Job Vision: Watch paint dry

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

SMN tanks?! More likely than you think :O! SMN/MNK GO!

lol but no... not really.

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SMN/PLD or GTFO

level a new job, problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Remind me again why it is:

If you want to play a real melee, change job.

but not

If you want to play a real healer, change job.


Obviously you are just randomly picking your facts to create your own truth, when in fact melee and /WHM are two sides of the same coin.

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I'll tell you exactly why this is the case and yes, admittedly it's a fault of FFXI's game design.

From /WHM you get Cure I through Cure IV. That's the same amount of healing prowess that any non-WHM Main gets. You also get more than enough Healing skill from the sub, and base MND, to hit the soft cap on all four of those cures. So with a /WHM sub on any job that has native MP, you're basically a mini RDM/SCH/PLD, and if you wear any compatible +MP or +Cure potency or +MND gear, your cures can stack up pretty well. Your cures will never "miss", either.

Melee wise, though, you are very much bound by your main job's prowess. You cannot feasibly, say, go WHM/MNK, equip Trainee Scissors, and expect to hit anything let alone deal relevant damage, since your combat skill is so incredibly significant to your ability to wield and swing the weapon. Even among main jobs, you don't see competent Warriors trying to main Dagger or Polearm instead of axes because the skill deficit just plain hurts too much (that and the severely nerfed weapon selection of course).

Even more relevant example: you never see Dragoons maining Staff. Dragoons are infinitely more capable of wielding a staff well than a Summoner - they get Accuracy Bonus job traits, and their combat skill at 90 is only 10 points below Summoner's. It's just not worth the severe cut to your attack and accuracy compared to a primary weapon.

Puppetmasters are permanently hobbled by their weak h2h skill cap, and it's 6 points higher than SMN's final Staff cap. Even when PUP's skill cap was raised from ~C to B+ it was still considered a bit of a slap in the face, since B+ is still a whopping 13 points behind an A- weapon - that's 13 attack and ~12 accuracy lost.

And that's all before even considering the actual Melee jobs' exclusive gear (SMN maxes out at 23 haste from gear, EVERY dedicated melee can hit 26 comfortably alongside other relevant stats) and job abilities/traits which can't be subbed.


Oh, and if you want to play a real healer, play WHM. Cure V&VI really are THAT important. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Oh, and if you want to play a real healer, play WHM. Cure V&VI really are THAT important. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

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Quoted for the absolute truth. I love hitting my 2600 Cure VIs. On Darksday too. Outside Abyssea.

Another thought I had, in addition to SE's vision example:

Job Ability: Urgent Plea
(Stores 1 charge per minute, up to 5)
Allows the Summoner to activate any Bloodpact:Ward, even if another avatar is currently active.
* Doubles the MP cost of the ward.
* The avatar will still appear graphically, temporarily, but will not have a real Pet-style presence in the battle.

There are probably a few technical hurdles to overcome with this idea due to the avatar not being physically present, such as targeting and range of the ward (I'd make the target be the center of the range) but it allows the Wards to be used more freely, while keeping the Rages separate, perhaps using the proposed ability in SE's vision statement to lower rage timers in exchange for higher costs.

Clearly the idea needs refining, but it has potential.

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Originally Posted by AyinDygra

Job Ability: Urgent Plea
(Stores 1 charge per minute, up to 5)
Allows the Summoner to activate any Bloodpact:Ward, even if another avatar is currently active.
* Doubles the MP cost of the ward.
* The avatar will still appear graphically, temporarily, but will not have a real Pet-style presence in the battle.

There are probably a few technical hurdles to overcome with this idea due to the avatar not being physically present, such as targeting and range of the ward (I'd make the target be the center of the range) but it allows the Wards to be used more freely, while keeping the Rages separate, perhaps using the proposed ability in SE's vision statement to lower rage timers in exchange for higher costs.

Clearly the idea needs refining, but it has potential.

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I like where that's going. It basically mimics how summons act in other FFs, adds to what SMN can do, and I can think of no negatives from it.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

And that's all before even considering the actual Melee jobs' exclusive gear (SMN maxes out at 23 haste from gear, EVERY dedicated melee can hit 26 comfortably alongside other relevant stats) and job abilities/traits which can't be subbed.

