FFXI fixed!

But not every casual will always work towards long-term goals such as a relic or empyrean. I don't have any currently, but I have done considerable progress towards Almace and should have one soon. As BLU is one of my favorite jobs. And I also plan to do a Vere, Twash, Mandau and Ragnarok all in due time but I want to take my time and have fun doing so instead of mindlessly grinding for a week or two for the empys and a few months for said relics.

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Originally Posted by Komori

But not every casual will always work towards long-term goals such as a relic or empyrean. I don't have any currently, but I have done considerable progress towards Almace and should have one soon. As BLU is one of my favorite jobs. And I also plan to do a Vere, Twash, Mandau and Ragnarok all in due time but I want to take my time and have fun doing so instead of mindlessly grinding for a week or two for the empys and a few months for said relics.

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Sounds alot like me on this aspect. I could have in all honesty finished my Excalibur for my RDM months ago by just Fell Cleaving, it would have taken me about a good 2~3 weeks at most, instead it has taken me 6 months because I have been going slow with it. Rather than bore myself out of my mine simply for a weapon which I would look at as an annoyance to obtain rather than a powerful tool of death that I would then wield.

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Originally Posted by Shoko

If that's the case, Joe Pink needs to step out of the pink and get himself some AF3+1 or AF3+2. It's not hard. On top of that, it's casual content. Also you automatically assume that every shout for VWs such as Kaggen or Akvan requires relic/empy. This is not the case all of the time; simply only how the specific person running the event wishes to set it up.

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You must have missed my post about the Olympics and natural limits on skill mastery being different for every person. They only send Jimmy Leet to the Olympics because his skill sets are near superhuman levels. Jimmy pink doesn't qualify in the same tier. However, They do have Special Olympics for the people with disabilities. These people also get gold medals. This example is a bit extreme but, it is a good representation of the reality between Joe Pink and Jimmy Leet on this game.

There are several factors here that can limit Joe/Jane Pink that go beyond their control. Here are a few.

#1 Personality. (Social compatibility)
#2 Skill or natural limits.
#3 Time limits and/or schedule
#4 Luck

So, You still want to defend that argument, or do you also think the people who are less fortunate unworthy like the people on the other side of the field? They might not openly say it but the distinct wording creates that moral assumption.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

You must have missed my post about the Olympics and natural limits on skill mastery being different for every person. They only send Jimmy Leet to the Olympics because his skill sets are near superhuman levels. Jimmy pink doesn't qualify in the same tier. However, They do have Special Olympics for the people with disabilities. These people also get gold medals. This example is a bit extreme but, it is a good representation of the reality between Joe Pink and Jimmy Leet on this game.

There are several factors here that can limit Joe/Jane Pink that go beyond their control. Here are a few.

#1 Personality. (Social compatibility)
#2 Skill or natural limits.
#3 Time limits and/or schedule
#4 Luck

So, You still want to defend that argument, or do you also think the people who are less fortunate unworthy like the people on the other side of the field? They might not openly say it but the distinct wording creates that moral assumption.

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I dont see why you compare this with the olympics (and please the special olympics?), thats a form of contest where you dont join if you're not part of the top in that field already, and also there can only be one winner in the olympics. Its not like only one person on a server is entitled to the best gear, everyone can get it if they want. Most of us who are in favour of more challenging content have stated that it should be accessible for all who are willing to make an effort. it sounds like some of you would rather see this game turn into the special olympics where everyone gets a medal at the end of the run.

Bit off topic here cause this thread wasnt about people being pink:
#1 Personality, I dont see what personality has to do with people not getting out of their pink gear. this is an MMO, being social seems like one of the basic aspects of these kind of games. Everyone can get into an ls, or build a group of friends willing to farm some seals so you can get AF3+1.
#2 Skills have very little to do with a game like ff, you learn your JA/MA/WS and know what to use in which situation I dont call that skill thats just paying attention, you fail once maybe next time will be better and learn from your mistakes. Skill in this game can be molded into any form.
#3 Time limits, getting AF3 isnt that time demanding, getting some pieces of AF1 ask for more time to get then AF3+1
#4 Luck... Well you got me there but those people you call elitist also have to work with the luck factor

Conclusion, there is no reason why someone cant get AF3+1. There's a big difference between someone joining an event in pink cause he just finished lvling his job and hasnt come around to get it and people who show up every week in that same pink outfit.

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Originally Posted by vienne

I dont see why you compare this with the olympics (and please the special olympics?), thats a form of contest where you dont join if you're not part of the top in that field already, and also there can only be one winner in the olympics. Its not like only one person on a server is entitled to the best gear, everyone can get it if they want. Most of us who are in favour of more challenging content have stated that it should be accessible for all who are willing to make an effort. it sounds like some of you would rather see this game turn into the special olympics where everyone gets a medal at the end of the run.

Bit off topic here cause this thread wasnt about people being pink:
#1 Personality, I dont see what personality has to do with people not getting out of their pink gear. this is an MMO, being social seems like one of the basic aspects of these kind of games. Everyone can get into an ls, or build a group of friends willing to farm some seals so you can get AF3+1.
#2 Skills have very little to do with a game like ff, you learn your JA/MA/WS and know what to use in which situation I dont call that skill thats just paying attention, you fail once maybe next time will be better and learn from your mistakes. Skill in this game can be molded into any form.
#3 Time limits, getting AF3 isnt that time demanding, getting some pieces of AF1 ask for more time to get then AF3+1
#4 Luck... Well you got me there but those people you call elitist also have to work with the luck factor

Conclusion, there is no reason why someone cant get AF3+1. There's a big difference between someone joining an event in pink cause he just finished lvling his job and hasnt come around to get it and people who show up every week in that same pink outfit.

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This reply sums up my sentiments. There's really no excuse as to why a person in below par gear can't at least get AF3+1. That content has been dummed so far down, you can even quest for it at an extremely slow pace.

Also I feel that if you aren't willing to put in the time and effort into gearing yourself properly, you don't deserve the finer things that the rest of the players are aiming for, plain and simple. Everyone is running the same rat race for the top gear, should they choose to aim for it.

I don't know why peopel don't get +1 at the very least. None of my jobs have been pink since the cap first raised, even my COR12 and RNG7 have full +1 with 3/5 or 2/5 +2 already. All jobs I level have weapons to level into as well, I do the gearing before the job can wear such armor. Why others don't do this, I don't know. It literally takes an hour or two altogether to get a piece of +1 or +2.

I know of the hyper minority type of casual player that Sarick is referring too. They are the types of players that moan and complain about the general difficulty of events to get top gear, and yet will put in zero effort. They are also more than likely to be super reclusive and won't join LSes devoted to events. These same players won't put in the effort to get the most basic of high level equipment, even if it's for their main job.

They make up just about 1 or 2% of the general FFXI population over all, if not less.

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Originally Posted by Ragmar

Random number like 3/4ths are fun.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I won't because it's irrelevant. That's a completely made up number with zero relevance to this topic.

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It's not random and it's not irrelevant. It is a lowball estimate as to how many people would be excluded from the drops your requesting. In reality, something harder than what is currently available (because nothing seems rewarding right now apparently) would probably be out of the question for more players than that. Think really hard. How are they goiing to design something that's hard enough to make you feel accomplished, but easy enough that even 1/4 of the rest of the players can finish it too? They can't. The number is just to illustrate the size of the problem. It's not meant to be an exact count of the number of people who can't do imaginary things. I think it's obvious to everyone that I wasn't claiming to have measured the skill level of every player in the game. Your just splitting hairs here.

I look around PJ and I don't even see 1/4 of people wearing all of the best drops from current events, and you want something that even less people can get.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I do that. I perform the best I can, always. It would just be nice to actually be rewarded for it. And the bolded part is wrong. See any one of my fifty previous posts for an explanation.

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It's not wrong. This thread is about getting gear that lesser skilled players cannot get. It's not about getting it faster than lesser skilled players. If you don't want lesser skilled players (and by skilled, I mean people who don't have an shell full of relic wielders at their disposal) from getting the gear, then you are debating the wrong person.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

The bolded part is wrong, again. And I agree with the rest. I play for achievement, I already do everything what you say. I play to progress my character. I do things that don't give me anything other than the satisfaction of having done them. As I said before, it would simply be nice to actually be rewarded something useful for your efforts. Not everyone shares my mentality and does shit for the hell of it, and despite what you may think I'm very sure that applies to a lot of people because I already know many people this applies to personally. Everyone wants a reward, and speed is rarely an issue. The only difference to now is that skill does not play a big role in many of the events. If there were no rewards at all, no one would be playing, not even you.

