Raise the Minimum Requirement for entering Abyssea to Lv70 or 75

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Originally Posted by Kimble

If they raised the cap to 70 or 75, people would just go back to smn burning jobs to 70-75.

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Are you really going to compare the ease of access of Abyssea leeching to the relative difficulty in getting a puller/s and setting up a SMNburn?

During the age of SMNburn people were still EXPing, doing MMM pts and other forms of exp play. Now? Its Abyssea leeching or grind solo.

Big difference, not that I want to go back to LFP and specific cookie-cutter PT setups. I just find that Abyssea leeching will be one of the key factors that brings this game to its knees.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

During the age of SMNburn people were still EXPing, doing MMM pts and other forms of exp play. Now? Its Abyssea leeching or grind solo.

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I'm in a regular xp pt as we speak. Stop exaggerating. Flagged for only about 5 minutes too.


I'm wondering if the people who seem to insist that parties don't exist, actually try to form their own parties, or sit in jeuno expecting them to get formed for them.

[edit] my party is in qufim, and there are 3 other parties here. old xping is not dead.

Abyssea leeching is a problem in the game. You can't fix it now, as has been stated.

However, there is nothing stopping anyone from forming a small (2-4) party and killing T-VT monsters. You will find that that method will produce acceptable EXP/hr and you will wonder why you hadn't done so earlier. And if you're wondering where those other few people come from, you should have friends. LS mates. And lastly, the people looking for party. That's how the priority tier should look like when seeking members for a group. Yet people are ignorant and continue to /sea all invite x-y. They think a party MUST consist of AT LEAST a WHM/RDM/SCH, a PLD or NIN, DDs, and other jobs as necessary.

That's not true at all. Any DD subbing DNC can function as a main healer in a small group. A dedicated tank is unnecessary, and even if it were necessary there are jobs (like MNK, and SAM) that when paired with the right sub can perform just as well as a PLD, in a small group situation.

I dare some of you to try that. It's simple. Get a small group together, no more than 4 people, and go kill T-VT mobs. With the EXP adjustments they did in February, you'll be able to attain great EXP/hr. I am sure of it.

And if you don't at least try... then stop your complaining.

The game has always been been based around getting max level and gear. Anything thing else your trying to tell your self is a lie. In the end even though you enjoy the story line and play for it doesn't mean that the rest of us do. Don't force your way of playing on the rest of us, cause at this point alot of people already have all the jobs they really care about at 70+ so still no low leveling if they up it.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

I'm in a regular xp pt as we speak. Stop exaggerating. Flagged for only about 5 minutes too.


I'm wondering if the people who seem to insist that parties don't exist, actually try to form their own parties, or sit in jeuno expecting them to get formed for them.

[edit] my party is in qufim, and there are 3 other parties here. old xping is not dead.

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Grats?

Theres 14 people flagged from 30-76 on my server atm. Average around ~20 during primetime.

Old school EXP is a novelty and if you get a PT, consider yourself lucky.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Grats?

Theres 14 people flagged from 30-76 on my server atm. Average around ~20 during primetime.

Old school EXP is a novelty and if you get a PT, consider yourself lucky.

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that's two parties right there with the right jobs. and again ALL I DO IS REGULAR PTS.

and count how many actual parties are already out there xping.


it is not dead, I think in all the regular partying I've done, I've had maybe 2 days where I got unlucky.


Again, even if there were 100 people seeking the tank to DD ratio would still slow it down to where it's at currently.

Anyone thinking otherwise either a. is too lazy to make their own parties b. have their nostaglia glasses on backwards.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

ALL I DO IS REGULAR PTS.

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So then why are you on here defending Abyssea Leeching?

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Originally Posted by Romanova

that's two parties right there with the right jobs. and again ALL I DO IS REGULAR PTS.

and count how many actual parties are already out there xping.


it is not dead, I think in all the regular partying I've done, I've had maybe 2 days where I got unlucky.


Again, even if there were 100 people seeking the tank to DD ratio would still slow it down to where it's at currently.

Anyone thinking otherwise either a. is too lazy to make their own parties b. have their nostaglia glasses on backwards.

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Current EXP PTs on Lakshmi:

ERon(S): 0
Wajaom: 0
MMM: 0
Cad Mire: 0
Altepa: 1
Thickets: 0

Dude, im glad you've found EXP parties but the reality is that they are something in the past and made so because of rampant Abyssea leeching. For someone logging in, you'd be hard pressed to make a PT because:

A. Most people rather leech.
B. Getting a rep if someone leaves is a nightmare.
C. Old EXP was already bad if you didn't have proper resources.

This has nothing to do with tanks cause gasp, you don't need them in a meleeburn. What this has to do with is the fact that Abyssea has a superior way to level and thus people do not want to go back to horribly slow EXP.

If you're a new player this is doubly so because it means you'll be soloing a majority of the time (no keys to leech, not enough willing to pt cause of leeching) which leads to tedium, frustration and eventually quitting. You can say the same thing existed before Abyssea but at least then you knew others were suffering along side you.

You can keep saying that people aren't "trying" hard enough though.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

So then why are you on here defending Abyssea Leeching?

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I see nothing wrong with people having options?