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SMN gets its CHOICE of: 15% Haste, 30-50 Acc, 30 Att, 22 MAB (Cata), 24% DA, ??% Crit Rate

No subjob, not counting any gear. I consider all of these to be relevant melee stats.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

SMN gets its CHOICE of: 15% Haste, 30-50 Acc, 30 Att, 22 MAB (Cata), 24% DA, ??% Crit Rate

No subjob, not counting any gear. I consider all of these to be relevant melee stats.

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Yet even with all those at a SMN's disposal(forgetting the fact they're party buffs), you can only manage a fraction of a DD's damage.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Yet even with all those at a SMN's disposal(forgetting the fact they're party buffs), you can only manage a fraction of a DD's damage.

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LOL. I know you know of the buffs Raz. Everyone told you to level BRD when you told them that cycling them is a good use of a party slot. Do you honestly believe, based on Tag's post, that he has no knowledge of SMN's buffs? Or, do you agree with me, that he is purposely ignoring them like so many people seem to do?

Yes, they are party buffs, meaning they are more powerful than just job traits. Chances that anti-melee will admit that? I'm guessing zero.

Voidwatch released a lot of armor with Spheres, party buffs that DON'T buff the wearer. Everything that SMN does works better than that.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

LOL. I know you know of the buffs Raz. Everyone told you to level BRD when you told them that cycling them is a good use of a party slot. Do you honestly believe, based on Tag's post, that he has no knowledge of SMN's buffs? Or, do you agree with me, that he is purposely ignoring them like so many people seem to do?

Yes, they are party buffs, meaning they are more powerful than just job traits. Chances that anti-melee will admit that? I'm guessing zero.

Voidwatch released a lot of armor with Spheres, party buffs that DON'T buff the wearer. Everything that SMN does works better than that.

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I thought you only played with BSTs?

>implying that actual DDs won't get those buffs anyway with or without an SMN giving them

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I thought you only played with BSTs?

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And Korpg thinks I claim to outdamage Ukon WAR.
And Raz thinks I die against everything I fight.
And GG thinks every WAR has been surgically attached to a DNC, WHM, and BRD in some sort of human centipede.

People think stupid things.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

And Korpg thinks I claim to outdamage Ukon WAR.
And Raz thinks I die against everything I fight.
And GG thinks every WAR has been surgically attached to a DNC, WHM, and BRD in some sort of human centipede.

People think stupid things.

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Stop comparing yourself to real DDs, at all, and this issue won't arise.
IDK how much you die, but if you play with BSTs I doubt you would die often, since it would destroy the purpose of pet burning if you were meleeing lolol.
My WAR did have a surgically attached DNC, WHM, and BRD for about 2 months.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Stop comparing yourself to real DDs, at all, and this issue won't arise.

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That was GG, not me. It's all a big fat lie told by Korpg. The WAR butthurt is real.

Just blacklist dallas and all your SMN thread troubles will go away.

You have got to include me, Korpg, Raz and Leon to remove the discussions completely though.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I like where that's going. It basically mimics how summons act in other FFs, adds to what SMN can do, and I can think of no negatives from it.

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x2 seems a bit too high to me. It means for example that tossing out Earthen Armor costs like 200+ MP, while a BRD does it for free. It is a bit too large difference in my opinion. I'd find it more fair if we tweaked the cost the opposite way. Using this Ability would make a Ward cost 100% its cost (same as it costs now) and using it without the ability would give us half cost wards (50% of currrent cost).

And yea, this is according to my godmode plans. Since a SMN paying half price on pacts, will be able to out-melee WARs, out-tank PLDs, out-buff BRDs, out-run THFs, and even fly.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

You have got to include me, Korpg, Raz and Leon to remove the discussions completely though.

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Don't Blist me.:(

But at least if Dallas was gone they would only be useful discussion, not wild trolling.

I agree, in retrospect, that x2 is too much. (it's all part of the refinement thing I said), and I've read plenty of threads comparing SMN buffs to others, and how they're not balanced cost-wise with other mages, which I agree with. It's like Summoner pays a ton more MP for everything because they have MP to spend. I never play Summoner, but it doesn't look fair to me.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

And Korpg thinks I claim to outdamage Ukon WAR.