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I'm not even sure what your arguing for anymore...? It sounds like you like the content already in the game and you don't want gear that normal players can't get. Which is the opposite of what the op is asking for. If all you want is less RNG based crap, just say it, because that is not what the OP wants. He is trying to play innocent, but his motivation is to draw a firm line between who he sees as entitled and the unworthy.

I'm fine with there being more skill involved, but the rewards should be attainable by everyone if they are going to affect performance. You keep repeating that AF+2 is great, but I'm sure that you realize that with every new event they come out with, it gets less and less great in comparison right? How many iterations of new gear before AF3+2 is irrelevant? Bear in mind, that the gear doesn't just have to be "Good enough" to get by, it has to be impressive enough to get an ally to accept you.

Currently, I get crap on every VW run I do because my LOL SAM has a TP Bonus +100 GK and not a masa. I parse everything. Even when I die a lot, I'm never anywhere near the bottom of the parse. A lot of the time I'm at the top. That is the mentality that I want to get away from. The mentality that someone is gimp because "look at their gear, it's gimpy". Gear is not a good way to measure skill, and I don't want it to be used as such. No matter how well they design an event, there will always be a loophole that allows gimps to get the gear. Why not look for a less disruptive reward then?

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Originally Posted by vienne

I dont see why you compare this with the olympics (and please the special olympics?), thats a form of contest where you dont join if you're not part of the top in that field already, and also there can only be one winner in the olympics. Its not like only one person on a server is entitled to the best gear, everyone can get it if they want. Most of us who are in favour of more challenging content have stated that it should be accessible for all who are willing to make an effort. it sounds like some of you would rather see this game turn into the special olympics where everyone gets a medal at the end of the run.

Bit off topic here cause this thread wasnt about people being pink:
#1 Personality, I dont see what personality has to do with people not getting out of their pink gear. this is an MMO, being social seems like one of the basic aspects of these kind of games. Everyone can get into an ls, or build a group of friends willing to farm some seals so you can get AF3+1.
#2 Skills have very little to do with a game like ff, you learn your JA/MA/WS and know what to use in which situation I dont call that skill thats just paying attention, you fail once maybe next time will be better and learn from your mistakes. Skill in this game can be molded into any form.
#3 Time limits, getting AF3 isnt that time demanding, getting some pieces of AF1 ask for more time to get then AF3+1
#4 Luck... Well you got me there but those people you call elitist also have to work with the luck factor

Conclusion, there is no reason why someone cant get AF3+1. There's a big difference between someone joining an event in pink cause he just finished lvling his job and hasnt come around to get it and people who show up every week in that same pink outfit.

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First off Joe Pink is a symbolism. Second the people who are lower tier aren't all about pink gear. It's also the weapons and other limiting factors.

Last and most important. If the special gear isn't such a big deal why would it only be reserved for the hardcore? You see where I'm going here? If they want special gear then on top of it being in the Jimmy Leet pool it should also be in the lesser pool at a lower drop rate. That's about as fair as it gets. Since you call yourself a Joe Pink I find it a bid odd that you'd defend this at all.


OH, I see your Arcons girl, buddy, mule. It explains everything.:rolleyes:

Had to comment on this.

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Originally Posted by vienne

#1 Personality, I dont see what personality has to do with people not getting out of their pink gear.

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It has all the relevance in the world. If people don't like you or think poorly of you utility is lost when you ask to participate. Everything in that list I wrote was summed up to it's most minor core. I didn't feel like defining every detail associated with each bullet point. I assumed people reading them would branch out each point at a higher level.

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Originally Posted by Shoko

They make up just about 1 or 2% of the general FFXI population over all, if not less.

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(I'm going to respond to this Arcon style in my own words.)

This is irrelevant those are made up numbers.

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Originally Posted by Komori

But even for lol monsters like Kaggen and Akvan etc. I've been turned down for not having any empyreans or relics. So if I get turned down for "easy peasy" content for having good gear other than nyzul or empy/relic. Joe/Jane Pink will never, ever get to see the content your asking for.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Yup, been trying to say this the last (lost count) pages.

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Only one crucial thing you're missing: that's content which isn't cleared with your linkshell but with random people. Random people will always want X of this and Y of that, to make sure their alliance performs as well as it can under the premise that you get a bunch of complete strangers under one leadership to kill a somewhat challenging NM.

However, it's very different when you do it with your own LS. I'm not talking about HNMLS, I'm talking about your everyday casual linkshell. Friends and family. People who will want to play with you regardless of gear. And yes, I cannot disagree that if absolutely everyone in that LS sucks then they will have problems completing that content. But if even one person is skilled in the bunch they can help the others out. They can educate them and show them what to do. And unless you found a group of ~20 completely ignorant and slow people, then you'll get better as a group. I know this because I've been through it more than once. Four times, to be precise. In my very first linkshell, in my second and longest lasting linkshell, in my Dynamis linkshell (which was a very good example of that) and in my current linkshell again.

And from the hundreds of random people I've played with and helped with and tried to teach about the game, even despite meeting some sad displays of lack of mental direction, I've still seen them move ahead and most of them got to participate in events, either with us or other people.

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Originally Posted by Komori

But not every casual will always work towards long-term goals such as a relic or empyrean.

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So you complain that someone who doesn't want to invest time in easy to obtain items won't get hard to obtain items?

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Originally Posted by Komori

And I also plan to do a Vere, Twash, Mandau and Ragnarok all in due time but I want to take my time and have fun doing so instead of mindlessly grinding for a week or two for the empys and a few months for said relics.

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So you rather mindlessly grind for months with some idle chatter along the way? Personally I don't see the benefit, but to each their own. I don't think this applies to the majority though. The casual people I know who do relics prefer to get them over with as soon as they can. The others are usually not bothered enough to even try seriously and just take it on a case-by-case basis. There's hardly any middle ground.

(Oh and you can still FC with a linkshell. We also did that for many people in our LS.)

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Y#1 Personality. (Social compatibility)
#2 Skill or natural limits.
#3 Time limits and/or schedule
#4 Luck

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Those factors already limit them, and they always will, in any game ever.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

If you don't want lesser skilled players (and by skilled, I mean people who don't have an shell full of relic wielders at their disposal) from getting the gear, then you are debating the wrong person.

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I never really argued your opinion and I don't intend to. Most of what you say is dead on. You just seem to think I want content like Legion v5, that absolutely no one except the absolutely most hardcore people are able to clear. Which is not the case. I want reasonably hard content. Content that is challenging yet not out of reach for anyone.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I'm not even sure what your arguing for anymore...? It sounds like you like the content already in the game and you don't want gear that normal players can't get.

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I specifically mentioned both of these things, twice. I said I was happy with the game as it is, if it wasn't I wouldn't be playing. Neo-Einherjar and Legion are great additions. The only reason I'm not doing them with my casual shell is not that I don't wanna try it, but because people were less and less interested and I couldn't muster up the people to actually do the events. It was a simple manpower requirement we couldn't match.

Which is why, in my previous post, I said that I'd approve of a scaling mechanism. Something that scales in difficulty with the number of people you bring. That would definitely bring my LS up to that content as well. Sadly though, I don't believe SE can pull that off with any reasonable result.

I'm not sure why any of this comes as a shock to you, this is nothing new. I said all of that in previous posts.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Which is the opposite of what the op is asking for. If all you want is less RNG based crap, just say it, because that is not what the OP wants. He is trying to play innocent, but his motivation is to draw a firm line between who he sees as entitled and the unworthy.

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I also said that I don't know the OP or his motivations, and I'm not agreeing with him, I just found his proposal interesting. And I didn't (and still don't) read what you do into his posts. Sure, some of his posts seem a bit overly aggressive, but I'm willing to attribute that to being provoked by mindlessly insulting replies of certain ignorant parties on the other end of the spectrum.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Bear in mind, that the gear doesn't just have to be "Good enough" to get by, it has to be impressive enough to get an ally to accept you.

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As I said above, that's the VW mentality. Shout groups of complete strangers. They don't know you, so they don't know how you perform. Having a relic or empyrean does not guarantee you performing well, but it does indicate that you're invested in your job which increases the likelihood that you're a better player. That's why they're asking for those things. This does not apply to a social linkshell, and I do believe that that content should be able to be cleared by social players with practice and patience.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Since you call yourself a Joe Pink I find it a bid odd that you'd defend this at all.

