So i leeched my job to 90 in abyssea

when did i ever say it was for Y/G/K?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

I will admit I am just here checking out on situations, i have no idea on 90 math esp inside abyssea. I do not really look at my screan. So i cannot say yeah my war has this attack for ws, mnk has that, job z had xxx str xxx attack.

I can say this though namas arrow needs huge amounts of attack. i ussed STR/ R attack atma, VV, R attack/ R acc atma

food still gave me more damage
berserk on top of that still gave me more damage
warcry on top of that gave me more damage

so where is this cap?????

when i was on war getting attack song I would pop a lot more 4k raging rush vs without ( useally only pop that with warcry)

and double haste assumes you are always on mobs, witch is more untrue then is

---

I would kill to test haste/ march/ and attack song. i soloed scs just on haste a lot ( without is tricky)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

my sam/war. haste and attack plz

---

Yoichi Sam/War? This is a terribad case of looking at WS spikes versus WS frequency. Haste is Haste, WS frequency is WS frequency. You may not hit Epeen Namas's every shot, but you're getting a healthy chunk more WS with the added Haste assuming you're actually hitting Namas every time you break 100TP. Even with TP overflow from using a Quint Spear, this is situational at best, and would probably rank as one of the only situations in the entire game where Min/March would work out even remotely close to March/March; and then only if you're the only DD in the party, or are otherwise getting unique songs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

when did i ever say it was for Y/G/K?

---

Oh, You use Namas Arrow on your SAM... Okaaay i missed that. Edit: I'll let GG take over.

Did you use to Post on KillingIfrit? About SMN Stuff i think? Have an Avatar with your character leaning against a tree with Carby by you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Yoichi Sam/War? This is a terribad case of looking at WS spikes versus WS frequency. Haste is Haste, WS frequency is WS frequency. You may not hit Epeen Namas's every shot, but you're getting a healthy chunk more WS with the added Haste assuming you're actually hitting Namas every time you break 100TP. Even with TP overflow from using a Quint Spear, this is situational at best, and would probably rank as one of the only situations in the entire game where Min/March would work out decently; and then only if you're the only DD in the party, or are otherwise getting unique songs.

---

more damage on ws, more damage on sc. like i said i can already frequently solo sc with just haste spell.

wonder what it be like meleeing a mob nearby and just go nuts shooting at NM.

safe, out of aoe, almost hate free damage XD

the double march thing is still assuming you are always on NM -.-

To be honest I was posing the question for Tenshibaby anyways. Even if Namas Arrow SAMs constitute an entire 1% of the FFXI population (highly doubtful), saying that March/March thoroughly wins 99% of the time is still correct. Even in the case of Namas SAM, I'd think March/March would destroy March/Min; just by a smaller margin than with other jobs. I suck at ranged damage formulas though so I'll leave it up to someone else if they want to mess with that.

Edit: Increased Skillchain damage as a reason to place WS damage over WS frequency? Just no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

To be honest I was posing the question for Tenshibaby anyways. Even if Namas Arrow SAMs constitute an entire 1% of the FFXI population (highly doubtful), saying that March/March thoroughly wins 99% of the time is still correct. Even in the case of Namas SAM, I'd think March/March would destroy March/Min; just by a smaller margin than with other jobs. I suck at ranged damage formulas though so I'll leave it up to someone else if they want to mess with that.

Edit: Increased Skillchain damage as a reason to place WS damage over WS frequency? Just no.

---

1. I guess, anyways the double march thing has to assume always on NM, tank mnk sure ( when does mnk hit delay cap anyway with trait?)

Maybe he is telling you think about running in and ws and running out witch I was saying.

double march... though I guess it has to be tested on NM i really do not know but without extra attack on top those atmas i cannot oneshot exp mob because damage is too low. I can oneshot EXP mob because of sc when berserk is up. I was soloing sc with just haste spell so added with march II how does march I really help?

on worms in la thene

800 ish with nothing
1400 ish with food
1800 ish with food and zerk
up to 2500 with berserk food and warcry

really crazy. I just got it so i could be wrong i guess because I just got it, but the damage increase with buffs just off food and berserk is insane. my friend though it could crt because of the large difference when i was doing trails with her outside abyssea.

Adding March 1 is a 27% increase in attack speed over just using March2/Haste/Gear. I'd say it helps a lot.

Edit: I really have yet to meet a single competent group that ran in/out to damage things. Really. Not one. Why in the hell would a DD be there if they're not engaged? They're a complete waste of space. If you have too many DDs in a group to put on the NM, fight two different NMs.

