Summoner in Colonization Reives = Broken

Let's not bring mothers into this ladies.

is he still here crying that he's being beat by SMN in reive???

seriously I wish SE just give them AOE cures outside of pt because then they'll get beaten down fast and be on the floor and then they'll complaint and want the AOE to be restricted to pt/ally only.

This whole thing is predicated on SMN's ability to AOE cure/buff people in reives. ALL of your arguments have been centered around this aspect. It has basically centered on curing specifically because that is what YOU made it about from the start. Don't sit there and try to make it like this ultimately does not boili down to credit given for hp recovery, ie methods of curing yourself and/or others. And I have not been focusing solely on WHM, I have repeatedly referenced other jobs that have such capabilities. WHM is just the job I tested with, the one that prompted YOU into coming here and requesting that SMN be nerfed because it impacted YOUR WHM's rewards. Or have you forgotten that you started tis entire thread because of the impact you saw on your WHM?

Here's a good question, and I seriously want to hear your answer. Upon discovering that these SMN's were impacting your rewards from curing others in reives...what was you next course of action to try to remedy the situation?

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So SMN must be exempt from the entire list (half of which was not posted) because as you state it, the only way SMN can perform is by mass curing the entire Reives population. Hypocrisy in the flesh.

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W T H? SMN must be exempt from what list? And I'm not saying the only way SMN can perform is by mass curing. I have been saying it is the most relevant way they can participate. I have not been the only one stating that by the way. I have stated that their offensive efforts are really low (I think "meh" was the term I used)--an argument you yourself put forth as a reason for mages NOT to melee. You asserted this even after a specific example was given, backed up by actual testing with a WHM...and a mediocre one at that. As for that hypocrosy statement....what you are claiming I have said is not hypocrosy, as it is not what I said. Down here we have a saying along the lines of the pot calling the kettle black.

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Notice the term "game element" and no where saying "class". It's been my position from the start that this is a change the the reives battle system. Also since the opposite of a nerf is a buff, this event "buffs" SMN and BST abilities. Since I want them to eliminate this feature this would be putting them back on neutral ground as it does not detract from their job/class abilities that they have anywhere else in the game. A "SMN nerf" would be me saying "SMN should be on a 2 minute BP timer" which would clearly be ludicrous and a nerf.

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Really. Are you aware of what is meant by the term game element in that definition? A job or job class is a game element. An event is a game element. A weapon is a game element. There are further definitions given, all pointing to reductions--be that potency, effectiveness, even desirability. A nerf can be made to make an activity less desirable (ie: the nerfed the return for selling choco-blinkers to disuade people from selling them). Really grasping for some straws on this argument. Also, it doesn't put them back to neutral ground as they are in every other aspect of the game. This is misleading simply because it applies in Campaign. But, that is a moot point. A nerf doesn't have to be a nerf across the scope of the entire game. It can be a focused tweak because of specific exploits. For example, landscape characteristics and how the affect pathing and provide safety for players has been accepted and used as a tactic in this game since it went live. But, it was getting abused in Abyssea, so one can technically say they nerfed the process of using elevation to avoid damage to discourage exploiting that tactic (just something that came to mind...I'm sure there are more specific adjustments made in other events that can be mentioned). This would be a nerf to and aspect of this particular event. It would reduce effectiveness of pets in this event, effectively reducing the masters from benefiting as strongly, and in effect dissuading the tactic. This is by definition a nerf. Unfortunately, it could well have the side effect of rendering the SMN job unfavorable as a whole in the event because of it's low returns on the offensive front---your own excuse for support jobs not going on the offensive. This would not impact BST in the same way, as it is better built for being up front and personal in battle--SMN on the other hand not currently set up well for this in reives (by comparison to more attractive options. Like you, many may not feel it is worth it...you have to be geared properly and really bust your @$$ just to get mediocre returns).

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I have not been blaming SMN. I have been blaming a targeting system that directly gives a buff to SMN and later I found out to BST or I would have included them in the beginning as well. The only time I mentioned WHM was in my initial experience and discovery of this. This has never been about 1 job vs another. Secondly I was only responding directly to your posts statement by statement, a mistake that I have stopped making as i've noticed you gloss over things you don't like in my responses and fail to mention them in yours.

