worse), 'cause you have to sift through 500 pages of garbage, people being stupid, insulting, trolling and just random without any kind of actual contribution to the topic to just find one remotely useful sentence. Which also explains why they mock this official forum, 'cause it's a gathering place for all narcissistic elitists who believe they're better than anyone else and have to mock other people (whether they're right or wrong) to feel better about themselves.

FFXIAH is still ok imo, although many people there don't bother as much with ingame details as they do on BG. It still has its fair share of trolls and unhelpful elitists, which makes it very unfriendly for new people to join in.

KI was dead last time I checked, ZAM I hear isn't far from it, but I haven't been around much on either to make a statement I won't regret later. But from what I heard the situation isn't much better.

The difference between these forums and others out there is simply that this is official, which makes it attractive to people who previously didn't bother. And yes, while it does encourage some people to let their lame ideas surface, who otherwise wouldn't even dare to post, it also encourages people who are afraid of getting bashed on other forums, by the aforementioned elitist crowd, to present their smart ideas. And contrary to what people have mentioned here, there definitely are good ideas here, which the devs should not overlook. Every job forum I've checked so far has had at least one good, well thought-out idea for that particular job, and these general/mission/battle forums also had several good ideas each. There were lots of good ideas which SE would otherwise completely overlook, which is why I think bashing people on here is such a shame. Finally there's an outlet for useful ideas, where people can contribute something great to the game, something that would improve gameplay for everyone, and then those people get discouraged 'cause they see others getting thrashed, insulted and completely talked down for voicing their opinion.

Yes, there's some pretty bad ideas in here. You see it best in the job forums, where people suggest things to upgrade their favorite job for no particular reason. But those threads and posts will be forgotten quickly. What sticks around are things people care about, things people find worth discussing and implementing.

These forums have a potential of reaching higher than BG, AH, KI, ZAM and any others ever could. And people who spend their belittling these forums are one of the main things that's wrong with it, because those are usually the people that don't take people seriously or talk down on their ideas, or even the people themselves, because they don't realise that potential.

Also, can we please stop with the haste/gear debate? At least 80% of this thread is off-topic because of it.

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Ironic, seeing how they're all just as bad. BG is completely worthless for finding any kind of useless information (and their wiki is even worse), 'cause you have to sift through 500 pages of garbage, people being stupid, insulting, trolling and just random without any kind of actual contribution to the topic to just find one remotely useful sentence.

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100% wrong. Isladar mops up that shit with the quickness.

Now if you're talking about general discussion, spam, or media, yea, you'll find all the trolling in the world. In the advanced section, you'll find more useful ffxi info there than you will on any other site.

oh oh Bieber might get banned!
he said the bad word: Isladar

You know who the worst ones are? People who pretend they were "bashed" when they were being jerks themselves are the worst of the worst. They ruin things for everyone and make it harder for legitimate complaints to be heard by the mods/admins.

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People who deliberately walk the fine line of not actually breaking the rules are just as bad as the people who occasionally do. They intimidate many nice players who then are too scared to post suggestions 'cause they fear being bashed and made fun of.

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Also applies to being painted a villain - the knowledgeable folks will get run off by posters who who troll/flame bait them then start hiding behind the rules or pretend they were attacked.

I hate back-seat moderators to - people that try to act like they are one of the staff but aren't.

Off topic myself a bit, but would like to point out that this thread, which was created in the purpose of backing up a set rule is getting more Views than the actual forum rule sticky in this section. 3600 views on my thread, only 243 on the forum sticky. I would think that was an important forum to read. Just felt like pointing out. I know no one is concerned with rules... <.<

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Ironic, seeing how they're all just as bad. BG is completely worthless for finding any kind of useless information (and their wiki is even worse), 'cause you have to sift through 500 pages of garbage, people being stupid, insulting, trolling and just random without any kind of actual contribution to the topic to just find one remotely useful sentence. Which also explains why they mock this official forum, 'cause it's a gathering place for all narcissistic elitists who believe they're better than anyone else and have to mock other people (whether they're right or wrong) to feel better about themselves.

FFXIAH is still ok imo, although many people there don't bother as much with ingame details as they do on BG. It still has its fair share of trolls and unhelpful elitists, which makes it very unfriendly for new people to join in.

