On Red Mage melee...

I know i kinda browsed through this forum after page 3 or 4 but an Idea I've kinda always kept to myself is a Job Trait or Better yet Job Ability that we can activate and while Enspell active our Enhancing Spell Duration is x1.5 or better yet x2 and after an Enhancing Spell is cast we gain a fraction of MP split in to 1/2 given to Atk and Acc so haste which I cannot remember the MP amount atm for this Example will be 40mp when said ability is active we'll expend 40 mp but in a sense we get 1/2 back in the form of 10Atk and 10 Acc effects from enhancing magic last per spell so you can cast a few enhancing spells but the same spell will not grant you a bonus and effect last as long as ability. So Said Ability is 5 Min Duration Recast 1Min you cast 3 - 4 different Enhancing spells totaling 120MP you'll get 60 of it in the form of Atk Acc buffs, 30 each, give us a piece of RDM only hybridish gear that augments the effect from 1/2 mp to 3/4 =) Maybe the Tier III Enspells could have stat Boosts for STR DEX and MND too... Not large large bonuses but +3-5 would help and DMG boosts I did like that Enspell/WS idea maybe it could have a Mana Leach bonus ;) and no it wont make RDM OP to all you RDM Haters RDM only seems OP cause it can Kite... very well... melee'ing has nothing to do with kiting LET US MELEE

Another Idea Geared towards the Hybrid gear idea is RDM only Shield with Stats Geared to make using a 1h sub more complimentary towards RDM i prefer RDM/BLU when I melee so give us a shield with some bonus to composure STR DEX MND INT MAcc/Acc i mean there is limitless ideas give it haste or DA honestly as an Elvaan I'd like to see a shield around 70-80 to have something like DEF:30ish STR+5 DEX+5 Macc+5 Acc+10 Auguments "Composure" to whole party.... Hidden Effect Haste+5% when TP >20% and Enspell is active...

As you can obviously see, Sehira doesn't want "hybrid" gear she just wants better gear. And yes "hybrid" automatically means weaker then specialized, its in the fcking definition.

Ex
Ring 1
INT +10

Ring 2
MND +10

Ring 3
INT +5
MND +5

All three rings have +10 to stats, two are specialized while one is a hybrid. There is no circumstance where you would equip Ring 3 over either Ring 1 or Ring 2. If you were not allowed to instantly change gears in FFXI then there would be a very strong argument for "hybrid" gear as you would be forced to balance out your gear prior to engaging in combat. Instead what Sehira is really arguing for is (and trying to hide it),

Ring 1
INT+10

Ring 2
MND +10

Ring 3
INT +10
MND +10

Where in there would no situation where ANY job would chose to wear either Ring 1 or 2 over Ring 3. Ring 3 is simply better in all aspects then either Ring 1 or 2 and thus obsoletes them upon its acquisition. The inventory+1 is just a happy side effect. And the moment you allow non-RDM jobs to equip that gear, its no longer remotely "hybrid", its simply the best. The conclusion to this line of reasoning is that Sehira desires RDM-only super gear that has better stats then all current gear put together. It must have better melee / WS / nuking / enfeebling / buffing / tanking stats, or some combination therein of all currently available options. AFv3 is good, but no job got gear like that. Everyone got amazing gear, but all the "hyrbids" got gear that was spread out a bit. BLU's head / body / legs are amazing TP pieces, but their hands / feet are nuking / s.blade pieces only. The "set" can be considered "hybrid" because the pieces are not all focused on the same thing, but each piece is specialized. WAR is the same way, feet / legs / body are TP pieces with head / hands being WS pieces. The legs can also be used as a WS piece depending on what else you have access to. RDM got a pretty good set, each piece is amazing at what it does and put together with our other casting gear is pretty amazing. Its all pure casting gear but at least each piece is specialized, no more DEX +5 CHR+5 parry +3 stuff.

And ultimately inventory is not an issue, ever. You don't need all the staves in a melee set, you don't need most of your casting pieces. A TP set, a WS set or two (Dagger vs sword), a full +enh set and some +Fc gear. The only "mage" gear you need is the big +enf pieces for sleep / bind / grav, you won't be doing maxed out Slow II / Para II while in melee mode. You might include a few -PDT / MDT pieces if your tanking things, that is a situational set. RDM worked at 60 inventory spaces, it can most certainly work at 80. All the complainers did was find 20 more "situational mage" pieces to stuff in those 20 slots, the continue crying about inventory.

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Originally Posted by saevel

RDM got a pretty good set, each piece is amazing at what it does and put together with our other casting gear is pretty amazing. Its all pure casting gear but at least each piece is specialized, no more DEX +5 CHR+5 parry +3 stuff.

And ultimately inventory is not an issue, ever. You don't need all the staves in a melee set, you don't need most of your casting pieces. A TP set, a WS set or two (Dagger vs sword), a full +enh set and some +Fc gear. The only "mage" gear you need is the big +enf pieces for sleep / bind / grav, you won't be doing maxed out Slow II / Para II while in melee mode. You might include a few -PDT / MDT pieces if your tanking things, that is a situational set. RDM worked at 60 inventory spaces, it can most certainly work at 80. All the complainers did was find 20 more "situational mage" pieces to stuff in those 20 slots, the continue crying about inventory.

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Ok, let's try to move on beyond the calling out.

The main gripe with the gear we've been getting is that there's little that actually works for melee. Not to mention that while we are melee mages our AF3 has had next to nothing that reflects that. You're right in that the BLU AF3 is amazing, and I wish RDM had gotten at least one piece like that instead of more casting gear and extensions to buff durations that do nothing for us in the bigger picture (outside of enhancing something the melee camp has been trying to get away from and encouraging buff-botting even more).