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Umm.. yes... you have pinned this on SMN. And no, I don't gloss over your points. I just don't try to go through the post line for line like I am trying to do here...it's tedious. I just usually type as the thoughts come to me. Sometimes it's in order and happens to cover everything, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes my thoughts run ahead of my fingers and things get left out, and I go back and edit them in after the fact when I realized I left it out. And, haven't been portraying this solely as one job against the other...but you made it one job against a job class. Initially it was SMN vs WHM, but it evolved into SMN vs support, and eventually SMN vs. all jobs that it is in competition with as well as support vs. all jobs. That's what you don't seem to be acknowledging. Any jobs can be in competition for things at any point in time...but what you chose to focus on was SMN detracting from your specific rewards, and have been reluctant to accept that there is more one can do to earn acceptable rewards than that one task that was impacted by the presence of competition.

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I don't know how you have been talking to me for so long and still haven't grasped the point that this is about the targeting system and not rewards or the competition or SMN. I don't care if there are 6 rdm/whm/sch/geo there curing with me. We're on equal footing. Nothing to complain about there. And if SMN was there doing the same thing (with in those same limitations) I would welcome them.

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I don't know how you are not grasping the flaws in this approach with all the banter going on here. It doesn't put you on equal footing because it's 6 other mages. If 6 other jobs are doing the same thing as you versus one job doing it is still having a negative impact on your rewards for the same activity, and in the same scope because each instance for receiving credit has a cap that must be met for it to be redeemed. This cap is on a sliding scale, affected by progress in defeating the obstacle. If a SMN cures 10 people, which is what is needed to hit the cap, and 6 other people provide the same amount of healing and that is what is required to hit the cap---the end result in BOTH scenarios is that you get the same credit. With one exception. If the SMN has focused it's pet on the obstacle and is contributing respectable damage--the cap for that reward can increase. So, in theory, having a SMN there can actually net you MORE credits vs having 6 other mages for your competition (unless one is also beating a root or something). If none of this competition is present, yes.. you will potentially get more rewards. But to say you are on equal footing with a host of other mages competing vs a SMN may not necessarily be true.

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My two main challengers refuse to answer the question on their quest to make personal attacks and put words in my mouth. Do you support giving Accession and or Curaga (and extending the same courtesy to other support jobs such as Bard and Geomancer) the same targeting rules?

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Not sure where you get that we are putting words in your mouth. You've been quoted and referenced, and what you have said has been interpreted to mean different things perhaps...but I'm not sure I'd be saying someone has put words in your mouth. Personal attacks? Need to look in the mirror there. Extending cure tactics to reive participants could be a fix if it was actually warranted, but as has been repeatedly mentioned here, there are things a player can do to offset the losses within the exisitng framework. Interesting how you go right back to the curing aspect....you keep bringing it back to SMN's AOE curing being at issue, and your only focus is to counter that activity. Once again, I'll ask...what course of action did you take to remedy your losses when it happened to you?

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Your mother should have raised you better. Be polite now.

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Really. You're going to go there after stating you've received personal attacks. I have been trying my best not to call upon the Pimps Prayer in this thread. You just don't know how impolite people can be on this forum.

/facepalm

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Need to look in the mirror there. Extending cure tactics to reive participants could be a fix if it was actually warranted, but as has been repeatedly mentioned here, there are things a player can do to offset the losses within the exisitng framework. Once again, I'll ask...what course of action did you take to remedy your losses when it happened to you?

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Yes or no please. You suggested that other jobs should be buffed instead of taking abilities away from anyone else. Do you support that now that I put it out there.

I did address it. As I said, it could be a fix if it was warranted...

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Extending cure tactics to reive participants could be a fix if it was actually warranted, but as has been repeatedly mentioned here, there are things a player can do to offset the losses within the exisitng framework.

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Guess it didn't register. I'm not against it, but I don't think it's necessary as there is already something players can do to counter it. Time will tell whether it is rewarding enough, but I guess we won't know the answer to that question until more is understood about the reward system and people put things to the test.

Now, it's your turn.

Again... what was your first course of action once you realized your rewards from curing was reduced?

I didn't say you didn't address it. I asked you for a yes or no response.

grr....mods may be reviewing the thread or something. Likes and reply with quote suddenly started stalling out.

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I didn't say you didn't address it. I asked you for a yes or no response.

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My bad... should have opened that post with "I already addressed this". My stance should have been pretty selve evident, but since you didn't seem to catch it, I replied anyway.