As I said, (I don't want to sound misleading,) I did leech only once, because I have two toons and I am working towards putting all my jobs onto one toon since I hate dual boxing. I had some extra gil so leeched on my rdm.

However, for me, I love my gil more than I love my xp XD. XP the old way is free, whereas I have to pay to leech (god knows I already spend enough on nin tools as it is).

If I could leech for free I probably would.

But I also don't mind xp the old way too much.


To put it in perspective, if SE didn't allow us to xp the old way at all then I would be up in arms with you. I like choices, I am more than willing to take an outside look and say "even if I don't like X I can see why others do, and they pay just as much money to play this game as I do"


But again I've had zero issue getting into pts, and actually get htem fast than I used to (hurray for camps not being overcrowded!). Therefore I see no issue in this whatsoever.

God forbid anyone actually communicate in this game. Hop on a lower level job and ask around to see if anyone's interested in leveling with you. It doesn't take but two people to have a better EXP/hr than a soloer, if they're smart about duoing.

I can't believe people sometimes. You're all so deadset that parties must be a certain way and take place in certain areas, when that isn't the case at all. You have disappointed me, FFXI community... After going through so much change and so many hardships, forming a small man group for EXP is nigh impossible for you.

My level 25ish SCH likes to level /DNC meleeing through Buburimu in a frightful gearset consisting only of visible gear and my level 1 Windurstian Ring.

Thanks to adjustments to FoV, Signet, Exp Rings, and the bonus granted to experience points outside of Abyssea, I can get reasonably good exp without joining pickup exp parties!

I'm a reason why your Qufim or Jungles party doesn't have a healer. :3

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Current EXP PTs on Lakshmi:

ERon(S): 0
Wajaom: 0
MMM: 0
Cad Mire: 0
Altepa: 1
Thickets: 0

Dude, im glad you've found EXP parties but the reality is that they are something in the past and made so because of rampant Abyssea leeching.

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To be fair, standard exp parties were dying before the advent of Abyssea. Because of a lack of new players. Everyone was meriting. Those that weren't meriting were exping in: Qufim, Eron, Wajaom. Fast forward today. Those that aren't Abyssea leeching are exping in.. Qufim, Eron, Wajaom.

I'm pretty confident if the devs took the time to "waste their time" and implement a better exp system outside of Abyssea, it would cut down on the leeching.

But please, remind me again why we're against leeching? Are we against new players leeching because they can't "learn their jobs"? Are we against old players exping jobs they never plan to use? What is the argument exactly, I'm 13 guys what is this?

Nobody was learning how to play their jobs before Abyssea except those that took the time to look things up on forums. The reasons being:

-Stubbornness (wanting to play a job the way you want to play it regardless of how sucky it is, melee brd go!) "It's MY 13 bucks a month!"

-Ignorance (not knowing or caring that there are better ways to do things)

-"Good" exp parties allowed people to level so fast they didn't have a chance to learn much at all, either as a player or as a character combat/magic skillwise

-Level sync denied pretty much everyone a chance to learn anything about a job 60+ because everyone spent all their time as a lvl 20, 37 or 55

-Experience points parties were NEVER a good way to teach or learn how to play a job, because the only thing exp taught was.. how to exp

So does this whole thread boil down to oldf**s crying that all their hard work leveling the "old way" (the definition of "old way" being whatever was the commonly practiced way when they were exping, which changes every couple years) were in vain because the same amount of work can be done in days vs months now?

If we're old-man ranting, how about the fact that Abyssea xp in general, for everyone is TOO fast. Whereas 25k/hr was a pretty dang good pt at one point, 100k/hr in Abyssea is considered a "meh" party. If they had made Abyssea cap out at 50k/hr~ we all still would have thought it was great. People would take 4-5 days of hard work and a lot more cruor to leech to 90 instead of 1-2, and people would still be complaining about the state of things, but a bit less loudly.

So in this post, we (hopefully) realize that:

-Old way sucked
-Exp parties were never a good source for "learning a job"
-People will suck at their jobs no matter how difficult you make it to level up
-People will find a way to leech or circumvent your personal ideas on how exp should be restricted
-Nobody cares about brokenhearted oldf**s. (I'm an oldf** too, but you don't see me crying like a fat baby Jesus)
-Tougher exp does not a more educated playerbase make

With all of that pounded into the heads of the "increase Abyssea entrance lvl" whiners, we finally come down to the real root of their argument, which I will summarize as follows:

"We suffered. Y'all need to feel the suffering too."

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

To be fair, standard exp parties were dying before the advent of Abyssea. Because of a lack of new players. Everyone was meriting. Those that weren't meriting were exping in: Qufim, Eron, Wajaom. Fast forward today. Those that aren't Abyssea leeching are exping in.. Qufim, Eron, Wajaom.

I'm pretty confident if the devs took the time to "waste their time" and implement a better exp system outside of Abyssea, it would cut down on the leeching.

But please, remind me again why we're against leeching? Are we against new players leeching because they can't "learn their jobs"? Are we against old players exping jobs they never plan to use? What is the argument exactly, I'm 13 guys what is this?

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Im not against leeching.

What I am against is the fact that leeching has completely killed off any other alternative to partying. You're either soloing, getting the rare EXP party or doing leeching.

