Player Notice: Naakual Loot System

It's also possible they receive a boost to damage dealt when colonization level is low, and/or that they get stronger the more adds that are out or something (See: Grannus and its 500HP Regen and mega blaze spikes when all of the adds are out).

I haven't really talked to Prothescar about how the group was handling the fight. The reason I mention Grannus is because it seems like a lot of things in Meeble Burrows were sort of "beta tests" or appropriations of mechanics they were working on in Adoulin.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

I would rather have the monster actually be designed in a way so that these strategies are considered rather than them forcing it a certain way because of the way the reward system works. This isn't about making the game easy or hard, it's about the reward system being retarded.

It's the difference between:
A) Making a monster take -90% DT unless you magic burst and
B) Making a monster take -90% DT to pretty much everything but all BLMs get no reward if you don't constantly magic burst it

One is a monster designed in a way to encourage players to play a certain way. The other is just laziness.

If they want people to fight it at a certain pace and easy way to do it is do exactly what they did with Cerberus Seether and have it build up DT, except make it based on how rapidly it's taking damage and make the DT disperse over time. For bonus points make the higher DT give it STP+100 or whatever. That's a way to make people think, "okay, zerging is a really dumb idea".

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That is one way to make people think that way, yes, but as also stated prior this is a fight based on colonization efforts meaning it is a server wide effort to make the fight easier. Based on the fact that the content hasn't been out long enough to see how big of a difference there is with higher colonization rates can you fully appreciate the fight? Can you say that after 2 weeks there is enough information about a fight, that has only been done a handful of times with low colonization rates has been evaluated enough?

I don't see OP's warning as a significant flaw so much as a heads up to those who have yet to do it that you can't approach the fight with the wrong mind set. I also see the OP giving a good deal of information that prepares groups with enough know how that until either SE verifies this as working as intended, or is actually a flaw, that taking a steady pace is preferable to doing it with impatience. It is quite possible that stored evaluations aren't working properly in reives as I've seen even in the open world ones that it doesn't always activate.

It is interesting that so many will focus on the one detail so heavily rather than seek more information or see just how much of an impact over all various Ionis/Colonization efforts change the battle. Aside from this how much information is there about the fight? Types of attacks, effects of the attacks, resist rates of enfeeble or stuns? I've been looking for that information and I'm still not finding enough of it to get the full picture. I'm mainly just seeing people saying how stupid one thing is about it: the reward issuance....per the usual.

If you want more information then here you go:

-Resisted Paralyze/Slow/Elegy but landed after several attempts
-Did not resist stun from a BRD/BLM
-Possesses many AoE attacks, the ones that I remember the most were:

Vespine Hurricane: Conal AoE damage in the realm of 500~750.
Stinger Volley: Wide conal AoE that added a 50/tic poison on top of 500~750 damage to all who were hit by it.
Droning Whirlwind: Heavy AoE damage in the realm of 750~1250.
Mandibular Lashing: Conal AoE damage that significantly reduced maximum HP (down to 5%), reduced by PDT.

It had several regular melee attacks that were AoE as well, making its TP moves much more dangerous. With a few people on it, it spammed TP moves incessantly, as with any other monster. Effectively it's a slow and steady type of fight, but the risk is never completely alleviated. All it takes is one TP move followed by one of its melee attacks (some of which hit me for over 800 damage, and I was wearing a hybrid PDT set almost the entire time that I was engaged on the monster) to knock you out.

This what I assume to be glitch with the reward system needs to be looked at and people need to know about it, which is the entire point of my post. I don't want people wasting their Bayld and hours of their lives fighting these NMs only to not be rewarded due to a failure in the loot system. If you have a problem with that, by all means you're entitled to that opinion. Personally I find no issues with the pace or the balance of the fight itself, only the poor implementation of how rewards are distributed when you die, possibly due to a bug.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

If you want more information then here you go:

.......

This what I assume to be glitch with the reward system needs to be looked at and people need to know about it, which is the entire point of my post. I don't want people wasting their Bayld and hours of their lives fighting these NMs only to not be rewarded due to a failure in the loot system. If you have a problem with that, by all means you're entitled to that opinion. Personally I find no issues with the pace or the balance of the fight itself, only the poor implementation of how rewards are distributed when you die, possibly due to a bug.

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Yes, that does help considerably as I've been looking at various resources that haven't updated the mob or any info associated to it as of yet. To clarify I wasn't nullifying the possibility of it being a bug, more so to address the fact people are focusing too much on the drop reward (a reoccurring theme in any newer content as of late) rather than reasons why SE would do such a thing intentionally. Remember, these are the same people constantly on the "give and take away" theme all for the sake of "balance."

