On Red Mage melee...

What is best in slot can easily change depending on mob and other gear, although not as widely as it would for say Thf.

Honestly absolute "best" is pretty straight forward for RDM, if only because we don't have that many options. Your going to want 25% gear haste, 500 Enhancing magic, and either a DEX build for CDC or a MND for Req (or both). Honestly most RDM's will find the MND build far easier to make due to us using that for enfeebles anyway.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

What is best in slot can easily change depending on mob and other gear, although not as widely as it would for say Thf.

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See that isnt what im saying at all. Im not looking for a penultimate or ultimate option of "THIS IS IT!"

What im more talking about is...Okay well let me give a few examples.

Antares Harness.
This piece is great for those red mages using CDC, having the most DEX of any body availible to red mage. On a second note it also has a fair dose of accuracy and evasion making you hit more often while getting hit less often! Lastly the AGI this has also means less TP fed to mobs, and with 2 less AGI than the highest +AGI body this piece can also be used effectively for Extentiator!
Rating; **** (Four stars, which would be voteable)

Brego Gloves.
Here are some great gloves for reaching the haste cap. While the 4 haste is a nice bonus on its own, the 9 accuracy helps make certain you wont be missing as often. Sadly the STR and AGI are nice, but arent particularly high and dont offer too much for the TP phase and with better options for weaponskills, it seems the STR/AGI+5 are just an afterthought. Despite that, this is a great piece that has satisfied my expectations for a haste piece.
Rating; *****

Heafoc Mitts.
Hmm, hard to say clearly on this piece. It offers the most STR of any hands availible to Red Mage, but with penalties to DEX and Accuracy, it really hurts the score of these piece. All in all its still a great piece but its hard to balance at times, use em if you can, but dont stress it if you dont.
Rating; **

See thats the kind of thing i mean, it doesnt say "best for CDC when fighting X" and while it lists some obvious things, it also lists something less commonly talked about by new players (Being that agi affects TP feed).

Thats the sort of thing i am refering to. Like i said, it doesnt need to be just for rdm and not just melee. But thats what im getting at.

Well pre update, Antares pretty much was 'it' for CDC body, the next best option being Assault Jerkin, anything after that wasn't worth mentioning. The first piece that's come close/surpassing it in damage is the new kudzu body. For Haste Hands, Brego are a step up from Dusk+1 (barely if you don't need the accuracy and a large one if you do). Discounting +str during TP phase... idk what to say...

Heafoc were only good for Vorpal Blade/Death Blossom, neither of which are either viable most of the time, or have been replaced by meritable weaponskills.

It's probably far easier to check with various forums with Rdm melee threads and ask there for ideal/fairly easy to acquire sets. If you know where to look, ask Motenten about his DPS sheets, he has several made for several jobs and it will give you a good idea of example pieces to use for tp/ws once you get used to reading it.

For people who do this regularly like us, there isnt much need for this, i know what gear i want to aim for, and the only doubts i ever have are when two pieces of gear are close and need to be measured. Its true that these newbie rdms and all jobs for that matter, should be on the boards asking about this stuff, but some people get embarassed, or are too shy. And still others dont/cant understand spreadsheets. Say what you will, i still think a catalogue of sorts is the way to go. Thought it really feels like you are taking me saying this as more of me personally saying "I dont know what to wear!" Im already working on ruby pants (Wish people shouted for Kalasutrax on my server more than 1x a week...)

All im saying is those visual learners can do better with a graphical representation, and too many resources now dont even have a mid-range of gear options. That player without an assault jerkin, a morri body, and antares harness (and Kudzu now) would just look at the list and go "What do i use until i can get one of those?" and unlike nearly every other job sans sch, smn, whm, and blm, they dont have pink or white gear to hobble along with. /endrant. All im saying is if i had a place to put it up that wouldnt look shabby and allowed some sorta voting/comments/Reviews functions, id do it myself. I just lack the resourced to make such a website that wouldnt look cheezy, and doing it on the wiki i feel would take up more space than id be allowed. Would be a nice community project though, just i dont think this (the rdm community) is the one to spearhead it. But a guy can dream. The resources are out there, theyre just scattered wide, or have big gaps in them i guess.

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Originally Posted by Crimson_Slasher

All im saying is those visual learners can do better with a graphical representation, and too many resources now dont even have a mid-range of gear options. That player without an assault jerkin, a morri body, and antares harness (and Kudzu now) would just look at the list and go "What do i use until i can get one of those?" and unlike nearly every other job sans sch, smn, whm, and blm, they dont have pink or white gear to hobble along with. /endrant.

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We realize this, but this goes back to a point I made in the OP: RDM melee gear is lacking. Unlike the other jobs with melee capabilities, we don't have much in terms of hold-over gear. This is made worse by my other point, in that non-linear gear progression compounds the problem when your options are either mediocre or non-existant.

That was largely why I went trough the trouble of coming up with a revision for Evoliths in General Discussion, just so that our job could have something that could hold us over in some capacity, specially taking into account that the devs aren't going to directly help us in that regard. By comparison, BLUs got melee hold-overs (and then some) on a silver platter, and believe me when I say it annoys me to no end.

