Yeah but if the question is about something completely off topic or not on the current agenda, chances are it's not going to get an answer. You can't walk into a Pc repair shop and ask "how many calories are in a bagel?", sure someone may be able to answer it, but it's nothing to do with what they're working on, or plan to work on soon. Now imagine it was your job to forward questions, from the asker to this PC repair center, would you bother passing on that question?Quote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
They may be a hot topic, but I would say the communtity is spilt up 50/50 on them. Those of us saying spirits are fine, are saying it because... they are fine. An update to spirits is not needed, and I've yet to see one argument for spirits being adjusted that is a) worth the dev time it would take to implement, and b) could actually be a useful update.
It's not about stealing "question slots", it's about voicing my opinion(which is different to yours), so that SE sees ther is a sizeable portion of the SMN community that are happy with how spirits are, and would rather see real updates to the job. If we didn't post our differing opinions, SE could be dfolled into believing that SMNs's are 100% argeed on spirits needing a fix and waste time adjusting them in place of updates that will benefit SMN in very real ways.
Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner
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09-04-2011, 02:12 AMRazushu
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09-04-2011, 02:25 AMKorpgWatch out Raz, I already pointed that out to both Dallas and Mala and they both blacklisted me because my viewpoints are different than theirs. Having an opinion might get you blacklisted too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Razushu
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09-04-2011, 08:46 PMRazushuThat's never stopped me sharing my opinion before lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Korpg
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09-04-2011, 09:26 PMJerbob
I would also like to see update elemental spirits, but I think we/SE need to start thinking creatively to bring the spirits back into the fold. On the one hand they could just give them access to Tier V spells and be done with it - perhaps fun to play around with but still ultimately a niche-use pet at best.
Alternatively we could ask for the best of both worlds and have a system where we can use them in tandem with Avatars to fix some of the problems that plague our job. Thinking creatively! Perhaps something like this:
1. JA that lets us have an Avatar and free spirit summoned at the same time, with the spirit's spellcasting capped in level
2. Spirit doesn't move into range of mobs but casts spells and gains TP whenever our Avatar does, or BPs are used
3. Spirit TP can be used as a resource for new pet commands that do a variety of things like conserve MP, reduce BP delay, increase Ward potency, increase avatar Accuracy, give spikes/en- effects etc etc etc.
Building a new system like that would help solve the issue with spirits whilst keeping the focus on Avatars, give us the new tools we need to be competitive, makes meleeing Avatars more worthwhile, and has in-built limitations (TP gain, recast timer on new pet commands etc) that stop SE pulling the "overpowered" card or building some atrocity like Avatar's Favor again. Start the system at level 20 and scale it from there and Summoner's poor performance at low levels is fixed too.
I don't know, just an example, but the point still stands. Instead of "Give spirits more spells and give us a BP delay reduction JA", creatively blending all our needs into one system might be more fun, practical and effective. -
09-04-2011, 10:41 PMCovenant
I'm not really hot on ONLY spirits. I'm my thread, I tried to remind people of the original split between spirits and avatars(namely, spirits nukers and avatars physicals/elemental strikes). Then tried to explain how SE would need to backtrack both, all the way to lvl 1 to "fix" them.
Equating spirits to a single tier spell and having Summoners "move" beyond, much like a BLM moving beyond tier 1 or 2 of fire is disingenuous at best and outright lie at worst. Spirits automatically evolved as were intended by SE up until 75 and "forgotten". It was both easier( programming-wise) to place all the burden on avatars, since the casting system used for spirits were insanely complicated.
One of the worst arguments people like kkropg and ruzushu, used is the same one "Morpheus" used when explaining "the matrix" to "Neo"...namely, the element siphon/BATTERY argument. To use their analogy, BLM should be able to cast fire I ands gain back mp..because those are battery spells. THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, AS DOES HAVING SPIrITS SIMPLY FOR ELEMeNT SIPHON.
Whining over, SE should simply state their intentions. Using "body language" and assumptions, are never valid arguments for something. I'm still convinced, the problem is as I stated and others reflected, is that any changes introduced to normal spirits would also affect mob summoner spirits and random elementals. Imagine increasing a melee/def of a pet spirits and having the same done to those mob types. Mob pets would shoot up to IT and elementals to ITT.