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I can tell you why. Because she was in my previous linkshell and is in my current one and she can confirm what I said. Casual people are able to clear hard content if they don't approach it alone. I told you we had almost exclusively casual players (we didn't have any relic players until the end of the 75 era, when one of us got it). Yet we cleared almost everything level 75 had to offer (except HNM, which we didn't even attempt due to competition and spawn hours), with the aforementioned casuals. We did all Dynamis zones, killed everything in sea (except AV) and sky, every ZNM (except PW), Limbus all the time and had several smaller statics for Assaults, Nyzul and Salvage runs. And I know of plenty other linkshells who did similar things.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

OH, I see your Arcons girl, buddy, mule. It explains everything.:rolleyes:

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You must be really desperate to grasp at straws like that. You'd take any excuse to invalidate our opinions, wouldn't you? Not that it would invalidate them if she was any of that, but I know you'd like to think so. Sadly, I can't find an equally convenient explanation for your lack of logical comprehension.

All she's done is give you an example of exactly what I meant. But it seems you don't deal well with criticism.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

(I'm going to respond to this Arcon style in my own words.)

This is irrelevant those are made up numbers.

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Can say it's made up numbers all you want, but the general population of players have at least one or two friends and does stuff with them, at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

OH, I see your Arcons girl, buddy, mule. It explains everything.:rolleyes:

Had to comment on this.


It has all the relevance in the world. If people don't like you or think poorly of you utility is lost when you ask to participate. Everything in that list I wrote was summed up to it's most minor core. I didn't feel like defining every detail associated with each bullet point. I assumed people reading them would branch out each point at a higher level.

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I'll comment on your personality thing first, how many times do people have to point it out for you? getting AF3+1 can be done solo (and yes even in pink) or if thats to slow for you, you only need one person to help you to get seals... I mean seriously if the whole server thinks you're a douche it could be a problem but i dont think there are alot of people out there who got blisted by an entire server. 1 friend thats all you need if your personality cant handle that well then maybe an MMO isnt your kind of game and you're better of living in a cave.

And then me being arcon's "girl/buddy/mule" i'm a living breathing person with my own personality and my own thoughts and referring to me as his girl is quite sexist in my eyes. We happen to be in the same ls and we happen to think very differently about many things in this game but on the factor challenge we agree. How low can you go to bring this up in a discussion...? To reply with something Arcon said and which you enjoy quoting too :
This is irrelevant and only shows what kind of person you are, not me. It comes over to me that because I know Arcon I'm not entitled to an opinion and should not voice my thoughts on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I can tell you why. Because she was in my previous linkshell and is in my current one and she can confirm what I said.

All she's done is give you an example of exactly what I meant. But it seems you don't deal well with criticism.

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I'm not an idiot, she just started posting recently, In your LS and same nation area. As for not dealing with criticism you speak from experience. I used to have some respect for you Arcon but after this topic you threw all that out the window.

Nothing that's being ask on this said of the field is going to topple your grand agenda. You sir can't compromise even the slightest this means you have an issue. Look at all my post I'm up to 88% compatible with your agenda that's not a low F'n number. That leaves a mere 12% we're disagreeing with.

#1 The disagreement is if it's in Jimmy Leet pool it should also be in Joe Pink pool.

#2 If you want special gear and it can't be in the Joe Pink pool then it should be limited to a glow like effect.

#3 Higher rewards for more challenging content meaning that advanced mode has higher drop rate of the same items with inclusion of a 100% drop that's used for high ranking emp upgrades..

This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt you are purely in a green state and trying to be selfish. Seeing as you had to call on friends or alts to defend your side is just pathetic. Everyone who's been against the original poster has made enough arguments to confirm the negatives and the over all agenda behind the request. His attitude is bad his arguments aren't good and he's also unwilling to compromise just like you. Two peas in a pot.

So you are by definition arguing to make things not equal in a sense that only a minority can get them. I understand completely that you want stuff others can't get that make you feel special, you're only human. Please understand this selfish greed is a powerful hard to control human nature to overcome.

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Originally Posted by vienne

...

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Vienne, I'm sorry if you are a real person who might not have been influenced by an outside party. Given the complexity and circumstances apparent in this topic I just can't validate your arguments. The nature of your sudden appearance and views in relation to your linkshell leader etc. are very suspect.

Again, my apology if you wasn't goaded into this topic for nefarious reasons.

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Originally Posted by Shoko

Can say it's made up numbers all you want, but the general population of players have at least one or two friends and does stuff with them, at the very least.

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You could've just said minority instead of giving a fake number and I wouldn't have disagreed.

The facts are they made statements in previous post that said they want this content available to everyone. If It's not in Joe Pinks pool then it'll only be in Jimmy leets pool. This by design is constrictive and represents two separate minority groups.

Both Jimmy Leet and Joe Pink are minorities. You can't balance things to be fair for everyone if one side gets special statistically superior equipment that the other can't possibly get.

Jimmy leet (Minority)

Jack Normal (Majority) << This guy is the one that the game should be designed around.

Joe Pink (Minority)

I hope you see what I'm trying to imply here. If you don't get it I'll explain in a later post.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

I'm not an idiot, she just started posting recently, In your LS and same nation area. As for not dealing with criticism you speak from experience. I used to have some respect for you Arcon but after this topic you threw all that out the window.

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Her posting made you lose respect for me? Guess that makes sense for you.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Nothing that's being ask on this said of the field is going to topple your grand agenda. You sir can't compromise even the slightest this means you have an issue. Look at all my post I'm up to 88% compatible with your agenda that's not a low F'n number. That leaves a mere 12% we're disagreeing with.

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Stop with the useless numbers. And don't use the excuse that the other side is also using them, it wasn't me, so don't pull this one on me. I'm not compromising because no compromise is offered. And I assume that no comprise is offered because you still don't understand what I want. Every post again, over and over, you keep repeating some stuff that I never said or asked for and when I try to tell you why you completely ignore it and just repeat the same garbage again.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

#1 The disagreement is if it's in Jimmy Leet pool it should also be in Joe Pink pool.

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If he works for it, sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

#2 If you want special gear and it can't be in the Joe Pink pool then it should be limited to a glow like effect.

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It should be in everyone's pool. And I already said that I don't particularly mind that either, but that that's not a solution, because it does not address our problem. Trophy items are just for showing off, and I don't care for that (despite what you like to proclaim).

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Originally Posted by Sarick

#3 Higher rewards for more challenging content meaning that advanced mode has higher drop rate of the same items with inclusion of a 100% drop that's used for high ranking emp upgrades..

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I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. What do empyrean weapons have to do with this? Or are you saying that any challenging mob should also drop empyrean upgrade items? Seems a bit groundless, but whatever. I already explained that obtaining something faster is no reward at all. It does not introduce nor require skill.

As for the current system, since that was brought up earlier, no matter how skilled you are, you won't be able to kill Orthrus much faster than the next guy who just uses a weapon skill on a timer.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt you are purely in a green state and trying to be selfish. Seeing as you had to call on friends or alts to defend your side is just pathetic. Everyone who's been against the original poster has made enough arguments to confirm the negatives and the over all agenda behind the request. His attitude is bad his arguments aren't good and he's also unwilling to compromise just like you. Two peas in a pot.

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I never called on anyone to do anything, because I didn't need to. Everything I said was spot on and even until now you've done nothing at all to disprove my arguments against you or your agenda. What's pathetic is that you're resorting to calling me a fraud by attacking my credibility (with no evidence) instead of my arguments. That is an indication that you've run out of things to say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

So you are by definition arguing to make things not equal in a sense that only a minority can get them. I understand completely that you want stuff others can't get that make you feel special, you're only human. Please understand this selfish greed is a powerful hard to control human nature to overcome.

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You understand nothing. You have the comprehension capacity of a three year old. You don't even know how to argue properly. You throw around words that make you sound smart with no context and inappropriate usage just for the sake of sounding educated. Do you feel that that will carry more weight than sound arguments themselves? In this paragraph alone you have demonstrated that you have no idea what "by definition" means, what "equality" is and that you didn't grasp a thing of what I've been trying to convey. I specifically stated repeatedly that I do not want to exclude anyone and that everyone should be able to access and the content and get a chance to win it. I said that the content should not require best of gear but strategy and tactics instead. I said that it should scale with the number of members, so people can go with their friends if they can't find a full alliance or don't feel like they'll be able to join an endgame LS for this purpose. You addressed none of these things. You just spout groundless statements about how it is unjust and how I'm just being elitist and selfish, with no reasons, no explanation and no evidence. And it's getting really old.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

I'm not an idiot, she just started posting recently, In your LS and same nation area. As for not dealing with criticism you speak from experience. I used to have some respect for you Arcon but after this topic you threw all that out the window.