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All im saying is if i had a place to put it up that wouldnt look shabby and allowed some sorta voting/comments/Reviews functions, id do it myself. I just lack the resourced to make such a website that wouldnt look cheezy, and doing it on the wiki i feel would take up more space than id be allowed. Would be a nice community project though, just i dont think this (the rdm community) is the one to spearhead it. But a guy can dream. The resources are out there, theyre just scattered wide, or have big gaps in them i guess.

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The infighting seems to have died down between the two RDM camps, but with such a small playerbase I don't see anyone leading an effort with lasting results. The websites I mentioned earlier exist solely because you have a ton of dedicated individuals theorycrafting left and right, creating spreadsheets and sites like Elitist Jerks largely contributing to that. Even now that WoW's population has taken the hit due to cataclysm, there are still numerous individuals providing parses and results and allocating DPS/HPS/Effective Health values to gear. In all honesty, we'd need to have like 20 Motentens to start catching up to that kind of momentum. With their own websites. On top of a large community of people looking into things in connection to the three roles in a group (I focused on DPS sites, but you also have sites like restodruid.com for people who play healers). Without the devs trying to throw curveballs to keep things "mysterious"; seriously, the biggest contribution to theorycrafting during Wrath of the Lich King was made by Ghostcrawler himself, where he actually explained how the stat Armor Penetration worked in detail, down to numbers, formulas and everything. We don't see Ito or Tanaka stepping into threads to contribute to that degree.

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Originally Posted by Crimson_Slasher

Im already working on ruby pants (Wish people shouted for Kalasutrax on my server more than 1x a week...)

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I feel your pain.

Like i said, if i had the means, id spearhead it myself, i have coding experience but not on webpages. Webdesign is largely foreign to me. I could see a large ls, elitist or not doing something like this, sadly, my social ls feels sometimes like everyone is too busy to skill/gear/etc on most jobs. If they cant have time to do that, then i dont want to distract them more for what is largely a side project. Especially with so many roles, functions, jobs, specialized ws and spells, its no small undertaking. Im sure when we stop getting pelted/flooded with updates it might get easier for it to be done.

Honestly Im happy they keep updating though, it means 2 things. 1 we might see this game live on & grow some still even after 14 is redone. 2 is we might also see RDM get fixed up a bit, which is always a happy thought.

also, I was discussing with Saeval i think earlier about Ephemeron as a weapon. Haste+3, TP Drain. Well

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/18904/ephemeron

Looking at accounts here, the TP Drain is incredibly significant. 59~ "Almost 100% TP" drained. Proc rate I didnt get too, BUt it drains an absurd amount of TP. So i think i can safely say this kills just about any other offhand depending on the mob you're fighting and if it would resist. :D (Still impossible to obtain, and no i dont care if you already sicussed it)

That is very nice :O

I wanted the thing anyways. This just makes it better.

So, lowbie RDM just returning to the game, and I have to say, I'm already getting a bit frustrated. Are there any melee RDM-friendly linkshells around on Odin? Kind of tired of getting treated like I'm an idiot for even suggesting that the class can be played that way, whenever it comes up in a party.

i'm not on odin, but i still feel pretty comfortable saying.. no.. there isn't.

rdm as a melee, even the THEORY of rdm as a melee, is generally unpopular. i don't LIKE it, but that is how it is.

on a personal note, as a bit of advice.. at this point in ffxi... melee RDM should not be your first job. (rdm in general prolly shouldn't be your first job) to even get to a point where people are willing to yell at you about how wrong you are, as opposed to just completely dismiss you, you need a lot of gear.

a proper redmage needs gearsets similar to what a whm, a blm, AND a war would carry. obviously not identical gear, but sets with similar intents: cure, nuke (maybe 2 nuke sets for varying resist rate mobs), buff, pdt, mdt, mnd based enfeeb, int based enfeeb (and variants on these sets for, resist rate, and the specific enfeeb. no such thing as silence potency) then to be a melee red mage, add on tp and ws sets.

you can't really half-ass any aspect of the job, ESPECIALLY if you claim to be a melee-rdm. people will grasp onto that and use it as ammo against not only you, but me, and anybody else who happens to fall on the pro-melee side of this great 162 page chasm.

for what it's worth though, a proper rdm can put out respectable numbers. but there will always be the catch 22 in that to DD, you have to not cast... every spell you cast, lowers your DPS. but if you don't cast at all, you might as well just be a warrior. dungeon crawls are rare nowadays, and they're really the only situation i can think of where the idea of rdm would be legitimately useful. having a melee that can switch over to being a mage at a moments notice is useless when you spam the same single monster fight all night and you KNOW exactly how many mages and melees you're gonna need. (and even that is assuming you are legitimately GOOD as a melee and a mage. some will argue that rdm is neither right now but.... meh..)


so yah, sorry for this soul crusher of a post, i REALLY wish rdm melee was more useful.. i have argued for it, i have done my best to represent it in a positive light, and i will continue doing it whenever possible just because that's how i want to play... but the cold hard reality is that "whenever possible" is fairly uncommon.

RDM Melee does suffer a significant amount. You even pointed out exactly why, Casting lowers your DPS potential, and if you're not casting, You're not really a Red Mage, You're a Weak Warrior. So it is a conundrum.