This is why I support a tier 2 spirit, NM spirit, VNM spirit, or hybrid spirit suggestions. New programming for these pets won't change the "old" programming for old spirits. Plus, SE could eliminate enfeeb cycles...unless they introduced spirit ONLY newer tiers of enfeebs, such as poison 3 or slow 3. Once enfeeb cycles eliminated, spirits could forces on casting strong tier IV and above on par with an automaton. Factoring in normal recast timers for tier IV and above spells, with an increased recast timer of spirits, could limit over nuking issues people are afraid of.
After all another concern would be a summoner going down their elemental spirit list one by one and having each cast a single tier IV and above spell.
NONE of these spirit suggestions would limit an avatars growth, if as I suggested SE forces on "physical" Bloodpacts with a multi-effect use such as Ramuh's shocking strike...which is AoE, dmamge AND strong paralyze effect. A mix of avatars physical/effect strike would eliminate a spirits need to enfeeb and allow them to focus on MAGIC damage. Having spirits focus on MAGIC damage, would free up Bloodpacts and wards to be used for increased physical/multi-effect strikes. Having spirits focus on single target nukes, while avatars use AoE elemental magic would further individualize both and make them unique. It's a win, win for both spirits and avatars for players if SE would adapt my "vision" and "fixes". -
09-04-2011, 11:44 PMMalamasalahttp://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...t-spell-updateQuote:
No it isn't. The only reason why Spirits keep getting brought up is because you keep bringing it up. You as in a singularity.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...s-Plz-Phys-BPs
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...its-spell-list(Me though)
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...rting-summoner(Less about spirits, but points out new Summoners try spirits and go "wtf?")
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...mental-Spirits
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...lemental-Purge
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-Spirit-Staves
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...tion-fixes-SMN
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...o-be-addressed(Not focused on spirits, but mention them as a problem)
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...and-spell-list
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ner-Job-Issues
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...pirits-Re-make
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...for-Spirits...
I speak for the threads above. Who do you speak for? All the threads I didn't link? Sorry, but those aren't "anti spirit" threads, they are just threads on other topics. (Mainly BP timers, wards, new avatars, all 3 which has been answered in the thread btw, leaving only spirits as the unanswered big question)Quote:
No they don't. Nobody but you has brought up spirits as a whole, and the people who expand on your ideas are doing that to shut you up. You do not speak for the majority of the playerbase, and most certainly not for the majority of playerbase who levels SMNs.
I listen to everyone except Korpg and Raz, two people who have proved they do not listen to my viewpoint so why should I listen to theirs? Funny enough that usually means there is nobody left saying anything negative about spirits.Quote:
You even don't listen to the people who oppose you in this limited viewpoint of yours.
You have no idea how long that perspective is though. For all you know, it could be talking just this september update. I want to hear if there are any plans at all for spirits, or if they are OFFICIALLY counted as junk code.Quote:
Also, the devs have specifically stated that the focus for SMNs will be avatars and not spirits.
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09-04-2011, 11:56 PMRazushuExcept that Avatars get nukes too, and as far as I can tell they always had them(unless I'm missing something), so the spilt is more early and later on pets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Thats exactly how they work though, usable at low levels, get surpassed by Avatars, just like low tier nukes. They weren't "forgotten" past 75 Se stopped adding elementals to the game past 75 cap(aside from one or two like the tII VNMs in abys). The spirit casting system isn't that complicated, pretty simple actually, day/weather and smn mag skl effects the cast time.... thats it. Avatars get all the burden, because that was the plan, pretty obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
You're argument here is as silly as your attempt at angering me by purposefully getting my name wrong Cunvtant. SE gave us a reason to buy the spirits with Elemental Siphon when Avatars became easily attainable. As it is now spirits are better off than other jobs early stage tools because they were given something, they were made the condition of our MP management tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
They don't need to state their intentions even though they pretty much have, it shouold be fairly clear to all involved that considering they have done nothing to spirits since Elemental Siphon was implemented, that they have no plans for the forseeable future to do anything to spirits. i agree with you here that any change they made to spirits would probably be reflected in the coding for enemy spirits(it's probably the only reason our spirits were getting new spells up to the point they stopped adding higher level elementals), and on this score it's unlikely to happen because spirits are meant to be fairly weak pets as seen in how they're used pretty exclusively by lower level and regular mob SMNs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Why more pets though? We have more than enough as it is 13(soon) Avatars and 8 spirits. Summoner has more than enough pets to get the job done as it stands, we don't need more pets. Our biggest problem is speed not variety, and when the new ability to increase BP frequency hits(provided its a good one) that won't even be a problem anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
An adjustment to spirits would limit Avatars growth simply by the fact the devs would be working on spirits instead of Avatars. Magic damage is already covered.... by Avatars, as is Physical, and buffs, and healing, there's nothing left for spirits aside from debuffing, which ironically is what the pro-spirit camp hates about them. You're idea to spilt physical and nukes among Avatars and spirits is fine, until you realise that you'll only be using one at a time anyway, and chances are you're using either magic or physical because your target is weak to one, so you're not going to bother with the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
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09-05-2011, 12:15 AMMalamasalaIt is actually 50/50 as in some don't care, others care. The question is why anyone should listen to those who do not care? The only reason you say they are fine, is because you have no intention of using them outside of siphon.Quote:
They may be a hot topic, but I would say the communtity is spilt up 50/50 on them. Those of us saying spirits are fine, are saying it because... they are fine.