I wouldn't be surprised if a rep pops in and says that ever so aggravating phrase "Working as intended" or other nonsense that they didn't intend for the fights to be done often at low colonization rates. It has already been stated that the decrease in colonization rate beyond 25% has been found to be too high and is planned for adjustment. Given that the fight can be made easier as it goes up I am still skeptical and my glass will remain half empty until it is confirmed as a system bug. Seen too many flip-flops with how SE does things over the last decade to be anything but pessimistic and that this was done intentionally.

Edit: For sake of tag search reason I've updated tags for 'bug?' and 'wildskeeper reive'

Sounds more like people need to invest in coming up with some real strategies that don't involve pouring heavy DD's in and hoping for the best...

I don't think the solution to every problem is "change this completely to suit my liking!"

Sounds like they've realized that EXP loss isn't an acceptable punishment for Death anymore -- I think reducing your rewards based on your number of deaths makes sense, though I think resetting to 0 might be a bit harsh. (Reducing contributions to 50% upon death, maybe.)

The bigger problem sounds it comes from the way SE is balancing these fights. There's no reason a mob with AoE auto attacks should spam TP moves and frankly I'm tired of their answer to difficulty in a fight being "MAKE IT SPAM AOE, LULZ."

If they want people to use strategies other than zerg, they need to make monsters that are difficult by legitimate standards rather than abusing the aged, faultiness of the game's system (damage absorption/2hr activation tied to TP moves you barely have any warning or real ability to avoid triggering because of the system's slowness) and mass draining healer MP (TP spam and AoE whoring.)

Additionally, AoE's should not deal 100% damage to all targets. If a mob is going to spam AoE moves, they should deal maximum damage only to the primary target and all secondary targets should receive less damage (in the case of abilities, not spells.)

I'm not really liking the sound of this, but I think my displeasure has less to do with the punishment and more the fact that the game's system promotes and endorses the crime (semi-reckless zerg tactics) in question. Plus, it sounds like you guys were being decently cautious, so that annoys me more that they aren't even trying to reward people putting thought in.

EDIT:

Pardon if my post reads terrible. :/ Spent all weekend grinding gear (wtf at the 6 hours it took me to get COR feet... especially considering it took less time to get 8/8+6/6 for +2...) -- I basically went from camping to build my Empy weapon to driving to work with 0 sleep.

Basically i was trying to say:
1. I think the negative reward system is a good idea, but think it shouldn't be a constant reset. It either needs to be a reduction system (each death reduces by 25-50% contribution that you can regain) or it needs to be a Monster Hunter style "life" system and your reward is capped based on your number of deaths (100% for 0 deaths, 80% for 1 death, etc etc etc, until 15% minimum for 5-6 deaths or 0% for an excessive number.)

2. SE needs to re-evaluate how they promote strategic thought in fights. Monsters should not be designed to deal thousands of points (in excess of 3,000-4,000 damage across a party, or 6,000+ to an alliance) such that it forces the rapid spamming of cures in a fashion the game's system won't even allow. Difficulty should come from having to learn the nuances of a fight, not from twitch mechanics and spamming. TP Spam and AoE whoring are two "difficulty boosters" SE needs to move away from if they want to cull the Zerg climate.

3. A 3+ hour fight sounds good to me, but it should be something that's actually engaging, challenging in an interesting and honest way and doesn't needlessly punishing people for trial and error such that they end up walking away with absolutely nothing for their efforts.

I really do believe that the Monster TP system needs to be evaluated -- Subtle Blow seems like an absolutely useless stat, especially when they have changed the climate of the game's damage to focus so much on multi-hits.

Last I checked, games were self-regulating in punishing you for sucking by virtue of the fact that if you lose, you don't get to fight it anymore. That is, if your party wipes, you get a game over and you have to start from your last save. What's happening here is basically the equivalent of you automatically getting a game over whenever you let Tellah die because his HP is awful and he dies to everything. Well okay, more like if you let Tellah die during the bosses' "not before I die asshole" attacks I guess?

If they want it to be punishing to people for playing poorly, just make your progress reset if it goes idle or whatever. Death of a few members is inevitable in big fights like this and it makes zero sense to limit player strategizing in a way like this.

Also, punishing individuals for dying just doesn't make sense, because certain jobs will be in danger more often than others, so death is a bad measurement by which to measure whether the group, as a whole, is doing well or not- there's been plenty of strategies in the past that involved people sacrificing themselves/kiting/etc. The way it currently works is that you could actually have a perfect run for 99% of the fight and then not get any drops because you got killed in the last rush of its HP. I find it hard to believe that this is anything other than a bug/oversight.