Even with a Mandau and Exenterator (<3), RDM Melee is still difficult for me. I'm sure Chant would probably be better... I Just made Mandau for my THF. Need to work more on my WS gear too on RDM. my TP Set is a bit behind but still competitive.

You can do RDM Melee well on fodder content, For instance, in Dynamis you'd not be half bad if you gear right, But it just falls to the problem again, like in past Final Fantasy Titles, RDM can do a lot, just master none. You can cure, But not as good as WHM, you can nuke, not as good as BLM, you can melee, but not as good as WAR. RDM has always been a combination of jobs that favors adaptions over mastery.

Unfortunately in FFXI, SE has made them too mediocre, and they suffer greatly for it. Boosting their sword to an A- and actually giving them a few JT/JA on the side of Melee would be nice. I wish they'd make up their mind (Composure having +10 Accuracy comes ot mind....)

They have Enspells, Which could be so much more than they are now. one of the biggest (in my opinion, Non-complaints..) about Enspell is the removal of possible Haste Samba. My opinion is, RDM Should get a Job Trait, say level 30, That increases their Attack speed with Enspells on. Give it tiers to not be too powerful early on (Even though hasso.... grumblegrumble)

Level 30/50/70/90 - : Adds 3% Attack Speed Bonus with Enspell Active.
*Each Additional Tier +2, +3, +2 (Total of +10 Haste with Enspell, Same as Haste Samba, and Hasso, Counts as JA Haste).

Alternatively, Make it a Job Ability. Able to be kept up like hasso, but offer a small negative effect in return. Also would be nice to have equipment more designed toward Enspell/Enspell II, Like High Haste RDM-set with Enhancing magic skill. (If I'm not mistaken, Enspell II damage goes up based on your enhancing skill when you land the hit, Not the initial Cast, right? Or did that change...)

Theres a lot of potential with the job that would not overpower it. SE is so afraid of RDM returning to the days of Solo'ing everything, They've removed any light of what made it unique. Its an issue that needs to be addressed, but falls on deaf ears because its not their "Vision".

Mark of a bad game designer is ignoring any advice given and continuing down their path regardless of feedback. Having a "Vision" is nice, But games, even if just between Devs, are a collaborative journey. Between Devs, or Player Feedback. Not everyone can agree on RDM Melee, but every RDM in this forum would agree the job desperately needs something.

Just brainstorming... but with the manner in which players wish RDM could have meleed better, perhaps a JA or JT for Enspells would have been more appropriate than just the spells alone with/without Composure.

None of these are honest "suggestions" to revamping the FFXI incarnation of RDM, however, for the sake of argument, let's assume the FFXI environment for these suggestions:

====If Job Ability====
RDM.40
Instant, 5min Recast
Manablade (Allows you to target yourself with the following spells, granting an "additional effect" to your mainhand weapon:
(Additional effect chance and potency based on Enhancing Magic, despite Spell's native group)

Fire (creates Enfire, and random chance of "Additional Effect: STR down")
Water (creates Enwater, and random chance of "Additional Effect: MND down")
Thunder (creates Enthunder, and random chance of "Additional Effect: DEX down")
Stone (creates Enstone, and random chance of "Additional Effect: VIT down")
Aero (creates Enaero, and random chance of "Additional Effect: AGI down")
Blizzard (creates Enblizzard, and random chance of "Additional Effect: INT down")
Dia (creates Enlight, and random chance of "Additional Effect: Defense Down")*
Bio (creates Endark, and random chance of "Additional Effect: Attack Down")*

*Effect will stack with native spells Dia and Bio

==Merit Category (put current Tier II enfeebles on scrolls and replace with the following): Max per category 30:

=Appel (cost: 15 merit points ):
"Additional Effect: Fire Resistence Down" added to "Additional Effect: STR Down" bonus
"Additional Effect: Water Resistence Down" added to "Additional Effect: MND Down" bonus
"Additional Effect: Thunder Resistence Down" added to "Additional Effect: DEX Down" bonus
"Additional Effect: Earth Reistence Down" added to "Additional Effect: VIT Down" bonus
"Additional Effect: Wind Resistence Down" added to "Additional Effect: AGI Down" bonus
"Additional Effect: Ice Resistence Down" added to "Additional Effect: INT Down" bonus
"Additional Effect: Magic Defense Down" added to "Additional Effect: Defense Down" bonus
"Additional Effect: Magic Attack Down" added to "Additional Effect: Attack Down" bonus

=Riposte: cost: 15 merit points
Increases Parry rate, and grants additional effects to a parry, as if the parrying player had struck the target

=Insistence: cost: 15 merit points
If your attack is parried or blocked, immediately follow up with a second attack.

=Fleche: cost: 15 merit points
Sacrifice remaining enspell effect duration to boost the next attack. Chance of critical hit is increases with TP.z
(must wait 1 minute after using this ability before reapplying an enspell effect)

=Noblesse Oblige: cost: 15 merit points
Instant, 5min cooldown
When used before Manablade, allows the Enspell effect to be cast on another party member for full effect.

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or, if we didn't change the -way- Enspells worked, we could add:

====Job Trait====
Lv.45 Enspell Bonus I (Increases accuracy and attack speed while Enspell is in effect)
Lv.65 Enspell Bonus II
Lv.85 Enspell Bonus III

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

If I'm not mistaken, Enspell II damage goes up based on your enhancing skill when you land the hit, Not the initial Cast, right? Or did that change...