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Didn't you claim that your staff is only 7.5% DoT damage less than an Ukon? Without avatar damage included, basically meaning that you outdamage an Ukon? Why, yes you did

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and how they're not balanced cost-wise with other mages, which I agree with

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Cost doesn't have much to do with it. Hastega is an MP saver over casting haste on 6 people. The problem is casting different buffs from different avatars is a huge pain.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Cost doesn't have much to do with it. Hastega is an MP saver over casting haste on 6 people. The problem is casting different buffs from different avatars is a huge pain.

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Speaking of Hastega, it is silly that it had to be hastega to begin with. Calling it something else would have allowed it to stack, and made SMN one of the most popular support jobs 2003. Instead we aren't even considered support jobs at 2011.

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Calling it something else would have allowed it to stack

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lots of things with different names give the same effect. Refresh, every drink under the sun, FoV buff all want a word with you.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Just blacklist dallas and all your SMN thread troubles will go away.

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Not quite true unless everyone does it. I blisted him about 5 pages ago, but every time he posts, the post under it quotes him >.>

The same people that agreed with me about ignoring him to stop feeding the troll are still quoting and arguing with him. /sigh

Speaking of hastega, why is that still our only unique buff?

I mean honestly, there's no real good reason to bar Accession + Haste at this point. If SMN is the only reason SE can come up with, then that just shows how much trouble SMN is really in.


Separate timers would be great, but there's a lot of potential for abuse there, especially in abyssea where MP isn't an issue.


I'd love to see avatar's stats scale up with summoning skill instead of just job level for one thing. How about fixing it so avatars don't lose TP when not actively engaged with an enemy? The list just goes on really...

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Do you really think they're just making stuff up with no intention of actually doing it? Did you know that many of these abilities/spells already have animations in the DAT files as of the most recent update?

This is a result of funny story telling and the telephone game. They NEVER said this. They said we were getting 2 new avatars, and that they wanted us to be able to keep our summons out more. Two seperate things, and both of them were achieved. They said NOTHING about the new avatars specifically being the ones we'd summon longer.

They used the word "example" to say that the exact changes are not set in stone, e.g. they could change. I won't blame you for being skeptical, as SMN tends to get the short end of the stick, but these changes are backed up by new data in the data files.

Finally, to reinforce this further, they would not name SPECIFIC avatars if they were not going to implement them.

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{*Multiple example adjustments follow each job vision. These are provided merely to illustrate the general direction we intend to take each job—actual adjustments implemented may differ from what is written.}

This was also in that announcement in bright red writing. Not saying it won't happen, just pointing out that even SE is saying it isn't written in stone. I hope that they do implement the changes they *envisioned,* not only as a SMN, but as every other job I play.

The point in telling certain jobs not to melee is so that enemies are not fed godly amounts of tp with least amounts of damage. i.e. If your melee smn/rdm/whm/blm...etc...you are hitting for very little damage per staff swing. You aren't doing much damage at all. At the same time though, you are feeding TP to the mob which allows it to use those horrible JAs available to mobs called *my party just wiped.* Hence the reason most people get bent out of shape over mages meleeing.

On a personal note, I don't really care one way or the other. When I am in a party or alliance I try to play my job as the situation calls for whether I am a mage or not. It simply all depends on what is most beneficial to my team, because to me the only reason to be on a team in the first place is to help, not hinder.

Elidani knows whats up.

Mages shouldn't melee in team play.

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This was also in that announcement in bright red writing. Not saying it won't happen, just pointing out that even SE is saying it isn't written in stone. I hope that they do implement the changes they *envisioned,* not only as a SMN, but as every other job I play.

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may

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The key word here is "may." They already have their ideas at this point, it's game balance or design/implementation problems that could change things, or input from the community. No, it's not set in stone, but clearly they have a plan laid out. But by all means, continue to play the semantics game.