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This is the last thing I'm posting in this thread and please if any mod reads this, just lock it. We'll agree to disagree. some people want challenging content others want to turn this game into cuddlebearland where everyone gets the same lollypop.
But please you're being paranoid and you may apologise how much you want you're being very insulting towards me and towards arcon saying that he asks people to post for him. If it makes you feel any better we had a good laugh in the ls with your accusation of me being Arc's mule. I hope you'll remember me next time when I post in a thread and he does too and we have a different opinion.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Her posting made you lose respect for me? Guess that makes sense for you.

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No, I think you missed something as usual.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Stop with the useless numbers.

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Those numbers represent how close we are in agreement. This is something that I explained and they do represent something relevant to the topic. It shows how close our opinions are on the topic. Its a point by point match system that separates key elements of an argument. One reason someone wouldn't understand this would be because everything is seen in a binary perspective. A binary perspective means there is no percentage it's like a data bit on or off with no in between. That's what those numbers represented.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

If he works for it, sure.

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Again you miss the point and assume that Joe pink can compete on that level. I explained this already that everyone has a natural limit to skill. Under my setup where its available in all pools Joe Pink could WORK FOR IT. Under the setup where only advance players get it Joe Pink doesn't have a chance in hell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

It should be in everyone's pool. And I already said that I don't particularly mind that either, but that that's not a solution, because it does not address our problem. Trophy items are just for showing off, and I don't care for that (despite what you like to proclaim).

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Then why didn't you just say that "It should be in everyone's pool?" This single statement is the compromise. Show me where you said this exact sentence in an old post edited before today? I think I can read through my previous post where I pointed this out and you gave it the finger when you said "This is not enough." If you can find that then I'll apologize if not then hopefully you can see the fault isn't on my end.

As always I make an honest attempt to bring ideas to the table. I don't blindly disagree. I try and find solutions or compromises. When one side won't budge for reasons that seem dubious I only dig the trench deeper and prep the ammo.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. What do empyrean weapons have to do with this? Or are you saying that any challenging mob should also drop empyrean upgrade items? Seems a bit groundless, but whatever. I already explained that obtaining something faster is no reward at all. It does not introduce nor require skill.

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This is where you missed something, the increased challenge mode would offer this. Meaning the mob is tougher. I really don't see how you could misinterpret this Frank explained it why back when he introduced Joe Pink with the dynamis example.

If you're able to make $100,000 a year vs someone who can make $20,000 a year at a different job with vastly different skill sets, how is this not rewarding? The person making 20,000 is stuck at a lower standard of living because their limits. You on the other hand make five times more and can upgrade to a higher standard of living. Maybe you're a lawyer who enjoys his job and they're a school teacher who enjoys teaching young children. Both can be rewarding at their own level but one is at a higher income bracket.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

As for the current system, since that was brought up earlier, no matter how skilled you are, you won't be able to kill Orthrus much faster than the next guy who just uses a weapon skill on a timer.

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I never said anything about speed killing. Oh, you must mean that leet gear won't effect the kill speed. Irrelevant it's about both sides getting the items in their pools at a different rate from the tiered enemy. A solution was to give a useful upgrade items that dropped 100% for the added difficulty. Also speaking of speed killing, If the enemy is higher challenge it won't be as easy to take down so that unqualifies the last sentence in the above statement you made.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I never called on anyone to do anything, because I didn't need to. Everything I said was spot on and even until now you've done nothing at all to disprove my arguments against you or your agenda. What's pathetic is that you're resorting to calling me a fraud by attacking my credibility (with no evidence) instead of my arguments.

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No evidence? Does god exist? If you say yes or no and I say "Prove it" I doubt you'll convince me either direction if I want to disagree just to disagree. I think this is known as Occam's razor because it shifts the burden of proof. I'm sure you don't need to hit the link.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

You understand nothing. You have the comprehension capacity of a three year old. You don't even know how to argue properly. You throw around words that make you sound smart with no context and inappropriate usage just for the sake of sounding educated.

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What are you talking about? I don't use educated words. Comprehension? What, about arguing makes you think there is only one side with right or wrong ways? I'm sure if you walk out on the street and some guy wants to beat your head into the ground or something of that nature you'll say "wait I need to take off my glasses first." There isn't much difference when people are truly arguing about something. Stuff is said that can sound mean or intimidating.

I'm sure you're aware of that arguing has this effect because the above quote proves you're no saint. As for the words I use this is the way I talk normally it isn't like I'm looking for them in a dictionary this is what pops in my head. I never said I was smart so why would you bring that up? Let me assume it's just your imagination playing tricks on you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I specifically stated repeatedly that I do not want to exclude anyone and that everyone should be able to access and the content and get a chance to win it.

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Then why have you been arguing with me this whole time? Did you feel the need to defend yourself on something you agreed with? I wouldn't pose these types of questions or make assumptions if I didn't see reason for them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

You addressed none of these things. You just spout groundless statements about how it is unjust and how I'm just being elitist and selfish, with no reasons, no explanation and no evidence. And it's getting really old.

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You've put nothing on the table since we've started arguing. Nothing, to address the issues only to say that's not enough or I want more? What do you expect here obedience or straight up compliance? The only thing you've done is pushed the fact that you don't like the current system, suggestions or my way of saying how I feel about the them. I don't dismiss my methods of arguing but, I'm confident enough to admit their shortcomings. Seriously, you've offered nothing to help solve the issues you've been arguing about. The only motivation I've seen from you is constant retaliative retorts equal to my methods. So please save me from the innocent act as it's also getting really old.

In conclusion: Since we've come to an agreement that Joe Pink can get it in his reduced drop rate leet item in the easy pool. I don't see why you'd continue arguing with me at this point unless, you say something constrictive, irrelevant or contradictive to the agreement. Also, if you like arguing with me continue pushing my buttons. I love defending something I feel strongly about when it comes to balance.

You all fail because you play this antique...

Some people still find 1985 Mario on NES hard some find it easy to beat in 4min. i would never brag about beating any old tittle like you guys do, its quite funny lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rohelius

You all fail because you play this antique...

Some people still find 1985 Mario on NES hard some find it easy to beat in 4min. i would never brag about beating any old tittle like you guys do, its quite funny lol

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Slight difference, Mario doesn't get updated with new content on a monthly basis and have armys of people playing it together.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Again you miss the point and assume that Joe pink can compete on that level. I explained this already that everyone has a natural limit to skill. Under my setup where its available in all pools Joe Pink could WORK FOR IT. Under the setup where only advance players get it Joe Pink doesn't have a chance in hell.

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Again you miss the point that it is not about competition. That's already why you Olympic games comparison failed. Just because someone gets gold here does not mean that it precludes others from getting it as well. About the pool thing..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Then why didn't you just say that "It should be in everyone's pool?" This single statement is the compromise. Show me where you said this exact sentence in an old post edited before today? I think I can read through my previous post where I pointed this out and you gave it the finger when you said "This is not enough." If you can find that then I'll apologize if not then hopefully you can see the fault isn't on my end.

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You misunderstood what I meant, although I admit my wording was ambiguous. I forgot we were talking about the OP's idea and was talking about skill requirements in general. What I meant was that the elite pool should also be accessible to casual players, not that every reward should drop off every difficulty level. As in, every casual should be able to work up to that and be able to clear it with practice and patience.

What do you mean by natural skill limit? Are you saying some people are so bad that they can't improve to a point that they'd be useful to a group? If that's true I've yet to meet someone like that and I've met a lot of people. Unless, of course, you're talking about someone with a mental disability, but if you think the game should be designed around them I'm done arguing with you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

This is where you missed something, the increased challenge mode would offer this. Meaning the mob is tougher. I really don't see how you could misinterpret this Frank explained it why back when he introduced Joe Pink with the dynamis example.

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And even back then I said why that was a bad example. First of all, whether I get a relic in two or four months makes no difference to me. I'm not in a rush. I play this game casually, it's a pastime. Secondly, it does not even require any skills at all, because you can just make the money from other sources that require less skill and give more money (like FC parties, for example). I never farmed Dyna at all and I have a relic too, and I got it faster than most Dynamis farmers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

If you're able to make $100,000 a year vs someone who can make $20,000 a year at a different job with vastly different skill sets, how is this not rewarding?