That isn't to say you can't punish people for dying/taking too long- after all, lots of other games do this through a ranking system (S/A/B...) that goes down whenever someone dies. The question is what should that affect? They did this to some extent in assault, like if you didn't save every hostage you wouldn't get full points and such. Nobody really complained about that.

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

Sounds more like people need to invest in coming up with some real strategies that don't involve pouring heavy DD's in and hoping for the best...

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I deeply agree, but, On a fight like this, as you mentioned in your post... Sh*ts AoE happy (Something i distinctly remember SE saying they "Toned down" on... nice), AoE's do redic damage, and they're still riding that "HNM Normal Hits = TP moves/Possible AoE/Added Effects" wagon that was introduced with Iron Giants...

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The bigger problem sounds it comes from the way SE is balancing these fights. There's no reason a mob with AoE auto attacks should spam TP moves and frankly I'm tired of their answer to difficulty in a fight being "MAKE IT SPAM AOE, LULZ."

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I really wish this would die TBH, now they've given normal enemies this effect... This is just heinously annoying... (I.E Matamata/Normal Mantis).

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If they want people to use strategies other than zerg, they need to make monsters that are difficult by legitimate standards rather than abusing the aged, faultiness of the game's system (damage absorption/2hr activation tied to TP moves you barely have any warning or real ability to avoid triggering because of the system's slowness) and mass draining healer MP (TP spam and AoE whoring.)

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I agree, its increasingly difficult to make truly challenging content though with the current out-dated mechanics of this game. I know they can have "Colision Damage", Ixion does it, They could make more enemies similar to Ixion... a Straight forward fight, Has its quirks, Difficult but possible to avoid damage, and less rediculous "2,000+ DMG AOE +800HP/tic BIO/Stun/Curse/ST20" that they're throwing on everything as "Challenge".

I like these NMs, and Reives, cause honestly, its making PLD more shiny and wanted... but when you design a NM to be a server-wide event, What do you expect... 1 Tank and 49 DD/healers/Support? Sh*t just doesn't work. These fights are a flaw in design mostly because you can't co-ordinate 40-50 People into a coherent pattern/strategy, especially with all the adds flying around.

I love the idea of the fight, Its just... SE may have overestimated peoples ability to listen, learn, and not be retarded lol.

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Additionally, AoE's should not deal 100% damage to all targets. If a mob is going to spam AoE moves, they should deal maximum damage only to the primary target and all secondary targets should receive less damage (in the case of abilities, not spells.)

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They supposedly did this around the time Botulus/Ig-Alima were introduced, Though I call BS cause I can't tell any difference, Mantis/etc Hit me for up to 400 damage a pop rather its direct or splash damage... Then again, this could have specifically applied to only those two (Bot/Ig)... I think Normal Attack "AoE" damage should be 100% on main, 30-40% On all others... TP moves are dangerous enough without it murdering everyone in range by using a normal attack.

I do really really really want this "ZERG ALL THE THINGS" mindset FFXI has to stfu and die, but SE doesn't realize the more they push 80,000 DMG AoEs down our throat, the more "ZERG" wins, because no ones going to sit and wait for this thing to spit out TP move after TP move after TP move with 1 PLD while 2-3 DD run in and SA WS or Chi Blast when they can just PD/Full Buff/Zerg it and likely still win.

Honestly, These are just some small suggestions i have for SE when it comes to challenging fights.

1) Make AoE's crippling, But not killing - Inflict Dispel/Amnesia/Slow/Paralyze/Terror, but limit the DMG by these to about 300-400. People might think this is annoying, and it will be if you're zerging it... But if SE wants to limit Zerg mindset, You need to inflict these abilities more and less "Game Over.button" AoEs.

2) Expand the "Super" effects. (Mute, Etc). Add "Stop", a Super slow thats uneraseable and inflicts a near-Weakened status slow effect. (Make a limit on its duration, ~30 seconds). This should not effect Magic recast timers (so it wont also super-nerf the PLD Tank, which is who you /want/ tanking). I would also suggest a "Cripple", a Super-Paralyze thats un-paralyna-able, Duration ~30sec same as the Stop... Make it near ~80% Paralyze. For this.
*Bonus to this. These effects could only effect enemies that are not the Current target, Inflicting the Current Target, instead, with a Normal Slow/Paralyze. I know the ability to distinguish between targets and non-targets is possible...

