Hey look another suggestion Thread, Except this one is awesome.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Our experiences must differ, then. Every successful Endgame shell I know of laughs heartily at the concept of DDs sitting around using Regain and Meditate.

Ninja and Monk may have some defensive edges over Warrior and Dragoon, but none of these jobs are so frail that they would 'Make a mage's life miserable' by going in and taking some damage. Sure, I wouldn't be dumb enough to give 4-5 melees to a single WHM. Yeah, that would make their lives suck. But who the hell does that any more anyways?

If you have more than 4-5 Melees on a single monster anyways, that's just a total waste. Split people up and let 2-3 DDs handle things on one NM while 2-3 DDs handle another NM. Yes, I'm including Nin and Pld as DDs. Pld can hold its own fine with the proper setup. It's not going to outdamage a MNK, WAR, or NIN, but neither will most other jobs in the game. Expecting melees not to get hate is dumb when any DD worth his salt will cap hate in 1-2 WS (Including NIN and PLD).

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I agree wholeheartedly with your post. My linkshell runs things exactly the way you mentioned. Except for DD's going "full out" on mobs. We prefer to allow our tanks to build high emnity first, then we send DD's in, based on healer's MP, etc. And it really depends on the mob as well. When you are dealing with a seal NM that quite literally can be killed in less then a minute with 2-3 DD's, then no, there isn't a reason to take that kind of caution. I was referring to mobs that are much more difficult then that (i.e. Rani or Raja). When these mobs are fed a large amount of TP they wipe alliances. It's best to keep the TP feed to a minimum.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

the comments about pld being obsolete really only apply to Abyssea, they still seem to function just fine on the new 90-ish mobs outside. The big problem is that while other jobs all got huge atma boosts all of the paladin atmas seem to address survivability without addressing enmity. Either give pld an atma that puts their hate threshold through the roof (and that would be undesireable for anyone in a non-traditional meat shield build) or put some enmity down on the DD atmas; many of the casting atma builds seem to include a bit already. Give pld a JA that is an AoE Accomplice type thing, something! Paladin was clearly built with 1 major purpose, to blood tank, and the job has not been redefined for a different role. Make damage resisted off the max a mob could do cause a hate spike (i.e. your def being used will trigger hate). there's alot of ways to go that SE could explore.

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A Paladin with Apoc, RR, and GH atmas using Chant du Cynge will cap hate without issue. It's not like VIT atmas are doing jack anyways =/

Edit: For Rani or Raja, I wouldn't bring an alliance anyways. I mean, I suppose if people need the win they can sit on the sidelines, but that's not really counting towards the total number of people. Mnk, War, Nin, Whm, Brd, maybe a second Whm for safety can handle both mobs while proc'ing both Red and Blue and not having much trouble. If I wanted to be extra super careful I could just have either the Nin or War stand out of AoE range in case someone got ganked. Less is more, and it seems we agree on this, but there's really no point adding random DDs into the alli in the first place. Either they're leeching the win, which is fine, or they're fighting; middle ground there just makes things more complicated.

Personally I don't bother waiting for any particular person to build hate, since any DD I know is more than capable of handling themselves if they take hate (and since we'll all cap it anyways it will happen). The only thing that bothers me is this "DDs are squishy and die if the mob looks at them so DO NOT DO DAMAGE OR YOU WILL TAKE HATE AND MAKE US WIPE" sort of mentality I've been seeing all over the place. Heck, people in the Haste thread mentioned being unable to use the proper sub on their jobs because their linkshells will scream at them if they deal any damage. That is just plain stupid.

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Originally Posted by Vinc

Refresh my memory, why do we want there to be one tank (PLD)?

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noone said we do, but pld isn't really set-up to fulfil any other role well. What pld are asking for is to be in a viable role.

They could also change the mob behavior so it only changes target if something PASSES the current highest hate, not ties it. If a pld had already hit the hate cap then the mob would not change target as often as long as they keep thier hate from being reduced somehow.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

the comments about pld being obsolete really only apply to Abyssea, they still seem to function just fine on the new 90-ish mobs outside. The big problem is that while other jobs all got huge atma boosts all of the paladin atmas seem to address survivability without addressing enmity. Either give pld an atma that puts their hate threshold through the roof (and that would be undesireable for anyone in a non-traditional meat shield build) or put some enmity down on the DD atmas; many of the casting atma builds seem to include a bit already. Give pld a JA that is an AoE Accomplice type thing, something! Paladin was clearly built with 1 major purpose, to blood tank, and the job has not been redefined for a different role. Make damage resisted off the max a mob could do cause a hate spike (i.e. your def being used will trigger hate). there's alot of ways to go that SE could explore.

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An interesting concept. /approve.

Not sure how either one of these things would help pld.

I'm still lost as to why a PLD needs more Enmity anyways. Any Chant du Cygne PLD with proper atmas and gear can max their Enmity without any issues at all.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'm still lost as to why a PLD needs more Enmity anyways. Any Chant du Cygne PLD with proper atmas and gear can max their Enmity without any issues at all.

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They don't, and the only ones who don't seem to realize that is plds.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

noone said we do, but pld isn't really set-up to fulfil any other role well. What pld are asking for is to be in a viable role.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

or put some enmity down on the DD atmas; many of the casting atma builds seem to include a bit already

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Are you sure you're not asking for Pld to be the only tank? It looks like it to me. Pld should stay dead if it means another nerf for the rest of the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

A Paladin with Apoc, RR, and GH atmas using Chant du Cynge will cap hate without issue. It's not like VIT atmas are doing jack anyways =/

Edit: For Rani or Raja, I wouldn't bring an alliance anyways. I mean, I suppose if people need the win they can sit on the sidelines, but that's not really counting towards the total number of people. Mnk, War, Nin, Whm, Brd, maybe a second Whm for safety can handle both mobs while proc'ing both Red and Blue and not having much trouble. If I wanted to be extra super careful I could just have either the Nin or War stand out of AoE range in case someone got ganked. Less is more, and it seems we agree on this, but there's really no point adding random DDs into the alli in the first place. Either they're leeching the win, which is fine, or they're fighting; middle ground there just makes things more complicated.

Personally I don't bother waiting for any particular person to build hate, since any DD I know is more than capable of handling themselves if they take hate (and since we'll all cap it anyways it will happen). The only thing that bothers me is this "DDs are squishy and die if the mob looks at them so DO NOT DO DAMAGE OR YOU WILL TAKE HATE AND MAKE US WIPE" sort of mentality I've been seeing all over the place. Heck, people in the Haste thread mentioned being unable to use the proper sub on their jobs because their linkshells will scream at them if they deal any damage. That is just plain stupid.

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You sound like you play a DD job. Forgive me if I've assumed wrong. I sympathize actually. My 90's (that I actively play, are well geared, capped skills and I actually KNOW what i'm doing on that job) are MNK NIN THF BLM WHM DNC RNG. I am a lead tank in my linkshell, and yes, we evasion tank everything we kill. Evasion tanking though is touchy at best. While it can be easily done in Abyssea on the majority of everything there, hate degration happens very quickly, especially if you have DD's beating on the mob right along with you, and popping off high damage WS's. Hence the reason why we wait to send DD's into the fray. With a PLD tanking though, this scenario should greatly change, I agree with you.

Also let me say, that yes, a DD sitting on the sidelines (I do it on MNK all the time in Abyssea) is boring, and very much seems to be a waste of time. But once again, it all depends on the situation. A PLD tank tanking? Enough healers in the alliance to cover the DD's taking hate? In a low-man situation this is not always available. But again, I see your point.