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Because money is not what I'm looking for. It's compensation for my time and effort, not a reward. I don't look forward to do a job for the money, I do it begrudgingly waiting to get paid. That's the first reason why it doesn't compare to this situation.

The second is that it's not about "more" or "less" rewarding, but about the kind of reward. I never argued that it isn't "more" rewarding, but I told you specifically that that wasn't what I was looking for. It's about quality over quantity. Skill should be rewarded in an unique way, not just more of the same. Why doesn't every event just reward us moat carps, more or less depending on the difficulty. And we could rank items and make them redeemable with a certain number of carps. That's essentially what you're suggesting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

No evidence? Does god exist? If you say yes or no and I say "Prove it" I doubt you'll convince me either direction if I want to disagree just to disagree. I think this is known as Occam's razor because it shifts the burden of proof. I'm sure you don't need to hit the link.

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That's exactly why you shouldn't be making these kinds of accusations. Pointless throwing around claims that you can't back up at all.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Then why have you been arguing with me this whole time? Did you feel the need to defend yourself on something you agreed with? I wouldn't pose these types of questions or make assumptions if I didn't see reason for them.

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We don't agree, and I don't think you understood what I meant. You're suggesting:
Tier 1: 10% drop rate of desired item (noobs go here)
Tier 2: 50% drop rate of desired item (made for average people)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of desired item (made for the elitist scum)

What I'm suggesting is the following:
Tier 1: 100% drop rate of LQ item (requires attendance)
Tier 2: 100% drop rate of NQ item (requires patience and strategy)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of HQ item (requires preparation, coordination and effort)

The reason why you assume my idea is bad is because you think some people will never be able to complete tier 3. Why do you say that? Have you seen the T3 already, even though it's just in my head so far? How can you qualify that statement without knowing the actual difficulty?

I already told why one bad player is no reason this wouldn't work: because the group can even it out. I already said it should not require perfect gear. I also said it should not be unforgiving (like Legion currently is because of the time limit). No one mistake should kill the run. It should be something that's accessible and possible to beat even with average players if they play well. Sure, they wouldn't be able to clear it every time, but I see no issue with that (and neither do you, because that's precisely your argument).

When I say it should reward skill you jumped at the conclusion that it should be absolutely impossible to beat if you don't do everything perfectly, all the time. That was an assumption on your part. I told you what seems like a million times by now that I don't want to exclude anyone from getting a shot at the win. Only that it should require effort. It's ok to completely wipe the first ten attempts. Make smaller rewards along the way. Like Legion when clearing the first wave. That way a group can watch their own progress as they build their skills and gain practice in that event. That is how people learn to play better, and it's the only way.

A constant stream of mediocre content will not produce skilled players, no matter their potential.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

You've put nothing on the table since we've started arguing. Nothing, to address the issues only to say that's not enough or I want more? What do you expect here obedience or straight up compliance? The only thing you've done is pushed the fact that you don't like the current system, suggestions or my way of saying how I feel about the them.

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Wrong. Again. I told you many times before, in this very thread, that I do like the current system. I am happy with the way the game is right now. Unlike you, it would seem, because currently it's already the way I suggested it, only without the different difficulty levels. Instead there's content exclusively catered to high-level players. What I'm basically suggesting is to introduce lower difficulty Legion tiers which people could use to gain skill and experience in that particular event, because right now it's designed to exclude untrained/inexperienced players. And that's not because it's insanely difficult, but because it's expensive and unforgiving, which means people don't get the chance to just go in and get experience with it, they don't get to improve with practice at all. They either have a high-level group to tackle the content with already or they don't. That's what this suggestion would remedy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Again you miss the point that it is not about competition. That's already why you Olympic games comparison failed. Just because someone gets gold here does not mean that it precludes others from getting it as well. About the pool thing.

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You try really really hard to undermined any examples or alternatives no matter how clear or what they're based on if it doesn't suit your bias. Take off the glasses. I understand the comparison my friends do as well, it's just you and the opposition that can't grasp it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

You misunderstood what I meant, although I admit my wording was ambiguous. I forgot we were talking about the OP's idea and was talking about skill requirements in general. What I meant was that the elite pool should also be accessible to casual players, not that every reward should drop off every difficulty level. As in, every casual should be able to work up to that and be able to clear it with practice and patience.

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I didn't misunderstand anything here, you're trying to shift fault on me. Let's make this clear you're the one who wrote it not me. I assume when someone says "Everyone" It means everyone. Don't try and weasel your way out of a mistake that's clearly your fault or try and pin it on me again. You keep saying one thing then contradicting yourself in an effort to (I assume) confuse people.

Let me explain something. In Japan there is a saying about demons, their weaknesses and, how to defend yourself from them. It go's something like this "If you know the demons name you have power over it." For clarification I'm referring about the tactic not you directly. Maybe you assume I'm arguing wrong. I just recognize the what's going on and take advantage of it. :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

What do you mean by natural skill limit? Are you saying some people are so bad that they can't improve to a point that they'd be useful to a group? If that's true I've yet to meet someone like that and I've met a lot of people. Unless, of course, you're talking about someone with a mental disability, but if you think the game should be designed around them I'm done arguing with you.

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I'm saying limiting factors in a broad scope of things not just a high degree of mental disability that you painted a picture of. My guess is you over read my Olympics example to extremes. I did say something along the lines of "lesser extent" when I posted that. As for the scope, I made a mini list of multiple things that can limit Joe pink. Again, you missed something I wrote in a previous post. I don't like repeating this list because each point branchs out into sub factors that also need explained in detail. Please go recap.

Secondly, Did you see the post I made a few pages back that had Jimmy Leet as a minority, Jack Normal as a majority and Joe Pink as a minority. I thin placed an arrow toward Jack Normal and said something along with it. I'll let you recap since you missed/ignored that as well.

Another, thing I posted in a previous comment was related to the easy button, too weak, low quality mode being for wins, maybe atmas and percepts. I didn't misdirect this because it would still be available if Joe Pink had earned the win on the weakest setting for some item.

Do you remember the update before last SE added the ability to make some items that could be rebuilt later with the inclusion that the player had to have access to the content? Well, I assumed that everyone would get that access under the lower tier setup anyway if needed just getting the base wins. The reason for my reactions are because the multiple times people said that only casual or greater would have access.

Judging by your outlook you missed these fine details when I explained the balance way back. I don't condemn you for failing to recognize this because it's not something the average person would see above the surface when looking into deep water. I also didn't go into details here because I assumed you'd already known this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

And even back then I said why that was a bad example. First of all, whether I get a relic in two or four months makes no difference to me. I'm not in a rush. I play this game casually, it's a pastime. Secondly, it does not even require any skills at all, because you can just make the money from other sources that require less skill and give more money (like FC parties, for example). I never farmed Dyna at all and I have a relic too, and I got it faster than most Dynamis farmers.

Because money is not what I'm looking for. It's compensation for my time and effort, not a reward. I don't look forward to do a job for the money, I do it begrudgingly waiting to get paid. That's the first reason why it doesn't compare to this situation.

The second is that it's not about "more" or "less" rewarding, but about the kind of reward. I never argued that it isn't "more" rewarding, but I told you specifically that that wasn't what I was looking for. It's about quality over quantity. Skill should be rewarded in an unique way, not just more of the same. Why doesn't every event just reward us moat carps, more or less depending on the difficulty. And we could rank items and make them redeemable with a certain number of carps. That's essentially what you're suggesting.

---

It is not a bad example unless you have a skewed perception on what everyone wants. Again you missed something. I commented on this in the last post where the lawyer and teacher both at different levels can find things rewarding in different ways yet be on a different scale of income. You went directly after the money as the subject not the means to how rewarding it is or is not.

In that respect, you're unqualified to represent this outside your own personal interest. Since you can't be satisfied by it you deem it completely irrelevant as a solution and can't grasp differing levels of satisfaction/reward I doubt you can grasp balance. After all, this solution isn't just about you. It's very obvious this is another conflict of interest and it's skewed by personal bias on your part.

The purpose was to be a general encouragement that represents as many players as possible without adding the extra baggage of new special content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

That's exactly why you shouldn't be making these kinds of accusations. Pointless throwing around claims that you can't back up at all.

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This again, If I didn't have something that could be proven/or disproved I'll go with the most straight forward reasoning. Good or bad this has won wars saved lives etc. Granted this type of logic isn't perfect but in general everyone makes these choices every day and they don't even realize it.