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The point in telling certain jobs not to melee is so that enemies are not fed godly amounts of tp with least amounts of damage. i.e. If your melee smn/rdm/whm/blm...etc...you are hitting for very little damage per staff swing. You aren't doing much damage at all. At the same time though, you are feeding TP to the mob which allows it to use those horrible JAs available to mobs called *my party just wiped.*

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That's why you learn which mobs have "My party just wiped" and which ones don't and adjust your behavior accordingly. The best players are the ones who are able to adapt themeselves accordingly to changing circumstances. Things aren't as black and white as you portray them to be.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Elidani knows whats up.

Mages shouldn't melee in team play.

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And when you've made the perfect team, you'll notice healing on SMN is not needed. And we are right back on my initial post, watching paint dry as we do nothing. Melee isn't desired, Healing is pointless.

I agree with you when you got a crappy team though. Then you do not want mages to melee.

I never said it was black and white. I was simply stating that is the way most people play the game. As for meleeing on smn during a party, I have it pretty easy. The linkshell I am with is fairly laid back and we do w/e during Aby exp parties. During serious events we do what we need to to help the team as a whole. We don't usually have smn out unless we mean to use the avatars. I guess it helps when many of the members also play smn and whm. They understand the difference between the two. Personally I mostly soloed my smn to 66, because I refused to be a subpar whm. My point in stating the info about tp is because that is how it was explained to me a few years back when I asked the same question about why my mage isn't allowed to melee even though I can weild a weapon. I'm quite happy in the frontlines as my dancer or on the backline as my whm. SMN I simply prefer playing that as a soloist job or strictly during stress-free ls parties. It makes the game more fun if I am not stressed about being told how to play my job.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

I'll tell you exactly why this is the case and yes, admittedly it's a fault of FFXI's game design.

From /WHM you get Cure I through Cure IV. That's the same amount of healing prowess that any non-WHM Main gets. You also get more than enough Healing skill from the sub, and base MND, to hit the soft cap on all four of those cures. So with a /WHM sub on any job that has native MP, you're basically a mini RDM/SCH/PLD, and if you wear any compatible +MP or +Cure potency or +MND gear, your cures can stack up pretty well. Your cures will never "miss", either.

Melee wise, though, you are very much bound by your main job's prowess. You cannot feasibly, say, go WHM/MNK, equip Trainee Scissors, and expect to hit anything let alone deal relevant damage, since your combat skill is so incredibly significant to your ability to wield and swing the weapon. Even among main jobs, you don't see competent Warriors trying to main Dagger or Polearm instead of axes because the skill deficit just plain hurts too much (that and the severely nerfed weapon selection of course).

Even more relevant example: you never see Dragoons maining Staff. Dragoons are infinitely more capable of wielding a staff well than a Summoner - they get Accuracy Bonus job traits, and their combat skill at 90 is only 10 points below Summoner's. It's just not worth the severe cut to your attack and accuracy compared to a primary weapon.

Puppetmasters are permanently hobbled by their weak h2h skill cap, and it's 6 points higher than SMN's final Staff cap. Even when PUP's skill cap was raised from ~C to B+ it was still considered a bit of a slap in the face, since B+ is still a whopping 13 points behind an A- weapon - that's 13 attack and ~12 accuracy lost.

And that's all before even considering the actual Melee jobs' exclusive gear (SMN maxes out at 23 haste from gear, EVERY dedicated melee can hit 26 comfortably alongside other relevant stats) and job abilities/traits which can't be subbed.


Oh, and if you want to play a real healer, play WHM. Cure V&VI really are THAT important. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

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Why bother even having a smn or any variety of jobs for that matter? Just level whm and call it a day.

I must be in the minority on this, but I do not find SMN boring and I've been playing this game for a long time. I can understand the OP's point about "watching paint dry" between BP's but it *appears* that our timer limitation is going to be addressed in the near future. If we can get the timer down to 30 seconds, without it costing a ridiculous amount of extra MP, then I think the issue will be fairly well addressed. (By the issue, I mean being bored in between BP's. There are other issues that obviously need to be addressed.) Splitting the Blood Pacts into 3 or 4 categories would help even more so. I don't think that each BP should have its own timer or that each avatar should have separate timers. Splitting into damage - enfeebling - enhancing/healing would be nice. You could possibly break up the enhancing/healing into separate categories or split damage into physical and magical. Either would be a nice boost.