KI was dead last time I checked, ZAM I hear isn't far from it, but I haven't been around much on either to make a statement I won't regret later. But from what I heard the situation isn't much better.

The difference between these forums and others out there is simply that this is official, which makes it attractive to people who previously didn't bother. And yes, while it does encourage some people to let their lame ideas surface, who otherwise wouldn't even dare to post, it also encourages people who are afraid of getting bashed on other forums, by the aforementioned elitist crowd, to present their smart ideas. And contrary to what people have mentioned here, there definitely are good ideas here, which the devs should not overlook. Every job forum I've checked so far has had at least one good, well thought-out idea for that particular job, and these general/mission/battle forums also had several good ideas each. There were lots of good ideas which SE would otherwise completely overlook, which is why I think bashing people on here is such a shame. Finally there's an outlet for useful ideas, where people can contribute something great to the game, something that would improve gameplay for everyone, and then those people get discouraged 'cause they see others getting thrashed, insulted and completely talked down for voicing their opinion.

Yes, there's some pretty bad ideas in here. You see it best in the job forums, where people suggest things to upgrade their favorite job for no particular reason. But those threads and posts will be forgotten quickly. What sticks around are things people care about, things people find worth discussing and implementing.

These forums have a potential of reaching higher than BG, AH, KI, ZAM and any others ever could. And people who spend their belittling these forums are one of the main things that's wrong with it, because those are usually the people that don't take people seriously or talk down on their ideas, or even the people themselves, because they don't realise that potential.

Also, can we please stop with the haste/gear debate? At least 80% of this thread is off-topic because of it.

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/thread rly, but on another note a thread like this is just screaming for an argument lul it's not something that can be discussed without there being a bunch of QQing on each side and thus it's no longer a quiet discussion but QQ for all. So the best thing would be to just have something like this stickied by GMs on each section of the forum to let BASHERS be warned.

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Originally Posted by GlobalVariable

You know who the worst ones are? People who pretend they were "bashed" when they were being jerks themselves are the worst of the worst. They ruin things for everyone and make it harder for legitimate complaints to be heard by the mods/admins. Also applies to being painted a villain - the knowledgeable folks will get run off by posters who who troll/flame bait them then start hiding behind the rules or pretend they were attacked.

I hate back-seat moderators to - people that try to act like they are one of the staff but aren't.

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^. If you antagonize someone, they are going to respond in kind. You can't waltz into an informative thread, say "lol you guys are nerdz..." and then get mad when people jump on you =/.

+1 for armchair economists who think their high school macro-econ class makes them expert enough to tell the Community Team how the game needs to develop in order to keep players.

GG, hes upset at me. B/c i said in my opinion an argument based on laziness is invalid. Thinking it a hassle to turn off/on a filter with a simple command sounds like laziness to me. That if a player is gonna disagree with an idea just because on that detail they should at least argue an alternate suggestion and not just dismiss an entire idea b/c of it. He took offense to my opinion b/c he considers himself in the group i labeled lazy. I apologized for it b/c I not only was i tired when I posted the comment but i was border lined bashing players with my opinion. I tried to continue the conversation with him by explaining my reasoning behind my opinion and by informing him I do not see him in set group (i truely don't). I guess i'm bad at explanations b/c he followed me here to harass me bout it. And obviously didn't except my apology. Feel free to read it though, its the last couple pages of "Server-wide Chat Channel". Wouldn't mind your thoughts on the situation. In the end I gave up on trying to explain my reasoning in hopes he would come to understand i meant no offense. But he continued so I decided to put him on my ignore list.

Although I do appreciate that he didn't name names in the post. He is keeping it civil in here. He also does give sound advice, I have seen some of his arguments on other posts. I agreed with most. So maybe it was the way I handled the situation. If so i do apologize again.

This post is entirely off topic, I do hope they install some kind of messaging system soon so we can kinda keep these threads on topic and take arguements to private.

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Originally Posted by HFX7686

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

The truth can be read on the haste thread if anybody wants to go read all the nonsense. yes. My first post on the thread was a trollish statement.
So yes, you did in fact initiate the trolling on the haste thread.

