Level 99 Relic, Mythic, Empyrean, and WoE Weapons

oh ya forgot to mention I'm going to finish my mythics/relics/empys anyway I don't really care about this "issue" I just do them for fun anyway... or did we forget this isn't a job

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

maybe you should stop jumping to conclusions and assumptions and actually have some self respect.

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then use words that don't make people jump to conclusions

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Originally Posted by Aldaris

I think they are doing to the game what the US govt is doing to America. Sabotage it so that they can move on to bigger and better things....they got rush of cash flow they wanted from the expansion...now they done lol

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you know, I *might* have thought about that, but then I realized, FFXIV isn't up yet, all their other games crashed, this is kind of their last line of defense... and thats why they are actually communicating some form of solution to us, if that was the case they'd just release it as is until the playerbase just choked itself on the vine. so I'm sure it was just a mistake since they have no other *good* form of revenue...

sorry forgot to say, they've already seraded this golden egg goose, and magically kept it alive (THANK GOD I couldn't live without this), now they accidentally whacked it with a hammer, so they just need to figure how to keep it alive again

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Originally Posted by Areayea

oh ya forgot to mention I'm going to finish my mythics/relics/empys anyway I don't really care about this "issue" I just do them for fun anyway... or did we forget this isn't a job

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I forgot it wasn't a job back when it started taking 40 hours a week to keep up with my LS events.


EDIT: Oh and for those that wanna fight

http://www.skype.com/en/

Call / IM each other and have at it. No one else knows / cares what you are arguing about.

Just having the weapons skills of R/E becoming more common usage doesn't really address the issue with the R/M/E weapons compared to the new Delve weapons.

I don't think any R/M/E holders are against weapon progression, the problem here lies with the fact that there are new weapons that can be put on the AH that outclasses them by a good margin. What you have to look at with the Relic and Mythic weapons, is they were designed to be the best, and they took years to make, and even now are a significant time investment. Plus there are people like me that don't currently have a R/M/E, but with having played off and on since 2002 they have always been something I wanted to get, and I don't like how they are being handled currently. More because I understand the large amount of time and gil put into acquiring one, and it really makes it hard to justify working towards one when I could just go farm gil and wait til one of new AH-able weapons show up at a price I think is worthwhile and have a better weapon.

One thing about FFXI's design I have always liked, is if you could get the end game weapons built they stayed relevant, which also gave those who wanted one a constant goal to work towards. And if they keep this unique trait going, the R/M/E's don't always have to be the absolute best, but they should stay in the very top tier. It helps keep diversity in the game. I don't know about the rest of you, but I would rather have end-end game events be R/M/E/? instead of X only.

I for one (and maybe many others, I haven't read this whole thread, and pardon me If what I'm saying has been said before) am NOT in support of this unlocking relic ws's idea. I'm sorry, if i just wanted the ws, I'd use the aby relic ws weapons. I worked for the better part of a year to get my apocalypse, and to see it lowered to the position of a glorified nyzul isle weapon is disappointing to say the least. No offense to you guys, I understand you're working hard trying to come up with things to keep players invested, but I think you jumped the shark with these way overpowered delve weapons. make more powerful weapons, sure, but not fully 100 dmg over the current best weapon! Us RMEC owners made them for a reason.

Sure, you can say that since they made them easier to get that almost everyone has one now, and that these new weapons are for the elite few who have the manpower and resources to get them. but even in that case, your setting those of us with less connections up for frustration by being denied to do content because we're 'gimped'. You know it will happen. It happened with VW and Legion. "no RME, no invite" I've seen it tons of times! I'm saying you are setting yourselves up to lose a LOT of subscribers with these delve weapons. Sure, I know you want people to keep playing, and giving better rewards is a good thing, but dear god, don't obsolete EVERYTHING from the past 10 years of expansions and updates. I'd personally prefer you lower the power of these delve weapons by about 25%, and make plans so we can upgrade our RMEC weapons accordingly. Here's an idea: how about making it possible to use the airlixers and plasma to set upgrade paths for the RMECs? In the same kind of vein as the new armor. path 1: acc boosts path 2: dmg boosts, path 3: some kind of combination of acc and att, or enhance the aftermath effects? let the people who have RMEC choose their own enhancements for their weapon, more customization is a good thing.

I hope I didn't come off too harshly, but seriously, this needs to be addressed or I foresee a lot of people quiting the game.

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Originally Posted by Kojo

Why did this thread de-digivolve to us insulting each other instead of complaining for a common goal?

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I'd rather side with the dev than listen to a bunch of screaming from people that can't read a politically worded statement without rioting.

Camate had to come out and tell people to calm down and read because they didn't the first time. And Matsui had to post this originally because people were jumping to wild conclusions about the future of the game they aren't developing and have no insight into the development of.

Forums are designed as a way to share ideas and leave commentary. People on the internet have no manners and can't behave like rational adults. They think it's ok to scream, threaten, and fling poo. Wow people are bored enough to rage against the people trying to give them something to relieve them of their boredom. Pretty ungrateful if you ask me.

They started to give us actual transparency in the last couple of years on the development of this game and thus far we have rewarded them as a whole with discontent. It's a very poor showing to punish someone for giving you what you asked for instead of asking them for something different because you don't think it would make the game better.

I'm bored too, but this expansion (regardless of it's dubious nature as just a capital raising scheme) is pretty darn fun and was a nice surprise. I like this release a lot more than original release, CoP, and Aht Urhgan. I didn't play for release of WotG or Aby and came back after FFXIV failed miserably. Why can't people just play the game?

Instead of people just PLAYING THE GAME and having fun, they are sewing discontent and getting entirely too political about this. I laugh at this communities' over active sense of entitlement. They threaten that they will stop paying for their accounts when we all know the reason they are saying that is because they want attention. If they were really going somewhere else, they would have left already and either left an overly dramatic 'I quit' post that no one would care about or wouldn't have said anything at all and be gone.

If you're posting on this forum, you're still drinking the coolaid and still stuck on the crack that this dealer is selling. So stop acting like you're not and have enough self respect to share some with the rest of the people posting as well. You want to create a clear message for the devs? Make a good enough post that everyone 'likes' it. The first poster that posted could have easily said, 'Matsui, I think that is a terrible idea and it would make me less happy to play the game possibly to the point that I would stop playing it.' Then everyone could have liked it and not needed to add a bunch of 1 liners about quitting and being unreasonable and ungrateful.

How impact-ful do you think a post with 500+ likes looks to the devs?

We are a much better community than most MMOs. That's why we are all here. FFXI is a much better game than most MMOs or at least we think it is or, once again, we wouldn't be here. Almost all of us are FF fanboys and fangirls and we love this series and we love this particular part of the series because it was more than just a stand alone title. The devs are our friends and we should treat them with more respect than we do. They want to give us a game that continually progresses so that we don't get bored and we want a game the rewards dedication & hard work, but is also fun to play.