I have examples like the one above when you contradict yourself then change views blaming it on my misinterpretation. That confirms at least one of these pointless accusations has some merit. The others are left totally at the discretion of the reader. Given the post pool it wouldn't be difficult to ascertain this. Does this upset you?, if you are innocent I'd assume the evidence would be in your favor when the readers determine this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

We don't agree, and I don't think you understood what I meant. You're suggesting:
Tier 1: 10% drop rate of desired item (noobs go here)
Tier 2: 50% drop rate of desired item (made for average people)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of desired item (made for the elitist scum)

What I'm suggesting is the following:
Tier 1: 100% drop rate of LQ item (requires attendance)
Tier 2: 100% drop rate of NQ item (requires patience and strategy)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of HQ item (requires preparation, coordination and effort)

The reason why you assume my idea is bad is because you think some people will never be able to complete tier 3. Why do you say that? Have you seen the T3 already, even though it's just in my head so far? How can you qualify that statement without knowing the actual difficulty?

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Oh here we go again, Now it's not everyone but only Jimmy Leet that has access to HQ. Can't you even get your own understanding it check before you post back to back contradictions? All this does is confuse confuse people. As I stated earlier in this post this can be used as a tactic. Not sure if it's intentional and give you the benefit of doubt on this portion.

How can I qualify? I can based this on my experience and the reviews I've seen from the community. It's common knowledge that SE is notorious for making content that is unsuitable for everyone. They try and find an in between hardcore and casual and sometimes fail hard. If you're trying to invalid my reasoning behind this you'll fall short in doing so. Everyone who has any experience with SE/FFXI knows this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I already told why one bad player is no reason this wouldn't work: because the group can even it out. I already said it should not require perfect gear. I also said it should not be unforgiving (like Legion currently is because of the time limit). No one mistake should kill the run. It should be something that's accessible and possible to beat even with average players if they play well. Sure, they wouldn't be able to clear it every time, but I see no issue with that (and neither do you, because that's precisely your argument).

When I say it should reward skill you jumped at the conclusion that it should be absolutely impossible to beat if you don't do everything perfectly, all the time. That was an assumption on your part. I told you what seems like a million times by now that I don't want to exclude anyone from getting a shot at the win. Only that it should require effort. It's ok to completely wipe the first ten attempts. Make smaller rewards along the way. Like Legion when clearing the first wave. That way a group can watch their own progress as they build their skills and gain practice in that event. That is how people learn to play better, and it's the only way.

A constant stream of mediocre content will not produce skilled players, no matter their potential.

---

You keep thinking this way, the evidence has shown that if content is increased players have been known to optimize setups or even outright cheat in order to win. It's also shown that if given the option a majority will choose the easiest route to do things this includes but is not limited to special setups, skill sets or previous relationships.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Wrong. Again. I told you many times before, in this very thread, that I do like the current system. I am happy with the way the game is right now. Unlike you, it would seem, because currently it's already the way I suggested it, only without the different difficulty levels. Instead there's content exclusively catered to high-level players. What I'm basically suggesting is to introduce lower difficulty Legion tiers which people could use to gain skill and experience in that particular event, because right now it's designed to exclude untrained/inexperienced players. And that's not because it's insanely difficult, but because it's expensive and unforgiving, which means people don't get the chance to just go in and get experience with it, they don't get to improve with practice at all. They either have a high-level group to tackle the content with already or they don't. That's what this suggestion would remedy.

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Yet you offer no solutions other then training wheel courses. I just had to laugh so hard my stomach contents found their way out. What I suggested was alternative routes. It's aways easy teach an old dog new tricks, wrong. Like I said countless times everyone has their own natural ability.

If you try and force something like this then it creates an environment where one or both sides will not be satisfied with. This could cause players to quit out of frustration or boredom. It's rather simple make things equal on a different scale. Just because you have all the time in the world and/or patience not everyone is build the same way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

You try really really hard to undermined any examples or alternatives no matter how clear or what they're based on if it doesn't suit your bias. Take off the glasses. I understand the comparison my friends do as well, it's just you and the opposition that can't grasp it.

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This is the response I've come to expect of you. Whenever I argue something, I present a reason. You don't. Just like now, you just state that it's my fault for not understanding, without any reason for why I might be wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

I didn't misunderstand anything, you're trying to shift fault on me. Let's make this clear you're the one who wrote it not me. I assume when someone says "Everyone" It means everyone. Don't try and weasel your way out of a mistake that's clearly your fault or try and pin it on me again. You keep saying one thing then contradicting yourself in an effort to (I assume) confuse people.

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Liar. I said apologetically that my wording was ambiguous, thus taking the blame off you. I never faulted you for this. I have no trouble faulting you for the many mistakes you're making in your leaps of logic and groundless accusations. In general you're not very intelligent and stubborn, arrogant, dishonest, and show a few other characteristics that indicate you're a bad human being, but I never once tried to put this on you, not then, not now. I know when I'm at fault, and that was mine, as I said in the previous post already.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

I'm saying limiting factors in a broad scope of things not just a high degree of mental disability that you painted a picture of. My guess is you over read my Olympics example to extremes. I did say something along the lines of "lesser extent" when I posted that. As for the scope, I made a mini list of multiple things that can limit Joe pink.

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Don't have to recap, just link me to it, because I don't remember any of it. All you said was stuff like "no gear", "no friends" and other general statements like those, every single one of which I responded to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Secondly, Did you see the post I made a few pages back that had Jimmy Leet as a minority, Jack Normal as a majority and Joe Pink as a minority. I thin placed an arrow toward Jack Normal and said something along with it. I'll let you recap since you missed/ignored that as well.

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No, I neither missed nor ignored it, I basically said that very same thing in my last post (yes, the very same that you quoted, and you quoted that same part as well).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Do you remember the update before last SE added the ability to make some items that could be rebuilt later with the inclusion that the player had to have access to the content? Well, I assumed that everyone would get that access under the lower tier setup anyway just getting the base wins. The reason for my reaction because commented multiple times that only casual or greater would have access.

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I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. This may also be my fault, because I'm tired of having to read everything into your vague and inarticulate posts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Oh here we go again, Now it's not everyone but only Jimmy Leet that has access to HQ. Can't you even get your own understanding it check before you post back to back contradictions? All this does is confuse confuse people. As I stated earlier in this post this can be used as a tactic. Not sure if it's intentional and give you the benefit of doubt on this portion.

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You're confused. Let me help you: in everyone's pool does not equate that it should drop for each difficulty. Even if it only drops in the highest difficulty pool, if everyone gets a chance at doing that it can still be in everyone's pool. Feel smarter?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

You keep thinking this way, the evidence has shown that if content is increased players have been known to optimize setups or even outright cheat in order to win. It's also shown that if given the option a majority will choose the easiest route to do things this includes but is not limited to special setups, skill sets or previous relationships.

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Duh? Not sure what your point is. That's why I said I want harder content, so it cannot be cleared by just idling along for a given duration and then collecting your price. Or do you condone that behavior? Or are you saying that because SE have demonstrated incompetence in that regard in the past they should just stop trying?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Yet you offer no solutions other then training wheel courses. I just had to laugh so hard my stomach contents found their way out. What I suggested was alternative routes. YOU think you can teach an old dog new tricks. Like I said countless times everyone has their own natural ability.

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What's wrong with the training wheel course? What you suggested was to dumb everything down so that people don't even have to try to get good gear. Because that's all I'm asking.

I understand everything, just read it all most of it I don't feel like responding to. I did Think of a few things.

You mentioned evidence again.

Let's recap.

Baseless accusations.

I wouldn't feel the need to say these things without some merit. The readers who've read most of the topic can ascertain their own opinions based around the content in it. If you feel threatened about this then you can plea the filth otherwise don't set yourself up for it.

Doesn't know the content

You must not be up to date or don't read about updates. If you win a VW and a leet item drops that you already have you can accept it as a partial item that can be sold and later re-assembled. Anyone can get this item without fighting the enemy 100's of times if they have the clears. They can just choose to buy the parts.

Hardcore content.

Harder content that people can't win, I think I already explained SE's shortcomings here when creating difficulty tiers. Only a minority would have access the others would hate the content and choose to avoid it. I can't stress this enough if you read up on what the community says you'll see this is standard knowledge.

So I'm Liar?

You said this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

It should be in everyone's pool. And I already said that I don't particularly mind that either, but that that's not a solution, because it does not address our problem. Trophy items are just for showing off, and I don't care for that (despite what you like to proclaim).

