Job Vision: Watch paint dry

I see no reason why summoners couldn't get a charge system like cor and sch for pet abilities. That way they're balanced in that they can't just spam all of the pets abilities, but you still have the freedom to use multiple attacks as you please. they're should probably be a short recast on individual blood pact abilities, but nothing that keeps you too limited.

Charges only work for things you use occasionally. Like QD charges is good because you might need to do 2 sleeps at once. At other times you might be able to just let the charges refresh. On SMN though, it would mean you do 2 predator claws in 1 minute, but then wait 2 minutes until you do next, to get the charge back. In other words, it is only useful if you put SMNs in a zerg alliance and kill something in 30 seconds. If the fight lasts longer, like 2 minutes, charge system isn't very helpful.

However, for wards it could be a little help. You could throw up 2 defensive pacts at once, instead of waiting a 1 min cooldown between them. Wards last a while, rages are instant and then the effect is gone.

Personally I wouldn't mind a 3 timer system though.

Low level rage pacts, could have 3 charges. This is for applying debuffs, or making a weak level 1-2 skillchain to lower elemental resistance.

Ward pacts, again 3 charges. So you can add multiple buffs in a short time.

High level pacts, 70+. As today. No charges, because it would never make a difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

You want a true comparison between WAR and SMN (melee)?

How about no gear, no support, no buffs, and no spells each?

Since you think that a WAR without its best weapon available is "fair," why not strip SMN of the same weapons?

---

I actually just want an INTERESTING comparison. But I'm quite flexible on this test. You can skip the avatar if you want to.

What you'd get with this test, is an example of how much melee traits and difference in armors make between the jobs. The idea to include the avatar were to see if having 0 traits but 1 avatar balanced it all out. I.e. a quick test to see if DA + attack bonus + better haste gear = 1 avatar pet.

And the reason G.Axe isn't part of any of these tests, is because I'm already pretty sure using the best weapon for WAR puts it as a better melee than SMN... else why would anyone play WAR over SMN? (Discuss this with Dallas though. He likes the discussions about WARs being half as good as SMNs)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malamasala

I actually just want an INTERESTING comparison. But I'm quite flexible on this test. You can skip the avatar if you want to.

What you'd get with this test, is an example of how much melee traits and difference in armors make between the jobs. The idea to include the avatar were to see if having 0 traits but 1 avatar balanced it all out. I.e. a quick test to see if DA + attack bonus + better haste gear = 1 avatar pet.

And the reason G.Axe isn't part of any of these tests, is because I'm already pretty sure using the best weapon for WAR puts it as a better melee than SMN... else why would anyone play WAR over SMN? (Discuss this with Dallas though. He likes the discussions about WARs being half as good as SMNs)

---

Ask yourself this: What is the purpose of this test?

And let us know what you come up with.

I see what you think this test will do, but in all honesty, what is the purpose of this test? Is it to determine how SMN can stack up to WAR given a solo situation? Party situation? Really, what is the purpose of the test, you think?

SMN gets its best weapon
WAR gets its 7th best weapon

Comparisons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Except a DNC isn't required to cap haste =.=a. (I think!)

With Dual Wield being considered in the absolute Delay Reduction, Jobs like NIN, THF, and DNC (ones described) in reality only need about... I can't remember the exact number, But 25% gear haste/+Spell+ Double March should cover that to cap their Delay Reduction, no DNC Required. (This isn't even including Blitzers roll!)

I know Capped Haste from gear is 25% (26% is the Shown Number, You only get 25% in reality its just 26% is required in shown numbers because how its caculated... blah blah), 43% in magical.

That in itself is 68%, I think Dual Wield would cap the rest. This is of course excluding 2handed DD, minus DRK, who can cap JA haste with Desperate Blows.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I think DW would only cap it on NIN? I'm really confused as to how DW works in conjunction to haste, considering NIN's base trait is 35% (IIRC) and that with Gear Haste would be 60% already, making Haste get it to 75%. AF1 body is 5% DW, which would cap it.

However any NIN that's played with a BRD knows that March breaks your swing animations @_@

---

68% haste requires 37.5% DW (Edit: because they are multiplicative [you have to * them not + them])

69.3% (rounded) haste is required to cap at 35% DW (naked NIN)
71.5% (rounded) haste is required to cap at 30% DW (naked DNC)
73.333333333% haste is required to cap at 25% DW (naked /NIN)

The closer you get to cap, the less DW is affecting you. Magic cap + fully merited samba means there's no point in equipping any DW gear because you're already capped. regardless of 25% DW or 50% DW (not sure how much a NIN or DNC can actually achieve), however, drop the haste samba and a NIN only needs 2.5% DW to cap haste. DNC needs 7.5% and /NIN needs 12.5%.