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that is correct, and it is utter nonsense... why reward someone for NOT tping in melee gear? the spell is flawed at the very foundation... after that it's all suck-gravy.

i don't immediately take 80 dmg to my stoneskin as soon as i take off my buff gear? the fuck should my enspell drop 10 points?

the ability to swap gear is like... key to just about everything any job does in ffxi.. why take that away for one spell? sometimes i consider submitting a bug report about it..

like seriously you guys... the fuck?!

Enspell II's suck in general, they only beat Enspell I's when your not DWing. DW with around ~30% DA makes means 2.6 average attacks per round. 30 * 2.6 = 78 average per round. Assuming Enspell II started at maximum potency (420 skill) for 52 damage (26*2) per round. Enspell I's end up 50% better, enspell II's would have to be 79 or higher in order to beat out I's. Yeah that "only on first hit" part was a really stupid idea by SE, coupled with its max potency being determined by skill on-strike.

I don't think it's a stretch to call the second tier of En-Spells the most confounding thing in all of Final Fantasy XI.

They are working correctly unlike some of the broken Blue Magic, so that's not the reason they're so bad.

They were never the target of a heavy-handed and ham-fisted adjustment as was Modus Veritas, so that's not the reason they're so bad.

A Red Mage hitting a thing with a thing doesn't do enough damage that more damage would be an issue, so it seems unlikely the spells are awful for job balance reasons.

Yet, from applying only to the first hit to using Enhancing Magic on hit rather than on cast to requiring time to build to full damage to weakening stuff to elements in the most nonsensical way possible, the second tier of en-spells do everything wrong. Literally every decision made pertaining to these spells was the wrong one.

It is as if the Development Bros wanted to make something extraordinarily awful just to experience the pure pleasure they derive from making awful things.

Only use I see in them is the fact of using Sambas with /DNC and still getting the effects, mainly haste samba but thats about all they are good for, other than that they are just a massive fail on SE's part, which should be changed, make them more powerful if only on 1 hand or still more powerful than En1s and both hands... If they wanted to mess with En2s and make them not just better than En1s they could have went the path of Phalanx, cast on others, but instead they gave us with very little use : /

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

i'm not on odin, but i still feel pretty comfortable saying.. no.. there isn't.

rdm as a melee, even the THEORY of rdm as a melee, is generally unpopular. i don't LIKE it, but that is how it is.

on a personal note, as a bit of advice.. at this point in ffxi... melee RDM should not be your first job. (rdm in general prolly shouldn't be your first job) to even get to a point where people are willing to yell at you about how wrong you are, as opposed to just completely dismiss you, you need a lot of gear.

a proper redmage needs gearsets similar to what a whm, a blm, AND a war would carry. obviously not identical gear, but sets with similar intents: cure, nuke (maybe 2 nuke sets for varying resist rate mobs), buff, pdt, mdt, mnd based enfeeb, int based enfeeb (and variants on these sets for, resist rate, and the specific enfeeb. no such thing as silence potency) then to be a melee red mage, add on tp and ws sets.

you can't really half-ass any aspect of the job, ESPECIALLY if you claim to be a melee-rdm. people will grasp onto that and use it as ammo against not only you, but me, and anybody else who happens to fall on the pro-melee side of this great 162 page chasm.

for what it's worth though, a proper rdm can put out respectable numbers. but there will always be the catch 22 in that to DD, you have to not cast... every spell you cast, lowers your DPS. but if you don't cast at all, you might as well just be a warrior. dungeon crawls are rare nowadays, and they're really the only situation i can think of where the idea of rdm would be legitimately useful. having a melee that can switch over to being a mage at a moments notice is useless when you spam the same single monster fight all night and you KNOW exactly how many mages and melees you're gonna need. (and even that is assuming you are legitimately GOOD as a melee and a mage. some will argue that rdm is neither right now but.... meh..)


so yah, sorry for this soul crusher of a post, i REALLY wish rdm melee was more useful.. i have argued for it, i have done my best to represent it in a positive light, and i will continue doing it whenever possible just because that's how i want to play... but the cold hard reality is that "whenever possible" is fairly uncommon.

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@Doombringer I couldn't have said this any better. /bow

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

i'm not on odin, but i still feel pretty comfortable saying.. no.. there isn't.

rdm as a melee, even the THEORY of rdm as a melee, is generally unpopular. i don't LIKE it, but that is how it is.

on a personal note, as a bit of advice.. at this point in ffxi... melee RDM should not be your first job. (rdm in general prolly shouldn't be your first job) to even get to a point where people are willing to yell at you about how wrong you are, as opposed to just completely dismiss you, you need a lot of gear.

a proper redmage needs gearsets similar to what a whm, a blm, AND a war would carry. obviously not identical gear, but sets with similar intents: cure, nuke (maybe 2 nuke sets for varying resist rate mobs), buff, pdt, mdt, mnd based enfeeb, int based enfeeb (and variants on these sets for, resist rate, and the specific enfeeb. no such thing as silence potency) then to be a melee red mage, add on tp and ws sets.