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So yes, you did in fact initiate the trolling on the haste thread.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

But after hours of the arguing, the first person I said sounded stupid was the one who said that anybody who didn't wear haste gear was the same as somebody who wears slow gear. And I said that anybody who agreed with that statement was an idiot. I was trying to keep my cool and argue from experience/perspective for a long time before that point. And reading that as proof that I was stupid as a player for not wearing a bunch of haste gear just pushed that last button of mine. I'm sorry if anybody read my very first post as an insult or as bashing. it wasn't meant to be read that way other than to poke fun at "haste whores". But to outright lie that the troll started name calling and bashing first? That's hilarious. I never once in that entire thread told somebody else that their game play was wrong. I spent that time defending my own decision of game play style, not putting everybody else down.

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You advocated a play style that is outright wrong and was proven wrong multiple times by multiple people. At this point you went bonkers and started accusing everyone of bashing you and being a troll because they were explaining why you were wrong. You have equated people correcting your misinformation with insults and put-downs.

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Tell me that doesn't look like what I was talking about.

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Originally Posted by Amerlyn

I guess i'm bad at explanations b/c he followed me here to harass me bout it.

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For the love of god put me on your ignore list.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Wall of text.

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It's so easy for you to defend a plethora of terrible ideas, and blame the issue with this forum on the "elitist jerks" who have nothing better to do but to put down ignorance.

Only when the good ideas are put down should you jump in and white knight your posters, because when you defend people who are absolutely defiantly incapable of accepting logic (see: beck), you label your opinions as worthless. If you do nothing but attack the individuals who have provided most of the knowledge available about the game, we won't get anywhere. The problem is not only "those elitist jerks", it's everyone suggesting horrible ideas and the people supporting them. It doesn't matter how many good ideas there are, if they are all hidden under a bunch of terrible ones why would SE bother reading through it all? Stop supporting those who make the opinions of NA's look like trash. Those who submit terrible ideas, and refuse to let go of it when reason is given for why it is bad are the problem.

Also, you are correct in saying "seeing how they're all just as bad. BG is completely worthless for finding any kind of useless information".

just gonna say I agree with the OP here. plain and simple. I've even had sarcastic/rude comment on a very normal post I made and its just irritating.

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Originally Posted by Anucris

just gonna say I agree with the OP here. plain and simple. I've even had sarcastic/rude comment on a very normal post I made and its just irritating.

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Welcome to the world of internet forums Anucris. Don't worry, you will become numb to it after awhile lol

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Originally Posted by RAIST

uggh..more Haste debates.

Here's something to chew on. At @200 delay, you only need about 5.5% haste to gain one extra swing per minute--so stacking in increments around 6% on a job like THF or DNC provides a substantial benefit.

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Uh...wat is this i dont even

this thread should have been locked at 1 post. i skipped the other 23 pages just to troll it.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

this thread should have been locked at 1 post. i skipped the other 23 pages just to troll it.

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And you failed, nice one bro.

Okay I just want to get this out of my system.

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Hey, GM, come here for a second. Just for a second.
A GM walks into the thread.

Okay, use common courtesy, or else you're going in time out. Here's is your babysitter.
GM facepalms...

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Originally Posted by Vinc

The problem is not only "those elitist jerks", it's everyone suggesting horrible ideas and the people supporting them. It doesn't matter how many good ideas there are, if they are all hidden under a bunch of terrible ones why would SE bother reading through it all? Stop supporting those who make the opinions of NA's look like trash. Those who submit terrible ideas, and refuse to let go of it when reason is given for why it is bad are the problem.

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Part of the problem, yes, I even said that. But the reactions to those are still inappropriate. As I said, such threads, even if those people firmly believe in what they're saying and try to defend it, die out over time, while good ideas remain and get discussed/expanded. It's already happening here if you look through some job forums.

Also, you're forgetting that this forum just started. Some people who had bad ideas and were holding on to them just collectively signed up and posted them, which made it seem worse than it actually is. I'd give this forum a month or two before I started judging the overall quality of topics on here.