It pretty clear how much we all love our RMEs. They require hard work, dedication, and they are fun to use when we get them completed. The other communities are saying the same thing as us. They will get the message. Don't you think it would be a better use of our time trying to support a team that is trying to make us a better game then going to war with them so that they squander their limited resources trying to fight us off?

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My suggestion would be to use Delve as a system, much like the magian trials, to upgrade a wide variety of gear and weapons including RME, Artifact, and Salvage gear. It ill behooves you to replace those standards with something that does not add more diversity and variety to the game. If you want to make new weapons, at least go from the perspective of adding options instead of making another weapon that is generically the best.

The new Dagger for DNC is a godsend because they had no ability to progress past their previous point because dagger were poorly suited for their strengths and accentuated their weaknesses. For swords you could attach the Campaign WS, Uriel Blade, onto whatever monstrosity that Delve will put out as a Prestige Weapon so that RDM, BLU, and PLD could have a MAB WS of prominence instead of just another physical WS. Looking for variety in this new system instead of just blatantly better and the same would be a very positive step to winning over your communities' confidence, something your predecessor never accomplished and failed miserably at in FFXIV. Building on the game's roots is essential for the continued longevity of the game.

I do like how a lot of the new gear looks and you will get my applause for that, (Xux hat and pants are awesome). Most of the gear is always geared for DPS, but with a large amount of reaction from the community for how tough some of the new content is, wouldn't it make sense to release gear that increases the player's personal longevity? Would Haste with PDT be so much to ask for?

We ask for everything you can give us and more, but that's only because we are having fun and enjoying ourselves.

Thank you very much.

Manaking, in all seriousness, listen to yourself. You forget that Matsui, with just two updates less than three months apart, completely raped the entire playerbase and gave us no reason presently to bother with making RMEC weapons. It's not that the new Delve weapons are "a little bit better", it's that they have almost a full 100+ base damage over the RMEC weapons that has people enraged and threatening to quit the game.

For example, I was thinking about taking a Masamune I had recently brought up to the lv.85 stage up to 90 and beyond, but after seeing the Delve weapons I'm questioning myself as to whether I should continue to sink the time and effort of going down that road or just saying f*** it, give up now and /toss it, maybe even go so far as to quit a game that's brought me entertainment for close to seven years. That's how badly the Delve weapons have affected the playerbase.

This is coming from someone who was there in the Dunes at least a year and a half (that I can remember) before level sync, which came before FoV books and SMN burn pts, before GoV and Abyssea key-burn leveling, who saw WoTG go from being a "oh, here's a campaign battle for you to enjoy" expansion to having actual content to it. Even when Empyrean weapons came out and blew Relics out of the water, and the enraged playerbase made SE add Magian trials to keep the Relics relevant and give them a reason to keep making them.

Earlier in the week there was a gleam of hope that Matsui would keep our hard-earned RMEs relevant in the post-Delve FFXI, but as of this thread and what Camate has translated for us, that hope I once saw has now gone up like the smoke I usually exhale from puffing a cigar. If his only answer to keeping the RMEs relevant is to make them the new "mythic base weapon" and we can do a quest to keep the WS from them, then he clearly has no idea of what the playerbase wants.
We want to KEEP what we've worked so hard to build for RME weapons. We don't use them just for the WS, but for the stats! For the return in damage and stats based off the time, gil and effort invested into the weapon itself. For Matsui to misunderstand the playerbase so grossly shows ignorance of the customers as well as complete incompetence on his part, and he should either freely step down of his own accord or someone higher up in SE's chain of command should fire him, preferably sooner rather than later since the rest of SE's flagship titles aren't doing so well.

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Originally Posted by BlackMack

Did we forget that these relics at 75 used to have lower damage than their 99 counter-parts? Or am I just imagining things here, and my 99s always had this much damage at 75.........

The real devastation is the fact they released weapons of this magnitude without properly considering what it would do to this game. What they can do is either nerf these new weapons, and bring them back down to what FFXI is used to.. OR boost the "ultimate" weapons of the game to be slightly better than these new weapons.

In regards to making more and more challenging content: You can make challenging content without making monsters require 300 DMG weapons to win. Insane HP and Defense doesn't make content difficult if that's all there is to it (Unless there's a time limit, of course...). There's an easy way to include strategy in the slaying of more powerful monsters, without having to make 300 damage weapons... but that's not the direction this is going, so we're back to square one.

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The problem is that there's only so far that this can go. At some point, the monsters have to have more hit points, more defense, hit harder, etc., otherwise, you end up with content that's nothing more than sidegrades, which describes XI pre-Abyssea.

When Abyssea started, the game started to be progressive again, with stronger gear, stronger players, and consequently stronger enemies. Seekers of Adoulin is just a step above this. If this is going to be a progressive, old gear will, eventually have to be obsolete, including RMECs. It's an age old problem that just about all MMO's face. Purple and orange gear that raiders farmed for months on end get replaced by blues and greens when a new expansion comes out.

Most of the player base acting like spoiled brats doesn't help much, and simply raising the damage on the RMECs only kicks the can down the road a little.

If you have any good ideas, I'm sure the dev team is all ears, because this problem is as old as MMO's themselves.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

The problem is that there's only so far that this can go. At some point, the monsters have to have more hit points, more defense, hit harder, etc., otherwise, you end up with content that's nothing more than sidegrades, which describes XI pre-Abyssea.

When Abyssea started, the game started to be progressive again, with stronger gear, stronger players, and consequently stronger enemies. Seekers of Adoulin is just a step above this. If this is going to be a progressive, old gear will, eventually have to be obsolete, including RMECs. It's an age old problem that just about all MMO's face. Purple and orange gear that raiders farmed for months on end get replaced by blues and greens when a new expansion comes out.

Most of the player base acting like spoiled brats doesn't help much, and simply raising the damage on the RMECs only kicks the can down the road a little.

If you have any good ideas, I'm sure the dev team is all ears, because this problem is as old as MMO's themselves.

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I can see the Relic weapons being obsolete with as long as they've been around, the Mythics too, potentially. But the Empyreans haven't even been out more than three years. That being said, your suggestion is good up to a point, and that point is claiming emps should be worthless before year 4 of their content lifecycle. If anything, Matsui's team should look into increasing the damage on the Empies if nothing else. Yet knowing Matsui and his team, they won't. Instead, they'll go on completely alienating their paying customers and you'll probably see FFXI dead before the end of June.

If SE wants to drop 250mil+ in my dbox for the two years of blood, sweat and tears of making my relic back when it was actually an accomplishment, along with every other relic holders dbox (for theirs), I'm sure we all just might consider the possibility of being outdone by new content. Giving SE the benefit of the doubt, I will say they had no idea when this game started it would still be going on as strong as it is today. But that does not change the fact RME were intended to be the best of the best, and they should stay that way.

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Originally Posted by Vitus

That's the reason you make RME in the first place. Now, why is it a problem when SE offers these weapons to everyone else too?

