Cure V

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To people that says that rdm dont need cure V... stop a few and think before say something please..

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Right there you start the conversation off on a bad note. This takes away from your entire argument, implying that those who oppose Cure V haven't thought about it for a long... long time.

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Rdm was meant to be good at healing and at nuking, but not the better on anything, that's okay.
Nuke wise we are ok, but healing wise we should be better than blms, smns, schs, pups,

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We should not be better than Scholars at healing, in fact I'd argue we should be worse, as we we have a different toolset.

We are better than puppet-masters due to the AI problems they have, but I'm guessing you haven't been in the company of them long.

Summoners are debatable, given that they have support and healing function with their avatars. I'd actually like to argue that Summoner should be better at their healing role than where they are, and at bare minimum comparable in that role.

You left out Dancer and Blue Mage.

Again, this isn't an argument against making RDM and SCH better healers. It's about a 10 second cooldown spell with easily over 1k+ heal results with the hate of Cure III. There's no balancing in that spell and to give RDM and SCH the ability to spam it (which with their MP endurance they could easily do.) WOULD seriously upset the balance on several fronts.

1. Giving RDM Cure V would destroy the case argument for better buffs and debuffs. "Why do you need better de/buffs? You have Cure V. Just heal the damage."

2. It detracts from every other healer and healing magic by making their capacity to heal a determent to them, as it had to be balanced against their capacity to do damage. And as all it would take is 1 Cure V spammer to cover the entire party that utility becomes unneeded, unwanted, and ultimately unused. That is bad game design. Better to give RDM an ability to globally improve healing as a whole. (Or make it a self-buff if people are worried.)

Red Mage isn't lacking in cure Potency anymore. Most mage jobs can now cap it. Unless they regard healing on a more global level to make it useful beyond a certain key jobs, giving RDM and/or SCH Cure V will actually cause more harm than it's worth. It's a copout to larger problems the game is suffering right now.

And among those, I'd say the HoT (Healing over Time) aspects are suffering much worse than spike healing, as Regens really didn't scale well with HP gains.

The largest of these problems with Cure V is that Red Mage needs a better buff/debuff game before they need better heals, and SE needs to carefully balance that. Right now I cannot see Red Mage being both potent at reducing damage and posses Cure V to restore it. Even if you say it will be balanced among outside sources, which I disagree with wholeheartedly, that still dosen't change the fact that Cure V undermine Red Mage's core functions, as listed in the Manifesto.

I'll be willing to change that opinion if SE makes a real attempt to balance our Enfeebles better and fails. But I will not undermine the effort to make Red Mage's core purpose more potent and stand on it's own right by requesting a spell that will do just that in one fell swoop.

Why the heck should we be worse at healing than a job who learns cures after us...? It's okay for them to be better nukers and crowd control but both jobs can't be better healers then Brd and Blm, I'm sorry what?

My Taru Rdm is 10 points shy of 1.2k HP, 2 Cure 4s don't cut it on myself. On a race with the lowest HP pool. You're crazy if you think it cuts it for anything worth a damn.

Dude shut up. WHM can heal just as long as either RDM or SCH while subbing /RDM or /SCH, they have access to the exact same MP endurance tool set as either job, as well as their own unique MP savings set with AFv3+2 pants.

As for the wonderful gem about our enfeebles. Our enfeebles are great, the issue is that SE has made everything either immune, or redundant to cast on (see TP moves being used as regular attacks).

You just don't want C5 because you are too afraid you might be shoved into exclusively being pink mage again. You are worried you won't be able to pull out your little sword and swing away. Christ dude stop playing the limitation card on one of the most useful roles a RDM can full fill. DD are a dime a dozen, healers are not. You do the math.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

You just don't want C5 because you are too afraid you might be shoved into exclusively being pink mage again.

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You can't blame him, most people who play RDM on at least a regular basis back in those days vehemently despised that role we were pidgonholed into. And while I agree to a point with Hyrist, the pro-cure V people are right in their arguments too. WHM does have access to most of the mp reduction tools they didn't have available back then and a plethora of new abilities that tbh would be overkill in most non-abyssean situations, but here's where Hyrist's point starts to stand out because most non-abyssean content does not need absurd amounts of healing, and with access to Accession via /SCH, it would let us handle most situations allowing RDM to possibly debunk WHM for all but the most difficult content like back then.

And yes I know, both sides have made their arguments, but the fact is SE is still trotting around the fear of jobs stealing other's roles (hypocritical I know), making RDM overpowered in too many aspects, and that they're trying desperately to prevent the era of Avesta 2.0 from occurring.

And that was then. This is now. Welcome to the future, you can park your versatility at the door and get in line with everyone else waiting for SE's 'adjustments' to be handed out.

If your non abyssea situations is old content then yes, Cure V is overkill. For stuff a Blu can solo.

98% of the game IS old content, and besides what point has this game changed in retrospect from now and back then, differences now is most everyone got buffed, some more levels, and some got a sj boost. Concept is still the same, go in and zerg everything the game has to offer it doesn't matter how good the job is as long as it's good enough to do what we need it for.

The game needs to be stepped up enough imo to where zerg tactics can't be abused and things pose a considerable challenge, before we get something like Cure V which could unintendedly hurt our job growth in the long run. Or at the very least WAIT until they fix a majority of the other RDM issues as a whole before giving us Cure V.