This is all about social behaviour. I'm not saying to attack anyone, not even people who attack you, even if they did deserve it. I know it's hard to hold back sometimes, but how you act is ultimately how people will perceive and respect you. I'm also not saying anyone in this thread or anyone who disagrees with me or whatever are bad, even the people I quoted in my earlier post. Stuff happens, just the way it is. I'm not saying people can't explain stuff to others, but even if they don't want to hear/accept it, and keep insisting on their idea, it's likely no one will take them seriously anyway, so why start being rude to them? Why even argue with them if you know they're not gonna learn? I just don't see how it helps.

This is not about what people do, it's about how they do it. Pointing out (even the most obvious and stupid) flaws can be done in a civilized manner. I don't get why people even bother to reply with "lol" to a post, for whatever reason, this is what I mean by "random posts" which BG is full of, posts that don't contribute anything, for anyone, and are simply off-topic.

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Originally Posted by Vinc

Also, you are correct in saying "seeing how they're all just as bad. BG is completely worthless for finding any kind of useless information".

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I knew I should have edited that, before someone uses it in a clever argument against me. Point out how information on BG is easy to find, when you look at Advanced and see threads average over 20 pages with 20 posts in each. The search function usually returns useless links of the stuff you want mentioned in passing. You criticise people posting terrible ideas, because good ideas get lost in the sea of garbage. It's the exact same thing on BG, only in bigger proportions, and it's not "terrible ideas" but just random posts, flame arguments, insults, etc. that get in the way of actually reading something you could use.

On here you can often identify good/bad ideas just by looking at the title, which makes it easier to avoid. On BG you find an interesting topic (take the Final Empyrean Armor discussion for example) and you wanna know about some effects on your piece of choice. Now you have to go through (currently) 87 pages, 1732 posts in total, in hopes of finding what you're looking for. Now you'd probably say to use the search function, but try it. Try looking up the actual effect of the THF AF3+2 set, and if you can find good results for that. It also helps a lot that we have job-specific forums here, to avoid clustering.

BG is still ahead in respect to ingame research, and honestly I don't even think that will change (at least not anytime soon), for a number of different reasons. For one, 'cause of the userbase. The majority of people who actually research the game are used to BG, their own environment and people there, and know that other, similar minds, have gathered there, and it's simply the place to get most out of it. Also, most research I know relies on third party software like Windower, Parser/Calculator programs and stuff like that, and I can imagine people wanna avoid discussing results based on those in these forums. Whatever the reason, I doubt BG will lose its edge over these forums on that front.

However, for the casual user, who wants to know something or has an idea/question about anything game-related, this is where they would most likely go, not only 'cause they're intimidated by BG, but also because this is as close to the devs as they will get. And as I said before, there's already been several good ideas I'd like to see the devs implement on here, and they're not hard to "pick out" at all.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Point out how information on BG is easy to find

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Random Question Thread: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/102...Flavor-Country

Anyone can ask anything and it is against forum rules to troll them. Easily one of the best resources for FFXI information anywhere on the net. It is mentioned in huge caps lock bold letters in the forum description and has been sticked for ages.

The massive threads in the Advanced section are not for finding old information, they're for posting new information. The people who are interested in them have either been keeping up with them from the first post or have read from the first post, and the majority of new posts are either new discoveries, testing, or discussion of previous testing/discoveries.

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and the majority of new posts are either new discoveries, testing, or discussion of previous testing/discoveries.

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They also tend to be almost all discussion. There is definitely a lot of useful information in those threads on bg, but some could be as much as 90% discussion, and only 10% new information. Unless you absolutely need to know everything asap, i've always found it easier to just wait for the information to be reposted to alla/wiki, and if i needed to know something in particular, either search, or RQT it.

However, as you said, those threads are by far the best place to keep up with new information if you want to know it asap, and have the time to spend reading them all day.

====DELETE===

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Originally Posted by Frost

You should bash him for it. Ketchup is a sin against nature; it and those who consume it should be erased from the earth.

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Holy shit, this too.

Yesssss.

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

People aren't worse players because of the gear they choose. They're worse because of how they play. Whms that don't do anything but cast cure, no matter how great the gear they have on are still bad Whms.

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I'm all for out of the box thinking.

However.

The tools chosen to get the job done do have an impact. You can't hammer a nail into a 2x4 with a sponge.