The inventory issue was very important when the trends and public image of RDM were being set in stone. You were expected to be super geared and capping INT and MND just to land enfeebles reliably on the IT++ crap people loved to kill. That style of partying died and went away, but the image issues have lingered to some degree. There's other issues that go hand in hand with this, mostly job mechanics and party dynamics.

Either way, we should probably move on to what we consider solutions. I've already stated what I as an individual feel we need. Some have already stated theirs, but we need to move further in that direction. Hell, we might be able to come up with a suggestion or a change we can all agree in.

Hybrid gear doesn't have to be weaker if it's just different. For example a mage piece might contain +10 Mnd and +10 Int while the hybrid piece instead has something like +10 Macc, +10 Acc, +5% Haste, Enspell+5.

Now neither piece is exactly weaker then the other, they are each situational. Not only that the mage stats are used in such a way on the hybrid piece that they enhance the melee (in this case, the +Macc is making the enspells more accurate).

Now obviously this example shouldn't be the set in stone end all be all example considering there are some obvious flaws like anything that you would actually want to melee on you would probably want to be casting in the first set defeating the purpose of the hybrid set here, but I think you get my example that a hybrid set doesn't have to be just a weaker specialized piece as long as it's adequately different where each one has it's pros and cons depending on the situation and the mage piece tends to be better suited for tougher things while the hybrid piece tends to be better for trashier mobs that are suitable for us to melee on and not get raped by AoEs.

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No, it's more like your definition of hybrid is "the worst of both worlds" when it comes to gear and performance. Meanwhile, you've offered no counter to why it's fair a WAR might only have to get a set of pants for TP and WS while the RDM would have to get the same on top of ones for nuking, enfeebling, and other "situational" stuff you're so quick to dismiss because you're content with perpetuating the half-assed paradigm. Melee RDMs get a bad rap because, according to others, they don't do their magey stuff well on top of other physical deficiencies myself and others have noted throughout this thread and RDM history. Surprise of frickin' surprises, you're attempting to to promote that gimpness while proposing nothing to help our situation.

So, let's stop pretending I'm asking for +50 all stats on everything or that a given melee piece should beat the snot out a SAM's for any specific purpose. I'm saying RDM needs to get what RDM needs to step away from the bad reputation, poor numbers, and into overall acceptability that's not just some group's last resort. Gear is a part of that issue whether you like it or not.

Gimps with 1 pair of pants can be Gimps with 1 pair of pants no matter what job they're on, WAR or RDM or PUP. The fact of the matter is that you only need one pair of specialized pants on at any given time. You have 240 total Field slots to work with, and 80 in your active inventory. As demonstrated already, that's more than enough for a competent "Jack of all trades" build. However, even then, it's a lot more efficient to simply store sets you aren't using and then change your Inventory when you need to change roles.

Melee'ing while Buffing/sub-healing with heavy DDs in the group? Put your staves, PDT, Nuke gear, and HMP gear away. Healing/Buffing a group with heavy DDs? Put your Weapons, TP, and WS gear away. Kiting something? Put your Melee gear away and take out your full PDT and MDT sets.

RDM takes a lot of work to do well. It takes even more work to do well while melee'ing. Melee RDMs don't get a bad rap because their inventories are too small (which becomes a player issue, just manage your sets). They get a bad rap because it's extremely rare to find a Melee RDM who doesn't suck at RDM. It's perfectly acceptable in theory. The hard part is pulling it off with any degree of competence.

The Biggest problem with the job at its current stand point is this.
- We are for most gear behind about 2-3 steps to a specialized job. Most of this gear is harder to obtain for multiple reasons. Even without Hybrid gear we lack for most roles we should be able to do.
- Our Job lacks luster is not only outclassed in every role by a specialized job but is always replaced by them in the current game. We arn't even seen as a viable option due to lack of triggers or something else. Even our Highest Skills, Enfeebling and Enhancing our out classed due to our lack of spells in the feild. The Only spell that currently stands out is Refresh II. It's also not needed in Abyssea, nice but not needed.
- For the melee role this is twice as bad. Even assuming Hybrid gear has to be weaker, our current melee gear is probably behind even the hybrid gear that SE would give us at our current level.

Our job should stand out in the fact that it should be the goto job for a role thats needed. And even the ones were currently know for our moot in 99% of the situations in the current endgame. I love how SE and this games players constantly talk about job and game balance, when Abyssea is clearly an example of the exact opposite. Am I saying we can't furfill a role? no not at all, but if you or anyone else has another job, there gonna want you on that, not rdm.

My input:

1. RDM needs to have it's Parry skill greatly enhanced. If the focus on RDM is 'fencing' (ie, Fencers Earring, Fencers Ring, Fencing Degen, Estoqueur's gear) then we need to have at least a B in parry. I can understand the low shield skill, but Parry is a must.

2. RDM must have the 'Fencer' trait. To not have this trait on a job who's relic armor is obviously based on fencing (Duelists gear, Estoqueur's gear, anything with 'Fencer' in the name) is really just dumb. Sound harsh? Well it is! The equivalent would be giving WHM 'Berserker' and not giving it to WAR!

3. Fencer V. RDM exclusive, make it high level, 80 or 90. Leave the critical hit rate and TP bonus from Fencer IV and instead add 'Occasionally attacks twice' (sword only) and 'Occasionally counter-attacks after parrying'. This would give RDM's a good increase in damage output in a party, but also help out a little (just a little) during solo play.