I'd really hate to see good ideas for RDM go overlooked because they said "Well they could really use this but they got Cure V now that might make them too powerful" speech.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

We should not be better than Scholars at healing, in fact I'd argue we should be worse, as we we have a different toolset.

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Yes we should.

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It's about a 10 second cooldown spell with easily over 1k+ heal results with the hate of Cure III. There's no balancing in that spell and to give RDM and SCH the ability to spam it (which with their MP endurance they could easily do.) WOULD seriously upset the balance on several fronts.

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My White Mage has plenty of refresh, I abuse the hell out of Cure V and VI.

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1. Giving RDM Cure V would destroy the case argument for better buffs and debuffs. "Why do you need better de/buffs? You have Cure V. Just heal the damage."

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No it wouldn't. Curing is not the only thing that Red Mage is supposed to be good at.

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2. It detracts from every other healer and healing magic by making their capacity to heal a determent to them, as it had to be balanced against their capacity to do damage. And as all it would take is 1 Cure V spammer to cover the entire party that utility becomes unneeded, unwanted, and ultimately unused. That is bad game design. Better to give RDM an ability to globally improve healing as a whole. (Or make it a self-buff if people are worried.)

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White Mage would still be needed for anything that does AOE damage or massive debuffs. White Mage is already not really necessary for anything that does not. Nothing changes.

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And among those, I'd say the HoT (Healing over Time) aspects are suffering much worse than spike healing, as Regens really didn't scale well with HP gains.

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Healing over time sucks because when you are fighting something that requires large amounts of healing, you need to get players topped off as fast as possible. If you have time for HP to regenerate on a per tic basis, you probably don't really need much healing to begin with.

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The largest of these problems with Cure V is that Red Mage needs a better buff/debuff game before they need better heals, and SE needs to carefully balance that. Right now I cannot see Red Mage being both potent at reducing damage and posses Cure V to restore it. Even if you say it will be balanced among outside sources, which I disagree with wholeheartedly, that still dosen't change the fact that Cure V undermine Red Mage's core functions, as listed in the Manifesto.

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If Cure v would conflict with "Red Mage's core functions" than so would Cure IV, III, II, etc., this is simply not true.

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I'll be willing to change that opinion if SE makes a real attempt to balance our Enfeebles better and fails. But I will not undermine the effort to make Red Mage's core purpose more potent and stand on it's own right by requesting a spell that will do just that in one fell swoop.

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This guy nailed it.

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You just don't want C5 because you are too afraid you might be shoved into exclusively being pink mage again. You are worried you won't be able to pull out your little sword and swing away.

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Skipping the obvious flame baiting, and keeping myself from repeating myself too many times...

I don't see how hard it is to accept getting spells that would remove the need for cure V over simply getting Cure V. If we're better at preventing damage, you don't need as strong of a healer, and if for some reason you do get RDM and WHM together, there is less overlap going on. Doing this would be more healthy for the job, and job dynamic than simply giving RDM Cure V. Role redundancy has often been a problem with RDM, and stepping away from the higher tier cures and focusing more on damage prevention would do a great deal to solve this problem.

Topped off with Kinimatic's suggestion to up the current cures we have. (Something I believe we could receive in buff form.)And some of the good debuff ideas presented, I've yet to hear an actual clear argument against this alternative.

In fact, the only arguments coming out are at me personally (and are often Red Herrings like the one RCD tried to make.)

So here's the question:Why not debuffs? Why does it have to be specifically, Cure V?

Because the only argument I've heard so far for Cure V that wouldn't be addressed by added cure capacity over time, and damage prevention is that Cure IV is available via subjob, which I can understand. (But what prevents SE from just raising Cure IV on RDM to 50? I doubt that'll be harmful to the low level dynamic considering how people level nowadays.) My alternative to that would be a buff to enhance our cures. Perhaps it can be a RDM specific buff that conflicts with temper.

You're free to disagree with whatever concerns I have with Cure V, but with the spell in contention (Not just by members of the player-base but obviously by the developers as well considering they've held out this long) and a clear alternative route that would be better overall, why not take it?

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Or at the very least WAIT until they fix a majority of the other RDM issues as a whole before giving us Cure V.

I'd really hate to see good ideas for RDM go overlooked because they said "Well they could really use this but they got Cure V now that might make them too powerful" speech.

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This is the core point, for those who can't read what I'm writing on virtue that 'it's Hyrist saying it'.

There was so much hassle when Temper came out on how it was a waste of development time/etc. But do we really have a unified idea as to what we're to do with Red Mage? A number of you just seem to want to convert the job into just a healer. Is this your desire or vision for the class or are you just trying to find a solution to the frustration of not being able to top off player's hit points?

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

If we're better at preventing damage, you don't need as strong of a healer

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Because having Stun always let Black Mages be awesome healers, right?

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

So here's the question:Why not debuffs? Why does it have to be specifically, Cure V?

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Why not both? Someone other than White Mage getting Cure V isn't going to dethrone them no matter how badly you want to convince yourself and others.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Why not both? Someone other than White Mage getting Cure V isn't going to dethrone them no matter how badly you want to convince yourself and others.

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All I'm seeing here is "lol just trust me guys srsly". Sounds more like you're trying your hardest to fool yourself into believing RDM won't be the only healer again.