I thoguth you where in here ealier or a different thread talking about some NM being spammy that 1 whm can't really handle it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

I thoguth you where in here ealier or a different thread talking about some NM being spammy that 1 whm can't really handle it

---

I said 1 WHM shouldn't be healing 5 DDs. I never said any NM was too spammy for a WHM to handle healing 1-2 people. I also don't know of any NM that needs more than 1-2 DDs. If you have those 1-2 DDs and a WHM, you absolutely don't need extra DDs running around the sidelines and WS'ing it. Those DDs can either not be there, or can pair up with another healer and do a second NM in a different part of the zone.

Edit: And I never listed TP feed as the reason multiple DDs die. In fact the entire purpose of that post was to say that it had nothing to do with TP feed. Having 5 DDs on the NM is not going to kill you because the NM got Spammy. It's going to kill people because 1 WHM can only cast 1 spell at a time. If they're curing one person, another is not being cured. If you leave 5 DDs to a single WHM, they will have to cut their losses and drop people for the sake of the whole.

That said, no one should ever be bringing 5 DDs and 1 Whm to anything anyways. Really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I said 1 WHM shouldn't be healing 5 DDs. I never said any NM was too spammy for a WHM to handle healing 1-2 people. I also don't know of any NM that needs more than 1-2 DDs. If you have those 1-2 DDs and a WHM, you absolutely don't need extra DDs running around the sidelines and WS'ing it. Those DDs can either not be there, or can pair up with another healer and do a second NM in a different part of the zone.

---

gate of hades or something...

and sorry for wording it wrong you are right.

what about that one NM that uses thunder to level up? the small group i ment just brews the crap out of it.

lol I just realized how pointless it is to argue not Haste-whoring with people who also advocate Abyssea-leeching.

And if you know that 700 + 70 isn't the same as 10% damage output, then don't pull it in for comparison as though it were. Your earlier comparison suggested you weren't aware of this.

didn't you say that once already? I do not think anyone said that to begin with

10% more attack sure but not 10% more damage output

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I said 1 Abyssea-leveled WHM shouldn't be healing 5 DDs.
That said, no one should ever be bringing 5 DDs and 1 Abyssea-leveled Whm to anything anyways. Really.

---

Fixed it for you.

Well it looked like on page 15 he was saying how that 10% added attack was no match for the extra whatever % damage calculation the added March gives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tenshibaby

lol I just realized how pointless it is to argue not Haste-whoring with people who also advocate Abyssea-leeching.

And if you know that 700 + 70 isn't the same as 10% damage output, then don't pull it in for comparison as though it were. Your earlier comparison suggested you weren't aware of this.

---

Really? It's pointless when you haven't contributed a single thing this entire time? Oh, okay. Seriously. "Haste whores"? You're not making things any better for yourself. Going from 700 to 770 Attack is less than a 10% increase in damage, not more.

Now, I may not agree with Rambus about everything but at least he's applying actual situations to things. I asked you before and I'll ask you again, against what monster or in what situation would you use songs that were not March/March, and what would they be?

@Rambus, I just stun the Khimaira. People just brew him for the Empyrean upgrade items because it saves time, in my experience. Getting 75 horns is annoying enough, 200k cruor is no big deal if it shaves off 20-30~ minutes of fighting 4 Khims.

Edit: Leveling the old way doesn't make you miraculously able to cast Curaga IV at -50% Cast Time back to back. You can't break the hard cap on casting speed, nor can you break the forced delay after each spell. WHM can alternate Cure V and Cure VI to keep any one or two DDs alive without issue. They cannot apply that to 5 DDs together; no matter where they leveled.

It is +10% attack... where did he say 10% damage output?

on the other topic, dont have ss of unbuffed ws ><

it was complete crap >< shocked warcry added damage even after food and zerk.

replay to edit: (the "you" is directed to Tenshibaby)

the only thing extra experience can do to one person is judging precuring. I told you before leveling the old way does not mean you are atomically better then someone that leeched.

it is more likely but not always the case.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Going from 700 to 770 Attack is less than a 10% increase in damage, not more.

---

If you think this is absolutely true it explains a lot about you.

And I manage to keep my parties cured quite well. Maybe in those "hopelessly unrealistic" situations where your Abyssea-leveled tank sucks, or your Abyssea-leveled haste-whoring DD's can't control their hate, maybe 1 WHM isn't enough to keep 5 DD's alive, but I've solo-healed full alliances before due to them being skilled players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

It is +10% attack... where did he say 10% damage output?

---

It is easily inferred the way he fit that into his comparison.

ITT: The game doesn't work by the math.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tenshibaby

If you think this is absolutely true it explains a lot about you.

And I manage to keep my parties cured quite well. Maybe in those "hopelessly unrealistic" situations where your Abyssea-leveled tank sucks, or your Abyssea-leveled haste-whoring DD's can't control their hate, maybe 1 WHM isn't enough to keep 5 DD's alive, but I've solo-healed full alliances before due to them being skilled players.


It is easily inferred the way he fit that into his comparison.