The maths is in the Spoiler so as to not clutter the page up:

Decide on which you want to decide: DW or Haste (the one you don't already have a set value for)

In this instance I'll start with a known DW figure and show you how to work out how much haste you need to cap.

as /NIN you have 25% DW naked so we'll go with this.
% are shown as a decimal, so 25% = 0.25

x=your DW figure
a=the amount of haste you need
you can use exactly the same maths to work it out the other way round with x = your known haste if you want to work out DW required, which will than = a

1-x=y
1/y=z
z*0.2=b
1-b=a

so in our example:

1-0.25=0.75
1/0.75=1.3333333333etc
1.3r*0.2=0.2666666666etc (ending in a 7)
1-0.26r=0.73333333333etc

so, 73.3333333% haste required (74%)

Hope this helps you in the future. I had to read the haste thread on here for about 2 days to fully understand it *_*
So a big thanks to whomever it was that posted that info for me (and strangely, I thought LLH was one of them?!)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Babekeke

(and strangely, I thought LLH was one of them?!)

---

I was probably posting about 2hander haste numbers, I don't (or didn't) know anything about dual wield.

But that's different now, thanks for the info!

Now, to have our resident SMN-melee trolls to discount the math again because it goes against them, again.

Quote:

---

I see no reason why summoners couldn't get a charge system like cor and sch for pet abilities.

---

I would totally love for this to happen. First SCH, then COR, why not SMN?

Quote:

---

Now, to have our resident SMN-melee trolls to discount the math again because it goes against them, again.

---

You'd better not be lumping me in there. Dallas is the only such troll on these boards. I have the intelligence and wisdom to recognize everything you could ever imagine doing on the job- including looking hot for the ladies.:cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You'd better not be lumping me in there. Dallas is the only such troll on these boards. I have the intelligence and wisdom to recognize everything you could ever imagine doing on the job- including looking hot for the ladies.:cool:

---

Don't worry, I was only lumping Dallas and Mala together. You are safe as long as you don't state that Emp staff SMNs are the best and outdamages everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

Now, to have our resident SMN-melee trolls to discount the math again because it goes against them, again.

---

Last I checked, dual wield is not a relevant topic for SMN, but you absolutely love talking about every job but SMN. Learn some social skills, and maybe I'll start caring that Korpg wants to talk about some other job.

"This message is hidden because Dallas is on your ignore list."

I hope the rest of you are starting to get the idea and should all be seeing that message too instead of biting every time he trolls a thread!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Babekeke

"This message is hidden because Dallas is on your ignore list."

I hope the rest of you are starting to get the idea and should all be seeing that message too instead of biting every time he trolls a thread!

---

You're right. Ignoring a troll is their weakness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

You're right. Ignoring a troll is their weakness.

---

!!

Your attack staggers the fiend!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tagrineth

!!

Your attack staggers the fiend!

---

lolol

but off topic off topic,

guys playing SMN is like watching paint dry

unless of course you're doing your job and erasing, curing, and controlling your avatar. Maybe even going up and using TP- if you already have it and don't need to obtain it by swinging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

lolol

but off topic off topic,

guys playing SMN is like watching paint dry

unless of course you're doing your job and erasing, curing, and controlling your avatar. Maybe even going up and using TP- if you already have it and don't need to obtain it by swinging.

---

Remind me again why it is:

If you want to play a real melee, change job.

but not

If you want to play a real healer, change job.


Obviously you are just randomly picking your facts to create your own truth, when in fact melee and /WHM are two sides of the same coin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malamasala

Remind me again why it is:

If you want to play a real melee, change job.

but not

If you want to play a real healer, change job.


Obviously you are just randomly picking your facts to create your own truth, when in fact melee and /WHM are two sides of the same coin.

---

I'm not saying play a healer

I'm saying play SMN and do something useful with it

Swinging a stick aint so useful, Paralyna is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

I see what you think this test will do, but in all honesty, what is the purpose of this test? Is it to determine how SMN can stack up to WAR given a solo situation? Party situation? Really, what is the purpose of the test, you think?

---

I'm pretty sure I said it is like a BLM nuking level 1 mobs to find base damage on nukes. It is not for checking if a BLM in a party will own level 1 bunnies, but out of curiosity.

In this SMN test, it will show how much of a difference traits and armor selection does. This is a bit more unknown than if there is a difference between G.Axe damage and Staff damage, which for some reason you people want to compare. I mean... what do you expect to find? Staff out-DDing G.Axe? You are only making a mock test to troll.

You could honestly do the same with WAR and DRK if you want to. Equip both with staffs, check how different they are in damage output from traits/armor/spells. That would tell you how close DRK is to WAR, ignoring multi hit crit WSes (which DRKs cry for).

tl;dr it compares melee trait importance, and some armor importance. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I'm not saying play a healer

I'm saying play SMN and do something useful with it

Swinging a stick aint so useful, Paralyna is.

---

It is if the monster has no paralyze.

Might also add that you can swing a stick AND paralyna without any problem at all.

If it doesn't cause any problems, TP feed, stress on WHM.

Undoubtedly though, on any NM worth it's mettle, SMN melee is more hurtful to the party than beneficial.

The situations where SMN can melee are few and far in between.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malamasala

Remind me again why it is:

If you want to play a real melee, change job.

but not

If you want to play a real healer, change job.