If RDM got Cure 5 sometime between 75 and 80 I would have had no reason to level WHM. Sure Cureskin is nice but you can live without it. That's the entire bulk of the problem. For all the pros WHM has for raw curing you can live without it.

It's really disappointing to think that some of you people only want Cure 5 because "You're not useful anymore", like it's a panacea for your problems. Even more so that you trick yourself into believing anybody that wants to pursue a different route is a dirty RDMelee commie.

First part is flame-baiting, Cid. Stun saves lives, saves MP, etc... we should have more than just stun, etc,etc. You know better.

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Why not both? Someone other than White Mage getting Cure V isn't going to dethrone them no matter how badly you want to convince yourself and others.

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The biggest issue, And what I believe SE's holding out on us for? It's simply too much. Too much for RDM to be a highly competent healer and be able to severely hamper the monster as well.

My personal fear, just talking about RDM in a vaccume, is that reacing Cure V for RDM will kill the progress that desperately needs to be made for Enfeebeling and Enhancing game, which is quite capable of handeling the problem on its own. For the job, I want to have those enfeebles not be immune, and to be able to greatly reduce their target's effectiveness. I desire that ability far more than being given paltry status reductions and then being given Cure V to make up for it.

But if we're going to go with both, just for the sake of outreach here, lets focus on the debuffs first and foremost. Being competent in healing should come secondary to being competent in the role that's supposed to be our specialty.

Well all I'm seeing is a bunch of people trying their hardest to ignore just how incredibly powerful White Mage really is.

I'm not ignoring it so much as more worried for RDM. Unless you're proposing a nerf to whm?

WHM being incredibly powerful in the healing game just puts a much brighter light on how other jobs really aren't doing so well, like RDM in general. And I'm not all that opposed to WHM being an increidbly powerful healer, so long as other aspects of jobs that are not healing specalists get to be powerful in their own fields, like RDM's enfeebeling. SCH's magical versatility, etc.

The general concept is to raise the other classes up to be just as potent as WHM, but in their own departments.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

First part is flame-baiting, Cid. Stun saves lives, saves MP, etc... we should have more than just stun, etc,etc. You know better.

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My point stands. Your argument is that an increase in damage mitigation will eliminate the need for additional healing. Black Mage with a sensible sub gains access to more damage mitigation options than we do, yet it was never enough to offset the healing deficiency.

They're holding out on us because we're going to kick so much ass at enfeebling? I guess I'm more skilled at pattern recognition than you.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

But if we're going to go with both, just for the sake of outreach here, lets focus on the debuffs first and foremost. Being competent in healing should come secondary to being competent in the role that's supposed to be our specialty.

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I agree with this statement, but I strongly disagree with your approach to it. (bludgeon ourselves in the face repeatedly so we can beg for nice things).

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I'm not ignoring it so much as more worried for RDM. Unless you're proposing a nerf to whm?

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White Mage could use a nerf, but I think the entire FFXI community would lynch me if I tried to suggest that. Besides, I like having them around.

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My point stands. Your argument is that an increase in damage mitigation will eliminate the need for additional healing. Black Mage with a sensible sub gains access to more damage mitigation options than we do, yet it was never enough to offset the healing deficiency.

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... Are we forgetting about Chainspell Stun? Because I'm fairly sure that offers quite a deal of damage mitigation, as it allows for zerg tactics whenever mobs are not outright immune to stun. Granted, niche situation is niche, but between intelligent spot stuns and Chainspell stuns, you could get some pretty good damage prevention on from it. It's just not enough, and that's really the point I think we're both making - is that right now, our enfeebles don't cut it.

The reason why Stun isn't offsetting our healing deficiency is two things. One, stun is not by any means a new mechanic (and it doesn't prevent TP moves from just happening immediately after stun.), and really, we need new debuffs beyond just rehashing old ones. Some more potent means of regarding TP attacks, (especially the annoying unnamed ones.) And two, stun doesn't kill TP moves, it just stops them temporarily. We'd need som

You'd like to see that supplemented with stronger cures, cure V being the representation of that. I'd rather us get as potentially overpowered as WHM is with cures, with enfeebles, then SE throw us for a loop with an endgame that is actually hard, and requires both.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

White Mage could use a nerf, but I think the entire FFXI community would lynch me if I tried to suggest that. Besides, I like having them around.

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It may happen, I imagine the only reason SE isn't addressing the apparent major balancing issues at this moment is due to the final level cap coming up. I mean why "fix it" now if it'll just get broken again in a few more months right?

Yes, once every 2 hours. Oh wait, that's as viable as Sch's.

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Originally Posted by Swords

98% of the game IS old content

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You missed 2 whole updates didn't you?

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Yes, once every 2 hours. Oh wait, that's as viable as Sch's.

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Granted, niche situation is niche,

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inb4u :p

I like how we say the same things, but instead of looking at what we have objectively, it gets pulled out of my statements as if they weren't even there, and rehashed in a negative light, like it somehow just disproved what I said.

As far as WHM nerfs, I'm not sure what they're going to do there. Honestly I'm sure everyone would like the solution to all their problems to happen ASAP first priority ,etc etc. But in reality, I don't think we'll be seeing any semblance of balance to come through the pipelines until after the 99 cap and after the merit overhaul.