Also I'm having a hard time remembering anyone else than Korpg and Razushu that said spirits were fine. We even have TWO other people here saying spirit updates would be welcome. That makes us 3 vs 2 until you get your friends in here to support you. -
09-05-2011, 12:45 AMRazushuQuote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
I listen, but I've yet to see a valid reason why spirits should be updated. Show me one and honestly I would be happy to back it, until then I'm going to keep voicing my opposing opinion. You know I listen because I always respond to at least most of the points you make in your posts, I just disagree unfortunately.
Nobody knows or is claiming to know, but it's definitely going past the septtember update, considering how they've told us what we can expect in the manifesto and are yet to deliver on anything in it. So thats at least two updates coming where it's highly unlikely spirits will be looked at.
As for your linksa fair few aren't even asking for fixing to spirits, ones just looking for better rewards from waking the beast and the other is just venting on how hard SMN can be to play at low levels, about 5/13 aren't actually asking for fixes to spirits. , Three have the same Author, and one is yours.
Why would there need to be anti-spirit threads, only reason anyone is voicing the opinion that spirits don't need adjusting is because people are asking for them to be adjusted. As soon as you either stop talking about spirits or convince me they need an adjustment I'll stop disagreeing with you.
I'm honestly open to the possibility of an update to spirits but until theres a suggestion that isn't a waste of dev time(as far as actually improving the job goes) and will actually improve our position in game as much or more than a simple straight buff to Avatars damage/BP frequency, I'm gonna keep popping up showing SE that not all SMNs think spirits are an integral part of a 90 SMN's arsenal, yet are in desperate need of a fix.
Maybe Spirits have fallen behind on what some would like, but is that actually holding SMN back? Think about it What would actually happen if SE stopped with their current plan and recoded our spirits to cast smarter and cast higher tiers, we would now have a slightly more reliable pet that casts nukes comparable to probaly a lvl1 merit pact, what does that actually achieve for SMN? What can we do we couldn't before? What can we do better than we could before?
If you answer honestly to those 3 questions the answer is nothing, SMN gained nothing in that update except those that mean to can now use spirits to nuke if they still feel like it. The job however is completely where it started off before it got this "update".
This is the kind of thing I'm arguing against not you, not spirits, not the ideas you and the others have suggested, I'm fighting against the potentially wasted dev time on a job that sorely needs an update. If we were discussing WAR or WHM I would be right there beside you demanding updates for every damn thing I could think of:D -
09-05-2011, 01:03 AMRazushuQuote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
Seeing as how this mirrors my own thoughts on spirits exactly, I would say that makes 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tannlore
I say they are fine because SMN is fine with them as they are, you've yet to propose one way SMN benefits more from spirits getting better at nuking. Honestly because I would like to hear it, I can't think of it. No matter what SE does with spirits I'm 99% sure Avatars will still be stronger, I can't really see them focusing this long on Avatars, only to say "We've decided spirits should be stronger".
This being most likely the case, what does SMN actually gain from spirits getting a buff? So far all I can think of is a new toy. Maybe there's something in there, and so far some of the spirit supported Avatar ideas have been promising. But just a plain boost to spirits will be useless to SMN, kind of like giving SAM better option with 1hand swords, G.katanas would still outshine them. If they boosted spirits DD/healing/nuking/buffing abilities, it would be a waste of dev time simply because we already had DD/healing/buffing/nuking pets that were better to begin with and are probably still better after.