3) Add things like Odin's Zantes/Ultima's Countdown. If the NMs all had a "Super move" they could use, but people could avoid... it'd be more strategic than "ROLL THE DICE, 6? 4,000 DMG AND DOOM FOR EVERYONE STILL ALIVE!". Odin and Ultima had these super moves, but people could learn to avoid them... This is strategy, and it works. but spice it up. In FFXIV, you have things in the arena that can be used in battle... Fire on the ground, Garuda's Pillars, so on.

4) Add Things in the battle to weaken the boss. IDK if the Wildskeeper Reives do this, But Perhaps instead of just enemies, there could be targets around the enemy that will weaken them in different ways, Kinda like CoP-Dynamis Bosses. Think with Colkhaab...

There's 4 Nests around her, Destroying a Nest will reduce her power in some way.

Nest A = Lowered Attack + Terror on Colkhaab for ~8 sec
Nests B = Lowered Defense + Terror for ~8 sec
nest C = Lowered Magic Attack + Terror ~8 sec
Nest D = Lowered M.def + Terror ~8 sec

They can respawn every 3-5 minutes, each one nerfs the boss, and Terrors for a short duration (not super long and they arent' constantly up so it wont be a VW/Zerg situation). A 5 Second terror will give DD's enough time to run in SA > WS and get out, this could give a "Window" of damage for the DD, while the Tank keeps hate the rest of the fight, and the DD go back to defeating the Nests for their window of damage.

This would give a PLD a strong reason to be a main tank, they are fare less likely to get floored, and the DD Can all team up on a Nest, then run in WS the boss and go back to the nests, with the terror they dont have to be afraid of DMG, and you still need someone on the NM, this will make the fight easier, and a bit more involved, and lower the risk of death all around.

You could also make it so killing the enemies in the Arena will occasionally temporarily weaken the boss. For instance

5% Chance to Terror for ~5 Seconds.
10% Chance to Slow(50%) for ~1minute (Unique effect that Stacks with other forms)
10% Chance to Paralyze (25%~30%) for ~1minute.
10% Chance to Gravity (II potency) for ~1minute

This could be accompanied by a "The (monster) has been afflicted with (Ailment", This gives players a stronger reason to kill the adds rather than sleep them. The Enemies in the battlefield could also drop "Spirit Pyre", which could give each person in the battlefield a Temp item, like

Lucid Potion I~III
Lucid Ether I~III
Dragon Fruit Au Lait
Scroll of Instant Stoneskin/Reraise
Dusty Elixir
Lucid Elixir
Lucid Wings I
Dusty Wing
Stalwarts Tonic
Ascetic's Tonic
Champions Tonic
Braver's Drink
Fanatic's/fools Tonic (not drink)

Now, the Spirit Pyre would say, have a ~5-10% chance to spawn, and give everyone just 1 Random temp item, again, to prevent the more or less "ZERG IT" mindset of VW, which i think was still a good idea, and Temp Items are really helpful, but by not giving us a near unlimited supply, they retain a more tactical use rather than a "CHUG EM ALL" use they have in VW or Abyssea.

Lastely, I think in additional to adding more "Cripple but not kill" AoEs, ST20, Doom, and Death should be flat out removed from most/all TP Moves in the new zones. These aren't strategic and are just cheap/Kill-buttons.

ST20 Is just Bullsh*t as its pretty much instant-death for even a PLD if it lasts more than 10 seconds, Doom is annoying, but acceptable i suppose, Death can suck it >_>, Nothing is more cheap and uncreative than a "I win" button.

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

Sounds more like people need to invest in coming up with some real strategies that don't involve pouring heavy DD's in and hoping for the best...

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We did figure out an alternate strategy that's pretty easy albeit time consuming!

A three hours battle should not be the trend for this game.... 30-60 mnts type of events are more than plenty and it should be the norm. Are they seriously asking for another negative coverage on this game - after that godawful fiasco that is Pandemonium Warden?

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Originally Posted by Asymptotic

We did figure out an alternate strategy that's pretty easy albeit time consuming!

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Yeah, and I don't think that's fair to you guys.

I think the game should be designed where good strategy is efficient at reducing difficulty and increasing speed without having to be all about spamming the highest damage possible. Procs were an interesting way of moving towards this, but SE's methodology behind it was cartoonish at best.

Al'tiaeu mobs are what I think of for clever, interesting methods of adding diverse, challenging and interesting mobs. (The mouth guys, forget their names.)

To me, a complex and interesting boss fight should incorporate all of what SE as had so far in game, here's an example of what I'd want a fight to be like.