And I don't believe we'll likely get Cure V until after that point, as they'd rather not give us a spell then wind up nerfing or taking it away (you could say again, but we technically never REALLY had it.)

No, we're not saying the same thing because you believe Cure V will 'destroy' Whm - as if not already being the most versatile mage for healing and support means they're suddenly going to drop down to useless because 2 other jobs can cast 1 of their Curing spells with less benefits to help the party - sorry no it won't. SE's healing over time is Regen spells and from the looks of it, they just gave a regen boost to.... Sch.

Oh, look, another Red Herring.

Saying the same things about Chainspell Stun =/= saying the same things about our views of Cure V. Don't try to correlate the two. I wasn't, and you're jumping points to try to make it seem that I was.

As far as Regen Boost to Scholar, I'll have to see just how powerful those boosts are to see if they are going to offset the lack of Cure V for them.

Issue with "Cure V won't break WHM". Even if I agree with that point, there's still several beneath it, like cure V breaking RDM which is my primary concern. I don't want some cop-out for our job 'being more useful' instead of getting more enfeebles that actually matter.

Neisan I was the one parading the thought of the ToAU parties happening again, but in any case I'd like to ask a simple plausible question.

IF RDM had cure V, the player was a competit healer, was MORE than capable of handling the situation on RDM, but also had WHM leveled which is better in every way to support the group even though it would be utter overkill. Would you ask the player to switch to WHM?

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Oh, look, another Red Herring.

Saying the same things about Chainspell Stun =/= saying the same things about our views of Cure V. Don't try to correlate the two. I wasn't, and you're jumping points to try to make it seem that I was.

As far as Regen Boost to Scholar, I'll have to see just how powerful those boosts are to see if they are going to offset the lack of Cure V for them.

Issue with "Cure V won't break WHM". Even if I agree with that point, there's still several beneath it, like cure V breaking RDM which is my primary concern. I don't want some cop-out for our job 'being more useful' instead of getting more enfeebles that actually matter.

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How the hell is learning higher tiers in magic without being the best in that field of magic a cop-out?

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Originally Posted by Swords

Neisan I was the one parading the thought of the ToAU parties happening again, but in any case I'd like to ask a simple plausible question.

IF RDM had cure V, the player was a competit healer, was MORE than capable of handling the situation on RDM, but also had WHM leveled which is better in every way to support the group even though it would be utter overkill. Would you ask the player to switch to WHM?

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Why is options a bad thing? I'd tell them come on the job they're most comfortable on. That isn't the case right now. For not soloable content it isn't 'You can come support on Rdm or Sch or Whm' with Whm being the clear choice for harder fights, it's 'Oh you have Rdm/Sch leveled? That's nice, come Whm unless you feel like dicking around'.

People who have White Mage and Red Mage leveled get asked to play White Mage.

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How the hell is learning higher tiers in magic without being the best in that field of magic a cop-out?

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You need to actually read what I've been writing, as you're asking questions I've answered many, many times.

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My personal fear, just talking about RDM in a vaccume, is that reacing Cure V for RDM will kill the progress that desperately needs to be made for Enfeebeling and Enhancing game, which is quite capable of handeling the problem on its own. For the job, I want to have those enfeebles not be immune, and to be able to greatly reduce their target's effectiveness. I desire that ability far more than being given paltry status reductions and then being given Cure V to make up for it.

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1. Giving RDM Cure V would destroy the case argument for better buffs and debuffs. "Why do you need better de/buffs? You have Cure V. Just heal the damage."

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2. It distracts from more job defining aspects both SCH and RDM should be their respective specialists in.

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Please try to keep up with the conversation. It's not as if I'm being inconsistent here.

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Originally Posted by Swords

Neisan I was the one parading the thought of the ToAU parties happening again, but in any case I'd like to ask a simple plausible question.

IF RDM had cure V, the player was a competit healer, was MORE than capable of handling the situation on RDM, but also had WHM leveled which is better in every way to support the group even though it would be utter overkill. Would you ask the player to switch to WHM?

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Actually, that's a good argument for Neisan and Cid's case. Right now? WHM, because RDM's core mechanics are in such a bad state. But I cannot for the life of me shake off the feeling that if the idea of RDM 'MUST HAVE CURE V NOWZ' isn't killed, we're never going to see RDM being made into an actually powerful enfeebler where it matters. It'll forever be good against monsters that don't matter, and there for Refresh II/Haste bot for any event beyond it. And Cure V will just be another 'Lookie here! I have this too, pweese invite mee!' gimick, just like Stun is.

RDM needs to be brought into its own. Its enfeebles need to make a signifi- no critical impact upon the monster for it to be anything but a joke job in HNM game. That requires work on the ones we have, and additional ones to cover the areas we currently don't. Cure V doesn't do this, and it can prevent it from happening, as the developers could easily be too frightened to give RDM both.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Why is options a bad thing? I'd tell them come on the job they're most comfortable on. That isn't the case right now. For not soloable content it isn't 'You can come support on Rdm or Sch or Whm' with Whm being the clear choice for harder fights, it's 'Oh you have Rdm/Sch leveled? That's nice, come Whm unless you feel like dicking around'.