I posted in another thread that if SE revitalized Campaign (to be more like Bastion) as a place to level from 30-75+ that the entire problem of leeching would dissolve as that would be an ideal alternative if you couldn't acquire the resources to leech.

Right now if you can't leech a job you're stuck doing FoV/GoV to the moon or begging people to EXP.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Im not against leeching.

What I am against is the fact that leeching has completely killed off any other alternative to partying. You're either soloing, getting the rare EXP party or doing leeching.

I posted in another thread that if SE revitalized Campaign (to be more like Bastion) as a place to level from 30-75+ that the entire problem of leeching would dissolve as that would be an ideal alternative if you couldn't acquire the resources to leech.

Right now if you can't leech a job you're stuck doing FoV/GoV to the moon or begging people to EXP.

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Right right. The first part was a response to you. The rest was anti-Akujima sentiment.

I would love to see Exp-Reborn implemented. To the extent that it's comparable to Abyssea so that we can be done with the leeching drama. As much as I personally enjoy being able to level a job, it is tedious, boring and completely without any type of challenge or stimulation. When I leveled SMN, until I learned Cure IV, the only macro I had for the job was /item "Forbidden Key" <t>

It's a terrible way to have to level a job. And you end up being 90 with the magic/combat skill of.. a lvl 30, if that.

Not that you'd be capping skills outside of Abyssea if exp was adjusted to rival Abyssea... UNLESS we also got skillups as a reward for finishing tab pages! THAT would be great and relieve us of the tedious process of skilling up after we ding 90.

So, raising the Abyssea cap does nothing to fix a problem that has existed for 9 years. EXP sucks. People that make threads like this or agree to them just want others to relive the pointless suffering we all endured. I'm not so bitter that I'd put anyone through that needlessly. Even if I got all my jobs to 90 and was no longer affected by whatever nerfs SE could implement, I wouldn't harp about the evils of Abyssea leveling.

*edit*

And by the way. After we implement the minimum level increase for Abyssea entrance, we ARE rolling back the levels of EVERYONE who exp'd that way right? It's only fair if we're going to deny future "abuse" of the Abyssea leveling system that everyone who leveled that way will be forced to go back and re-level their jobs the "old way".

I agree completely with choco. I have zero issues with them either creating other ways to xp, or making old ways appealing enough that people do it.

I do have complete issue with people wanting a choice taken away out of bitterness/selfishness.

I like leeching. Don't remove it.

If you don't like it, don't do it. And don't play with people do.

I don't know why this simple solution is not used by these people who dislike it.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

I agree completely with choco. I have zero issues with them either creating other ways to xp, or making old ways appealing enough that people do it.

I do have complete issue with people wanting a choice taken away out of bitterness/selfishness.

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Agreed here.

My only problem with Abyssea leeching (other than it being boring) is that I can't do it! Which is why I would like to see exp outside of Abyssea be more comparable. Yeah, some people have 500K gil laying around they can use to pay for a leech spot - others, like myself, just re-rolled a couple months ago and can barely afford to stay decently geared enough to solo without peril.

If people want to leech, I don't care - what I do care about is the fact that new/re-rolling players will quit if they have to go through the horrible grind I've been faced with. It is that simple. It is also hilarious to see people in my thread about leveling 65+ outside of Aby. tell me that 6-8K an hour is "totally fine" and I should stop "QQing" when most of them probably leech 150K an hour... lol

They really should bump it up to 70+ for a number of reasons:

- Most DD jobs can't even hit anything below 70, even in the Visions areas.
- You level up far too quickly, and then have a massive skill-deficit to make up for.
- You also don't learn the ins and outs of your respective jobs, and thus we wind up with a bunch of people running around at level 90 with no clue how to properly play their roles to the fullest and/or wearing garbage equipment.
- Finally, newer players will just speed through missing all the wonderful content that we used to enjoy way back when.

For those of us like myself who've been playing for a very long time (I started in Dec 2003) it's not a big deal if we burn through to the top - Just one less hassle after 8 years of the old dev team's nonsense. But it robs the newbies of that crucial experience, learning about the game etc. etc. I personally find it takes away from the experience, just racing to 90 ASAP and then clearing all the story with little to no trouble as a result.

There's no rush, it's not a race here folks - the newbies should slow it down a bit and actually enjoy the game. Otherwise you might get burned out on it very quickly.

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Originally Posted by Malacite

They really should bump it up to 70+ for a number of reasons:

- Most DD jobs can't even hit anything below 70, even in the Visions areas.
- You level up far too quickly, and then have a massive skill-deficit to make up for.
- You also don't learn the ins and outs of your respective jobs, and thus we wind up with a bunch of people running around at level 90 with no clue how to properly play their roles to the fullest and/or wearing garbage equipment.
- Finally, newer players will just speed through missing all the wonderful content that we used to enjoy way back when.

For those of us like myself who've been playing for a very long time (I started in Dec 2003) it's not a big deal if we burn through to the top - Just one less hassle after 8 years of the old dev team's nonsense. But it robs the newbies of that crucial experience, learning about the game etc. etc. I personally find it takes away from the experience, just racing to 90 ASAP and then clearing all the story with little to no trouble as a result.

There's no rush, it's not a race here folks - the newbies should slow it down a bit and actually enjoy the game. Otherwise you might get burned out on it very quickly.