Still waiting for an answer from my question.

Yes or no please. It could be up for interpretation and then i'll reply.

asked and answered....still waiting for the same courtesy.

What was your next course of action to try to remedy the situation once you realized your rewards from curing was being reduced by SMN participation?

That's okay. I guess we can continue when you're more cooperative but that probably won't happen.

My answer was pretty clear. Not sure how that is being uncooperative. Sorry if you are having trouble with a detailed reply. Or perhaps the problem is you don't like the answer because it poses a challenge to your whole premise you are using to justify the change.

Why won't you answer my question? After all, I asked it first. I went ahead and addressed your question. Why won't you tell us what you chose to do when faced with competition for curing? Is it because you didn't try anything different in game? Did you feel your only option was to come here and request that SMN be nerfed?

Things that make you go "hmmm....."

Because I need a definitive answer. Too much room between the lines for you to wiggle between as soon as the conversation starts going where you don't like it.

Do you support a suggestion you made yourself. Yes or No?

Already answered it.

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I'm not against it, but I don't think it's necessary as there is already something players can do to counter it.

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There.. took off some of the extra text in the post. Think that's pretty definitive.

Still waiting for an answer to my question. Or should we just assume that in fact you didn't try anything different and are simply sticking to reives being broken becauseof SMN?

IF that's wrong, I apologize in advance... but that's what happens when you don't clarify things. People start interpreting things as they see them, and sometimes will get it wrong.

So...what did you do to try to remedy your situation?

You replied but you didn't answer me. Your reply is completely subjective and can mean anything you want it to at any given time. I'm forced to come to my own conclusions. We will proceed when I have a yes or no answer which is a definitive answer. Until then you may have the last word as I know you will need it to feel satisfied.

good grief... you already answered the question yourself when you asked it.

And my answer is definitive. What is so hard to understand about the words "I'm not against it"? are you confused because it has the word "against" in it, making you think that I am in fact against it? Find it hard to believe that any one above grade school reading level could misconstrue my statement.

Guess you're just being adversarial because you've been caught in a proverbial catch 22 and can't answer my question without making yourself look bad? ...who knows. But I've answered your question that had already been addressed before you even posed the question (which effectively answered it the way you phrased it). You just refuse to accept it. Is it becasuse my position doesn't fall in line with a narrative you want to pursue? At least I am willing to participate in the dialogue, regardless of where it goes.

[Edit:]
As a side note... getting hard to be inspired to do reives in general. At least not during primetime. Way too many people. Reives are just going down too quick...sitting idle through most of some of them on NIN just trying draw my weapons and fight a mob for more than 5 seconds. May be the bigger issue SE needs to address here....earnings just fall apart with large groups doing them simply because they don't last.

my word... Have these people been taking Al lessons? lol... you guys sure know how to make a lengthy back-and-forth.

Looking at that makes me feel like I can better identify when its time to quit whilst behind. :p

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Originally Posted by Caketime

SMN has just as many options as WHM, get some DA pieces and wear a couple of accuracy rings, maybe chew on some sushi and beat roots while you spam buffs and cures. Stop acting like you have no options other than spamming Wards.

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Double attack and accuracy on a SMN? WTF did I just read? Are we just throwing meat-head DD logic onto everything now. Not to mention the severe lack of refresh and perp cost - means you'd run out of MP in probably under a minute. You can proc DA 100% of the time and it won't help one dang bit if you spend half the fight eating dirt.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

When I do Reives on my pink DNC, big boys come along and kill the mob that I've been fighting for 5 mins and got down to 90%HP. Thus meaning I don't get as many points. Can we make it so that noone else can touch my mob please so I can get more points?

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I can't believe that this thread is still going on. If this idiot whm was any good at his job, his party would be quite happy to use /blockaid to allow them to be exclusively cured by him.

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Originally Posted by Xerius

Double attack and accuracy on a SMN? WTF did I just read? Are we just throwing meat-head DD logic onto everything now. Not to mention the severe lack of refresh and perp cost - means you'd run out of MP in probably under a minute. You can proc DA 100% of the time and it won't help one dang bit if you spend half the fight eating dirt.

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Yes, melee SMN. It's not a new concept, you get 100%TP, then you use this to recover some MP. And nowadays, if you're lucky enough to have a Hvergelmir, you can use this instead for a lot of MP recovery. Without Hvergelmir, you may need to occasionally use Elemental Siphon, refresh or sublimation.