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Options are never a bad thing, but say lets do a slight role reversal RDM is the king of single cures now if there was anything that needed RAW curing power RDM was the go to job even though it's cure power is overkill, but WHM still has all of it's other advantages high regens, ga's, cureskin, auspice, etc. Would you still ask the RDM to swap to WHM? (remembering na's/ga's are subbable via /SCH)

Yes, so they can come /thf or /blm and still have -nas and -gas.

Having a field of magic you specialize in does not mean you can't have other fields of magic you can perform sufficiently in. This is not the situation we have right now.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

In fact, the only arguments coming out are at me personally

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No, they aren't. I'm sure you are a great guy, and very good at FFXI. I still think your wrong about Cure V though.

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So here's the question:Why not debuffs? Why does it have to be specifically, Cure V?

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As I mentioned in the post above this one, Cure V does nothing to hinder our Enfeebling role.

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Because the only argument I've heard so far for Cure V that wouldn't be addressed by added cure capacity over time, and damage prevention is that Cure IV is available via subjob, which I can understand.

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also just above this post I said:

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Healing over time sucks because when you are fighting something that requires large amounts of healing, you need to get players topped off as fast as possible. If you have time for HP to regenerate on a per tic basis, you probably don't really need much healing to begin with.

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You're free to disagree with whatever concerns I have with Cure V, but with the spell in contention (Not just by members of the player-base but obviously by the developers as well considering they've held out this long) and a clear alternative route that would be better overall, why not take it?

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Because your method is convoluted. Adding Red Mage to a spell is easy. Making new spells that replace the need to heal from spike damage is a lot harder and far more likely to overpower the job in general, not just piss off white Mages.

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There was so much hassle when Temper came out on how it was a waste of development time/etc. But do we really have a unified idea as to what we're to do with Red Mage? A number of you just seem to want to convert the job into just a healer. Is this your desire or vision for the class or are you just trying to find a solution to the frustration of not being able to top off player's hit points?

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Nobody wants to make healing our main function. Cure V wouldn't do that.

Last time DRK got a stun was 37.

Since those arguing for Cure V are doing a poor job of it, I thought I'd play devil's advocate and weigh in with a counter to Hyrist.

Comparitive healing performance.

One point that must be addressed is the apparent full maintainability of the MP cost of these cures compared to whm's potential. Whm can spam Cure V all day and barely notice. Rdm and sch have better MP recovery options than whm, so they 'should' be able to perform at the same level, at least with respect to this one spell.

First, we must consider MP expenditure rate. For these purposes, we will assume that the mage is casting nothing but Cure V.


Amount cured per spell:

Note: Found an error in the wiki. The scale values given for Cure V after the soft cap are half what they should be; between soft cap and hard cap, scale should be 2 instead of 1; after hard cap, scale should be 17/3 instead of 17/6. This somewhat impacts the comparitive scale I used in my earlier posts, and I may need to revisit them.

Assumed Cure Potency of 50% for each; gear for rdm and sch only guesstimated.

Whm:
- Assumed capped healing magic of 396 + 25 gear
- 87 mnd (estimate) +54 gear
- 80 vit (estimate)
- Power: 755
- Cured: 1086

Rdm:
- Light Arts healing magic of 376
- 83 mnd (estimate) +54 gear?
- 77 vit (estimate)
- Power: 752
- Cured: 1084

Sch:
- Light Arts healing magic of 376
- 81 mnd (estimate) +49 gear?
- 77 vit (estimate)
- Power: 731
- Guaranteed light weather: +10%
- Cured: 1181




Cost per spell:
Whm:
- 135 base
- Assumed /sch for Light Arts: -13
- Conserve MP: -8.5
- AF3+2 pants: -54
- Total: 59.5

Rdm:
- 135 base
- Assumed /sch for Light Arts: -13
- Conserve MP: -8.5
- Total: 113.5

Sch:
- 135 base
- Assumed Light Arts: -13
- Conserve MP: -8.5
- Total: 113.5


MP Recovery rates:
Whm:
- /sch Sublimation ~~3 MP/tick equivalent
- Refresh gear of 5/tick (excluding Moonshade Earring and refresh hairpin as being on the greater rarity side)
- Total: 8/tick

Rdm:
- Refresh II - 7 MP/tick
- Refresh gear of 5/tick
- Total: 12/tick

Sch:
- Sublimation ~~ 7 MP/tick equivalent (8 at 95? need to check)
- Refresh gear of 4/tick
- Total: 11/tick


Time required to recover MP spent:
Whm:
- 59.5 / 8 = 7.4 ticks

Rdm:
- 113.5 / 12 = 9.5 ticks

Sch:
- 113.5 / 11 = 10.3 ticks


Recast for Cure V with a bit of haste is about 2.5 ticks.

Net MP cost if recasting every 4 ticks:

Whm:
- 3.4 * 8 = 27.2 MP

Rdm:
- 5.5 * 12 = 66 MP

Sch:
- 6.3 * 11 = 69.3 MP


Time it would take to run out of MP:

Whm:
- ~1000 MP / 27.2 = 37.8 4-tick blocks = 441 seconds (7 min, 21 seconds)

Rdm:
- ~1800 MP / 66 = 27.3 4-tick blocks = 327 seconds (5 min, 27 seconds)

Sch (assumed /rdm):
- ~1800 MP / 69.3 = 26.0 4-tick blocks = 312 seconds (5 min, 12 seconds)

Though sch can extend that a bit with more strategems than the others have available, and shouldn't need to cast quite as often due to higher cure potential.