The root problem to this is the steep requirement to aquire RME. People spend too much time, even years to work on these weapons. It is understandable for them to rage when all their efforts were in vain. I feel sorry for those who just completed their RME. However, the idea of some specials weapons stay on top year after year, expansion after expansion, from the start to then end of game's life is silly.

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It's a problem because I spent 200 million gil on my 99 mandau and a lot of time getting it to boot. And I spent that on mandau, and never really thought about mercy stroke except that I knew it was good. I just wanted mandau. Twashtar looked like crap, Vajra was out of the question, so I wanted a Mandau. Did joe blow spend time getting a mandau? No he didn't. Why should he suddenly get a superior weapon with a fraction of the effort? Thanks for showing up, here's a super weapon! Kind of like how emps went down except SE corrected those by introducing insane 95-100 requirements, but they still don't carry any real lore or quests behind them. They were fricking magian weapons.

Also, yes I expect these weapons to stay on top year after year because IT IS LORE. They are there to be the very best weapons obtained through a quest, used by legendary warriors of Vana'diels past. Yes you read right, the game has lore. Imagine that for a MMORPG.

So I have to ask, at what point in the past 10 years have we ever indicated that we might be okay with easy to obtain super weapons to replace our insane RME99 weapon requirements? I'm just wondering I would be very happy to have an answer on that question FYI just let me know soon. Is the current FFXI team all rookies to the FFXI brand? Are they even aware of the purpose of relics and mythics? The lore behind them? What it takes to get them? Do they care? Was there not a single soul there that could have said, um boss, I been working here for ten years, and those RMEs are alittle too complicated to be replacing them. The players won't like this...

WHY CAN'T WE JUST GET A MASSIVE BOOST TO BASE DAMAGE ON RME!??? I don't understand why this is so hard for the SE FFXI dev team to stomach. What is so hard about it? You improve the base damage and call it a day. Why must you go and decide to try to make the weaponskills a quested ordeal when simply adjusting the base damage would be infinitely easier.

You know, I'm not against new weapons being #1. I am not against the idea of that whatsoever, ever. But new bestest weapons ever better take more effort than RMEs, and are of equal value meaning stories behind them and aftermaths and all that good stuff, and not be casual quickie weapons that exist just so the casual gamer can help defeat delve. That's just crazy.

I can't stress it enough. I'm fine with newer weapons being better than older weapons as long as they are meaningful to obtain. But these new weapons, I can only associate them with one image that comes to mind, and it's the image of a middle finger. I was pretty sure what they were doing with all this, typical move to make us want to spend time farming new stuff, then going back to adjust things so they don't piss people off into quitting but wow, I missed the mark on this one by a mile. I was close but I never would have imagined they would be so against the idea of simply increasing stats. I just don't understand why it's so unacceptable to jump mandau up to 100 base damage, but creating a new easy to obtain weapon with 100 damage is okay. Just give the new weapon a relic WS and it makes everything okay. What?

I hate to say it, but I think the devs have given up on Final Fantasy. They're choosing the EQ/WoW route because it's easier on their small work force/limited PS2 MMO. That's not so bad until you replace RMEs with weapons from the local Weapons R Us store.



Also, Keyln, there is no law that states that the current status quo of weapons can't be used until the end of time. You are presuming that weapons must progress, too. That is simply not the case. FFXI alone proved this for 7 years at a 75 cap. It is a choice by a developer, nothing more. Harder hitting NMs can always be countered with correct gear progression in hit points and magic points/mana/whatever. To go beyond that is overthinking and overdoing things. Kings and Gods had high defense. No one on the older FFXI teams felt compelled to progress weapons just to defeat sky gods. You are excusing the decision at best because you forget or don't know just what made FFXI different from the EQ recipe of end game. And like I said I'm okay with moving away from SE's recipe, but not at the cost of saying goodbye to elements of the game that made FFXI what it is. I may as well play EQ or a clone if I'm to do that style of gameplay. EQ wrote the book on it. I'm better off there than in a game going through a mid life identity crisis.

BTW FFXI suffers greatly with players who just want to zerg everything and not return to the standard end game style of MMORPGS which is having a main tank around.

They made a bad decision here. Plain and simple. If they rather depend on super weapons to conquer end game and not super armor because somehow super armor would bring a disturbance to the force while super weapons won't, so be it. But players will never be able to enjoy FFXI for as long as they are so easily killed because their HP progression is shit compared to everything else. God forbid Galkas running around zilart areas of the game with 5k base HP. That would REALLY ruin the game, let me tell you.

I understand the problem here. You need to deliver new content. You've done the whole sidegrade thing to death. You don't want to make low level stuff and former 75 content even more trivial. But it's either that or more event based stuff that you've already done to death where temp items and buffs come into play. Older content being made trivial is part of MMO life. FFXI has evaded that fate but there comes a time when you run out of sidegrades for your end game activities. It's time they let us be powerful to the common EP monster folk of Vana'diel. But I don't know if I can stomach wasting 200 million gil on essentially a weapon skill that's only useful when stacked with sneak attack. That irks the hell out of me.

the tears.... the tears everywhere! bring back tanaka! I need my NMs that are botted and cheese sandwiches back!

aww man this is awesome! I can't wait to do SA rudra storm with 100 base damage dagger fawking epic, to hell with a the haters!
But on a real note, isn't it golden week or some nonsense? people over reacting and should wait a few till they get back into the offices

Mr. Matsui I am sorry to inform you that the idea you have put forth is horrible. There are a great many people who will never be able to get their RMEC weapons to 99 due to prohibitive cost in addition to the already steep price tag on the base weapon. By simply allowing the weaponskill to be used by newly released weapons you are not preserving value or our hard work, you are insulting it and making the RMEC that we worked so hard for useless (especially if a player is unable to get their weapon to 99). The only acceptable, and frankly quite simple solution would be to raise the base DMG values/stat enhancements of RMEC weapons to be as good as new content.

RMEC weapons are the equivalent of "epic quests" that take months to complete, by making not only dropped weapons but crafted weapons far surpass the game's only epic quest weapons you are just spitting in players eyes. I don't have a 99RMEC, nor will I ever have one (especially now, lol), but I am competent enough to see how making them obsolete is a very undesirable choice.

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Originally Posted by Vold

Also, yes I expect these weapons to stay on top year after year because IT IS LORE. They are there to be the very best weapons obtained through a quest, used by legendary warriors of Vana'diels past. Yes you read right, the game has lore. Imagine that for a MMORPG.

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Lore can change. Design ideas can change. A MMORPG is all about change. Because something can't happen because it's "lore" doesn't mean it won't. (Triple Negative Score Ho!)