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Originally Posted by SnapperTrx

My input:

1. RDM needs to have it's Parry skill greatly enhanced. If the focus on RDM is 'fencing' (ie, Fencers Earring, Fencers Ring, Fencing Degen, Estoqueur's gear) then we need to have at least a B in parry. I can understand the low shield skill, but Parry is a must.

2. RDM must have the 'Fencer' trait. To not have this trait on a job who's relic armor is obviously based on fencing (Duelists gear, Estoqueur's gear, anything with 'Fencer' in the name) is really just dumb. Sound harsh? Well it is! The equivalent would be giving WHM 'Berserker' and not giving it to WAR!

3. Fencer V. RDM exclusive, make it high level, 80 or 90. Leave the critical hit rate and TP bonus from Fencer IV and instead add 'Occasionally attacks twice' (sword only) and 'Occasionally counter-attacks after parrying'. This would give RDM's a good increase in damage output in a party, but also help out a little (just a little) during solo play.

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That's all semantics. It doesn't particularly matter if some names share a similar theme or not.

That said, I don't see any benefit in giving RDM fencer when they are best off subbing NIN and dualwielding if they want to Melee at all.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

That's all semantics. It doesn't particularly matter if some names share a similar theme or not.

That said, I don't see any benefit in giving RDM fencer when they are best off subbing NIN and dualwielding if they want to Melee at all.

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Point taken. Of course, I forget that there are a few weapon skills that I dont yet have, that would benefit greatly from dual wielding. Though I stand on point 1, I wish to retract points 2 and 3. I keep forgetting that I dont have any of the great weapon skills (Chant du Cygne, Death blossom).

I can think of a few uses for a native fencer trait.

As a RDM who doesn't whore himself to /NIN wherever he goes, a native fencer trait is welcomed.

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Originally Posted by Carth

As a RDM who doesn't whore himself to /NIN wherever he goes, a native fencer trait is welcomed.

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/DNC has its uses. Also, doesn't /WAR and /BLU lose in overall DPS versus Dual Wield?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

/DNC has its uses. Also, doesn't /WAR and /BLU lose in overall DPS versus Dual Wield?

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They do, by a landslide. Why would using Nin sub be considered "Whoring"? It's far and away the strongest melee sub RDM has.

If Rdm had native fencer it would give them a viable way to melee when being forced to use a non DW sub, ESPECIALLY Sch.

With fencer I could see meleeing with /sch pretty powerful for a mage sub and still give you the ability to nuke and support very effectively.

This goes double if jobs ever get to the point where they learn the empyrean WS natively like Mythic WSs where then subbing /war and using CDC with an OaX sword becomes very powerful.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

That's all semantics. It doesn't particularly matter if some names share a similar theme or not.

That said, I don't see any benefit in giving RDM fencer when they are best off subbing NIN and dualwielding if they want to Melee at all.

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Semantics or not it's still absurd that what was supposed to be a fencer/duelist has such rubbish parrying and doesn't even gain the trait of the same name.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

They do, by a landslide. Why would using Nin sub be considered "Whoring"? It's far and away the strongest melee sub RDM has.

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Because sometimes, I'm not just there to be a DD.

I duo -very- frequently with my best friend who is a SAM as well as a BLU. He is very much a glass cannon on SAM, while at the same time he tries to do as much damage as possible on his BLU. In these circumstances, I am the healer, tank, and DD, and after various experimentation with /NIN I learned there are many benefits from other subjobs when the situation calls for it. My go-to subjob is actually /PLD due to Shield Mastery (pre-update), Auto-Refresh, and the very strong hate tools. Sentinel has also saved my tushie many times. I go /BLU for supertank methods. /WAR and /DRK are used when the plan is to zerg a mob down and I have a very strong Sanguine Blade build for that. Did I mention Sanguine Blade is -fucking awesome- for tanking?

My /NIN build also isn't all that strong, admittedly. I'm still working on getting Khanda and Almace, and I don't have Death Blossom yet. If I did I probably would be using /NIN more. It's mainly the lack of Death Blossom that keeps me away from it.

The whole Fencer thing leads to old thoughts on how shields could better improve offense. Some think the answer lies in just throwing out shields with good stats. Not unreasonable, but inevitably we'd cookie cutter into "the best" for most given situations. On the other hand, I actually think Shield Mastery should be further expanded in some manner. It could be as simple as randomly covering people behind you with a shield block or just simply having the shield on could grant something like -delay or an insane amount of STP that both RDMs and PLDs could benefit from in the long run.

I think I called it "En Garde" or whatever, but a more specialized dual-wield limited to sword main-hand with dagger off-hand allowing access to both WS at once would be rather nice even if, at best, the -delay matched DW2. We could then sub the EX WS jobs for sword for their varying degrees of utility and getting a mix of the best of both worlds.

This is my take on how to make Red Mage desirable on the front lines. Some of my ideas are very similar to those I've seen proposed by others, and no idea is intended as a single fix to the issue. Taken as a group, I think the combination of traits, abilities and spells would open up new possibilities.

I added vague math-y details and durations and recasts and MP costs, etc, just trying to put forward the ideas. And before anyone goes saying Rdm would be overpowered; Getting all of my suggestions at one time, without other jobs getting updates would certainly be overpowering, but we're all going up to 99 (and merits beyond) together, so there's room to grow.