With capped gear haste, haste spell and Hvergelmir, you can WS every 39 seconds, assuming you never miss, and DA never procs. More than enough to keep 2 wards every 45 seconds + perp cost.

all I'm saying leave summoners alone and if smn is not your main please die else where lol

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Originally Posted by Xerius

Double attack and accuracy on a SMN? WTF did I just read? Are we just throwing meat-head DD logic onto everything now. Not to mention the severe lack of refresh and perp cost - means you'd run out of MP in probably under a minute. You can proc DA 100% of the time and it won't help one dang bit if you spend half the fight eating dirt.

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I know, I'm a terrible person for suggesting you climb out of your box for a moment.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I can't believe that this thread is still going on. If this idiot whm was any good at his job, his party would be quite happy to use /blockaid to allow them to be exclusively cured by him.



Yes, melee SMN. It's not a new concept, you get 100%TP, then you use this to recover some MP. And nowadays, if you're lucky enough to have a Hvergelmir, you can use this instead for a lot of MP recovery. Without Hvergelmir, you may need to occasionally use Elemental Siphon, refresh or sublimation.

With capped gear haste, haste spell and Hvergelmir, you can WS every 39 seconds, assuming you never miss, and DA never procs. More than enough to keep 2 wards every 45 seconds + perp cost.

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Blockaid doesn't work in this. You're very presumptive about a lot of things. And if you can't believe this thread is still going on then refrain from posting and it will die out.

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Originally Posted by Xerius

Double attack and accuracy on a SMN? WTF did I just read? Are we just throwing meat-head DD logic onto everything now. Not to mention the severe lack of refresh and perp cost - means you'd run out of MP in probably under a minute. You can proc DA 100% of the time and it won't help one dang bit if you spend half the fight eating dirt.

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>_____________________________> @ this post.

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Originally Posted by Xerius

Double attack and accuracy on a SMN? WTF did I just read? Are we just throwing meat-head DD logic onto everything now. Not to mention the severe lack of refresh and perp cost - means you'd run out of MP in probably under a minute. You can proc DA 100% of the time and it won't help one dang bit if you spend half the fight eating dirt.

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Alternatively, you can use SMN's reasonable selection of high level battle mage gear, use Spirit Taker or Myrkr (Gates of Tartarus if you're a real boss) to recover MP and stop failing at your job.

With a post as misguided as this, I was going to say you're like, the personification of the official forums - except that's obviously not true. OFs are generally all over SMN melee.

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Originally Posted by Xerius

Double attack and accuracy on a SMN? WTF did I just read? Are we just throwing meat-head DD logic onto everything now. Not to mention the severe lack of refresh and perp cost - means you'd run out of MP in probably under a minute. You can proc DA 100% of the time and it won't help one dang bit if you spend half the fight eating dirt.

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You have obviously never tried doing this, because you have no idea. I don't usually go all-out melee gear, leaving on my AF body and a few other items, but MP is never an issue when you're meleeing, especially if you have relic or empyrean staff, or one of the new ones with ridiculous damage. Spirit taker, Myrkr, o GoT whenever your MP is low is plenty enough to keep you running.

I'm agreeing 100% with Alhanelem on something! What is this!

Well, love or hate meleeing, there is no denying it will improve your evaluations- this is true for all jobs, regardless of whether they have spells to cast or not. You can cast spells and melee in a reieve. it's completely doable. People are just too insistent on "its a mage, u cant melee" and ignoring the simple truth that regardless of how good it is or you think it is, you'll earn more bayld.

Ugh just give the op a yes or no and he might just quit belly aching. Though I highly doubt it

I used to melee in SMN all the time and I'll admit it works great... if the mobs are 10~15 levels lower than you and they don't spam harsh AoE damage. Of course meleeing on any job can net you some extra Bayld but mage's tend to be squishy and that's why the term (Back line job) exists. Because if you've ever tried meleeing on most of the mage jobs in any event geared towards your level, with a few exceptions you're going to end up on your ass.

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Originally Posted by Xerius

I used to melee in SMN all the time and I'll admit it works great... if the mobs are 10~15 levels lower than you and they don't spam harsh AoE damage. Of course meleeing on any job can net you some extra Bayld but mage's tend to be squishy and that's why the term (Back line job) exists. Because if you've ever tried meleeing on most of the mage jobs in any event geared towards your level, with a few exceptions you're going to end up on your ass.