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Also, Keyln, there is no law that states that the current status quo of weapons can't be used until the end of time. You are presuming that weapons must progress, too. That is simply not the case. FFXI alone proved this for 7 years at a 75 cap. It is a choice by a developer, nothing more. Harder hitting NMs can always be countered with correct gear progression in hit points and magic points/mana/whatever. To go beyond that is overthinking and overdoing things. Kings and Gods had high defense. No one on the older FFXI teams felt compelled to progress weapons just to defeat sky gods. You are excusing the decision at best because you forget or don't know just what made FFXI different from the EQ recipe of end game. And like I said I'm okay with moving away from SE's recipe, but not at the cost of saying goodbye to elements of the game that made FFXI what it is. I may as well play EQ or a clone if I'm to do that style of gameplay. EQ wrote the book on it. I'm better off there than in a game going through a mid life identity crisis.

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Should I point out that this game is more or less an Everquest Clone with the Final Fantasy skin pasted on and the ability to change jobs added in?

Should I also point out that the Sky Gods came with the Rise of Zilart expansion, which was one of the few times in FFXI there was vertical progression? Since then, it's been sidegrades and stagnation, especially between Treasures of Aht Urghan and Abyssea. We've seen vertical progression now with more powerful things since Abyssea, and Seekers of Adoulin is a part of that.

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They made a bad decision here. Plain and simple. If they rather depend on super weapons to conquer end game and not super armor because somehow super armor would bring a disturbance to the force while super weapons won't, so be it. But players will never be able to enjoy FFXI for as long as they are so easily killed because their HP progression is shit compared to everything else.[B] God forbid Galkas running around zilart areas of the game with 5k base HP. That would REALLY ruin the game, let me tell you.

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It isn't just about enemies that hit harder. It's also about enemies that need have more HP and more defense. Otherwise, how would a DD be challenged? I do agree that more armor and more HP is important, but so is more damage and more attack. Good progression needs both.

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I understand the problem here. You need to deliver new content. You've done the whole sidegrade thing to death. You don't want to make low level stuff and former 75 content even more trivial. But it's either that or more event based stuff that you've already done to death where temp items and buffs come into play. Older content being made trivial is part of MMO life. FFXI has evaded that fate but there comes a time when you run out of sidegrades for your end game activities. It's time they let us be powerful to the common EP monster folk of Vana'diel. But I don't know if I can stomach wasting 200 million gil on essentially a weapon skill that's only useful when stacked with sneak attack. That irks the hell out of me.

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And that's something that just about every MMO player on every living MMO that's expanded has said. I've heard these complaints before, about how people who spent months going through the same raid over and over again to get at that time the best armor and weapons in the game, only to be replaced by more common gear with better stats. While I can understand the sentiment, but it's a fact of almost all MMO's, and the sooner you learn to accept it, the better.

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I can see the Relic weapons being obsolete with as long as they've been around, the Mythics too, potentially. But the Empyreans haven't even been out more than three years. That being said, your suggestion is good up to a point, and that point is claiming emps should be worthless before year 4 of their content lifecycle. If anything, Matsui's team should look into increasing the damage on the Empies if nothing else. Yet knowing Matsui and his team, they won't. Instead, they'll go on completely alienating their paying customers and you'll probably see FFXI dead before the end of June.

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First, just upping the damage of the RMEC weapons isn't going to help things. All that does is kick the can down the road, and we'll be hearing the same thing a year or two down the line when they come up with even stronger weapons.

Second, people have been predicting the death of FFXI for YEARS for a variety of reasons. I fail to see what makes this so different.

A new WS would not make up for the twice as much damage compared to these new weapons. At best they might even the odds, but R/E/M lack the high weapon damage. If the dev team doesn't come with anything good of "fixing" R/E/M 99 I would unsubsribe permanently.

This is what I think of the whole situation. I believe Matsui had no choice.

First and foremost, Matsui is a businessman. His primary function is to make as much money as possible for the shareholders. That being said, once the "pick-up" or casual paradigm switched to the R/E/M only mentality, those weapons were doomed. 99 R/E/M's are a tiny percentage of the total population. It may seem otherwise, but that's just do to continuous emotional posts (a lot by the same small group of people). Also, a simple understanding of economics and drop rates will make it glaringly obvious that 99 R/E/M's will be the minority for years and years to come, without astounding drop rate changes. There seems to be only so much to go around, even if every dynamis/VW/ADL was camped to the second 24/7. (Actually, I think I might do the math on that one, out of curiosity. It would be interesting to compare a perfect hypothetical economy to the real one.)

Look at it this way, the developers are privy to much more data about the playerbase than we are. Once this R/E/M mentality started to get out of hand, I'm sure that SE noticed (probably due to subs. dropping at a curious rate). The thing is, when casuals quit due to being shut out of content they're paying for, they usually just leave (and this is a big one, they probably tend to not come back), unnoticed to us. But en masse, SE's red flags start going off. Think about it from the casual's perspective. Without a R/E/M they are excluded from pretty much everything but Abyssea. But the golden days of Abyssea are in the past. (And be honest with yourself, you know you did a lot of your Abyssea trials by giving out +2s to LS members or randoms). So unless they leveled bst and farmed dynamis for months (/snore), they were stuck at that level.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the R/E/M holders did this to themselves. If you want to make a R/E/M only LS, that's great. Knock yourself out. But the problem is when that mentality crossed over to pick-up events. Matsui had to take action, his hands were tied. It's like a rich kid constantly showing off his money at a bar or something. Don't be surprised when you get robbed. You can't hoard your accomplishments (R/E/M only!) over the general public (casuals in this case) and not expect action to be taken.

And by the way, I respect Matsui for taking such bold action. Every person calling him an idiot or whatever has no idea how smart and ruthless you have to be to make it to his level in the business world. Call me a white knight or whatever you like, that doesn't make anything I've said any less true. Looking at this strictly as a business decision, I think he played the hand he was dealt (by us) about as well as he could.

TL;DR
Keep your elitist mentality (nothing wrong with being elitist btw) in your LS and out of public chat channels.

Finally, let me pose a question to all the Xbox 360 R/E/M holders. How would you feel if you suddenly started encountering "PC only" shouts (you know what I'm really talking about)? You can get a part time job and pay for a nice new PC in way less hours than it takes to build a 99 R/E/M. But be honest, how would you really feel about being excluded like that?

P.S. Please excuse the generous use of parentheses. I'm trying to speak in general terms, but at the same time speak to the most likely group of players reading this thread (R/E/M holders).

AlL i have to say is everyone should be ashamed of themselves with the way they are behaving and handling about this aparant issues....

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Originally Posted by Fermion

This is what I think of the whole situation. I believe Matsui had no choice.

First and foremost, Matsui is a businessman. His primary function is to make as much money as possible for the shareholders. That being said, once the "pick-up" or casual paradigm switched to the R/E/M only mentality, those weapons were doomed. 99 R/E/M's are a tiny percentage of the total population. It may seem otherwise, but that's just do to continuous emotional posts (a lot by the same small group of people). Also, a simple understanding of economics and drop rates will make it glaringly obvious that 99 R/E/M's will be the minority for years and years to come, without astounding drop rate changes. There seems to be only so much to go around, even if every dynamis/VW/ADL was camped to the second 24/7. (Actually, I think I might do the math on that one, out of curiosity. It would be interesting to compare a perfect hypothetical economy to the real one.)