you can't really half-ass any aspect of the job, ESPECIALLY if you claim to be a melee-rdm. people will grasp onto that and use it as ammo against not only you, but me, and anybody else who happens to fall on the pro-melee side of this great 162 page chasm.

for what it's worth though, a proper rdm can put out respectable numbers. but there will always be the catch 22 in that to DD, you have to not cast... every spell you cast, lowers your DPS. but if you don't cast at all, you might as well just be a warrior. dungeon crawls are rare nowadays, and they're really the only situation i can think of where the idea of rdm would be legitimately useful. having a melee that can switch over to being a mage at a moments notice is useless when you spam the same single monster fight all night and you KNOW exactly how many mages and melees you're gonna need. (and even that is assuming you are legitimately GOOD as a melee and a mage. some will argue that rdm is neither right now but.... meh..)


so yah, sorry for this soul crusher of a post, i REALLY wish rdm melee was more useful.. i have argued for it, i have done my best to represent it in a positive light, and i will continue doing it whenever possible just because that's how i want to play... but the cold hard reality is that "whenever possible" is fairly uncommon.

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I actually know a couple melee rdm on Bismarck that would've invited me to their LS if I'd been on that server, so I thought it'd be worth asking here. Disappointing to see my favorite class has degraded to this, though.

Will say though, I don't plan on class-switching regardless. I haven't been able to play often, but I started up my rdm about three years ago, and I'm not stopping now just because it's not easy to play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Runalin

Disappointing to see my favorite class has degraded to this, though.

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yah.. it's a fuckin shame dude.. i've been an rdm for like.. i don't even know at this point.. i got ffxi the day it was released for ps2 so, what, 7 years? 8?

i hate to be the party shitter i just figured i'd be honest with yah.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Runalin

Will say though, I don't plan on class-switching regardless. I haven't been able to play often, but I started up my rdm about three years ago, and I'm not stopping now just because it's not easy to play.

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if you insist on toughing it out, good luck. i'm with you in spirit.

i only suggest you level something else first because it will make rdm life SO much easier. a whm could show up to abyssea or voidwatch naked and still "get by" with the right atmas or temps. find a small aby group that needs a whm, and see if it's allright with them if you also take the rdm stuff. most people have multiple jobs nowadays anyway so this wouldn't be an outlandish or greedy thing to ask.

if your group really takes off you'll eventually start making an emp or 2 for each other. nobody will expect you to make your emp for your whm.. and almace is pretty damn cool.. makes rdm infinitely more fun.. but i only got mine because my aby group needed a war and i happened to also be one. sadly i've done very little aby on rdm.



and before anybody jumps down my throat, i understand there is a HUGE difference between a solid career whm and a cure mule, i recently burned whm myself and just having it skilled up and being payed attention to was like night and day compared to my friends whm mules. so i cannot fathom how much better it would be were my whm geared properly or if i knew what i was doing. but that fact of the matter remains people USE whm mules so it's got a low bar for "acceptable"

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

and before anybody jumps down my throat, i understand there is a HUGE difference between a solid career whm and a cure mule, i recently burned whm myself and just having it skilled up and being payed attention to was like night and day compared to my friends whm mules. so i cannot fathom how much better it would be were my whm geared properly or if i knew what i was doing. but that fact of the matter remains people USE whm mules so it's got a low bar for "acceptable"

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Or when they invite people's gimpy WHM they bring instead of actually gearing a job, and often will fill WHM slots in a Voidwatch over career White Mages, but will only accept damage dealers with super weapons.

On Red Mage for Abyssea stuff, as long as you have some decent cure potency gear (Light Staff does not cut it, the magian trial staff isn't hard), and you sub Scholar to cover gimpy Healing Magic skill (or skill it up I suppose), you can actually do pretty good. I'd imagine it would be a pretty solid choice for duoing inside Abyssea as well if you're well geared.

Scholars just do it better though, which is one of the reasons Red Mages don't get into many events, since anything where you don't need a White Mage's curaga/shellra/barelementra spells (pretty much the only benefits now since good White Mages only rarely dip into Cure V, and Scholar can match this) is better served with a Scholar. Some creative players might come up with something, but based on current trends it would be reasonable not just to expect Red Mages to stay in the invite light category but to see White Mages start to veer towards the same category once the metagame starts getting unstuck unless something changes.

I think leveling White Mage is pretty much the worst advice you could give someone who wants to spend time playing Red Mage. Level a useful job, sure, but once they know you have White Mage there will be very few situations in which you'll be able to come Red Mage instead. White Mage is just that ridiculously powerful and overshadows Red Mage's utility in so many group activities.

I can't even begin to count how many times people have asked me if I had White Mage leveled.

Just pretend you didn't level it even if you did.

Problem is say I goto a party, and its for instance a seal party, I take WHM over RDM simply for light procs because its coming up, now I join a VW party with one of the same people from that seal party and they point out I have used it with them before. Has happened to me, even if not common :x

That's when you just say "I'm going WHM" and stick around... there are very few people that DON'T have RDM levelled, and those that complain can just go level it themselves if they think it will make-or-break the dynamic of the group.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Economizer

On Red Mage for Abyssea stuff, as long as you have some decent cure potency gear (Light Staff does not cut it, the magian trial staff isn't hard), and you sub Scholar to cover gimpy Healing Magic skill (or skill it up I suppose), you can actually do pretty good. I'd imagine it would be a pretty solid choice for duoing inside Abyssea as well if you're well geared.