Everyone has their own idea of how SMN should play. Personally, I don't want to melee on my SMN. I don't want to nuke on my SMN. I have BLM, SCH and RDM for that. I'm perfectly fine with providing support healing from /WHM, /RDM or /SCH and if more healing is required I'll switch to a healing class. I play SMN to *summon* That is all I'm concerned with when I put on that pointy horn. I'm cautiously optimistic that the coming updates will allow me to focus on that.

Now there are plenty of other issues that need to be addressed. Avatar DOT, BP delay (buff hopefully incoming), avatar's favor, Ward potency, and I'm sure I've forgotten others. These are the areas I'd like to see SE focus on.

I also don't want to have to sub WAR to give my avatars double attack. They should have it naturally. I shouldn't have to sub BLM to improve nuking damage. They should already be powerful. Our subjob should be used to provide utility to the party and ourselves (MP recovery, survivability, etc). SE decided not to give us native spells and magic skills and that may have been a poor design decision. I don't see it changing after almost 10 years and I'm fine with that.

And perhaps it's because FFX was my first Final Fantasy game but I liked that the Aeons were all unique, not just in their elements/attacks but also their stats. (I know. I'm a late comer to the series!!) I can definitely see the advantage of all the avatars being roughly the same as it allows you more flexibility in which avatar you use. If Shiva was clearly the best nuking avatar, then there would be less reasons to use Garuda or Titan for that purpose. Even acknowledging that, I still wouldn't mind a little variation. Fenrir, Carbuncle and Diabolos have some nice unique quirks. I'd like the other avatars to as well. This could be done by giving them their respective avatar's favors and removing the penalties or just giving Shiva extra tiers of the MAB trait or Garuda a higher evasion rating. Again, that is just a personal wish of mine :)

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

And when you've made the perfect team, you'll notice healing on SMN is not needed. And we are right back on my initial post, watching paint dry as we do nothing. Melee isn't desired, Healing is pointless.

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You forget the whole reason why the SMN is there. They are there for 2 things: Deal TP-less damage and to hold a pop set.

Does dealing TP-less damage worthless? Heck no. SMN is the only job that can do it. And holding a pop set is more important than wiping a party/alliance because you feel like whacking a mob. But you don't have to stand back and do damage from afar on most stuff. Go ahead and melee on Aquarius. Just don't melee on Isgebind (seen too many people wipe on that Dragon because they had too many melees on it. That dragon is not zergable yet).

I agree with you when you got a crappy team though. Then you do not want mages to melee.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Neonii

Why bother even having a smn or any variety of jobs for that matter? Just level whm and call it a day.

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I dunno. Blame Abyssea with its 2-3k HP totals and NMs that can thwack players for 1-3k damage on a whim. Keep up with that damage using only Cure IV and don't die in the process from all the enmity!

Cure IV on one of 2 mage combinations that has no native Fast Cast: SMN/WHM, BLM/WHM. Worst cure whore ever.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Cure IV on one of 2 mage combinations that has no native Fast Cast: SMN/WHM, BLM/WHM. Worst cure whore ever.

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I know it's almost as bad as meleeing on the weakest class in the ga.....

Meleeing as RDM, BLM, or SCH? No, much more pathetic than that. 23% haste (mage) versus 26% haste (melee) is much closer than Cure 4 is to Cure 6.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Meleeing as RDM, BLM, or SCH? No, much more pathetic than that. 23% haste (mage) versus 26% haste (melee) is much closer than Cure 4 is to Cure 6.

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I was talking about SMN, it's ok it's forgivable for you to forget it(seeing as you don't have it leveled). Outside Abyssea Cure IV does fine. There's lots more factors that go into making an effective melee than haste, if you ever level a job you'll learn this. Don't worry we were all new once.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Meleeing as RDM, BLM, or SCH? No, much more pathetic than that. 23% haste (mage) versus 26% haste (melee) is much closer than Cure 4 is to Cure 6.

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RDM can cap haste, which is a big deal with marches. Although I agree, the difference between Cure IV and VI is just... well Cure VI is 300% better.