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"harsh AoE damage" is a problem to all jobs, not just SMN, and I have no problem meleeing mobs above my level, not just "10 - 15 levels lower." Beyond that, no AoEs in colonization reieves are THAT bad, and people will be spamming garuda's heal and cures anyway.

What were you trying to melee with? an elemental staff? A weapon with half the base damage of an actual staff intended for meleeing? With even just a decent DD staff and little else in the way of offensive gear, you can outdamage your avatar by a substantial margin (it really isn't hard at all to beat your avatar, lol); in a reieve, your primary target, the wall, doesn't attack back, and if you only attack monsters other people are fighting, the odds you'll pull hate are slim.

Find an actual melee staff, get shattersoul, and be suprised. Stop making excuses and just do it.

Makes me want to build a battle mage....

Shattersoul is pretty damn epic lol

Try this, and enjoy.

I'm intrigued as to whether anyone else has better sets too.

I switched to getting Bayld on SMN from BLU for the reasons many don't seem to want to fully admit. SMN is able to achieve very high evaluations both throughout the over all fight, and the end evaluation. Often getting very high EXP evaluation totals that are well above the final Bayld eval reward.

A few people have touched on this already in various ways but its important to note why SMNs are bothering to show up:

Like any other player, we're hungry for Bayld. 100k Wildskeeper KIs, gear, augments etc. It adds up, and its allot.

And like any effecient player, I will ask myself: What job gets me the most Bayld for the time invested?

I can't deal enough damage to get a decent evaluation on BLU, when most of the people out there can double my damage output with Relic/Emp WS or even Wildskeeper weapons, the Reive object, be it roots, or rocks, die very fast.

Leaving you with less than 500exp/bayld when enough rock smashers show up and race to finish the object's destruction attempting to do the same they do 'Smash allot, and fast,' which of course many can't.

Maybe I can help with getting monsters dead?

Nope. For the same reasons Single Target, or Single Party healers get frustrated with Summoners, those of us among the 'I just don't want to stand in front of a rock and smash it DPS race' get frustrated with Paladins. I'd like to kill the monster to output some offense, and maybe generate some heals/support scores in the process. I can't survive the AoE spam that many Reive mobs have, in the heart of Paladin tanking country.

I know the 'just stand in front of object and swing crowd' loves a good Paladin that can just hold the monsters the whole Reive, but again, hey single target healers, where is the argument that only 1 player receiving any damage the whole fight leaves room for more than 1 healer/support class to make any meaningful bayld/exp?

I'm extremely happy for Paladins resurgence, and I hope people start to realize that a PLD being good, is also a strong indication that RDM should be back in the plan too.

The heart of this argument is that there needs to be a better way for all jobs to be evaluated on their participation in the event. Not just those geared enough for peak performance, be it Taking Damage, Dealing Damage, or Multi-Target event wide Heals from a Summoner.

Any DD with a -DT set and /DNC can solo a mob (or two).

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Originally Posted by Lithera

Ugh just give the op a yes or no and he might just quit belly aching. Though I highly doubt it

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He won't give a yes or no answer because he's trying to say yes and no at the same time. Just look at the context of those few posts.

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Originally Posted by Pug

I switched to getting Bayld on SMN from BLU for the reasons many don't seem to want to fully admit. SMN is able to achieve very high evaluations both throughout the over all fight, and the end evaluation. Often getting very high EXP evaluation totals that are well above the final Bayld eval reward.

A few people have touched on this already in various ways but its important to note why SMNs are bothering to show up:

Like any other player, we're hungry for Bayld. 100k Wildskeeper KIs, gear, augments etc. It adds up, and its allot.

And like any effecient player, I will ask myself: What job gets me the most Bayld for the time invested?

I can't deal enough damage to get a decent evaluation on BLU, when most of the people out there can double my damage output with Relic/Emp WS or even Wildskeeper weapons, the Reive object, be it roots, or rocks, die very fast.

Leaving you with less than 500exp/bayld when enough rock smashers show up and race to finish the object's destruction attempting to do the same they do 'Smash allot, and fast,' which of course many can't.

Maybe I can help with getting monsters dead?