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Fuck it I'll bite.

- mages and bard can still be useful in party settings even at low levels since they can still cure/haste/march/etc. even below level 70.
- Skilling up isn't hard
-You wouldn't have learned that in an exp pt in the first place, since an exp pt teaches you how to exp. Most jobs aren't that hard to figure out anyway, maybe Thf and Pup if you're completely inept.
- They aren't missing as much wonderful content as you somehow think they are.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Fuck it I'll bite.

- mages and bard can still be useful in party settings even at low levels since they can still cure/haste/march/etc. even below level 70.
- Skilling up isn't hard
-You wouldn't have learned that in an exp pt in the first place, since an exp pt teaches you how to exp. Most jobs aren't that hard to figure out anyway, maybe Thf and Pup if you're completely inept.
- They aren't missing as much wonderful content as you somehow think they are.

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Like'd!

But seriously no one listens to this type of reasoning because no one listens to reason.

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Originally Posted by Octaviane

And the game will slowly dwindle down to it's inevitable end when people get to 99 and no new people are joining. The forums will be the same as they are now, filled with complaints that there is nothing to do, why no new content, why no new areas, why this, why that, can you sell me in-game content for all the gear/jobs I need to get to 99 in 1 day. FFXI is but a passing moment in the bigger picture. Enjoy the moment, regardless of your opinions.

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This

/closethread

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Originally Posted by Malacite

They really should bump it up to 70+ for a number of reasons:

- Most DD jobs can't even hit anything below 70, even in the Visions areas.
- You level up far too quickly, and then have a massive skill-deficit to make up for.
- You also don't learn the ins and outs of your respective jobs, and thus we wind up with a bunch of people running around at level 90 with no clue how to properly play their roles to the fullest and/or wearing garbage equipment.
- Finally, newer players will just speed through missing all the wonderful content that we used to enjoy way back when.

For those of us like myself who've been playing for a very long time (I started in Dec 2003) it's not a big deal if we burn through to the top - Just one less hassle after 8 years of the old dev team's nonsense. But it robs the newbies of that crucial experience, learning about the game etc. etc. I personally find it takes away from the experience, just racing to 90 ASAP and then clearing all the story with little to no trouble as a result.

There's no rush, it's not a race here folks - the newbies should slow it down a bit and actually enjoy the game. Otherwise you might get burned out on it very quickly.

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Most of this indicates that you haven't actually read much in this thread at all, or you would have realized what you're spewing has been covered and largely debased.

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- Most DD jobs can't even hit anything below 70, even in the Visions areas.

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Which is an argument for raising the exp obtainable outside Abyssea more than an Abyssea entrance level argument.

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- You level up far too quickly, and then have a massive skill-deficit to make up for.

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Which is an argument for adjusting the way people obtain skillups, not for changing the Abyssea entrance level.

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- You also don't learn the ins and outs of your respective jobs, and thus we wind up with a bunch of people running around at level 90 with no clue how to properly play their roles to the fullest and/or wearing garbage equipment.

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You don't learn the ins and outs of hardly any job by exping. The people that try to apply the skills they learned through exp parties to endgame mechanics are the ones we call "nubs".

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- Finally, newer players will just speed through missing all the wonderful content that we used to enjoy way back when.

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None of us enjoyed the fact that 5-6k/hr was a "good" party way back when. Nobody ever did Garrison/Eco Warrior, or any other events that level capped you. Nobody enjoyed spending thousands of gil on gear that you only wore for a few levels. All missions that were level capped are no longer capped. There's no reason to dawdle at low levels. All content that was enjoyable at a low level is as enjoyable or moreso at 90. And since there's a plethora of content available at 75+ which IS fun, mildly challenging or rewarding, then it pretty much IS a race to 90. And if people are getting burnt out speeding through the game, there's little that can be done about it. That's the direction the game has been heading for a couple years now. SE decided instant gratification > reward for hard work, to appeal to casual players.

So to recap, adjusting Abyssea entrance level doesn't "fix" the average player skill of the playerbase, increase level of enjoyment of the game for anyone, or provide any benefit to anyone except the whiners that just hate on leeching as a principle. Terrible idea is terrible, please realize that. What's "wrong" with the game requires much more work to "fix", and this suggestion doesn't even begin to address the "real" issues, and the devs have decided that anything that requires work gets a canned response that "it would require a lot of work". Plus, I'm sure PS2 limitations play into the minimum entrance level somehow. Not enough RAM to adjust it to 75+ minimum level.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

I'm still surprised this thread made it past page 2, considering this topic has been beaten to death so many times on these forums. I guess the mods just didn't want to necro-bump the month+ old threads that already rehashed this junk over and over, and I can't really blame them.

For the record though, FFXI is not anywhere close to dying of "lack of new content". If someone is too inept to handle the new content we're getting, that's one thing. But there is plenty of new stuff coming in, at a much greater rate than the game has seen in a very long time. It took 3 years to finish WotG. FFXI Development has sped up, not slowed down.

People can't complain about nothing to do. They complain about "Nothing to do besides X, Y, and Z". Or, they complain about "Nothing to do solo because friends suck and MMOs should be designed as one-player games". Dislike Abyssea? Think it's too easy? Too braindead? Think anyone can do it? Obviously that means you've mastered it, right? You have full sets of AF3+2 and an Empyrean 85 minimum for all your DDs, right? I mean they only take like a day to get after all.