I'd also like to echo the suggestions to add merited spells to the normal list learned from scrolls, and have the merits adjust those spells in some way. As well as changing En-spells II to not check enhancing skill on each strike. And the change to Accession to work with Haste and Refresh II at least.

I liked Duelle's idea of "Escrime" for the Sword main + dagger offhand trait + sword/dagger ws's.


On to the ideas!

Existing abilities given to Red Mage:
Add Sanguine Blade to Rdm's native weaponskill list.
Add Job Trait: Occult Acumen, tiers gained at the same levels as Dark Knight, or earlier.
Do NOT add Job Trait "Fencer" (read next idea)

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Job Trait: Magic Fencer
While an En-spell is active, increases En-spell damage and the Rdm's Elemental Affinity with the currently active En-spell.
Tiers: (cumulative trait results, not additive)
20 (Base En-spell Damage+2, Elemental Affinity+2%)
40 (Base En-spell Damage+4, Elemental Affinity+4%)
60 (Base En-spell Damage+6, Elemental Affinity+6%)
80 (Base En-spell Damage+8, Elemental Affinity+8%)
99 (Base En-spell Damage+10, Elemental Affinity+10%)
(Edit: removed CritRate+2-10%, replaced with Elemental Affinity, Supersun's suggestion)

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Adjust En-spells II
Calculate damage based on the initial cast, not on-hit. That alone would probably be enough to make them great.

Edit: Removed my proposed "status-hit" addition to the En-spell 2's, replaced by a change to calculating of damage based on the initial casting, not on-hit.

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En-spells III
Make En-Spell III's that cause En-spell 1 range of "additional damage" and replace critical hits with the free, near-instant cast of the related tier 2 elemental spell. (Combined with the "Magic Fencer" trait, this could be signifigant)

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Job Ability: Tactical Casting
Level 25 Red Mage
Duration: 5min Recast: 5min
In this mode, spells cost TP instead of MP.
* Cannot cast spells for MP while this is in effect.
* MP cost for any spell is capped at 100TP.
* Can be canceled at any time.

Too much like Dancer? I really don't think so, and I really don't think it would be that bad anyway. (We have many different melee and mages performing the same roles in similar ways already.)

Red Mages could still fulfill their casting duties and as long as they're engaged with the enemy they'll have unlimited MP without resting or the danger of converting to restore MP.

Use of this Job Ability would also allow "Convert" to be used to fulfill its inverse function: restoring HP on the front lines, instead of MP on the backlines. (Refresh could still be used to refill their MP for this function)

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Job Ability: Runic Blade
Duration: 1 min or until any spell is cast on a target within range. (from any source: friend or enemy)
Recast: 1min
While wielding a blade, a Red Mage can stop attacking/casting and intercept any spell cast on a target within range of the effect. Intercepted spells have their effects canceled and the MP cost of the spell is absorbed by the Red Mage.
* Allowed "blades" would include Swords and Daggers (and "any job" Katanas, Great Katanas, and Great Swords for fun)
* Some spells would bypass Runic Blade entirely, such as Meteor, just like in FF6.

Used at the right time, the Red Mage could stop a potentially disasterous spell from damaging the group, and get a nice boost to their MP. They will have to be mindful of staying out of range of the other mages in the party, and good communication will be necessary with hybrid DD/Mages in melee range.

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Job Ability: En Garde (a popular name for a popular idea we probably all came up with independently, here's my spin)
* Raises Combat skills for Sword and Dagger to A-
* Unlocks all sword and dagger weaponskills that are not quested.
* Adds Job Trait: Riposte - This allows counterattacks when wielding a sword. Riposte-Counter ignores defense.
* Increases all magics' MP cost by 50%

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Job Ability: Invoke Burst
Target: 1 enemy
Duration: 1 minute/30seconds (see explanation)
Recast: 3 minutes
The next weaponskill used on the target allows the next spell cast on the target to magic burst based on the weaponskill's primary element.

* This would work similarly to how Dancers can create a skillchain with only one wild flourish and a weaponskill.
(Chainbound = Etherbound)
Example: Melee uses Shoulder Tackle on the Etherbound enemy. Someone casts thunder for (Impaction-based) Magic burst.
* Magic Bursts can be caused within 30 seconds after the weaponskill hits during the first 1minute duration of the effect. (The window of opportunity mages usually have to magic burst is extended by this ability.)

(The Elemental resist-down effect of en-spells would synchronize well with this ability, to make the most of bursts.)

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Spell: Reflect
Reflect one single target spell back at caster. (does not reflect -ga spells, but -ga spells do not remove the reflect status when they hit.)

This doesn't have to be Paladin exclusive, but it's a tactical tool that existed in past FF games, and covers one weak spot in the Paladin's defense. This may best be given to Whm, Rdm (especially Rdm) and Sch, then only much later if added to Pld.

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Spell: Brave (based on the FFT spell)
Single-party member target. (Level 50 Paladin, and later to 75 Rdm?)
* Increases attack +1 per level (max of 99)

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And a few fencing based-spells from FF1 to round things out and keep Red Mage unique in the support realm as well :)

Spell: Quicken
Target: Self-target only
Increases double attack rate for the duration of the effect.
* About 5%? (I'd rather not do the math) <--- This is why I don't like adding in numbers... they used it, and it was pitiful at this strength!
* Spell casting speed penalty of 5%

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Spell: Quicken II
Target: Entire party
Increases double attack, triple attack, and kick attack rates.
* Not as powerful as Quicken 1 (3%?), but adds to all 3 rates, so it could work out?
* Spell casting speed penalty of 5%

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Spell: Lock
Target: 1 enemy
Reduces enemy's evasion.