Nope. For the same reasons Single Target, or Single Party healers get frustrated with Summoners, those of us among the 'I just don't want to stand in front of a rock and smash it DPS race' get frustrated with Paladins. I'd like to kill the monster to output some offense, and maybe generate some heals/support scores in the process. I can't survive the AoE spam that many Reive mobs have, in the heart of Paladin tanking country.

I know the 'just stand in front of object and swing crowd' loves a good Paladin that can just hold the monsters the whole Reive, but again, hey single target healers, where is the argument that only 1 player receiving any damage the whole fight leaves room for more than 1 healer/support class to make any meaningful bayld/exp?

I'm extremely happy for Paladins resurgence, and I hope people start to realize that a PLD being good, is also a strong indication that RDM should be back in the plan too.

The heart of this argument is that there needs to be a better way for all jobs to be evaluated on their participation in the event. Not just those geared enough for peak performance, be it Taking Damage, Dealing Damage, or Multi-Target event wide Heals from a Summoner.

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A good non-objective look. I fully agree!

I tend to go drg/rdm for reives to get the most bayld. I don't have relic/emp/mythic, but I do have a dam good +HP set, and some nice (non-NNI unfortunately) gear.

When I team up with one of the best SMNs that I know, I still come out with more than he does, so I must be doing something right. I almost exclusively avoid killing the roots, in an attempt to make the fight last slightly longer, but I know the job well, I can maximise my own damage, my pet's damage, and my pet's curing. If I get agro from 2-3 mobs, I have a fairly good -PDT set (38%).

I can get a little annoyed when my HP drops just below 50% (of max geared HP) so I hit barwhatever macro to trigger healing breath, just as someone cures me, or a whispering wind hits. Thus I wasted 6 MP and a little time, but not to worry, it's not going to affect my overall score all that much.

The point is, I have just about all jobs at 99, and 9-10 of them are geared well enough to use properly. What would be stupid of me is to go to rieves on 1 of them, find that it sucks due to whatever reason (in this case smn spamming cures to everyone ever 45 seconds) and continue to use that job but whinge about the job that's spoiling my reward.

The better option by far is to find a better job to use for reives. And if that means swapping to SMN, then so be it. If you haven't already unlocked smn for whatever reason, all the better. Then you'll find out that it's by far the hardest/most long-winded job to unlock; it's the hardest/most longwinded job to skill up; it's never really wanted for most events, except for campaign, WoE and now reives. What you wouldn't see unfortunately, is the pain that many of us went through trying to get to 75 back in the days when everyone wanted us to help them to kill Kirin, but they weren't prepared to invite us to an exp party to hit 75.

And once you get smn to 99 and maybe get it's skill capped, you can join the rest of us waiting for avatars, updates/upgrades that we keep getting promised but never see.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

He won't give a yes or no answer because he's trying to say yes and no at the same time. Just look at the context of those few posts.

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Oh boy... guess you really are as dense as I feared...

I'm not giving a yes or no answer, because my position doesn't fit either answer. I am not against them extending cures outward from the party in the event, I just don't feel it is waranted. The more I think about it, it probably won't resolve the problem in the long run. It might satisfy some people in the short term...but it would just be a matter of time before healing got oversaturated again and we'd be right back her again. As I view it, healing rewards are fine...the problem is more that there are other categories that need enhancement (this has also been brought up by others).

The biggest problem with what this thread was/is focused on is that the problem and the solution does not lie in the healing aspect per se, but more a problem with the unfair balance across the event. DD, Healing, and DT are the kings right now. The other 7 categories are crud, and need to be brought up to par with the other 3. In theory their formulas may have been fine, but human nature did not factor into their math and the event is likely not working out as they intended it to. The losses incurred due to that oversaturation of any one categore SHOULD be potentially offset with the other 9 categories, provided one is able to get decent rewards from them instead. If they were to review this and decide to directly tweak the event categories somehow, I honestly think they would get more bang for the buck by doing things to make the other categories more rewarding. That way, everyone can freely switch roles when one is getting overrun.

I simply think if they were to do anything to directly affect rewards, it should be more about balancing the rest of the event across the board against the 3 grossly over used methods that currently reign supreme. THAT solution, I would say yes... I wholely support. What you proposed (extending AOE cure options outside party) may resolve some issues in the short term, but in the end may just put us back in the same boat, just under a different flag. So, no, I'm not adverse to them extending the AOE cure mechanism to other jobs...it could make the reives even easier to complete. But making them easier would further exacerbate an even biggger problem: the rampant locust swarm approach currently being taken to complete reives. Because of that, no, I can't say I'd be lobbying for it...but I wouldn't get upset if they allowed it.