Look at it this way, the developers are privy to much more data about the playerbase than we are. Once this R/E/M mentality started to get out of hand, I'm sure that SE noticed (probably due to subs. dropping at a curious rate). The thing is, when casuals quit due to being shut out of content they're paying for, they usually just leave (and this is a big one, they probably tend to not come back), unnoticed to us. But en masse, SE's red flags start going off. Think about it from the casual's perspective. Without a R/E/M they are excluded from pretty much everything but Abyssea. But the golden days of Abyssea are in the past. (And be honest with yourself, you know you did a lot of your Abyssea trials by giving out +2s to LS members or randoms). So unless they leveled bst and farmed dynamis for months (/snore), they were stuck at that level.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the R/E/M holders did this to themselves. If you want to make a R/E/M only LS, that's great. Knock yourself out. But the problem is when that mentality crossed over to pick-up events. Matsui had to take action, his hands were tied. It's like a rich kid constantly showing off his money at a bar or something. Don't be surprised when you get robbed. You can't hoard your accomplishments (R/E/M only!) over the general public (casuals in this case) and not expect action to be taken.

And by the way, I respect Matsui for taking such bold action. Every person calling him an idiot or whatever has no idea how smart and ruthless you have to be to make it to his level in the business world. Call me a white knight or whatever you like, that doesn't make anything I've said any less true. Looking at this strictly as a business decision, I think he played the hand he was dealt (by us) about as well as he could.

TL;DR
Keep your elitist mentality (nothing wrong with being elitist btw) in your LS and out of public chat channels.

Finally, let me pose a question to all the Xbox 360 R/E/M holders. How would you feel if you suddenly started encountering "PC only" shouts (you know what I'm really talking about)? You can get a part time job and pay for a nice new PC in way less hours than it takes to build a 99 R/E/M. But be honest, how would you really feel about being excluded like that?

P.S. Please excuse the generous use of parentheses. I'm trying to speak in general terms, but at the same time speak to the most likely group of players reading this thread (R/E/M holders).

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I am a returning player who left for this very same reason... i kept getting pigeonholed into needed certain items to even perform my job or to come as something else because everyone over analyzed everything SE gave to them as info and had this mentality that your either this job or GTFO because only numbers matter....

I don't know about how everyone else actually feels, although most of everyone has already vocalized their disdain for the plans. But what was really upsetting to me was the prospect of our weapons with all the work we put in being worth null. I understand that it's not even close to being finalized, but why was it ever an option to invalidate a years worth of work (in my case) or the numerous relics some other people have. I'm still planning on 99ing at least one of my Empyreans in the optimism that they'll eventually bring RMECs up to the standard we expect out of our named legendary weapons. Because while it was a different development team before, Relic owners made similar complaints at the Lv85 cap that Empyreans were too close to power of a relic for significantly less effort. That was eventually remedied, and hopefully the dev team will realize this isn't a path that the playerbase wants. I've sat by and watched while time after time suggestions were shot down because of "balance", wondering what the point of the official forums if our concerns are never addressed or taken into serious consideration. It honestly seems like if we the playerbase seems to find anything that is in our favor in terms of PvE, the dev team immediately finds a way to turn that around. I'm willing to bet that any inkling that ensures us that our legendary weapons aren't going to be aged out, the uproar that was caused this week will settle down and so many of your subscribers will ease up on their threats to cancel their service.

This is the first time i am ever posting on this forum and the only reason is because of the RAGE this company is making me feel right now. I have been paying you guys $15 a month for over 5 years, and you are pretty much telling me "HAHA JK YOU WASTED ALL YOUR TIME! Start over and deal with it!" Well f this. If the base damage on R/M/E isn't going to be made higher than the new weapons me and almost all relic holders i know(and don't know) will quit. A new weapon skill would be beyond useless, end of story. Step up to the plate and take care of the players who have worked and played hard in this game of yours for so many years

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Originally Posted by ThaiChi

I don't know about how everyone else actually feels, although most of everyone has already vocalized their disdain for the plans. But what was really upsetting to me was the prospect of our weapons with all the work we put in being worth null. I understand that it's not even close to being finalized, but why was it ever an option to invalidate a years worth of work (in my case) or the numerous relics some other people have. I'm still planning on 99ing at least one of my Empyreans in the optimism that they'll eventually bring RMECs up to the standard we expect out of our named legendary weapons. Because while it was a different development team before, Relic owners made similar complaints at the Lv85 cap that Empyreans were too close to power of a relic for significantly less effort. That was eventually remedied, and hopefully the dev team will realize this isn't a path that the playerbase wants. I've sat by and watched while time after time suggestions were shot down because of "balance", wondering what the point of the official forums if our concerns are never addressed or taken into serious consideration. It honestly seems like if we the playerbase seems to find anything that is in our favor in terms of PvE, the dev team immediately finds a way to turn that around. I'm willing to bet that any inkling that ensures us that our legendary weapons aren't going to be aged out, the uproar that was caused this week will settle down and so many of your subscribers will ease up on their threats to cancel their service.

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Although your post is hard on the eyes, I'll try to answer some of your questions.

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Relic owners made similar complaints at the Lv85 cap that Empyreans were too close to power of a relic for significantly less effort.

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The difference is that none of the content at that time was as exclusionary as it is/was right now.

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I've sat by and watched while time after time suggestions were shot down because of "balance", wondering what the point of the official forums if our concerns are never addressed or taken into serious consideration.

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First off, you need to understand that the legendary Tanaka quote of "balance" is codeword for "money".
Secondly, these forums are simply another form of data for SE analysts. Think of it as SE "data-mining" us.

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I'm willing to bet that any inkling that ensures us that our legendary weapons aren't going to be aged out, the uproar that was caused this week will settle down and so many of your subscribers will ease up on their threats to cancel their service.

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The only "uproars" you're experiencing are in your mind, and on these forums. The bottom line will determine where this expansion will take us. Bottom line = money if you still don't get it.

Matsui's real genius is subtly allowing the playerbase to feel like they're controlling his decisions. ANYONE who is the boss ANYWHERE, will not give up that control so easily. He's simply making the smart business move to pander to the public. Same as American politicians. Give them the illusion of choice, then align the most popular choice with what's best for you. It's really a simple business strategy, but we're so emotionally involved with this game, that he's "whooshing" the entire playerbase.

Look, as I've said before, the best thing we can do at this point is keep our elitist mentality within our linkshells. Stop the R/E/M only shouts, and go back to a LS based game. Let the "casuals" actually experience the "end-game" content. They'll be owned so badly, that they'll have no choice but to farm better gear WITH EACH OTHER. While the "end-game" linkshells will continue to progress without a hiccup.

Meaning those of us in good Ls's will still have the gear advantage over the casuals, but at least they'll (casuals) have something to do. Which I believe was Matsui's plan, but we got too dog on emotional to realize it.