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One more thought: my post on Sword Spells further in this thread.

There we go, some melee RDM suggestions that encourage melee RDM to move up to the front lines, without overpowering mage RDM.

I'm of 2 minds with a Quick spell. The first being that if it's only DA, it should be like 10%. On the other hand, if it's a rolled up ball of DA/TA/QA, then you can put numbers like 5% for each. In the case of the former, you'd be at 20% with /WAR, and things like Brutal and Atheling can bump you up to 28%. Since both weapons could DA, we stand a better chance of finally antiquating Joyeuse for other weapons. Any other sub, you'll be 13/5/5. I may be mathing wrong, but for every 100 attack rounds single-wielding, that'd be 138 potential attacks while the more DA-minded route would be 128. You'd have some WS carry-over, but the big boys should still better in the long run.

I actually thought of an interesting idea today, and if implemented right could, solve the Rdm healing issue, add support to RDM melee, and more then justify a reason for Rdm to melee in most settings. Sounds too good to be true, right, well it probably is since this idea sounds like a ***** to actually code, but basically I thought what would happen if we combine the Aura buff idea with Seriha's Enspell damage bonus. Basically you can get a buff like Stoneskin Aura.

Stoneskin Aura works similar to the aura concept where Red Mage has become so proficient at casting spells on himself his spells actually have so much power they can radiate to fellow players around him (like an avatar's favor). Now the exact mechanics of the Stoneskin might have to vary with that the dev team can actually program, but my idea at least is that everyone receives the same stoneskin affect, that is to say any damage that the Rdm's party members take to their stoneskin received from the Rdm's aura are automatically deducted from the Red Mages's Stoneskin. In essence the Red Mage holds a "Super Stoneskin" that the entire party shares. Now what makes this Stoneskin special is that your enspell damage that you inflict to the mob is then ADDED to the "HP" of that stoneskin. In essence your enspell damage directly makes the stoneskin you share with the party stronger and able to absorb more damage. Now obviously the initial starting value of the Stoneskin Aura, how much extra damage resistance your enspells add, and how much said stoneskin should cap at are all up in the air, but I think if the concept is balanced right it could be very powerful.

And why stop there, why not add a "Haste Aura" where your haste is spread to the entire party and the more damage you inflict to the mob the stronger your haste becomes. As long as the final value is at least marginally stronger then the original haste even if the initial value is slightly lower and it doesn't take like a year to reach the cap I could see this VERY easily fixing a lot of Rdms problems. You could even do this with other buffs as well. I myself would love to see a TP Bonus version especially if you add a strong Elemental WS to Rdm. This could synergize especially well if elemental WS damage can also add to the auras power in addition to enspells.

Now people might be leaping out of their chairs screaming that this is broken, well if Rdm is allowed to go overboard with this it easily could be. That's why I also propose a drastic drawback, these buffs while active drain your MP. Now I'm not talking about something like -50 MP/tick, but maybe -1 or -2 MP/tick per buff on the Red Mage (depending on the power of the buff of course, Haste being more expensive then a TP Bonus). This should prevent Rdm from loading up every one of these imaginable and instead limit them to 1 or 2 that the party needs. This in conjunction with Rdms already large variety of tools should allow Rdm to support the party however he needs to. Now this may receive some objections, especially from the people who leveled Rdm to be a pure mage, but really, if you already haven't leveled another mage job because of abyssea you should really look into Whm, Blm, or Sch since they will all be what you want of Rdm and more especially by 99.

I've dabbled in the buff aura idea before and came to a similar conclusion about requiring perpetuation. However, my biggest hurdle at the time was integrating melee into it, as otherwise it just changes where the RDM stands in a battle and nothing more.

As is, an aura should be enticing to the RDM when you have 3 or more people to buff. Thus, in the case of Haste, you start looking at 120 MP over 180 seconds. However, you made that perpetuation 3 MP every tick, by the time 180 seconds have past you've spent the MP of 4.5 Hastes. Not exactly economical to the RDM. 2 MP would even it out, but we then hit an issue where you start adding other non-variable buffs (Phalanx, Barspells, Enspells, Refresh) in that their MP costs also vary, and demanding something like 10 MP every 3 seconds would drain the RDM fairly quickly if they're also throwing out the occasional nuke or cure.

Instead, I'd rather SE adopt a perpetuation model using more of the timing from Helix spells, also bumping each buff cost down to 1 per. So, for every 10 seconds, you could be charged for maintaining Haste, Refresh, Phalanx, an Enspell, a Spike, a Barspell, a Bar-resist, and a Gain spell. That's 8 MP every 10 seconds if you wanted one spell from all of those. In 9 of those seconds, you will have regained 9-24 MP depending on the Refresh tier. This gives you some more freedom with your MP, and as a bonus, when paired with Composure, we gain a lot more swing time.

The downside is, as mentioned before, is this doesn't quite solve the problem of melee inclusion. Now, our base strikes could be given a "Daze" that builds with subsequent blows, expanding the range of our "aura" from a default 5 to maybe 20, but having this constantly reset from mob to mob will also be inefficient. Thus, it might be better to consider it a non-cast buff on the RDM themselves that is perpetuated by landing successful strikes and maybe decaying every 10 seconds. I guess from here it's a matter of tiering the ranges, like 5/7.5/10/12.5/15/17.5/20. That would be 7 levels of proficiency, maybe going down 1 for every 10s you don't hit. However, since we need to account cast times or delays between pulls, it might be better to make the decay more like 30s. On the other hand, simply making it a hit per level doesn't quite seem right, either. This could be random between 2-4, or maybe we could tie some Enspell factor into it where you need to do like 50 damage per level. I dunno.