How many people complaining about Abyssea actually succeed at the content? How many NMs have they killed without brews? How many Empyreans do they and their friends have? AF3+2 sets? If it's so easy, go get the best stuff and then complain about the lack of challenge.

But I don't see that. What I've seen are people who have never even set foot in an Abyssea zone (true story) ranting and raving about how easy it is and how it devalues everything pre-80. What I've seen are shout-tier people in Aurore/Teal/Perle complaining about how everything is easy mode after they wipe to Orthrus with 18 people (true story). What I've seen are people who brew Resheph of all things, with an Alliance, complain about how brews make everything cheap (true story).

Let those who can say they have mastered the content be the ones to say it's too easy/cheap/dull. Abyssea is the place to get the best armor/weapons in the game right now, so there's really no excuse for any competent player to not do Abyssea.

As for EXP, I really have to say that I do not give a flying banana. Herp derp no one is a special snowflake for having level 75+ jobs any more. I'll be sure to get a band-aid for your easily bruised ego while I'm out attempting to care.

Edit: Blueberry

I wasn't referring to the old EXP, which was slow and horrendous but more of just exploring the game and doing missions etc.

There's more to the game @ lower levels than just EXP.

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Originally Posted by Malacite

I wasn't referring to the old EXP, which was slow and horrendous but more of just exploring the game and doing missions etc.

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you can't do missions/explore at 90? What does leveling in abyssea do to stop you from doing those?

It just detracts from the game, to me, breezing through at 90 effortlessly. CoP was probably one of the best things the old dev team did, and they ruined it when they removed the caps.

I understand why they did it, but I still don't agree with it. It's hard to describe really.

but see, that is pure selfishness. Because you enjoyed it you think people should be forced into doing it the way you did it?

For many, CoP was a huge headache. Just because we sffered through it doesn't mean others have to if they choose not to.

They didn't change any of the fights so people can still fight them at 40, 50, etc. But now they have the choice.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

And seriously, anything that can or might have come up is a rehash of what's already been said, and subsequently pwned by what I wrote. Everyone's gimpy feelings aside, the idea of raising min entrance lvl is butthurt and people forcing their opinions on everyone else, not to mention a terrible idea that glosses over the real problems the game has.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

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Originally Posted by Romanova

RPG = role-playing game, not leveling role playing game. You are adding rules to a term that doesn't need rules, just to fit your arguement.

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Every game in the main Final Fantasy canon entails leveling up in some form, as do Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, Ultima, Xenosaga, and the list just goes on and on. So yes, though RPG literally means Role Playing Game, leveling is an implicit part, as are other conventions, that they could just as well be synonymous. Even if you could name a few examples of RPGs that don't entail leveling in some way, shape or form--and I dare you to try--leveling up remains a part of this game, FFXI, structuring many activities from jobs to crafting.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

None of it is "dishonest" because they aren't doing it in secret.

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Dishonest does not mean "done in secret." It means you've falsely represented yourself, and I've already explained how leeching does that.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

As other said, bad players will be bad. I remember back in the day there was a huge stigma against bought accounts saying "how on earth can they be any good if they haven't leveled it?!" But overtime as I met people will bought accounts, I came to a shocking discovery....ffxi is not that hard. I've met many of people who've leeched their jobs. You are stereo-typing them, with no reason.

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Yes, less intelligent, stubborn players cannot and will not learn, but smart players will learn as they go. They may pick up on things quickly. But it's just as hyperbolic to suggest that they know anything and everything automatically as it is trite but true to say that research goes a long way, but it's no substitute for "been there, done that" experience. That said, I'd rather have them learn on exp mobs than the final zone boss. Thus, leeching cheats the players themselves as well. That much is their own choice, but as no player in an MMO exists in a vacuum, it affects those that need to trust their judgement

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Originally Posted by Romanova

And lol at your term "honestly earned". By your definition, I guess so. But what they're doing is just as honest imo because they are not doing anything against SE.

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These are not "my" terms or definitions, but merely literally what the words mean. "Loling" at my rebuttal proves nothing other than that you are not taking the discussion seriously, which is detrimental to your own side. You would seem unable to defend your position as you merely repeating what you've already said, which normally signifies that the discussion is no longer productive, and therefore the conversation is quite over. Further, your lack of real effort into the discussion and name calling makes one wonder if you might be just trolling.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

1. this team is different than the old team, referring to old capped areas when this current team has been lifting caps left and right, makes zero sense.

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No, you don't have your facts straight. What the new team has done is lifted level caps in COP-middle level areas, whose primary focus were missions and various quests. These areas never forbid low level players. End game areas, on the other hand, still forbid low level players. Why Abyssea does not remains a mystery.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

2. I have seen interviews where SE has said in the past they like it when people come up with creative ways to level. In particular I remember this was in reference to nin's becoming tanks, and much later to blms soloing wamouras. So this is why I believe they have nothing against either this or smn burn, because it is still within the game mechanics and you aren't using 3rd party tools to achieve it. And considering smn burns were never stopped, I have to believe this
current team is the same way.