200 Assault books, 400K Ampoules, 600K Tokens, and 120K Alexandrites down the drain. :(

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Originally Posted by Keyln

If this is going to be a progressive, old gear will, eventually have to be obsolete, including RMECs.

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And halt. Pause. Rewind.

My question to the above quote is: "Why?"

I understand your argument about things needing to be progressive. That's fine. But R/M/E aren't subject to this rule. They are (or were) the best weapons in their class. They were the "Ultimate Weapons" of this game, with requirements that, for the most part, reflected such, and were to be the end all weapon for that type.

Why does what the weapon is (in this case, the Ultimate Weapon) have to change? Just because someone says progression can't happen without them becoming useless?

I don't think so. The trials did exactly what was necessary. They kept the Ultimate Weapons where they should be, which is at the top. Just because someone made their Mandau back in 2005 and eight years have now passed does not mean that the time they spent working on it is suddenly invalid.

People bring up this silly argument all the time. "R/M/E can't be the best forever!".

Why not? They were designed to be.

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Although your post is hard on the eyes, I'll try to answer some of your questions.

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I didn't actually ask any questions, I was simply making a statement, but ok. I drew a parallel to a similar complaint by the playerbase from a prior situation. The fact of the matter is there's a large number of subscribers that are unhappy with the direction the current development team wants to take us, and as a response the community on this forum (a la said uproar) have threatened to cancel.

I don't particularly see what's so exclusionary about Delve, Nakaauls or any of the content released this week, but again the details of the game content aside, they've given us this official forums seemingly for us to voice what we want. But the players' pleas fall on deaf ears and the devs continue to blindly make adjustments regardless of the direction us the players want to be steered.

I made a mythic and I'm not panicked because you're right, I have a linkshell that does events regularly and a small group of people to do lowman content. The thing that made me a little irked is that legendary weapons seemed to be intended as the feather-in-your-cap for your jobs would be usurped in a single update--without the reassurance that the effort isn't gone to waste.

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Originally Posted by Fermion

This is what I think of the whole situation. I believe Matsui had no choice.

First and foremost, Matsui is a businessman. His primary function is to make as much money as possible for the shareholders. That being said, once the "pick-up" or casual paradigm switched to the R/E/M only mentality, those weapons were doomed. 99 R/E/M's are a tiny percentage of the total population. It may seem otherwise, but that's just do to continuous emotional posts (a lot by the same small group of people).

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Anyone with a slight understanding of MMO industry would immediately understand why this is bad choice from money making POV.

Casuals in this game are less involved ones, that they often play on and off, not involve in any event/static, and would quit without 2nd thought for any reason. Even if those are in big numbers, it's not a stable customer base. Even if they can get delve weapons and enjoy the content on their jobs, they will still quit without 2nd thought for w/e reason. I've been in a casual LS full of new/returning player for years, and been observing it, that's just how less involved players do.

So this decision doesn't really benefit a customer base that would leave whether R/E/M is required or not.

Those players get locked out of content, unable to finish lv 85~90 empy(only a few jobs need lv 85~90 empy to perform properly) are the minority. Majority of the casuals have np making 85~90 empy at least. So this move is to please maybe 10%~20% of player base that may likely to leave again due to lack of involvement.

Players with lv 85~90 are the majority, and probably not affected that much. Those ppl often still come and go, just not as bad as casuals without R/E/M.

So this decision hurts players with 95 R/E/M owners the most.

They may be the minority compare with those without 95 R/E/M, but they often have multiple account, rarely take a break nor come and go. And they often develop strategies for content, and actively do newer contents. They're certainly more than 1% in numbers, at least not if you count their mules. And without them everything gets harder. They're the stable customer base that SE doesn't want to piss them off and drive them away.

If 70% of the current 95+ R/E/M owners are gone, you won't find ppl that involved enough in FFXI to do anything to begin with. You'd have to pt with a bunch of come and go players, unable to have a stable static, for newer endgame content such as delve. And the result is that even if you want to get involved, you may end up quitting. The result is player base shrink that hurts everyone.

A healthy MMORPG should have both dedicated customer base(smaller numbers, but won't leave easily), and casuals(come and go easily, play the game to see what's it like, but larger numbers). Just because less involved players are larger in number, doesn't mean you should ditch dedicated player to please them, because they won't increase in numbers and would go leave matter what you do. And if less involved players want to get involved/dedicated for some reason, it'd end up being harder because all the involved players quit. So in the end you get a bunch of come and go players left, and it's not healthy for a MMORPG that requires a static and such to do anything.

If anything, I'd say the mistake started from Abyssea, when SE want to hand out empy to everyone, then made relic realstic obtainable by the most. So now when they want to move away from R/E/M they'd need to piss off their most dedicated customer base, and unlikely to get new customer base anyways. And it's all started by same producer that have no idea how MMORPG works.

It has nothing to do with elitism, stop just calling everyone elitist when this issue is brought up. This is an issue that if they don't fix properly, it will make FFXI die faster and indirectly affects FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Fermion

Look at it this way, the developers are privy to much more data about the playerbase than we are. Once this R/E/M mentality started to get out of hand, I'm sure that SE noticed (probably due to subs. dropping at a curious rate). The thing is, when casuals quit due to being shut out of content they're paying for, they usually just leave (and this is a big one, they probably tend to not come back), unnoticed to us. But en masse, SE's red flags start going off. Think about it from the casual's perspective. Without a R/E/M they are excluded from pretty much everything but Abyssea. But the golden days of Abyssea are in the past. (And be honest with yourself, you know you did a lot of your Abyssea trials by giving out +2s to LS members or randoms). So unless they leveled bst and farmed dynamis for months (/snore), they were stuck at that level.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the R/E/M holders did this to themselves. If you want to make a R/E/M only LS, that's great. Knock yourself out. But the problem is when that mentality crossed over to pick-up events. Matsui had to take action, his hands were tied. It's like a rich kid constantly showing off his money at a bar or something. Don't be surprised when you get robbed. You can't hoard your accomplishments (R/E/M only!) over the general public (casuals in this case) and not expect action to be taken.

Finally, let me pose a question to all the Xbox 360 R/E/M holders. How would you feel if you suddenly started encountering "PC only" shouts (you know what I'm really talking about)? You can get a part time job and pay for a nice new PC in way less hours than it takes to build a 99 R/E/M. But be honest, how would you really feel about being excluded like that?

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Another clueless POV about MMO industry. R/E/M only mentality started by nobody else but SE. SE made relic obtainable by the majority, and majority of the player base has it, so they ended up having to adjust content difficulties for it. That's the real reason why R/E/M only. On top of certain DD job can't keep up without R/E/M.

I already post this example somewhere but I'll just copy and paste again.
If only 1% of player has R/E/M, it's ok to make mob HP 1000 Def 300, so avg players can beat it and content won't be too hard. You can't make mob HP 3000 Def 500 if only 1% of ppl has R/E/M, or else it'd be too hard for the majority.