It's just brainstorming at this point, and I really wish we could get some insight from SE on their purpose for RDM, as otherwise doing all this could be a giant waste of time.

Sorry if this was mentioned but i haven't been able to read the whole thread yet.

I really like the idea of using enspells to increase our melee capability.

What I would be most interested in seeing is an enspell that absorbs the mobs TP.

Its like one spell that encompasses all of the job.
- a reason to melee
- enhances tp for the rdm to increase WS dmg
- it's a new kind of enfeeble
- and reduces the damage output of the mob (healing aspect?)

I think it would be a very simple solution to the problem that really doesn't have to effect anything else already in existence.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

However, my biggest hurdle at the time was integrating melee into it, as otherwise it just changes where the RDM stands in a battle and nothing more.

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How did you like the idea of Enspells affecting the potency of the buffs (especially the stoneskin aura one)? I did write that late at night and might not have properly have thought out all the cons, but at least from what i can think of it woud make an interesting healing mechanic that uses our melee that doesn't step on Dnc.

I can't say I'd ever see SE being okay with a perpetually renewable Stoneskin without giving it a worthlessly low cap or limiting the conversion rate from Enspell damage. In general, they've seemingly been a bit fickle with Stoneskingas in Earthen Ward and Diamondhide being meh in the player's hands. Accession and Stoneskin is a later exception to this, but one might argue the stratagem cost and increased MP/recast was also part of their balancing. The fact items that enhance it don't carry over to the non-caster also seems like a nod toward their dislike of physical invulnerability that isn't a 2 hour or limited to a rare temp consumable.

You're also asking for a bit of a code nightmare since not only will the mob need to store enspell damage done, but then document how it's been applied to other players. One-handers will strike more often, thus you could see them getting 20 here, 20 there, etc.. Two-handers, however, might wind up getting 40 per whack. Without making this consideration, you wind up making the ability better for one-handers, and I'm not really game for prompting segregation amongst the classes.

The above is also why I didn't include Stoneskin, Blink, or Aquaveil in my talk about a perpetuating aura, as these are not fixed effects and vary as you take damage or absorb a hit. I also realize I forgot to include Regen in the category of buffs that would work.

More toward Enspells in general and popular ideas I've seen over time, giving them additional enfeebles is not something I'm totally against, but at times it seems redundant, worthless, or too good NOT to use like if applying Stun to Enthunder, thus making every other Enspell choice a bad one. I've been leaning more to the pool/level/sublimation mechanic ever since those and WHM's Solace came around, but honestly, how SE would decide to convert it is up in the air. I know with my old Elemental Feedback idea, the offensive side was more like a Saboteur on a 10s timer for debuffs (though it favored durations more than potency). The defensive was more like SCH's Perpetuance stratagem, though also offering potency boosts.

...which is all reminding me of how ideas for RDM have come and gone, often finding their ways too other jobs. Bleh.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

More toward Enspells in general and popular ideas I've seen over time, giving them additional enfeebles is not something I'm totally against, but at times it seems redundant, worthless, or too good NOT to use like if applying Stun to Enthunder, thus making every other Enspell choice a bad one. I've been leaning more to the pool/level/sublimation mechanic ever since those and WHM's Solace came around, but honestly, how SE would decide to convert it is up in the air.

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Personally, enspells with added effects aren't that great an idea because of the way it can be lopsided in one particular way. I do feel that if you want to do something in the style of solace it'd have to be a bit more direct and a little more passive. I'd be all for some sort of proc while melee'ing that made cures shorter to cast (or instant) to play along with our supposed "support" role, but I don't think the buff system in FFXI would really work with something like that.

Just brainstorming here:

My proposed "status-hit" addition to the En-spell 2's could be removed and simply be a change to calculating of damage based on the initial casting, not on-hit. (I agree the status effects may be more of a deciding factor than elemental damage type)

More importantly,
What if my proposed "Magic Fencer" Job Trait had the additional effect:
While an En-spell is active, and the Red Mage is engaged with a target in melee range:
Grants "Quick Magic" (same effect granted by the Atma of Apocalypse) with an activation rate of 2/4/6/8/10% rising by tier.

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Originally Posted by AyinDygra

More importantly,
What if my proposed "Magic Fencer" Job Trait had the additional effect:
While an En-spell is active, and the Red Mage is engaged with a target in melee range:
Grants "Quick Magic" (same effect granted by the Atma of Apocalypse) with an activation rate of 2/4/6/8/10% rising by tier.

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I'd prefer a proc that can be "saved" and used within a time limit, not something that can just proc whenever it wants and happens to do so when you least need it.

I like the +Enspell part of magic fencer, but I'm not sure the +critical damage fits it well. Especially given the fact that if we then sub warrior the original fencer will stack on top of it and give us +15% crit rate at 99...that's a lot of +crit%. I was going to suggest TP Bonus but then stopped for the same reason above lol.

One creative idea I can think of is granting "Elemental Affinity +10% of the element that matches our corresponding Enspell. That would additionally enhance our Enspells even more by increasing their damage by +10% AND if SE decides to be awesome and give us an elemental WS that has its element vary depending on the enspell it would also increase that by +10%. And considering this is a fencer trait it would not work with staves which would eliminate the majority of the broken argument against that while at the same time relieving our "dependence" on them since we would also receive a +10% Magic accuracy increase for one element as well. It would also give us more incentive to nuke while meleeing since there's not as much need to switch into a staff since it will only increase your damage by an additional +5% (for an HQ staff).