Mob Type: Gigas (for the example, we'll call him Gigas Rex, 2x the size of the average Gigas)

HP: 1,000,000 / 100,000 x4 / 50,000 x2 (explained below)
Job: Warrior / Monk / Geomancer / Dragoon

The Fight starts off with Gigas Rex in full body armor (-70% PDT) and wielding two Great Axes. During this phase his auto attacks (Delay around 400, each arm swings independently) deal conal AoE damage (180 degrees, each arm being 90) and he can attack two different targets. Two Tanks are required to keep him from using "Gigas Boomerang" with which ever arm isn't being tanked (heavy AoE damage based on a target's distance = Farther is more damage.)

During this phase, your goal is to destroy his axes and eat away at his armor. Physical stuns (Weapon Bash, Shield Bash, DNC's stun, Shoulder Tackle, etc) and Crits have high chance to chip the weapon, each chip reduces the -PDT the weapons have and once you deal 10,000 to an arm he stops attacking with it for this phase. He can be damaged himself the entire fight but his armor gives him heavy -PDT. Ranged attacks, DRG jumps or NIN and THF auto attacks/ws from behind deal damage directly to his armor (goal is 50,000. AA's and WS can only deal damage to lower body armor, ranged and jumps deal damage to upper body armor.)

His TP moves are all on timers like JAs and begin counting down when you enter the fight:

3 minutes - King's Cleave (180 AoE damage based on the health of the Axes. Can do up towards 3,000 damage if the axes are unchipped, each chip greatly lowers damage and the move suffers specifically against Defense Bonus and Magic Defense Bonus traits.)
5 Min - Counter-Regicide (All targets beyond
8 Min - King's Guard Summon (Summons 4 Goblin Kingsmiths who begin repairing his armor. They do not attack unless their respective section of armor is 100% HP or they are attacked first.)
10 Min - Tyrannical Howl (Regens 100,000 HP over 30 seconds. Can be countered by Dia III, Bio III, or Helix effects.)

Once both axes are destroyed he switches to Monk mode. He focuses his attention on one target, but can still attack any target within range randomly. Hate only matters for his TP moves as he will swipe and punch at any target in melee range. He suffers from increased magic damage during this phase, but begins to cast GEO buffs and debuffs at 200% potency.

New TP moves:

5 Minutes: The Prince's Favorite Toy, summons a large Automaton that behaves similarly to Ob. Susceptible to additional damage from Pets, but PUP Maneuvers have specific DoT/Debuff effects. Only uses this once.
8 Min - King's Guard Summon (See above)
Triggered ability: If he receives heavy magic based damage and still has armor, he will use "Call to Arms" summoning 2 Gigas Marksmen and 2 Gigas Cavalry. These mobs will immediately begin targeting targets outside of the NM's melee range. Cavalry suffer additional damage from Ranged Attacks. Marksmen suffer additional damage from melee attacks.
Triggered ability: Snarling Grapple -- If the NM's enmity shifts too quickly between multiple targets he will use a free arm to pick up one of the last main enmity holder. While grappled the character cannot be targeted and suffers 30/tic dot and cannot attack actions. Characters can be freed if he NM receives heavy piercing damage from behind (if his lower body armor is broken), but otherwise will preform a follow up ability.
---------- King's Crush: Grappled target is slammed into the ground, reducing their health to critical and stunned for 1 minute. Character can be targeted by allies, but not the NM until the stun wears of. All gear is stripped off of the character. They are still susceptible to AoE attacks or GEO DoT if not healed quickly.

Final Form: When all body armor is destroy and all adds are defeated, the NM begins to rage. Increasing his attack speed and attack power. He becomes immune to damage during his attacks and begins using Dragoon Jump abilities (with regular player cool downs.) He can only take damage to his head -- which is achieved by Ranged attacks, DRG jumps, or by stunning him as he begins to ready a Jump -- it may take up to 3 physical stuns to achieve this. When properly stunned, he falls forward for 1 minute and takes regular damage.

During this mode he will recycle his Grapple and summon abilities in the same way as above. At 1% life he has a 10% chance to stop receiving damage and disengage if the primary enmity holder is a Paladin or Warrior. He will use "King's Final Challenge", forcing everyone to disengage and drawing a greatsword. If the challenged character engages the NM will fight normally -- only the challenged character can engage or the challenge is forfeited and the bonus drops potentially gained are lost (nothing else is lost, but there would be some kind of rare G.Sword or craft material or something.) If any other character casts on the Challenged character or the NM, or the challenged character dies, he plunges the sword into the ground and continues to fight as normal until he dies.


Yeah, kind of out there, but I feel like stuff like that is actually well within the capacity of the game's system. They are just super lazy about adding in stuff. Something like this, you could add bonus drops for having all of the right jobs and doing everything properly -- making it fun and interesting and something that anyone could come and do on any job.