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It's worth mentioning that if you're a RDM duoing in Abyssea and your potential target is so dangerous that even your tricked-out RDM is incapable of healing it, your melee partner is not without options to cover the slack, so it's probably reasonable to call him/her out for not setting something like Mounted Champion or Future Fabulous considering they knew they were playing with a RDM.

At this point, IMO the biggest thing overshadowing RDM duoing in Abyssea is not WHM, but rather SCH with Embrava and SSL chests.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

so it's probably reasonable to call him/her out for not setting something like Mounted Champion or Future Fabulous

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I get Future Fabulous since it has Magic Defense Bonus, but I don't get Mounted Champion. How is 20HP/tic going to save someone when you're healing for well over 400 on Cure III and 800 on Cure IV? I know you lose a bit of a safety net going Red Mage but there are few things in Abyssea that will be so dangerous a well equipped Red Mage won't be able to handle it, assuming the duo partner isn't a mushpot for brains.

And I don't think it is just Abyssea where Scholars are overshadowing Red Mages and White Mages.

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And I don't think it is just Abyssea where Scholars are overshadowing Red Mages and White Mages.

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Nope not even close. You'll always bring a WHM over both SCH and RDM for two reasons, first being yellow light procs (seal / +2 items), second being Hexa during Blunt for blue procs. The only situation you'd bring a SCH over a WHM is if you already had the pops and only planned on doing two Apademaks / Azdaja, then and only then would Embrava actually mean anything. Otherwise your already overpowered for everything else.

Abyssea is about procs pure and simple. Anyone with a half decent brain can easily kill any NM except maybe Azdaja / Apadamek due to their rather unique set of TP moves. And for those two you can easily brew them should things get messy.

Now outside of abyseea, you bring SCH for embrava on super zerg fights inside Legion / Provenance, but we're talking about Abyssea here.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

I get Future Fabulous since it has Magic Defense Bonus, but I don't get Mounted Champion. How is 20HP/tic going to save someone when you're healing for well over 400 on Cure III and 800 on Cure IV? I know you lose a bit of a safety net going Red Mage but there are few things in Abyssea that will be so dangerous a well equipped Red Mage won't be able to handle it, assuming the duo partner isn't a mushpot for brains.

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Personally, I don't think there are many situations in Abyssea a RDM couldn't duo-heal at 99 if any at all, but my point is that Abyssea in particular gives the DD/tank a lot of options to take pressure off her healer. Saying "RDM can't heal that!" unfairly gives the DD a pass from having to actually make the duo work.

My mind just went to MC because I happen to like it a lot; obviously FF/+HP/a particular elemental resist atma is going to be the more obvious and consistent choice.

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And I don't think it is just Abyssea where Scholars are overshadowing Red Mages and White Mages.

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I actually didn't read the end of your post before responding to it. Sorry.

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Nope not even close. You'll always bring a WHM over both SCH and RDM for two reasons, first being yellow light procs (seal / +2 items), second being Hexa during Blunt for blue procs.

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Yes, waiting all day for a specific time to pop trivial shit for which we could just solo another popset rather than just go right now with what we've got is definitely something people still do in Abyssea.

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The only situation you'd bring a SCH over a WHM is if you already had the pops and only planned on doing two Apademaks / Azdaja, then and only then would Embrava actually mean anything. Otherwise your already overpowered for everything else.

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It's about killing faster, not simply killing at all.

Embrava is perhaps even more meaningful for KI farming, as the pretty-substantial Regain shaves a TON of time off cycling through potential red procs and a 70ish/tic Regen leaves the SCH "healer" free to go off and find the next SSL chest.

The main reason people gravitated towards the "light/darkday for everything" paradigm was because they were leaning on WHMs to dualbox everything already and going with a different time meant bringing another body. That's no longer relevant now that other healing jobs can easily handle the burden; if you are that desperate for yellow procs out of your healer, you might as well have a BLM/SCH or something come heal. That Hexastrike rounds out the Blunt procs is fine and good but it is yet another fringe benefit to a job you were bringing for totally different reasons; only the greatest of doofuses would have ever refused to pop an NM on the basis of being "only" 14/15 on blue procs.

Umm lightsday / darksday what? Never heard of only going on specific days cause no matter the choice you'd still be missing a ton of procs. If your seal +2 farming you bring a BLM, otherwise your wasting a large amount of time.

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Yes, waiting all day for a specific time to pop trivial shit for which we could just solo another popset rather than just go right now with what we've got is definitely something people still do in Abyssea.

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You won't be "soloing" another popset anytime soon, not without red procs. If you try to proc blue outside of blunt time then your list of potential procs grows to pretty much every other job in the game. Don't proc blue and your wasting your time.

Abysea has and always will be about hitting procs to maximize loot, hitting procs is like having TH +50, its the difference between 0~2 seals dropping and 2~4 seals dropping. From 1~2 +2 items dropping to 3~5 +2 items dropping. The only time you can get around that is with timed spawn NM's that you just drive-by kill with THF + healer and hope for the best.