I like Supersun's ideas on the adjustments to "Magic Fencer." I had not considered the stacking of Fencer and Magic Fencer.

Perhaps another idea:

Sword Spells: While related to en-spells, these are more for spike damage, than damage over time. This new line of spells would have accuracy based on the main equipped weapon. These would cost MP and TP to use.

Tier 1-4 Sword Spells: They require the same MP needed to cast the related spell plus 50TP.
A normal physical attack accompanied by the instant cast of the related Tier 1-4 spell. (maybe only up to tier 3? A good candidate for testing on the announced-to-be-opened test server)
Blazing Sword I-IV
Frozen Sword I-IV
Thunder Sword I-IV
Wind Sword I-IV
Stone Sword I-IV
Water Sword I-IV

Other Low Tier Sword Spells:
Envenomed Sword (poison), Bio Sword, Silencing Sword, Slowing Sword, Gravity Sword

Tier 5 Sword Spells: They require the same MP needed to cast the related spell plus 100TP.
A normal physical attack with a chance to critical, accompanied by the instant cast of the related ancient magic.
Flare Blade, Freeze Blade, Burst Blade, Tornado Blade, Quake Blade, Flood Blade

Other High Tier Sword Spells:
Viral Blade (Virus), Addler Blade, Break Blade, Paralyzing Blade, Dispelling Blade, Stunning Blade, Plague Blade

Some notes:
* The physical hit MUST land for the related sword spell to cast.
* Sword Spells would have a longer recast than the related spells that are cast along with the physical attack (add normal casting time to normal recasting time = sword spell recast) to offset the very quick normal casting time (very fast, like physical blue magic.)
* Sword spells cannot be used to magic burst (and they do not interrupt magic bursting conditions either).

Ayn's idea reminds me of an idea I once had.

Job Abilities
Spellblade (1 minute cooldown): Allows the Red Mage to infuse their weapon with one elemental magic spell, allowing it to take effect instantly. Magic cast through Spellblade counts as if it had been normally casted, thus allowing it to act as a magic burst if used after a skillchain. Requires Sword or Dagger equipped in the main hand slot.

Job Traits
Magic Fencer: Grants TP bonus to spells cast through Spellblade.

* The idea is designed to serve as burst, but meant to also evolve and change at higher levels, where Spellblade would become on-demand burst once Magic Fencer enters the picture instead of being solely used to land a quick MB if needed.
* Spellblade's accuracy is derived from melee accuracy.
* The elemental feedback idea could be tied to spellblade, if deemed appropriate and adjusted accordingly.
* Aside from having a 1-minute cooldown, the actual spell cast through this JA would be put on its own cooldown as well.
* It is also part of a much bigger set of changes.

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Originally Posted by AyinDygra

Sword Spells

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Seems...not necessary. I mean it costs what the normal spell costs +50 TP? Why not just cast normal spell instead.
It also does seem to step on Blue Mages toes as they do tend to specialize in Spike spells. Sure, our damage is magical and theirs is physical, but I'd almost just prefer they buffed Blus magical side if it's not strong enough.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Seems...not necessary. I mean it costs what the normal spell costs +50 TP? Why not just cast normal spell instead.

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I guess I should have included more of my reasoning in the notes:

This also grants RDMs access to spells they normally don't have (Ancient Magic, and new enfeebles) given the additional requirement of costing TP as well as MP, so they're not just new spells added to the normal spell list -- this requires the RDM to be on the dangerous front lines to get access to their "full" spell list. RDM can still be useful on the back lines, but this encourages front line participation. (Since this topic is about how to improve RDM melee, I haven't addressed the mage side very much at all, aside from my first idea post with new spells, but I doubt SE would normally just give RDM access to Ancient Magic, etc)

Secondly, as to why not just cast the normal spell instead? They have their own separate recast timers so the same spell can be cast almost instantly, as long as the RDM has TP. (something similar to dual casting or simultaneous casting that has been suggested in the past and was rejected by SE as being "impossible.")

And in reply to the BLU thing... I think BLU stepped on RDM's toes first. >.> ) It's not like there isn't already Black Mage, White Mage, and Scholar casting magic the same as Red Mage... and Dark Knight and Blue Mage casting magic accompanied by their melee... The theme of BLU's spells are completely different from normal mages anyway.

Red Mage has mixed both the Red Mage and Magic Knight of past FF games, similar to FF1's Red Mage, being able to melee respectably, and cast low levels of White and Black Magic for utility. The dual-school casting aspect of the job has really been given to Scholar, while Red Mage has taken on a majority of the aspects of the "Magic Knight" from past FF games. They focus on spell casting on their swords as their unique thing, and the en-spells were a good start. This is the real meat of the job, in my opinion... and it's been lacking due to their magical prowess and the role they have taken on in FFXI society with a lack of WHM's, and the need for refresh in this game's combat system... both pulling RDM away from their focus.

Edit: One more reason to use the Sword Spell: Instant cast of the spell, for the cost of TP. This combines the casting time with the old recast, to make a really long recast timer for the spells instead. This alone would make the sword spells useful for front line casting while meleeing.

I wasn't referring to the aesthetical factor of stepping on blue mages toes. Sure there are other jobs that are on the front lines casting magic. I was more referring how this essentially mimics the role Blue plays on a more technical level. That being, jobs on the front like casting spells for spike damage.