If the rdm is subbing /whm for curagas or /blm for stun, its values would be revised to:

Cost per spell:
Rdm/whm:
- 135 base
- Total: 135
Rdm/blm:
- 135 base
- Conserve MP: -9.5
- Total: 125.5

Time required to recover MP spent:
Rdm/whm:
- 135 / 12 = 11.25 ticks
Rdm/blm:
- 125.5 / 12 = 10.5 ticks


Net MP cost if recasting every 4 ticks:
Rdm/whm:
- 7.25 * 12 = 87 MP
Rdm/whm:
- 6.5 * 12 = 78 MP

Time it would take to run out of MP:
Rdm/whm:
- ~1800 MP / 87 = 20.7 4-tick blocks = 248 seconds (4 min, 8 seconds)
Rdm/blm:
- ~1800 MP / 78 = 23.1 4-tick blocks = 277 seconds (4 min, 37 seconds)



Overall, you're looking at 4-5 minutes of near-constant Cure V spam before rdm or sch would exhaust themselves and whm's longevity would give it the lead.

At what point would Convert equalize the picture? In the above where you're exhausting yourself in about 5 minutes, that means each MP pool only lasted about 2.5 minutes, and you burned out your reserve long before it could be replenished.

Let's say fully merited rdm Convert. You need one MP pool to last 8 min 20 sec so that you can Convert back to a full pool. So, taking half the MP used (900) and making it last 500 seconds means a net loss of no more than 1.8 MP/second, or 5.4 MP/tick. Given 12 MP/tick refresh, that means you can use 17.4 MP per tick.

Number of ticks a Cure V would need to be spread across to make it cost 17.4 MP per tick:
rdm/sch: 6.5
rdm/whm: 7.8
rdm/blm: 7.2

So something like 20-23 seconds between Cure V casts in order to last a Convert cycle.

For sch, it has to last 600 seconds, meaning 1.5 MP/second or 4.5 MP/tick. With 11/tick refresh, that's 15.5 MP/tick usable. Shortest interval for Cure V in order to last a Convert cycle: 22 seconds.

Rate at which a whm could use Cure V without exhausting themselves: one Cure V every 22 seconds.

So for perpetual longevity when treated in isolation, all three jobs have about the same restriction on casting rates, in the 20-22 second region, though rdm/sch seems to have a bit of an edge.

Suppose you add a brd to the mix, and get Ballad II & III with +2 Ballad from AF3 and instrument, totalling 9 MP/tick. How does that affect each of the above?

Whm: 10.5 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP
Rdm/sch: 13 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP
Rdm/whm: 15.3 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP
Rdm/blm: 14.3 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP
Sch: 13.9 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP

And now whm is back to having a significant edge over the others in the rate at which it can spam spells, being able to cast about 25%-30% more often. Because of whm's lower spell costs and lower starting refresh, additional refresh is significantly more useful for them.


Other features that whm brings to the table that the others do not: Cure VI (a huge waste of MP, but can be useful in emergencies), Curagas (situationally useful), cureskin (useful in some circumstances, but doesn't work with curagas), better barspells, and situationally useful -na advantages (Esuna and Sacrifice).

Rdm brings the potential for Stun if subbing /blm, and both rdm and sch have the option of switching over to nuking.

Basically, pretty much all of whm's advantages would be 'situational', though those situations are likely to be prominant in any difficult fights (AOE damage, magical damage, fights lasting long enough that rationing Convert matters (more than 15 minutes), rapid curebombing with Cure V + Cure VI). At the same time, rdm's nuking potential drops considerably for those same fights. Sch can do reasonably well nuking, but has to choose between the two styles and generally stick with just one at a time.


One could then argue that there is a reasonable balance among the three jobs most commonly regarded as 'healers' if you allowed all three to have Cure V. In difficult fights whm still has a clear edge, and in less difficult fights all three can perform adequately while rdm and sch have the option to bring their other advantages to the fore.


The primary downside is that whm is now suffering a (perceived) deficit in overall capability due to its lack on the damage front compared to rdm and sch. That deficit can be turned around and shown to be an advantage for rdm, which means that any further grants to rdm (either in the melee or enfeebling departments) are likely to be pulled back or severely curtailed, lest players begin the "nerf rdm" chant.

At the same time, while greater curing power may mean more incentive to force players into that role, it also means less time actually spent curing since you can get done with one spell what used to take two. Less time curing means more time that can be used on other actions, and so increases its usefulness as a whole.

Should probably include the twilight cape bonus for SCH if you're going to count permanent light weather.

Eh, that's a pretty minor bonus. Goes from 4% cure potency from the new cape to 5% bonus applied after potency. So either 1.5 * 1.1 or 1.46 * 1.15, which is 1.65 to 1.679, or a 1.75% increase. Worthwhile, certainly, but has minimal impact on the numbers I was focusing on, which is more about the rate at which casting is maintainable.

And in which world are you always curing exactly for the max HP amount? This is where paper math fails in reference to WHM +2 pants. You won't be getting back full amounts each and every cast, and most definitely not outside abyssea.

Tank has 1500~1600 HP assuming full merits and good tanking gear (Haste / Acc / Attack + PDT + shield). At 1K per cure V you'd have to wait for the tank to get into 500 ~ 600 HP before casting it. Otherwise your wasting part of the MP regeneration bonus on +2 pants.