Obviously you are just randomly picking your facts to create your own truth, when in fact melee and /WHM are two sides of the same coin.

---

But it is like that. SMN is neither a melee job nor a healer. The best thing a SMN can do is solo. Second best? Deliver TP free damage, you don't even have to release the avatar to do that! Curing Status effects is probably the 4th or 5th best thing, curing HP is just below that, melee is dead bottom.

I'm not saying that you can't do more than one thing at a time. In fact, it is very helpful to do TP free damage AND cure status effects AND help cure HP, much more than swinging a staff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malamasala

It is if the monster has no paralyze.

Might also add that you can swing a stick AND paralyna without any problem at all.

---

Being paralyzed while trying to cast paralyna is a problem though.

Quote:

---

Swinging a stick aint so useful, Paralyna is.

---

Swinging a stick doesn't prevent you from casting Paralyna.

I'm perfectly fine with people not liking the idea of melee, but the above isn't a valid reason. Having your weapon drawn does not in any way stop you from casting spells. Paladins do this all the time. Some people claim it's more difficult, but I don't find it more difficult at all.

Quote:

---

Being paralyzed while trying to cast paralyna is a problem though.

---

Yes, but if you try to remove paralyna from yourself, that means the WHM or whoever else has it can focus on other people and not put any attention on you. This is why /WHM has good utility for the job even if you're not curing much of anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Swinging a stick doesn't prevent you from casting Paralyna.

---

It does when you go /SAM so you can swing the stick faster and more accurate.

My SAM isn't even high enough to sub, so that's not a problem. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

I'm not saying that you can't do more than one thing at a time. In fact, it is very helpful to do TP free damage AND cure status effects AND help cure HP, much more than swinging a staff.

---

I could compare it to DNC. While dealing damage + healing is useful, it isn't always I need to do both. Same with SMN. Sometimes I do not need to cure status effects or cure... should I only stand there and do TP free damage and watch paint dry? No, I'll go poke it with a stick so I have something fun to do.

Do I always melee? No, sometimes I go post on these forums instead between pacts. Why heal if it isn't needed? Better to do something else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

My SAM isn't even high enough to sub, so that's not a problem. :p

---

No actual melee job leveled?

PUP and DNC were my only "melee jobs" until recently I finished DRK. I have WAR and MNK in the 50s,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

PUP and DNC were my only "melee jobs" until recently I finished DRK. I have WAR and MNK in the 50s,

---

Get SAM in your life, and you will wonder what in the heck you were missing from your life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

Get SAM in your life, and you will wonder what in the heck you were missing from your life.

---

SAM isn't a good sub for PUP and is only good for DNC because of meditate essentially being refresh for the job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

PUP and DNC were my only "melee jobs" until recently I finished DRK. I have WAR and MNK in the 50s,

---

That is why you would like /SAM....

We've reduced the world of SMN to paralyna spam today? If the WHM had time to spam a Haste rotation, surely they've been freed up by Hastega to cast Paralyna.

And a quick reminder: when the SMN is proccing red (not the useless non-meleeing SMN, of course), the SMN is subbing /WHM. That means better heals than /RDM, -na spells, and Reraise. Still accurate, and still more MP than /RDM.

Oh, go stick your manhood in the forge. Come on, don't you realize almost everyone has blacklisted you by now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

We've reduced the world of SMN to paralyna spam today? If the WHM had time to spam a Haste rotation, surely they've been freed up by Hastega to cast Paralyna.

And a quick reminder: when the SMN is proccing red (not the useless non-meleeing SMN, of course), the SMN is subbing /WHM. That means better heals than /RDM, -na spells, and Reraise. Still accurate, and still more MP than /RDM.

---

ITT: SMN has Red/Blue procs that a WAR doesn't

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

ITT: SMN has Red/Blue procs that a WAR doesn't

---

Yeah didn't you know they took WAR off the staff procs beacuse they can't keep up with Dallas' hyper charged imaginary melee SMN.

To play the devil's advocate here.

Theoretically if it was say, Light for red, You could have the WAR doing Shinning Blade, and Seraph Strike, while the SMN did Sunburst.

Or if it was Staff for BLU, theres 5 procs, You could have the WAR take 3, and the SMN take 2, and speed up the process.

But i see the point being made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

To play the devil's advocate here.

Theoretically if it was say, Light for red, You could have the WAR doing Shinning Blade, and Seraph Strike, while the SMN did Sunburst.

Or if it was Staff for BLU, theres 5 procs, You could have the WAR take 3, and the SMN take 2, and speed up the process.

But i see the point being made.

---

2 people to do the job of 1

is what abyssea is all about

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

2 people to do the job of 1

is what abyssea is all about

---

I'm only assuming you have both in the party already :X

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I'm only assuming you have both in the party already :X

---

Well, if the WAR is there just to proc, and the SMN is there to tank, then yeah, that would make sense.

SMN tanks?! More likely than you think :O! SMN/MNK GO!

lol but no... not really.