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That SE has specifically approved of soloing wamouras or beastmen-beastmaster pets (not that you've actually quoted SE directly anyway) does not mean they've specifically approved of nor encouraged leeching. In other words, you're trying to say that because they approve of "A" they approve of "B" when they never said they approved of "B". That they allow Astral Flow Burns does not mean they approve of it, it means they just allow it. Approval and allowance are not the same thing. Similarly, that SE currently allows leeching does not mean they approve of it. They may in fact disapprove of it, but they must prioritize what they buff, and nerf.

Even if they did, that doesn't make it a good thing. That doesn't mean that leeches take up spaces that level 75+ players could have, that doesn't mean that FFXI won't last as long for it, and that doesn't mean it's a dishonest means to greedy ends.

I'd like to point that one minute say, that was the old team, this is the new team. Then you say, the new team is the same way as the old team.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

You fail at arguing by insisting X will happen just because you want it to happen, which further proves how selfish you are being and only care about your own accomplishments in a video game.

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No, what I said was that there is a precedence for it and so therefore it might, not "it will happen just because I want it to happen." And that doesn't make selfish either. As a matter of fact, I'm known for helping people level up. But I do insist that they actively participate in the battle in a away specfic to their job, or in a way that their job is capable of supporting. What I don't do is whip out my Summoner and let them just sit there like a lump on a log every time they want to collect more gear. I have even created alliances just so friends could level up, but first, they were at least 65+ iirc, and secondly, they had to perform keymaster services. They were the only person that was allowed to be keymaster; I didn't waste party slots with a veritable army keymasters. And finally, they had to at least be on keymaster duty rather than stand around and rack up exp from OPs, which is my primary bete noir. You don't know me, and you don't have the right to make personal accusations.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

fine then have it your way, you are either a completely sore loser, or a sore winner. None of this effects you outside of your pride getting hurt that other people did it easier. I call that sore no matter what. ...I'd like to point out again, I have only leeched once, and that was because 4 years ago I made the stupid decision that I wanted to dual box characters and had a mage toon and a melee toon. I hate dual boxing. So, I'm working towards consolidating all my classes onto one character. I've already done rdm, I didn't care about leeching it back up.

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One, this isn't personal. It's not about you; you sound defensive, as if you yourself think I've caught with your hand in the cookie jar. And it isn't bout me, either. There's no reason for name calling, such as selfish, sore loser, etc. If by saying leeching is cheating and that therefore you are cheating by implication, that is one thing, but it isn't a direct personal insult to you and you alone, as opposed to every other player that does it. It isn't personal, don't make it that way. It's a debate on which we sit on opposite sides of the fence, not a vendetta.

Two, it's more accurate to say I'm unhappy about people getting to level 90 without doing a darn thing based on my effort so that my having a level 90 doesn't mean anything. Would it not then be fair to say you're unhappy about the possibility of it being taken away? or did you prefer "sore?"

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Originally Posted by Romanova

And again, I've been doing just fine getting regular parties outside of abysea. People have the choice. And I like choices. If you don't like leeching don't do it, ...don't get on a high horse and try to shut it down for others.

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I'm all for choices as well. Solo Wamouras or pets, do MMM as opposed to traditional camps, level sync down as far as you want as opposed to partying at your own level. What I'm against is the erosion of accomplishments. This game is about accomplishments and feeling good about making those accomplishments. If people commonly, publically, and routinely plagarize their way through Master's and PhD's, it takes a lot away from from people who worked very hard, and I'm sorry you just can't understand that. So yes, it is my pride; I'm proud of my character "in a video game", as you've often and so perceptively pointed out, and my pride matters to me, as it does to everyone else who slashed, hacked, and burned their way through thousands of mobs to get to where they are today. And if someone thinks they can take that way, I will "get up on a high horse" and point out every reason why people shouldn't be doing it. This is a forum, a place where we can discuss and debate what should and should not be changed. So you're perfectly welcome to "get up on a high horse" and explain why you should get something for nothing.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

A bunch of boring stuff that continues to beat the dead horse and is now completely off topic...

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I did not see anything about your muffin of preference in that miniature novel of a post. Way too much thought and energy placed into the dead horse. So what's your muffin of choice?

*edit*

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Originally Posted by Panthera

This is a forum, a place where we can discuss and debate

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No. Just no. A forum is a place to discuss and exchange ideas. You and others with an OCD need to feel correct add the debate part. I like how you didn't quote any of my reasons why changing the entrance level reqs were wrong and dumb. That means my reasoning must be irrefutable and you need to fall back on the arguments of others that are easier to pick apart. Unless you provide your muffin selection of choice, you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to this thread. I bid you good day sir.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

I'm all for choices as well. Solo Wamouras or pets, do MMM as opposed to traditional camps, level sync down as far as you want as opposed to partying at your own level. What I'm against is the erosion of accomplishments. This game is about accomplishments and feeling good about making those accomplishments. If people commonly, publically, and routinely plagarize their way through Master's and PhD's, it takes a lot away from from people who worked very hard, and I'm sorry you just can't understand that. So yes, it is my pride; I'm proud of my character "in a video game", as you've often and so perceptively pointed out, and my pride matters to me, as it does to everyone else who slashed, hacked, and burned their way through thousands of mobs to get to where they are today. And if someone thinks they can take that way, I will "get up on a high horse" and point out every reason why people shouldn't be doing it. This is a forum, a place where we can discuss and debate what should and should not be changed. So you're perfectly welcome to "get up on a high horse" and explain why you should get something for nothing.