If 80% of players has R/E/M, then you have to make every mob HP 3000 Def 500, if you still keep mob HP 1000 Def 300, the game would be too easy and you don't want that either.

And the result is, if you don't have R/E/M, mob HP 1000 Def 300 would be too hard for you.

Another reason is because certain job is too weak compare with other jobs. Before SoA DRK with a trial weapon or Ig-Alima GS has np doing reasonable dmg, while jobs like DRG was sooooo far behind and must need a Mythic to keep up.

If DRG MNK SAM WAR can do as much dmg as a DRK with an AH weapon, nobody would be R/E/M only.

The fact is, if you do VW with a bunch of DRG MNK WAR without R/E/M, you WILL notice it gets quite hard.....anything T6 or prov would suffer from much higher wipe rate.

And since you can get ppl with those weapon easy, why don't you do it? Would you rather spending 2hr making an ally to do event to wipe? I highly doubt you would.

All that R/E/M mentality wouldn't happen if SE keep top weapon 1% of player base, or if they keep the gap between job/weapons smaller. Because players would aim for most efficient setup no matter what.

As for PC only no Xbox, once again, blame SE for making Xbox shit and shit user interface. Why are you blaming the players? It's only human nature to take as much advantage as possible in a MMORPG. So dev shouldn't even create the gap to begin with.

Here is a suggestion that would compliment SE's idea and the player satisfaction for the R/M/E issue.

Make it where the R/M/E weapon can be transmigrated into a player stat/skill. If the weapon is either a 99 or 99 afterglow weapon, you would have 2 additional trials accordingly :

1) 99 weapon - complete said trial (maybe make it where you kill a string of different NMs, let's say 5-10, ranging from Fafnir to Genbu to normal Dynamis Lord etc) and once the trial is complete, you would be able to "absorb the weapon's properties" into your character which would reflect on any weapon you have. (i.e. Mandau - player absorbs the traits of the weapon's +35 attack, triple dmg 13% proc rate, unique WS, add effect poison, and WS's aftermath when used and these stats become part of your character permanently)

2) Same as above but you would get the afterglow as a permanent trait as well

This way the weapons become extremely valuable still by carrying over into your character and getting new weapons will greater benefit the player than just someone who only has the base new weapon, which would please R/M/E holders and SE's direction of having players do the new content for the better weapons.

Also, please make Umbral Marrow a bit more accessible >.> Needs more sources than just Arch Dynamis Lord (increase the number of marrows ADL drops from 1 to guaranteed 2 up to 3 and have all Arch Bosses capable of dropping the item along with normal DL being able to drop at a 10% drop rate). Along with the Mythic 99 item, make it drop from the Tier 4 VNMs (at a lower rate) along with Pandemonium Warden.

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Originally Posted by Camate

I understand the delicacy of this discussion and everyone's feelings on the matter; however, please keep in mind that Producer Matsui has indicated that all of this is no where near finalized at this point and they are still in the early discussion phase.

With that said, there have been quite a few posts that we have had to remove due to inappropriate language, so please keep this in mind when making a reply to this thread.

As always, I will be doing all that I can so that your opinions are delivered to the development team and rest assured that your voice is being heard.

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You should go and deliver those deleted posts to Matsui, because that's exactly what we're thinking at the moment.

If I wanted to play the WoW's "wipe everyone's achievements every six months", I'd go play WoW. You are disrespectful to everyone, who is in the process of making, I don't know, let's say a 30000 alexandrite mythic, or who has finished one last week after months or YEARS of puking boredom you call Slavage and Dienamis and expect them to dig it and be cheerful?
How about Producer Matsui finishes leveling his character, makes a Mythic weapon and THEN tells me how I should be feeling about all of this?

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Originally Posted by Keyln

Lore can change. Design ideas can change.

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When you already have a dedicated customer base liked your current design ideas, and unlikely to attract new customer base(no way FFXI would attract current gen MMORPG gamers without a re-launch), you shouldn't change design ideas that would drive existing customer base away.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

Second, people have been predicting the death of FFXI for YEARS for a variety of reasons. I fail to see what makes this so different.

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When ppl have been predicting the death of FFXI for years, I always have confidence in them. But this time, I only see massive dmg done to this brand, that even if FFXI don't die after this, it speed up the process A LOT.

Yes, this time is just that different, even worse than Abyssea era, worse than the end of CoP, worse dyna change and such. It effectively turned dedicated/involved player base into less involved/dedicated ones. Why would you want want more less involved/dedicated players in a MMO?

Remember how server merge twice happened during Abyssea era? Good ideas =/= keeping players around.

@Afania Abyssea death of game = Tanaka... other than that on your posts... you did mention that everyone is worthless without a R/E/M, which could be why they take that out so that new playerbase is achievable, but that brings us to why not just have the new weapons be a TINY bit less than R/E/Ms...

oh there something else... there was an AWESOME thing about this update... it for COR and RNG ^^ the good old new recycle/scavenge rules

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Originally Posted by Kojo

After Camate's last post, I'm kinda wondering...just what are they discussing? The best, easiest course of action is to just plan to increase R/M/E damage. Are they discussing what to raise them to? Or how to do it?

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They're talking about FFXIV :( Cuz new producer is busy doing FFXIV stuff and unable to address this issue in XI atm.

/sigh another mistake SE made, made me lost faith in FFXIV too.

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Originally Posted by Camate

We are planning to unlock the special weapon skills that are granted from RMEC weapons when you have upgraded them to their level 99 form

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This idea is great, just make sure you boost the hell out of Relic, Empyrean and Mythic weapons base DMG, too. People would love to be able to do any of the Weapon Skills regardless of weapon, however, the Weapon Skill isn't the only thing to the weapon (excluding "Coin Weapons," in which this is the only reason to have those weapons). I would very much appreciate being able to do Ukko's Fury from my Shamash with my Conqueror.

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Originally Posted by Afania

They're talking about FFXIV :( Cuz new producer is busy doing FFXIV stuff and unable to address this issue in XI atm.

/sigh another mistake SE made, made me lost faith in FFXIV too.

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IMO... (IDK how much hate I'm going to get for saying this), I can't WAIT for FFXIV to be released and fail again... that way we can carry XI business as usual, there will be a lot of work done on the game (remember last time we got new avatars, empys/relics got worked on... ect) and hopefully they'll just focus on their flagship, and not try to make all these failing substations.

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Originally Posted by Areayea

@Afania Abyssea death of game = Tanaka... other than that on your posts... you did mention that everyone is worthless without a R/E/M, which could be why they take that out so that new playerbase is achievable, but that brings us to why not just have the new weapons be a TINY bit less than R/E/Ms...

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Yes, they take R/E/M concept out, and also most dedicated/involved player base is out too.

Don't you get it, keeping player base big is first priority, more important than anything else. No matter how awesome your ideas are, you can't execute it without resource(read: money from subs).

Once current involved R/E/M owners are out, SE makes less money, and for other players it's harder to get shit done. Let's say if I stay after this update, but most my friends with 95+ R/E/M, multiple account and log on everyday quit, how can I do newer and harder content without them? I may just feel frustrated and quit too.