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Then followed up with this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

You misunderstood what I meant, although I admit my wording was ambiguous. I forgot we were talking about the OP's idea and was talking about skill requirements in general. What I meant was that the elite pool should also be accessible to casual players, not that every reward should drop off every difficulty level. As in, every casual should be able to work up to that and be able to clear it with practice and patience.

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Finially ending with this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

We don't agree, and I don't think you understood what I meant. You're suggesting:
Tier 1: 10% drop rate of desired item (noobs go here)
Tier 2: 50% drop rate of desired item (made for average people)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of desired item (made for the elitist scum)

What I'm suggesting is the following:
Tier 1: 100% drop rate of LQ item (requires attendance)
Tier 2: 100% drop rate of NQ item (requires patience and strategy)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of HQ item (requires preparation, coordination and effort)

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No, you said it was ambiguous then followed up with something completely opposite of the definition for "everyone." The word everyone isn't an ambiguous term. It's not left up to interpretation. You see where the first quote says everyone. The second part excuses everything that you said then the last part puts the HQ item in only one tier?

It's right there in front of you are con!

The person who doesn't know the subject history.

Sorry, If you want to argue with me about opinions, relevance or past post you need to know the subject matter/material. Even if I lack grammar skills (I've openly admitted this so no foul here). If you can't keep up with the topic then find someone who can for you like Vinnie.

On a final note I still don't see anything other then a training wheel approach. You think this will teach people to be better? I don't see this doing any good if you give out items of lower tier so Jimmy leet can lord over others. I also recognize that you still want Jimmy Leet items to be given to the hardcore only group without compromise.

This is a major turn off for your argument. I thought you said everyone and was about to call it quits then you came back on and posted something opposite. Luckly I checked back.

this page is like a tale of two cities. could you guys duke it out somewhere where someone will care?

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Originally Posted by Plasticleg

this page is like a tale of two cities. could you guys duke it out somewhere where someone will care?

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Kudos for pointing this out. Hits like button.:o

Oh, and your name made me laugh when I read it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Doesn't know the content

You must not be up to date or don't read about updates. If you win a VW and a leet item drops that you already have you can accept it as a partial item that can be sold and later re-assembled. Anyone can get this item without fighting the enemy 100's of times if they have the clears. They can just choose to buy the parts.

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I'm very well aware of this, only your poor choice of words did not make it apparent that that's what you meant. No idea how it relates to anything at all, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Hardcore content.

Harder content that people can't win, I think I already explained SE's shortcomings here when creating difficulty tiers. Only a minority would have access the others would hate the content and choose to avoid it. I can't stress this enough if you read up on what the community says you'll see this is standard knowledge.

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I know it very well, I don't need to read anything. I even said that myself in this very thread. I do play the game, just so you know. If SE already made it perfectly, there would be no reason to suggest it. That's why these forums are here for. And as I said before, if they failed at it before, should they just give up on it and dumb everything down until no one fails that content anymore?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

So I'm Liar?

No, you said it was ambiguous then followed up with something completely opposite of the definition for "everyone." The word everyone isn't an ambiguous term. It's not left up to interpretation.

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See my explanation above. You are a liar.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plasticleg

this page is like a tale of two cities. could you guys duke it out somewhere where someone will care?

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While it's gotten a bit personal at times, I never felt like it was off-topic. Did you? Why should we go somewhere else?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I'm very well aware of this, only your poor choice of words did not make it apparent that that's what you meant. No idea how it relates to anything at all, though.


See my explanation above. You are a liar.

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You need to edit, I updated my previous post to give evidence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

No, you said it was ambiguous then followed up with something completely opposite of the definition for "everyone." The word everyone isn't an ambiguous term. It's not left up to interpretation. You see where the first quote says everyone. The second part excuses everything that you said then the last part puts the HQ item in only one tier?

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I already explained all of that here:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

[..] in everyone's pool does not equate that it should drop for each difficulty. Even if it only drops in the highest difficulty pool, if everyone gets a chance at doing that it can still be in everyone's pool.

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Again, just for you:
Elite pool = HQ pool
Elite pool accessible to everyone = everyone gets the chance to play for the HQ pool

And that was my exact wording. Everyone should be able to play the hard content. Hard does not mean exclusive. But it should be challenging. That's why people who aren't that skilled with endgame content can practice on lower difficulties. Once they have that down, they can move up and tackle the challenging content. Note that challenging also doesn't imply unfair. In the end, everyone should be able to access and win the challenging content. Hence everyone gets a shot at the reward.

That is not the opposite of everyone. It's everyone. Stop lying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I already explained all of that here:


Again, just for you:
Elite pool = HQ pool
Elite pool accessible to everyone = everyone gets the chance to play for the HQ pool

And that was my exact wording. Everyone should be able to play the hard content. Hard does not mean exclusive. But it should be challenging. That's why people who aren't that skilled with endgame content can practice on lower difficulties. Once they have that down, they can move up and tackle the challenging content. Note that challenging also doesn't imply unfair. In the end, everyone should be able to access and win the challenging content. Hence everyone gets a shot at the reward.

That is not the opposite of everyone. It's everyone. Stop lying.

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What are you smoking.

Person A Is a hard core player

Person B Is A Normal Casual player

Person C Is A below average player.

Your first quote sums up as:

You think everyone should get a chance at the items in their pools, and you don't like the idea of people prancing around in Trophy gear. It doesn't solve things.

Person A, Person B and Person C would get it.

Your second quote sums up to:

Oh, crap I made a mistake, I didn't want all items available to everyone Just the hardcore and casuals. My fault for not explaining that everyone just means skill level.

Person A and Person B would get it. Person C is unworthy and needs to train harder.

Your third quote sums up to:

Here's your idea here's mine. I Don't like yours and disagree. You created two tables depicting your setup. In this same quote you say you've been suggesting this all along. It list all three tiers with separate contents one for each tier. What a minute this isn't the same thing as the first and second quotes.

It shows Only Person A getting the HQ item. Everyone else gets sloppy seconds.

Conclusion: Anyone who reads this would see the difference in opinion changing over time. It's not baseless you've been flip flopping the entire topic saying one thing and meaning another or changing it once you gain a little ground. I've argued with you before on the storage system.

If you didn't care about the gear anyway you wouldn't be arguing, back pedaling or trying to invalidate the very words you created. Most people have stopped reading this. Not only have you forgotten previous post but lack the understanding of features that where already added. Don't get me wrong you did say something along the lines of it was your fault for not knowing. It still doesn't excuse or the things I've pointed out. Trying to discredit me even when I link to stuff just increases my credibility. Those are your unedited quotes in the previous post not mine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Your second quote sums up to:

Oh, crap I made a mistake, I didn't want all items available to everyone Just the hardcore and casuals. My fault for not explaining that everyone just means skill level.

Person A and Person B would get it. Person C is unworthy and needs to train harder.

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Liar. That's not what my second post says, that's not what I ever said. I explained it twice now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

What I meant was that the elite pool should also be accessible to casual players, not that every reward should drop off every difficulty level. As in, every casual should be able to work up to that and be able to clear it with practice and patience.

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I say explicitely that the elite pool should be accessible to everyone. Anyone who reads this as me wanting to exclude people from certain items is braindamaged.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Liar. That's not what my second post says, that's not what I ever said. I explained it twice now.

I say explicitely that the elite pool should be accessible to everyone. Anyone who reads this as me wanting to exclude people from certain items is braindamaged.

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I left you same breathing room when I made the last post. a lot was lost in the rewrite (Token expired). I think most of what I wrote was retained.

Unfortunately, based on your guidelines you've further clarified the same elitist only garbage. You said you didn't want. You implied that you want content available for everyone, This sounds good on paper until you posted the flip-flop arguments above.

This further unqualified you from creating an unbiased solution while confirming my ~baseless accusations~. You've definitely hit a home run here Arcon compromising your position. You've literally implied only elites deserve special content. How?, Using this as a base you want to force Joe Pink into the same tier content.

Let's go back to the Olympics comment I made a few post back. Under your terms EVERYONE can attempt to get to the Olympics but only a select few will make it. This only confirms you're after making hardcore content to suit your agenda. It's an elitist agenda meant to include only the upper echelon of the player base.

This flat excludes lower tier content by nature despite it's availability. After all as I stated previously Joe Pink doesn't have a chance in hell. The proposed table you wrote up includes content tiers to gives the impression everyone is included. The reality is nothing you've listed gives Joe pink a fighting chance for the items in higher tier content. My solution does and is balanced more across the board.