Also this is assuming 50% potency too much, less then one fifth of the WHM's I've met have capped cure potency. Most don't even that the magian staff. Your also assuming everyone has +2 pants, head and body, that's not true.

Then we get into the /SCH assumptions. It is not equal to 3mp/tick unless your fighting a brick wall with infinite HP. You will take damage, this damage will interfere with the charge time and often you'll be too busy to even remember hitting that macro again.

So even with all those assumptions, WHM barely pass's RDM in MP longevity. It shouldn't barely pass it, it should completely destroy it.

And finally, the argument isn't whether RDM will or won't be better then WHM with Cure V, we all assumed that RDM should be vastly inferior. Your argument actually supports the "no Cure V" group as it shows that RDM isn't far behind WHM in actual cure power. Add that to RDM and you get main healing + buffing + debuffing + nuking + crowd control. None of those are the best, but their all "just good enough" to make due. You won't be putting a RDM into a tank alliance for main healing, you'll be sticking them with 4~5 DD's in the "DD party" and having them spam Cure V over and over again until they die of boredom. Cure V would lock RDM to two subs, /WHM and /SCH. This is because DD's will demand things like paralyna, silena, erase and cursna along with the usually "Haste me B****" demands.

SE finally has a chance to give RDM unique roles and abilities after years of being forced to be a mediocre healer. Giving RDM "Cure V" would erase that chance and we're back to EXACTLY where we were in 2005/2006. Instead of "Cure IV, Haste, Refresh" it's would be "Cure V, Haste, Refresh II". I refuse to play as a job that is remembered only for three spells.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saevel

Also this is assuming 50% potency too much, less then one fifth of the WHM's I've met have capped cure potency. Most don't even that the magian staff. Your also assuming everyone has +2 pants, head and body, that's not true.

---

Stop using gimps as your measuring bar. All 4 items are easy to get. I see plenty of Whms Brds Blms Rdms etc. with the +2 magian staff on my server and even people's mules have finished the staff so no it is not difficult.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saevel

Then we get into the /SCH assumptions. It is not equal to 3mp/tick unless your fighting a brick wall with infinite HP. You will take damage, this damage will interfere with the charge time and often you'll be too busy to even remember hitting that macro again.

---

This has nothing to do with /sch's mp efficiency.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saevel

So even with all those assumptions, WHM barely pass's RDM in MP longevity for single target curing. It shouldn't barely pass it, it should completely destroy it.

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I'm not sure why you're okay with Rdm with native Refresh II + Emp+2 pants bonus and merited Convert not only still losing to Whm in MP longevity, but you want Whm to be even better than it already is?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saevel

And finally, the argument isn't whether RDM will or won't be better then WHM with Cure V, we all assumed that RDM should be vastly inferior. Your argument actually supports the "no Cure V" group as it shows that RDM isn't far behind WHM in actual cure power for single target cures]. Add that to RDM and you get main healing + buffing + debuffing + nuking + crowd control. None of those are the best, but their all "just good enough" to make due.

---

Bolded the part you left out.

Since you somehow haven't noticed, Whm is better at number 1 and 2, passable at 3, worse at 4, worse at 5 if /sch and passable /Rdm. So I will say your 'just good enough' statement applies to them as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saevel

You won't be putting a RDM into a tank alliance for main healing, you'll be sticking them with 4~5 DD's in the "DD party" and having them spam Cure V over and over again until they die of boredom. Cure V would lock RDM to two subs, /WHM and /SCH. This is because DD's will demand things like paralyna, silena, erase and cursna along with the usually "Haste me B****" demands.

---

/Sch is already our best mage sub, /Blm (or for special people like you, /drk) will still be used for Stun, /Nin will still be used for shadows/meleeing. /Whm is for Stona/easy access barspells that's it. It actually says a lot that your DDs are making such foul demands at you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saevel

SE finally has a chance to give RDM unique roles and abilities after years of being forced to be a mediocre healer. Giving RDM "Cure V" would erase that chance and we're back to EXACTLY where we were in 2005/2006. Instead of "Cure IV, Haste, Refresh" it's would be "Cure V, Haste, Refresh II". I refuse to play as a job that is remembered only for three spells.

---

And this goes to show you're stuck in a mentality for a situation that no longer exists.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

And this goes to show you're stuck in a mentality for a situation that no longer exists.

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For now. For now.

And one that won't regardless of learning it or not. If you didn't need C5 you didn't need much curing power in the first place - Whm is superfluous.

You need C5 - You're fighting something strong enough to warrant extra healing power - Whm is a clear lead for such fights in single target and Aoe curing and buffing and damage mitigation.

Quote:

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And in which world are you always curing exactly for the max HP amount? This is where paper math fails in reference to WHM +2 pants. You won't be getting back full amounts each and every cast, and most definitely not outside abyssea.

---

Valid point. I was conflating the cureskin effect (which gives full potency regardless of how much you actually cured for) with the whm af3+2 pants. As such this can be considered the upper limit of whm's longevity.

Quote:

---

Also this is assuming 50% potency too much, less then one fifth of the WHM's I've met have capped cure potency. Most don't even that the magian staff. Your also assuming everyone has +2 pants, head and body, that's not true.