I only say all this because we're talking "low man duo", so two people max. MNK + WHM being ~the~ most common for blue !! procs and THF + WHM for anything else. Honestly I don't see the point in killing sh!t with only two people, even if one of them is my dual box WHM. It's a huge waste of time. Instead get these things called friends and take turns helping each other out, you can get loot much faster then constantly killing NM's hoping to get *lucky* without procs. BLM/BRD + WHM + BLU/NIN + THF is an absolute monster low man group. The WHM / BLM can be someone's naked dual box mule, so technically it's still a "duo". You will proc yellow on almost everything you fight along with hitting high TH for tons of drops. If red is an issue then switch the BLU out for a WAR/SAM (gets Jinpu, certain gear can get you Koki). You can now proc both yellow and red on pretty much everything your going to fight. If your needing to fight something for a blue proc then just have someone go change to MNK prior to the H2H time. If you don't have one of those jobs then get off your lazy arse and go level one of them. Abyssea @99 is a joke, the "hardest" NM is easily kill-able by a single person using a single temp item. Those "hardest" NM's are kill-able with low to moderate difficulty by a group of three to four people without using any brews.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Umm lightsday / darksday what? Never heard of only going on specific days cause no matter the choice you'd still be missing a ton of procs. If your seal +2 farming you bring a BLM, otherwise your wasting a large amount of time.

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You were the one to mention yellow procs in the context of WHM.

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You won't be "soloing" another popset anytime soon, not without red procs.

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If you try to proc blue outside of blunt time then your list of potential procs grows to pretty much every other job in the game. Don't proc blue and your wasting your time.

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If you have MNK leveled, going for blue !! outside of blunt time is indeed a waste, but only because blunt time rolls around once every 40 minutes and MNK blows everything else out of the water to a degree that I have a hard time seeing as anything other than an oversight on SE's part.

If you don't have MNK leveled, you shouldn't sweat it, because pretty much every DD can hit a good third of the potential blue procs during at least one phase, and there are maybe a half dozen drops in all of Abyssea worth worrying about that come from NMs with popsets that any DD/WAR capable of not dying can't solo in under an hour.

Abyssea is easy. Only idiots allow the perfect to become the enemy of the good.

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Abysea has and always will be about hitting procs to maximize loot, hitting procs is like having TH +50, its the difference between 0~2 seals dropping and 2~4 seals dropping. From 1~2 +2 items dropping to 3~5 +2 items dropping. The only time you can get around that is with timed spawn NM's that you just drive-by kill with THF + healer and hope for the best.

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No, Abyssea is about hitting procs when it is convenient to hit procs. Otherwise it is about getting things done in as little time as possible, and procs are only relevant insofar as they help this goal. If you say, "gosh, I had better wait until light/darksday so my WHM can hit yellow procs for +2 items," you're doing it wrong, because right now there is a different NM you could be killing for a substantial chance at a procless +2 item you're after.

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I only say all this because we're talking "low man duo", so two people max. MNK + WHM being ~the~ most common for blue !! procs and THF + WHM for anything else. Honestly I don't see the point in killing sh!t with only two people, even if one of them is my dual box WHM. It's a huge waste of time.

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You only think that because you don't understand the value of time.

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Instead get these things called friends and take turns helping each other out, you can get loot much faster then constantly killing NM's hoping to get *lucky* without procs. BLM/BRD + WHM + BLU/NIN + THF is an absolute monster low man group. The WHM / BLM can be someone's naked dual box mule, so technically it's still a "duo". You will proc yellow on almost everything you fight along with hitting high TH for tons of drops.

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To the rather debatable extent that scheduling one's free time around the vast reserves of wasted time in which manchildren populating this game swim is ever worth it at all*, it certainly isn't worth it for the purposes of procs in Abyssea.

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If red is an issue then switch the BLU out for a WAR/SAM (gets Jinpu, certain gear can get you Koki). You can now proc both yellow and red on pretty much everything your going to fight. If your needing to fight something for a blue proc then just have someone go change to MNK prior to the H2H time. If you don't have one of those jobs then get off your lazy arse and go level one of them. Abyssea @99 is a joke, the "hardest" NM is easily kill-able by a single person using a single temp item. Those "hardest" NM's are kill-able with low to moderate difficulty by a group of three to four people without using any brews.

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NIN/WAR for everything you need a KI from, BST for everything you don't. Just buy Epona's Ring.

*HEY GUYS HAVE YOU SEEN THIS ANIME AND/OR REDDIT MEME

I'm not sure what the point of this current discussion is, at least as pertains to Red Mage.

Much like a pair of short-pants made out of living porcupines, Red Mage's use in Abyssea is due entirely to a very subjective choice made for personal reasons or desperation due to lack of other options. Not that the former can't be a valid reason, it definitely can be when something can be as laid-back as Abyssea can be, but both are totally unrelated to effectiveness and thus any attempt to discuss effectiveness sounds a little ridiculous.

I really, really, really want to continue my stupid simile about porcupine short-pants but I have nothing else to say. So, I looked up a ridiculous picture using Google Image Search to satisfy my juvenile sense of humor.