That is another issue that needs to seriously be addressed. Sure, SE didn't want us to simply waltz in and solo/low-man the reives. I totally get that. The problem is, the event was not made to scale with a massive group participating. It should have been scaled upwards in difficulty somehow once the group reaches a certain point. Various theories could be applied here...from the simplest thing like making the obstructions regen hp like fortifications a few times before going away (efeectively making the fight longer), or directly affecting it's defences by making the mobs respawn stronger, or more of them...possibly even making a mini-boss type pop. Something...anything...when it gets to be 3 or more alliances worth of people in there, it's simply hard for a lot of people get a leg up in there at times.

There are a lot of things wrong with the reives mechanics....but healing really isn't one of them.

Still waiting on an answer to my question, by the way. Interesting how yours has been covered multiple times by multiple users, yet you still have yet to respond once to a direct question asked of you....

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I tend to go drg/rdm for reives to get the most bayld. I don't have relic/emp/mythic, but I do have a dam good +HP set, and some nice (non-NNI unfortunately) gear.

When I team up with one of the best SMNs that I know, I still come out with more than he does, so I must be doing something right. I almost exclusively avoid killing the roots, in an attempt to make the fight last slightly longer, but I know the job well, I can maximise my own damage, my pet's damage, and my pet's curing. If I get agro from 2-3 mobs, I have a fairly good -PDT set (38%).

I can get a little annoyed when my HP drops just below 50% (of max geared HP) so I hit barwhatever macro to trigger healing breath, just as someone cures me, or a whispering wind hits. Thus I wasted 6 MP and a little time, but not to worry, it's not going to affect my overall score all that much.

The point is, I have just about all jobs at 99, and 9-10 of them are geared well enough to use properly. What would be stupid of me is to go to rieves on 1 of them, find that it sucks due to whatever reason (in this case smn spamming cures to everyone ever 45 seconds) and continue to use that job but whinge about the job that's spoiling my reward.

The better option by far is to find a better job to use for reives. And if that means swapping to SMN, then so be it. If you haven't already unlocked smn for whatever reason, all the better. Then you'll find out that it's by far the hardest/most long-winded job to unlock; it's the hardest/most longwinded job to skill up; it's never really wanted for most events, except for campaign, WoE and now reives. What you wouldn't see unfortunately, is the pain that many of us went through trying to get to 75 back in the days when everyone wanted us to help them to kill Kirin, but they weren't prepared to invite us to an exp party to hit 75.

And once you get smn to 99 and maybe get it's skill capped, you can join the rest of us waiting for avatars, updates/upgrades that we keep getting promised but never see.

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Nice try...afraid short-sightedness may be preventing the bigger picture from getting through though.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Oh boy... guess you really are as dense as I feared...

I'm not giving a yes or no answer, because my position doesn't fit either answer. I am not against them extending cures outward from the party in the event, I just don't feel it is waranted. The more I think about it, it probably won't resolve the problem in the long run. It might satisfy some people in the short term...but it would just be a matter of time before healing got oversaturated again and we'd be right back her again. As I view it, healing rewards are fine...the problem is more that there are other categories that need enhancement (this has also been brought up by others).

The biggest problem with what this thread was/is focused on is that the problem and the solution does not lie in the healing aspect per se, but more a problem with the unfair balance across the event. DD, Healing, and DT are the kings right now. The other 7 categories are crud, and need to be brought up to par with the other 3. In theory their formulas may have been fine, but human nature did not factor into their math and the event is likely not working out as they intended it to. The losses incurred due to that oversaturation of any one categore SHOULD be potentially offset with the other 9 categories, provided one is able to get decent rewards from them instead. If they were to review this and decide to directly tweak the event categories somehow, I honestly think they would get more bang for the buck by doing things to make the other categories more rewarding. That way, everyone can freely switch roles when one is getting overrun.