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*Knock, Knock, Knock*

The Judge has Spoken, Sentence Passed, Case Closed.


Way to slam the hammer down Panthera.
Uplifting Post.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

*Knock, Knock, Knock*

The Judge has Spoken, Sentence Passed, Case Closed.


Way to slam the hammer down Panthera.
Uplifting Post.

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What does plagiarism have to do with leeching? Plagiarism is passing off someone's work as your own. What about leveling to 90 in the current system is work? Why do you think xp needs a hard cap up until a certain level, where it can then skyrocket? What part of being 75+ entitles you to faster exp? I assume you're grinding it out the old way 75+ too so as not to be hypocritical.

Either way though, dead horse. The judge has spoken. He called a doctor. The doctor pronounced the horse dead at the scene. So what's your muffin of choice Akujima?

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

What does plagiarism have to do with leeching? Plagiarism is passing off someone's work as your own.

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Yea exactly. You standing around doing nothing in an Abyssea PT, while some other Godly Geared players farm EXP and do the work for you, so that you can call yourself Lv90 and tell everyone YOU leveled up to 90, when in fact someone else Leveled you up to 90.

You missed the part where I said "What about leveling to 90 in the current system is work?"

Also, godly gear? I dunno what parties you've been joining. The majority of parties I start/join are people in 5/5 Perle or Aurore, half of those are afk at any given time, the ones that aren't are wiping to dolls because the mages are afraid to stun/sleep for fear that 1 of their actions on a mob will pull hate from the DD skilling up staff/working on trial weapons.

What part of 90 is an accomplishment that you need to feel proud of? What part of being 1 of 18 idiots bashing a mob or curing the bashers is anything you would need or want to brag about? Leeches (doing their job) serve as an important part of a group by letting the DD do their thing without having to concentrate on chests. It's boring, thankless work that is slower than it needs to be because of all the gimp DD. I haven't averaged over 110k/hr in 5 of my last 7 DOM OPs parties. I am to the point where I will only join regular parties that aren't obsessed with turning in pages.

Also, I've been playing this game for 7 years. I think I have it down now, so I don't need someone else telling me that I "didn't learn my job" by leeching. Anything I don't know can be covered by asking a handful of questions after the fact. If anything, my play skill has gone UP since Abyssea, since I have had the opportunity to level jobs like SMN and RDM that I NEVER would have touched otherwise.

Also, you didn't answer the question about what about being level 75+ entitles you to more exp/hour?

Your arguments/concerns are silly, trivial, and are shared by a select few close-minded individuals who think time sink=challenging/fun/educational, and serve no purpose other than to try to impose your views on others.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Yea exactly. You standing around doing nothing in an Abyssea PT, while some other Godly Geared players farm EXP and do the work for you, so that you can call yourself Lv90 and tell everyone YOU leveled up to 90, when in fact someone else Leveled you up to 90.

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You're really over dramatizing this. I can't believe this discussion is still going on.

If SE was going to change it, they would have already.

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Originally Posted by Malacite

I wasn't referring to the old EXP, which was slow and horrendous but more of just exploring the game and doing missions etc.

There's more to the game @ lower levels than just EXP.

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and abyssea low cap have nothing to do with people exploring zones and doing missions

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malacite

It just detracts from the game, to me, breezing through at 90 effortlessly. CoP was probably one of the best things the old dev team did, and they ruined it when they removed the caps.

I understand why they did it, but I still don't agree with it. It's hard to describe really.

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same than previous quote

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Originally Posted by Panthera

Yes, less intelligent, stubborn players cannot and will not learn, but smart players will learn as they go. They may pick up on things quickly. But it's just as hyperbolic to suggest that they know anything and everything automatically as it is trite but true to say that research goes a long way, but it's no substitute for "been there, done that" experience. That said, I'd rather have them learn on exp mobs than the final zone boss. Thus, leeching cheats the players themselves as well. That much is their own choice, but as no player in an MMO exists in a vacuum, it affects those that need to trust their judgement

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the smart player will learn a lot more about how to play his job in few days of training on aby NMs (different ones,not brewing) will learn a lot more effithan 3month of stupid xp monsters (even if he sux on the first fight)

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know me, and you don't have the right to make personal accusations.


I'm all for choices as well. Solo Wamouras or pets, do MMM as opposed to traditional camps, level sync down as far as you want as opposed to partying at your own level. What I'm against is the erosion of accomplishments. This game is about accomplishments and feeling good about making those accomplishments. If people commonly, publically, and routinely plagarize their way through Master's and PhD's, it takes a lot away from from people who worked very hard, and I'm sorry you just can't understand that. So yes, it is my pride; I'm proud of my character "in a video game", as you've often and so perceptively pointed out, and my pride matters to me, as it does to everyone else who slashed, hacked, and burned their way through thousands of mobs to get to where they are today. And if someone thinks they can take that way, I will "get up on a high horse" and point out every reason why people shouldn't be doing it. This is a forum, a place where we can discuss and debate what should and should not be changed. So you're perfectly welcome to "get up on a high horse" and explain why you should get something for nothing.