---

Attack has Decreasing returns. Where, in what dimension, on what planet, can a 10% increase in Attack correlate to greater than a 10% increase in damage? Seriously, you're beyond inept. What the hell sort of talk is this? "Haste whoring DDs can't control their hate"? Really?

And yes, I made an inferred correlation between Attack's relative increase and damage's relative increase. But I assumed that anyone with the ego you have would at least know the absolute basics of Attack and realize that 10% more attack must correlate to any number less than or equal to a 10% increase in damage. I did not give an exact value for the amount of damage increased because there was no example Monster specified to compare it to; I simply gave you the upper limit, putting things, yet again, in your favor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

the only thing extra experience can do to one person is judging precuring. I told you before leveling the old way does not mean you are atomically better then someone that leeched.

it is more likely but not always the case.

---

I agree it is not always the case, but to listen to these guys babbling you'd think the Abyssea leech is better until proven otherwise. After all, apparently, miraculously more people learn their jobs better by afk-ing for hours on end than those people who finished a good party 1/3 of the way closer to their next level.

I can say one thing about me leveling WHM as my first 75 over the course of a couple of years is that I have developed a semi-reliable internal timer where I have an excellent sense of when to re-cast things, if I am paying attention at least.

More people learn their jobs better through research and passing high school math classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tenshibaby

I can say one thing about me leveling WHM as my first 75 over the course of a couple of years is that I have developed a semi-reliable internal timer where I have an excellent sense of when to re-cast things, if I am paying attention at least.

---

Even Console/Non-Windower WHMs know that you can just recast 3 minute buffs (Haste, etc) 1 Vana'Diel hour later than the original cast =/. Or was that something you didn't learn exp'ing all those jobs up for your Maat's cap?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Attack has Decreasing returns. Where, in what dimension, on what planet, can a 10% increase in Attack correlate to greater than a 10% increase in damage? Seriously, you're beyond inept. What the hell sort of talk is this? "Haste whoring DDs can't control their hate"? Really?

---

Attack does not consistently have diminishing returns. Accuracy, yes, but not attack. It has occasional plateaus in calculating pDIF, but it more often has consistent increase in pDIF.
Here is a very simple explanation of how 10% increase in attack gives more than 10% increase in damage: Someone hitting for X damage against a high def mob for 0 damage. Maybe with that 10% they start hitting for 6-11 or so, but let's just say 1. 1 divided by 0 is undefined, but it is far higher than a 10% increase. Before you say this is rare blah blah blah, note I am pointing out the other extreme. It doesn't magically switch over to attack being "diminishing returns".

Physical damage increases proportionately with pDIF, which increases at about 120% of the atk/def ratio, depending on if it is at a plateau or not. For example, if your ATK is 300 and the mob's DEF is 250, the atk/def is 1.2. If your ATK goes to 330, it becomes 1.32. The pDIF will go from a 0.8-1.3 range to about a 1.0-1.5 range, which can be as high as 25% a difference. This is not the maximum by any stretch, just an example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Even Console/Non-Windower WHMs know that you can just recast 3 minute buffs (Haste, etc) 1 Vana'Diel hour later than the original cast =/. Or was that something you didn't learn exp'ing all those jobs up for your Maat's cap?

---

lol You really love making those Maat's cap digs for some reason, to which I can only speculate. I can assure yo I know all my jobs as well as I claim to, and while I know some better than others, I am more than qualified to hold my own on any of them. Unlike you, I learned and earned my jobs.
Of course I know that about the Vana'diel clock, but I don't need it or use it.

All of this fails to convey where you would use songs other than March/March and which songs they would be.

If you're going to argue something out of principle, at least make it something that isn't so heavily stacked against you.

Edit: And I exp'd my first jobs before Colibri even existed =/ Rdm, my 7th job, was the only one that got the Abyssea treatment. You seem to forget that fairly often.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tenshibaby

Physical damage increases proportionately with pDIF, which increases at about 120% of the atk/def ratio, depending on if it is at a plateau or not. For example, if your ATK is 300 and the mob's DEF is 250, the atk/def is 1.2. If your ATK goes to 330, it becomes 1.32. The pDIF will go from a 0.8-1.3 range to about a 1.0-1.5 range, which can be as high as 25% a difference. This is not the maximum by any stretch, just an example.

---

I'm not gonna do the math on it now because it's late at night, but how can that be as high as a 25% difference?

Really interested to see your character with all of the anti-haste talk. How antiquated.

EDIT: Is this you?

http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Gilgamesh/Tenshibaby#home

if so, you should stop right now.