I simply think if they were to do anything to directly affect rewards, it should be more about balancing the rest of the event across the board against the 3 grossly over used methods that currently reign supreme. THAT solution, I would say yes... I wholely support. What you proposed (extending AOE cure options outside party) may resolve some issues in the short term, but in the end may just put us back in the same boat, just under a different flag. So, no, I'm not adverse to them extending the AOE cure mechanism to other jobs...it could make the reives even easier to complete. But making them easier would further exacerbate an even biggger problem: the rampant locust swarm approach currently being taken to complete reives. Because of that, no, I can't say I'd be lobbying for it...but I wouldn't get upset if they allowed it.

That is another issue that needs to seriously be addressed. Sure, SE didn't want us to simply waltz in and solo/low-man the reives. I totally get that. The problem is, the event was not made to scale with a massive group participating. It should have been scaled upwards in difficulty somehow once the group reaches a certain point. Various theories could be applied here...from the simplest thing like making the obstructions regen hp like fortifications a few times before going away (efeectively making the fight longer), or directly affecting it's defences by making the mobs respawn stronger, or more of them...possibly even making a mini-boss type pop. Something...anything...when it gets to be 3 or more alliances worth of people in there, it's simply hard for a lot of people get a leg up in there at times.

There are a lot of things wrong with the reives mechanics....but healing really isn't one of them.

Still waiting on an answer to my question, by the way. Interesting how yours has been covered multiple times by multiple users, yet you still have yet to respond once to a direct question asked of you....

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I'm dense but you're the one that can't answer a simple question yes or no. That's rich. You're trying to have your cake and eat it to.

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Already answered it.

I'm not against it, but I don't think it's necessary as there is already something players can do to counter it.
There.. took off some of the extra text in the post. Think that's pretty definitive.

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That implies "No" with a hint of "Maybe".

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Need to look in the mirror there. Extending cure tactics to reive participants could be a fix if it was actually warranted, but as has been repeatedly mentioned here, there are things a player can do to offset the losses within the exisitng framework. Once again, I'll ask...what course of action did you take to remedy your losses when it happened to you?

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Again implying "No"

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I did address it. As I said, it could be a fix if it was warranted...

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Strongly implying "No"

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And my answer is definitive. What is so hard to understand about the words "I'm not against it"? are you confused because it has the word "against" in it, making you think that I am in fact against it? Find it hard to believe that any one above grade school reading level could misconstrue my statement.

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Leaving out "But it's not warranted at this time"

Strongly implying "Yes".

I guess i'm dense but you're the one flip-flopping more than Mitt Romney. How could anyone know your position.

You said it's just addressing SMN but now that i've tried shifting focus to improving the other mages you can't give a straight answer and you say (3 times out of 4) "NO" don't do it. Don't buff the other jobs even though you yourself suggested it as well.

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Really. Are you aware of what is meant by the term game element in that definition? A job or job class is a game element. An event is a game element. A weapon is a game element. There are further definitions given, all pointing to reductions--be that potency, effectiveness, even desirability. A nerf can be made to make an activity less desirable (ie: the nerfed the return for selling choco-blinkers to disuade people from selling them)

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Why quote the dictionary if you're just going to go with your own definition anyways? Clearly you understand there are different kinds of game elements. Since the element is with in the Reives system and not SMN or BST it's not a job nerf. If anything i'd give you that it's an event nerf.

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W T H? SMN must be exempt from what list? And I'm not saying the only way SMN can perform is by mass curing. I have been saying it is the most relevant way they can participate. I have not been the only one stating that by the way. I have stated that their offensive efforts are really low (I think "meh" was the term I used)--an argument you yourself put forth as a reason for mages NOT to melee. You asserted this even after a specific example was given, backed up by actual testing with a WHM...and a mediocre one at that. As for that hypocrosy statement....what you are claiming I have said is not hypocrosy, as it is not what I said. Down here we have a saying along the lines of the pot calling the kettle black.

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Yes that's exactly what you've been saying is that SMN can only mass cure or get no rewards. When you tell me to use the list off wiki to boost my END EVALUATION reward you say it's useful, when I tell you to use it to do the same, you say it's worthless. Yep i'm still the one confused though.

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Here's a good question, and I seriously want to hear your answer. Upon discovering that these SMN's were impacting your rewards from curing others in reives...what was you next course of action to try to remedy the situation?

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I stopped coming on a mage job and started raping the trees/vines/rocks with everyone else.

Please try to keep your arguments short and to the point. I can't keep picking out the meaningful points from your personal feelings and insults.