I certainly believe there's room on the front lines for another type of mage/melee hybrid, but in a sense your idea is more or less mimicking Blue Mage because if you remove the damage types between the 2, magical and physical, it's essentially the exact same thing. Jobs doing spike damage with their spells and only gaining access to all their spells if they are in range...except ours cost TP

I'm not saying there's a way this couldn't work, but as it stands right now that idea just sounds like Blue Mage -1.

I mean there's a variety of different ways to assist on the front lines. We don't need something that is so similar to blue.
(that and the simpler and easier the idea the better chance it has of being added. The dev team can't spend ALL their time on Rdm :P)

Anyone that thinks a BLU's magical side sucks now hasn't seen a good BLU. Water nukes are probably the most universally potent set with Corrosive Ooze, Regurgitation, and Acrid Stream as front-runners in proper builds. Meanwhile, you get things like a pimped out Charged Whisker allowing them solo AoE burn without facing diminishing damage like BLM's -agas. Thermal Pulse isn't bad as a fire nuke and Everyone's Grudge can be decent if you build toward that, too. I do agree their old magical spells blow and could use a looking over in both potency and MP costs, but that's a matter for the BLU board.

Either way, I just want to advise against clogging suggestions into simple En-effects. As is, the category is basically limited to one, otherwise we could benefit from Sambas or not run into conflicts with weapons with their own innate effects. Even with just six Enspells, we tend to stick to Enblizzard since most also have Ice merits to help with MACC. Suggesting a RDM just spell spam to cycle them between swings would be, in turn, quite silly since they could just cast the normal versions unless the En-whatevers are way, way better. Of course, you're not at all helping our casting burden or addressing how useless enfeebles tend to be on fodder mobs or detrimental to counter tanks who don't want their NMs slowed/para'd so they can kill more quickly.

Overall, multi-purpose debuffs would be good. Cutting down on our need to cycle would be another step. When we get the freedom of time, we're given a greater luxury to actually be versatile and not focused on one thing. And no, Double Cast will not help this no matter how many times someone inanely suggests it.

i'd like to see a spell that has slow para blind addle and a def/att down effect all rolled into one. make it lvl 99 rdm only.. call it.. "cripple" or something. if a mob is immune to any particular aspect of cripple, the other effects still land.

each individual effect would be at around the potency of the unmerited spells... so slow1, para1, blind1, dia2 and bio2. (not literally dia2 and bio2, i know they don't gel.. but that much def/att down, maybe no dot at all)

give it a quick cast/recast time, and you've just freed up a lot of time for the rdm to actually swing his weapon. instead of spending so much time enfeebling every mob, it's dead by the time the last spell lands, you just cripple it.

it's not op since it's all effects you can apply to the mob anyway, slightly weaker. (given that some effects use int to determine potency, and others mnd, and they are all by nature weaker than there merit equivalents) it just lets you do it in one fifth the time.

this could be a helpful utility spell for mid tier mobs, whereas when you move to tougher mobs or nm's an rdm may still choose to use the individual spells, optimized through gear.



it's not a DIRECT melee buff, but it frees us up to actually swing while still doing rdm things, and hopefully bringing back a bit of what has been lost to the job recently.

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

i'd like to see a spell that has slow para blind addle and a def/att down effect all rolled into one. make it lvl 99 rdm only.. call it.. "cripple" or something. if a mob is immune to any particular aspect of cripple, the other effects still land.

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That would go hand in hand with something else I once came up with.

Job Abilities
Readiness (3 minute cooldown): Allows the Red Mage to cast up to four enhancing magic spells on themselves at the same time. The Red Mage can set these four spells through the Readiness interface. Each spell is put on its own cooldown, and the casting time of Readiness is the average casting time of all four spells before Fast Cast is factored.

To me this is basically Refresh, Haste, Enspell and Phalanx in one shot. Granted, I originally thought of this as part of a melee stance that by nature has longer buff durations (and does away with composure as we know it), but the JA alone would fit what you seem to be looking for.

On the topic of copying mechanics from BLU, let me just say that it is less about copying and more on playing off concepts that make our melee actually relevant to the rest of the things we can do. Directly relevant, at that (you can't have a magic fencer without mixing melee and magic together, and enspells are a step in that direction but not the entire thing). Also do keep in mind that BLU as it is came about because the devs refused to fix RDM at the time and were hoping the melee crowd would jump off RDM to play BLU instead.

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Also do keep in mind that BLU as it is came about because the devs refused to fix RDM at the time and were hoping the melee crowd would jump off RDM to play BLU instead.

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Until a dev comes out and says that, it's pretty much player assumption... and popular fodder for the anti-melee crowd. Rather, I see them designing BLU with some of RDM's shortcomings in mind, skirting the staff issue in part by tying physical spell accuracy to your main-hand, keeping their ranges relatively short so they're in melee range anyway, and basically making them quick casting and MP efficient so they can swing more. The general lack of party buffs didn't hurt that last one, either.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

That would go hand in hand with something else I once came up with.

Job Abilities
Readiness (3 minute cooldown): Allows the Red Mage to cast up to four enhancing magic spells on themselves at the same time. The Red Mage can set these four spells through the Readiness interface. Each spell is put on its own cooldown, and the casting time of Readiness is the average casting time of all four spells before Fast Cast is factored.

To me this is basically Refresh, Haste, Enspell and Phalanx in one shot. Granted, I originally thought of this as part of a melee stance that by nature has longer buff durations (and does away with composure as we know it), but the JA alone would fit what you seem to be looking for.

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agreed, it's sorta the other side of the same coin, and would be equally helpful for the same reasons.