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I haven't consider getting a job @75 an accomplishment since colibri burn exist unless it was your first job (you did the lol LBs) a 6 year old could grind xp to 75 ( I know people who lvled some of their job by letting their children play them)
IMO getting another job at 75(now 90) was just a (boring time sink) mean to do content in a different way (not always being the same job)

you can get satisfaction getting your lvl75 outside abyssea , you can even lvl it to 90 outside abyssea if you want (that might be worth being considered an accomplishment)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Yea exactly. You standing around doing nothing in an Abyssea PT, while some other Godly Geared players farm EXP and do the work for you, so that you can call yourself Lv90 and tell everyone YOU leveled up to 90, when in fact someone else Leveled you up to 90.

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I leech in abyssea pt so that i can tell people "Hey, now i can come This job"
I recently leeched my war, few hour after that leech PT I was able to proc all the RED !! we couldn't proc before, we finished empys faster because we got 100% KI.

I like blueberry muffins, and my level 75 jobs. Maybe someday I'll make the jump to 90.

edit:
Having too much fun with gardening, chocobos, pankration, skilling up parrying, meritting and crafting than to level my three level 75 jobs.

After going through the thread again, I'd like to summarize some of the reasons why some people are OK with leeching.

-Everyone is used to the extremely high exp now, and don't want to go back to slower rates.
-Abyssea leeching is a chance to spend time with friends, who wouldn't spend time elsewhere due to exp rates.
-People who can get Abyssea level exp won't party at slower rates.
-Parties are hard to set up, because there aren't enough seeking for outside areas, because of the difference in exp.
-People level jobs they never would have because of the faster rates.
-In terms of effort vs. payoff, it's unbeatable. You can get 90 by going afk and doing X.

I won't deign to argue against the "merit" of the final reason. But for all except the last reason, it's obvious that every thusly summarized reason to level in Abyssea relates to fast exp; they're all logically sound. However, none of the reasons make leeching not cheating, which is my contention.

What can be had is a compromise. Abyssea should be adjusted, but outside areas should be adjusted as well, as has been suggested. The idea is that outside areas should be adjusted in a way such that they are worthwhile enough to do for those who could do Abyssea if the entry level were adjusted.

I'm not saying that raising the level requirement for Abyssea should be contigent on adjusting outside areas, because the harm caused to the rest of the game are independant of such adjustments, but outside areas should still see adjustments. In other words, here's the logic.

Where A is Abyssea and B are Outside Areas

A harms B.

A should be adjusted because A harms B

A should be adjusted whether B gets adjusted or not, because A harms B.

B should be adjusted to make B almost appealing as A.

The result is that although the two can and will compete, it's not an all or nothing, do A or not at all type of thing.

This way, people can still get to 90 quickly, which is their goal, but still in a way that's specific to or supported by playing their job. No one's accomplishments are taken away, everyone wins. Now, the only possible reason I can see is that people just don't want to play their jobs to get exp. If that's the case...why level it at all?

You're argument is stupid, and here's why. I have 2 alts. I burned them both to have several level 90 jobs using my main character's BLM. How am I cheating? How am I harming anybody? I am not leeching, I know just how hard it is to do quick pulls and check chests and open the right chests, all while spamming different macros for spells and gear sets so that I don't die.

By your definition, I am a cheater because 'leeching' inside Abyssea is inherently lazy, except I'm sure I'm working harder on all three of my accounts than you have ever worked for one minute inside Abyssea.

Also, your definition of cheating is stupid. If you go by it, you are cheating, since you obviously are not putting in as much effort leveling your jobs as I am. The least you could do is run two accounts at once. Then come talk about leeching being cheating.

If SMN burning is not cheating, in what universe can you claim with a straight face that Abyssea Leeching is?

Keep in mind, the rules of the game are not yours to arbitrarily implement. To cheat at the game is to do something that is against the rules of the game. When no rules of the game are being broken, the use of a mechanic is not cheating.

The rules of the game are set by the Developers and Staff, not by history, tradition, or the player base. They have stated numerous times that Smn burning is not cheating, and have made no statement either way about Abyssea Leeching despite knowing of its existence. Until/Unless it is adjusted by them, or they comment on it, one can only assume that it does not break any rules.

Finally, you and Akujima tend to use a particular backwards argument when dealing with this sort of thing that just drives me crazy. "FFXI is an RPG and thus X, Y, and Z need to be in it". That's not how it works. You are trying to define the game based on its genre when it is the games themselves which define their genre. You do not look at FFXI and say "Well this needs to be an RPG, so the game needs to be this". You look at FFXI and say "Well, in this game you control a single avatar who explores the game world and gains experience points and skills, gaining new abilities over time, so you could call this game an RPG."

FFXI is FFXI. If it changes enough that it "does not deserve the title of RPG any more", they can simply change the genre. Not that your video game purism isn't wholly unappreciated nonetheless.

Also, there is no accomplishment for leveling jobs and never was. People really need to get that through their heads. I've seen level 30 players who were better at their jobs than "Main Job", old-leveled 90s who were too dense to look up even a single shred of credible information in their 7 years of playing the game.