I'm not sure why everyone's like "pissing off the minority isn't a big deal, as long as we don't have to use 1 set of weapon for another 5 years". This is NOT how you manage MMOs. You manage MMOs by having as many subs as possible, by keeping players that are involved, logged on EVERYDAY around. You don't want your customer base full of unstable subs, that'd play other games when new game is out. Because that'd affect everyone and making everyone else harder to get involved, and player base shrinks faster.

All for this for what? To please a player base that plays on and off, whether R/E/M exist or not? Get real. I've known enough friends/new/returning players that plays on and off for a reason. Mostly rl reason or just unable to get "involved". If you're unable to finish R/E/M because you only play 2 hours a week, do you think removing R/E/M would make you play more? No you won't. You still only play for 2 hours a week, with R/E/M or not, and even worse, without current R/E/M owners(because they all quit)things just gets harder. And if for some reason I have time to get involved again, I won't be able to find any dedicated players to play with again. My connections would full of playing on and off players, unable to static anything. And the result is I'm unable to get involved too and may as well just quit.


Then without the resources, SE won't be able to dev good content to achieve their vision that's like WOW and do gear reset every once a while.

If this game can last 10 more years with current playerbase, this gear reset just speed up the process and now it dies much faster.

The result hurts everyone, not just R/E/M owners(and they're certainly not minority).

The fact that new producer had no slight understanding how managing MMO works(not just building an awesome idea and design, but also keeping the players around) is pretty disappointing.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Another clueless POV about MMO industry. R/E/M only mentality started by nobody else but SE. SE made relic obtainable by the majority, and majority of the player base has it, so they ended up having to adjust content difficulties for it. That's the real reason why R/E/M only. On top of certain DD job can't keep up without R/E/M.

I already post this example somewhere but I'll just copy and paste again.
If only 1% of player has R/E/M, it's ok to make mob HP 1000 Def 300, so avg players can beat it and content won't be too hard. You can't make mob HP 3000 Def 500 if only 1% of ppl has R/E/M, or else it'd be too hard for the majority.

If 80% of players has R/E/M, then you have to make every mob HP 3000 Def 500, if you still keep mob HP 1000 Def 300, the game would be too easy and you don't want that either.

And the result is, if you don't have R/E/M, mob HP 1000 Def 300 would be too hard for you.

Another reason is because certain job is too weak compare with other jobs. Before SoA DRK with a trial weapon or Ig-Alima GS has np doing reasonable dmg, while jobs like DRG was sooooo far behind and must need a Mythic to keep up.

If DRG MNK SAM WAR can do as much dmg as a DRK with an AH weapon, nobody would be R/E/M only.

The fact is, if you do VW with a bunch of DRG MNK WAR without R/E/M, you WILL notice it gets quite hard.....anything T6 or prov would suffer from much higher wipe rate.

And since you can get ppl with those weapon easy, why don't you do it? Would you rather spending 2hr making an ally to do event to wipe? I highly doubt you would.

All that R/E/M mentality wouldn't happen if SE keep top weapon 1% of player base, or if they keep the gap between job/weapons smaller. Because players would aim for most efficient setup no matter what.

As for PC only no Xbox, once again, blame SE for making Xbox shit and shit user interface. Why are you blaming the players? It's only human nature to take as much advantage as possible in a MMORPG. So dev shouldn't even create the gap to begin with.

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I wasn't even going to respond until you devolved to personal attacks. To call my opinion "clueless" when you have no idea who I am, or what I do, is ignorance of the highest level.

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R/E/M only mentality started by nobody else but SE.

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So SE has mind control technology now?

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SE made relic obtainable by the majority, and majority of the player base has it, so they ended up having to adjust content difficulties for it.

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Look up the word majority, then cross reference that with the basic Economics, English, and Mathematical definitions. Then come back and edit your post. Protip, majority = more than half.

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I already post this example somewhere but I'll just copy and paste again.
If only 1% of player has R/E/M, it's ok to make mob HP 1000 Def 300, so avg players can beat it and content won't be too hard. You can't make mob HP 3000 Def 500 if only 1% of ppl has R/E/M, or else it'd be too hard for the majority.

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In the world of candyland, rainbows are much greater than lollipops. Protip: Use the agreed upon statistics we've figured out over the years instead of your made-up examples, or don't bother to "try" to use math to prove your points.

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If 80% of players has R/E/M, then you have to make every mob HP 3000 Def 500, if you still keep mob HP 1000 Def 300, the game would be too easy and you don't want that either.

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No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? or half is 10 for 20 dmg?

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And the result is, if you don't have R/E/M, mob HP 1000 Def 300 would be too hard for you.

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Enough with the imaginary math already. C'mon.

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Another reason is because certain job is too weak compare with other jobs. Before SoA DRK with a trial weapon or Ig-Alima GS has np doing reasonable dmg, while jobs like DRG was sooooo far behind and must need a Mythic to keep up.

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I apologize. It's obvious English isn't your first language. But to your point, tell me, do you know the damage percentage difference between those two jobs with said weapons, or are you just parroting something you read? If you can accurately break that down, then, maybe, we can have a discussion.

Honestly I'm bored of quoting your fail. Either step the discussion up with facts (not imaginary stats), or get over it. I get it, you worked hard for your R/M/E. But step back, calm down, and talk to me rationally or gtfo.

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Originally Posted by Areayea

oh there something else... there was an AWESOME thing about this update... it for COR and RNG ^^ the good old new recycle/scavenge rules

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All that good thing completely ruined by 1 bad decision and bad communication :(

well first off, yes im hoping REM are brought back to there rightful status remember those weapons are a symbol for many people, not everyone magically had an alliance or 2 mules there DBing to finish a emp but instead chiped away at it, more an ideal than a absolute fact that they would one day finish it to 99 tho it gave them a goal that brought them back day after day, alot of the people accepting them as are try to say most people dont have a relic or emp (there spot on on mythics tho, those are rare), but i walk down port jeuno and excluding the blms schs and whms everyone and there brother has one at one stage or another, im not just talking about the elite level, now not everyone had a 99 which was for good reason (mainly becaus well alot of us dont have time to earn more than maybe 1-5mil a week and for alot of people thts going to dry up (dynamis VW salvage) as upgrade items free fall. I mean seriously i am pretty sure there are many people who have been working from day one on hmps just slowly chipping away at the objective of the 1322 plates i have i farmed 400 before i started buying any because to me, that Almace is a symbol that i chose to make my blu my bad ass job, i see a blu with a 99 almace i know he is a crazy rdm a dedicated pld or my peer as a blu.

With that said however its now time for what i see as a silver lining lets say the let us use are star weaponskill with other weapons and assuming they give after math to said weapons and still upgrade are RME could they not also at the same time if we main hand an upgraded rme finally give the after math status also to are off hand >.>/ ..... someone kill that cricket....