I saw your comments earlier about beating most rdm's and tbh not so great guardian WHO CARES! its a game and by saying i beat everyone well good for being a kid trying to get attention. I am level 90 rdm i got it the hard way but im not against leaching if you actually learned about the job. tbh i have learned that rdm is not actually used much in abyssea thats why i leveled blu and others. All i can say is grow up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tarolin

I saw your comments earlier about beating most rdm's and tbh not so great guardian WHO CARES! its a game and by saying i beat everyone well good for being a kid trying to get attention. I am level 90 rdm i got it the hard way but im not against leaching if you actually learned about the job. tbh i have learned that rdm is not actually used much in abyssea thats why i leveled blu and others. All i can say is grow up.

---

How does it feel to have completely missed the entire point of that post?

what saying your better than most hard earned rdms um....... /poke

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tarolin

what saying your better than most hard earned rdms um....... /poke

---

The point was that how someone leveled doesn't determine how good/bad they are. Any good FFXI player can pick up any job in the game, leech it to 90, and be better than any random Trog in Jeuno that leveled the "real way". I could care less about my ego. The fact of the matter is that most people suck at FFXI. It's not hard to be better than 90% of the other players in the game just by performing at a basic level.

i laughed at most people suck at ff11 , you must not have much friends kid. And on that point im not going to bother with your not so valid comments. This is a game , people play to have fun and thats wat im going to do and many others regardless of skill level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tarolin

i laughed at most people suck at ff11 , you must not have much friends kid. And on that point im not going to bother with your not so valid comments. This is a game , people play to have fun and thats wat im going to do and many others regardless of skill level.

---

People playing to have fun don't bother me one bit. I'm not bitter, and I have plenty of fun with friends who I've known for a very long time now. But that doesn't mean the average person is good at the game, or plays their jobs well. "Well enough" for people with low standards? Sure. Some people value results more than the actual implementation, and that doesn't bother me. Getting a passing grade may be good enough for most people, but that doesn't make it an A.

Being friends with someone has nothing to do with their skill at FFXI. Friends are allowed to suck at video games. They don't suck less because they're friends. But by the same token they're no less of a friend because they suck. Why is it I always see people draw this connection when they're trying to talk down to "higher tier" players "who must have no lives/friends/social skills"? It's really rather sad.

Only thing sad is that people think there a higher tier and deserve more , im done with this convo. so go hang out with the so called higher tier.

There's a reason it was in quotes... Oh well. This thread is awesome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tarolin

Only thing sad is that people think there a higher tier and deserve more , im done with this convo. so go hang out with the so called higher tier.

---

Seriously? Did Everything he say completely go over your head =.=a? I can't understand if you're trolling or just genuinely don't understand whats going on.

anyone who thinks string instrument is unimportant needs to learn about aoe range with nursemaid's harp and lullaby @,@ that's all i'm saying

I'd read most of this thread and figured I'd throw in my 2 cents. I leveled WHM from 62 to 90 in Abyessa mainly because I was sick of the job in normal PT's OUTSIDE of Abyessa which I was forced to deal with gimps who had no idea that level 14 DEX Rings were not going to cut it in Colibri parties.

Now you could say I leeched it to 90 and I wouldn't give a shit because the way I play my WHM I've been told time and again that I play it a lot better then some people who have had it at 75 for years and beyond. It's an easy job that requires you to pay attention so the transition from RDM to WHM for me was just having Cure V and Cure VI which other then that made it easier to do.

Of course one thing which blew my mind a lot was how many WHMs I saw did NOT even have an Enfeebling Build for Slow, Paralyze or Silence. It only took me 3 minutes at most to write out a "decent" build and it makes my job a hell of a lot easier when shit can be slow'd and para'd when an RDM isn't around.

Generally like Greatguardian said, Abyessa in or out makes no damn difference in player skill. If they sucked before Abyessa then chances are they fucking sucked inside Abyessa.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SNK

If they sucked before Abyessa then chances are they fucking sucked inside Abyessa.

---

quoted for truth.
but it actually boils down to what greatguardian said in ANOTHER thread here

when he talks about crappy players getting better when around playing with good players.
the environment makes a lot of a difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yarly

quoted for truth.
but it actually boils down to what greatguardian said in ANOTHER thread here

when he talks about crappy players getting better when around playing with good players.
the environment makes a lot of a difference.

---

There's a problem with that tho. Even in a better enviroment, some players outright refuse to learn or realize that sometimes the shit they do is retarded and gimped.

There's a reason BG has a thread about gimps that's lasted around 25 remakes with 50+ pages each.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RaenRyong

EDIT: Is this you?

http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Gilgamesh/Tenshibaby#home

if so, you should stop right now.

---

Well since you are the one who doesn't know that 0.8 to 1.0 is a 25% increase, maybe it is YOU who should stop right now. You have nothing on my character, do you? If so, please elaborate. My character has been ranked mostly in the teens ranked on FFXIAH for years before Abyssea, which isn't amazing, but certainly keeps me from being gimp. Maybe you would be so kind as to show us your character, if you are not too ashamed?