---

It doesn't matter what gear set I choose, someone will argue that it's not a valid set to work with. As such I just chose the easiest to justify: the standard top-end gear.

Quote:

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Then we get into the /SCH assumptions. It is not equal to 3mp/tick unless your fighting a brick wall with infinite HP. You will take damage, this damage will interfere with the charge time and often you'll be too busy to even remember hitting that macro again.

---

I find that losing sublimation to damage taken is a rare event, and as such won't try to figure its effects into the model. The model itself is obviously simplified for the basic reason that I'm trying to find the limits of certain values. If you wish to argue against it, you need to present math showing what variances cause the model to diverge significantly, and what degree of variance is necessary to cause that deviation.

For example, at what amount cured (due to the AF3 pants) does whm's perpetual-MP casting rate drop to match sch or rdm's when factoring in a brd?

For simplicity, I'll look at 13 seconds for rdm and 14 seconds for sch, compared to the base 10.5 for whm.

13 s = 4.33 ticks
14 s = 4.66 ticks

whm refresh rate w/brd: 17/tick

Amount of MP recovered in 4.33 and 4.66 ticks at 17/tick: 73.6 and 79.2 MP.

Base cost of Cure 5 without AF3 pants: 113.5

Pants savings required: 39.9 and 34.3

Amount cured to get those savings: 798 and 686

So if the whm is curing for 700-800 HP per cure, they'll be able to maintain perpetual MP while casting at the same rate as rdm or sch.

Further, given that they're curing that quickly and the target is still taking damage, it follows that cureskin is being fully utilized. 800 HP cures with AF3+2 body give a 280 point stoneskin, which means that the whm would be covering for pretty much the same amount of damage per cast (1080) as the rdm (~1085).



Also, while given brief mention in the original post, a closer look at sch's strategem use is probably in order.

Given that strategems for sch main refresh at one every 45 seconds, and given the rough range of perpetual recast rates with brd (10-15 seconds), we could reasonably suppose one use of Penury every 4th cast. With Conserve MP, that works out to an average cost of 62.3 MP instead of 113.5 MP. Four casts would thus cost 113.5*3 + 62.3 = 402.8 MP, or an average of 100.7 MP per cast.

At 11 MP/tick refresh, that's 9.2 ticks to recover the MP (without brd), and a net loss of 57.2 MP per cast (12 second recast rate). Longevity would be 6 minutes 17 seconds before running out of MP. That would put sch well above rdm, but still below the ideal whm value.

Add in brd and the rate at which it can cast and maintain its MP within a Convert cycle is one Cure V every 12.3 seconds.


Whm would then need to cure for 900 per Cure V to maintain a rate on par with sch (one per 12 seconds).


And since, given your tone, you do not quite understand the purpose of my post, I'll reiterate: I personally do not think it would be appropriate to give rdm Cure V (I'm more inclined to allow it for sch), but I'm trying to make a good faith effort to argue in its favor so as to get a better idea of the actual comparisons involved.

Currently my conclusion is this: Adding Cure V to rdm would not drastically overshadow whm, and give rdm a decently useful position as a secondary healer on difficult fights, and allow it to be a main healer on easier fights, theoretically increasing player's options for who they bring as a healer (actual playerbase trends are of course more difficult to guess).

However it would also mean that rdm would forever be stuck in its current fairly mediocre state with respect to any melee or enfeebling enhancements that might otherwise be considered. I, personally, would greatly prefer expansion of its enfeebling specialties instead of a bland "slap a band-aid on it" approach. Whether the dev team has the creativity and the skill to pull that off, though, I can't say.

Why this thread has reached 200 posts boggles my mind. RDM without cure V by now is pure insanity and a load of hogwash. This ain't even remotely in the same league as Utsusemi San, for example. Why the hell is this even a debate? Are people just trolling each other? WHM will destroy RDM even if it had cure VI so I don't know why RDM doesn't have cure V yet. If it and SCH reach 99 without that spell it will be one of the greatest injustices I've ever seen in this games history.

WHM has a solid #1 lead for healer. RDM having access to cure V is never going to make the slightest difference to that lead. What it will do for RDM is make it once more a viable #2 healer to spot heal for the WHM. That is why you give RDM cure V and this thread should end now. But it won't, because people don't want to think about jobs working together as a team to fit the roles they are designed for, they just want their job to be better than the other period so they are ensured invites on the job they want.

Yep, this is FFXI, alright.

@Motenten

I apologize if my tone was off, I've been dealing this these people for too long I think.

I was bringing up those points to illustrate that even at its best, WHM is barely ahead of RDM for longevity, otherwise known as brute cure power. Giving RDM Cure V would put it close enough to WHM that it would be determined "good enough" for main healing duties. What many of the pro camp here doesn't realize, or they do and are being dishonest, is that giving RDM Cure V would put it back into the exact same position as it was in 2005/2006. Forever locked into three spells (Haste Cure Refresh). That is a very very bad thing. RDM's don't want to be stuck main healing four to five melee's, its stressful and ultimately its a suck position to be forced into. Of course you have many people coming in that have absolutely zero intentions of playing the job and instead want to use other RDM's to heal them rather then having to find a WHM. Or worse, they play RDM but only as a method to acquire gear for their PUP, BST, DRG, SMN, COR or what have you. They don't care about the job nor actually enjoying the job, but just it's viability / desirability as a loot whore.