You invalidate your argument by subverting all tiers. They don't have equal access to the same equipment. This confirms my accusation of flip-flopping, personal bias and an elitist agenda. You can sit at whatever device your posting on and say "I want tiered content available to everyone" but in reality only a minority can might beat the higher tier content for special items. This is a jaded attitude that doesn't apply all factors behind the nature of tiered content. Again I stress this, Joe Pink doesn't have a chance in hell.

I think the point Arcon is trying to make (and has made pretty clearly to me) is that "Joe Pink" (and I'm already sick of that term) can clear the low tier content for the low tier gear so he will no longer be "Joe Pink". Using that gear and the skills obtained through clearing the low tier he will then be better able to succeed at the higher tier content and have a chance at the better rewards it offers.

Sarick at this point you seem to be ignoring the meat of what Arcon is saying and taking small points out of context and ignoring the overall system he is proposing.

Arcon please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in my assesment of what you are proposing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slaxx

Arcon please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in my assesment of what you are proposing.

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No, you're quite correct, and I feel most people got it as well. I did post it about fifteen times so far, so not really surprising. Some disagree, and that's ok too. But he's just posting to have the last word now.

I'll let him have it, this argument has lost all of its amusement for me. He's trying so hard to discredit me that he makes leaps of judgment and states one groundless assumption after another.

One final thing to think about, Sarick, is how insulting you are to everyone who's not able to participate in hardcore content right now. You're basically telling them that if they're not hardcore players they'll never improve and always remain insignificant lowly players who will have to settle for whatever scraps they're able to pick up. That alone shows enough of your attitude as well as your faith in the community.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slaxx

[..] "Joe Pink" (and I'm already sick of that term) [..]

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It's worth to stop arguing any further with just to not have to read that again.

To me, your both right on certain things. Not every Joe/Jane pink will stay that way, we were all "noobs" at one point, so if some can raise to the top then so can the rest of us. But not everyone aspires to reach the top, some are content to just do whatever or the easiest content and then leave the game. And others don't mind sitting in the middle, neither being above par or below it. And then of course you have the few that want to dominate this game. I know people who I've personally offered to get +1 for and they refused, saying Aurore/Perle/Teal did just fine.

But I've also seen people go from being Aurore/Perle/Teal and build up to the best gear and multiple empys and relics. We all play this game for different reasons and have different opinions and wants.

Bottom line is; looking at the first post having seven likes and the third having fifty-six. Right now, you few are in the minority and I don't think it's honestly worth SE's time to incoporate something that only a small percentage would take advantage of and the rest wouldn't bother. Most people are still busy working on clearing Nyzul Uncharted, Legion and all of the new revamped content and preparing for the new content that's coming, I suggest "hardcores" work on all the current content and wait to see New Salvage and Seekers also before asking for this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slaxx

I think the point Arcon is trying to make (and has made pretty clearly to me) is that "Joe Pink" (and I'm already sick of that term) can clear the low tier content for the low tier gear so he will no longer be "Joe Pink". Using that gear and the skills obtained through clearing the low tier he will then be better able to succeed at the higher tier content and have a chance at the better rewards it offers.

Sarick at this point you seem to be ignoring the meat of what Arcon is saying and taking small points out of context and ignoring the overall system he is proposing.

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NO, He wants the same thing the OP wants and Is trying to validate higher tier content with the assumption that everyone has a chance. I made it clear about personal limitations. You can't place content in the game and expect everyone to rank up into superhuman skill. Consider all the objections from the community when content is overdone. You forget the past where players got sick in game fighting a BOSS that only SE knew secrets to beating. This is the HARDCORE content level people need to be made aware of.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Komori

Bottom line is; looking at the first post having seven likes and the third having fifty-six.

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I believe that many of them are just afraid that the result will be another Neo-Nyzul. Neo-Nyzul fits the description of what's suggested if you look at it superficially, as it has different rewards based on different floors you can clear. But I'd tell you this, if the event itself wasn't quite this luck-dependant and had a few annoying time wasters removed it would be a lot more popular and you'd see many people trying to clear it.

It would be a matter of adjusting it to a fair level, but if that was done correctly, I say it would be very popular among the playerbase. Imagine a Neo-Nyzul where you'd get a piece guaranteed depending on the floor you cleared even if you overshoot (like getting a guaranteed F80 piece if you get to F85). Now imagine that same Nyzul with some luck factors removed (for example no lamp floors and constant 7 floor jumps). I'd bet you a relic that people would do the shit out of it. And even if they didn't make it to the top, they'd still get rewarded depending on their performance. Despite that, they still wouldn't lose motivation to try if they saw that F100 was within their reach. This, in turn, would give them many chances to practice the content. They'd get better at communication, identifying the right mobs, positioning and pathing, even the random fights within the event. I know this for a fact because the same was true with regular Nyzul at 75, and I've been in enough parties to notice. You could definitely identify a Nyzul newbie and tell him apart from the guy who was 0/40 on Askar Gambieras.

It's just a matter of adjusting the event so it actually is doable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

One final thing to think about, Sarick, is how insulting you are to everyone who's not able to participate in hardcore content right now. You're basically telling them that if they're not hardcore players they'll never improve and always remain insignificant lowly players who will have to settle for whatever scraps they're able to pick up. That alone shows enough of your attitude as well as your faith in the community.

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I'm not insulting those players, I'm trying to set a bar where it possible to complete at lower tier with the same rewards at different drop rates. If they can't reach the skill set levels they have a lower tier they can compete on without needing resorting to frustrate themselves or deal with elitist for the same gear.

No one has fun by saying "I give up F this game!" If, they can learn this fine and dandy but for the love of all that holy don't say shit that this shit or scales to all players at the highest level without realizing the highest levels will always be another minority.

It's clear you want more challenging content and there are multiple reasons both spoken and unspoken behind this. The thing that pushes buttons is the tiers seem to be setup as method to create gear that one can prance around in and say look at me I beat leet boss.

You stated that you don't care about this and wouldn't mind it being in the other pools. Even if that's not what you want it still doesn't excuse that this system of yours is harsh for people who can't confirm to the standards of Jimmy leet.

I attack your credibility because, you're insulting people by implying they don't deserve access to some items or gear even if they can earn it through multiple paths. This isn't good for anyone and separates the community into haves and have nots. The community where players MUST meet the hardcore level of skill or give up.

I if remember currently I read that you're happy with the games current state, people with the capacity to get things done easily are often happy with the status quo. It then comes down to wanting higher rewards for bigger challenges. Everyone can agree to this at some level unless, it tries to create an illusion that one person is worth more than another. This is what your system does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

I attack your credibility because, you're insulting people by implying they don't deserve access to some items or gear even if they can earn it through multiple paths. This isn't good for anyone and separates the community into haves and have nots. The community where players MUST meet the hardcore level of skill or give up.

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Liar. I wasn't implying that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarick

I if remember currently I read that you're happy with the games current state, people with the capacity to get things done easily are often happy with the status quo. It then comes down to wanting higher rewards for bigger challenges. Everyone can agree to this at some level unless, it tries to create an illusion that one person is worth more than another. This is what your system does.

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You're mixing things up. I said that I am happy, for myself with the current game. I can already achieve these things and am doing so. But I don't think this is what it should be like. That's why I support difficulty tiers.

Currently: only one difficulty, hard.
Suggestion: add more and easier difficulties.

Here's the thing you don't get (well, one of them): I already have gear that sets me apart from other players. If that was what I wanted, why would I suggest this at all? If I wanted the system to remain that way, I wouldn't care for threads like these. I'd just sit back and relax while SE dishes out more content that I can clear but others can't. You accusing me of wanting to stand out is completely paradoxical, because I already do. I can live with the status quo, because it favors me. But that's not what I think it should be like. This suggestion would make events more accessible and help people get better at content that they currently cannot clear, or even attempt.

You probably won't believe me anyway, but I'll still say it: the main reason why I want these things added is because I could actually go back to my social LS for events like Legion and Neo-Einherjar. Currently we don't stand a chance there because we only have a few people interested in it and nowhere near enough to efficiently tackle these events. And here's another thing: many people who would help are discouraged from trying because of the difficulty. But with a system that offers several difficulty settings we could be able to get a feel for the event, coordinate our efforts to get more people motivated. And we'd be able to get gear that helps us with the final challenge along the way.