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the vast reserves of wasted time in which manchildren populating this game swim

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http://www.fantastikresimler.net/wp-...-man-photo.jpg

I am sated.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

No, Abyssea is about hitting procs when it is convenient to hit procs.

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It is -never- convenient to -not- hit procs.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

I actually didn't read the end of your post before responding to it. Sorry.

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I wouldn't worry about it too much, it was more of an afterthought that I almost didn't include because it falls into the more controversial category.

I probably didn't make myself too clear, because I was actually trying to refer to stuff outside Abyssea as the focus on that statement. Abyssea is pretty figured out and I don't really think out discussion is really going to be saying much except to newer players.

At 99 everything is powerful in Abyssea. Red Mage is powerful in the sense that just like Scholar you get to cure "good enough"™ to cover healing, with the added bonus that you can do other stuff (generally better) then a White Mage, such as Phalanx if you are doing an AoE farm (native MAB for Aeolian Edge doesn't hurt either if doing it more solo-y), or having better nukes. Of course you have procs and other stuff that might throw a wrench in your job selection, but really if it is a situation where you need 100% coverage on procs it is probably a situation where bringing a party rather then trying to super lowman it will get the job done way quicker, and the benefit of having a Red Mage is somewhat lessened.

I don't even know why in this aside which is clearly not aimed towards newer players why I have to explain anything about Abyssea, but I suppose I wasn't as clear as I could be that I was trying to focus away from Abyssea when making such a statement... but that doesn't even matter, because despite this not being the focus, it still generally holds true even inside, particularly for the lowmans that were being discussed before. In Abyssea, you lose what, one blue proc? Since the discussion was about duoing that brings us to yellow procs, which Scholar (and Red Mage) handles with more variety then White Mage does by far. Scholar just gets to come out ahead with common Embrava coverage, better healing, and better nuking. If having less then a handful of procs in certain rare cases is better then healing just as good, having more haste most of the time, and being able to contribute to damage, then maybe there would be merit to those claims. But there isn't, even though that's not the thought I was trying to convey.

Did Tiger NM today for body seals.

BLM/RDM (no /BRD leveled)
NIN/DNC (was just helping)
WHM/SCH (me)
THF/DNC
DNC/NIN (don't ask he had a pop set)

Out of four NM pops here are the results.
NM #1: Yellow Proced, 2 seals dropped
NM #2: Not Proced, 0 seals dropped (nothing dropped)
NM #3: Yellow Proced, 4 seals dropped
NM #4: Yellow Proced, 3 seals dropped

THF had Relic +2 hands, Emp +2 feet and TK in off hand, would proc to at least TH8 on every fight.

I'd say procing yellow was pretty damn important, I'd even say not procing yellow would be a complete waste of time.

If you absolutely HAD to go "duo" then THF/NIN + BLM/WHM or BLM/SCH period, end of story. During that entire fight I didn't have to cast more then a Cure III. At 99 a THF has such high evasion and evasion gear that they would rarely even be hit, with minimal healing they could easily kill any NM while also having a large chance at getting a yellow proc. If we're talking blue then it depends if it's a drive by killing (Loki's ect..) or a poped NM (Ocelot ect..). If it's drive by the just throw TH at it until it drops, if you get luck you can proc it. If it's a planned pop, why in the hell would you not plan out to have the appropriate procing jobs available prior to poping it. You would seriously throw away an EE, Lacovia or Chloris pop on the low ball chance you happen to get the R/EX drop anyway? I've done more Chloris's then I ever want to remember, something like 300+ now, those hands have a low drop rate without blue proc. Lacovie is stingy as hell on that belt without blue proc, heck he's stingy even with blue proc. That's just with the Tahrongi zone NMs, there are still 8 other zones and the Shinyru fight.

So please tell the entire forum how you'd like to throw away you and your partners pop sets just so you can prove how great embrava is on SCH.

In the entire time I've been doing abyssea, I've never once heard SCH being asked for. My LS's resident SCH is asked to come on BLM or MNK constantly to events. SCH ... overshadowing WHM ... wow ... just ... wow.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Did Tiger NM today for body seals.

BLM/RDM (no /BRD leveled)
NIN/DNC (was just helping)
WHM/SCH (me)
THF/DNC
DNC/NIN (don't ask he had a pop set)

Out of four NM pops here are the results.
NM #1: Yellow Proced, 2 seals dropped
NM #2: Not Proced, 0 seals dropped (nothing dropped)
NM #3: Yellow Proced, 4 seals dropped
NM #4: Yellow Proced, 3 seals dropped

THF had Relic +2 hands, Emp +2 feet and TK in off hand, would proc to at least TH8 on every fight.

I'd say procing yellow was pretty damn important, I'd even say not procing yellow would be a complete waste of time.

If you absolutely HAD to go "duo" then THF/NIN + BLM/WHM or BLM/SCH period, end of story. During that entire fight I didn't have to cast more then a Cure III. At 99 a THF has such high evasion and evasion gear that they would rarely even be hit, with minimal healing they could easily kill any NM while also having a large chance at getting a yellow proc. If we're talking blue then it depends if it's a drive by killing (Loki's ect..) or a poped NM (Ocelot ect..). If it's drive by the just throw TH at it until it drops, if you get luck you can proc it. If it's a planned pop, why in the hell would you not plan out to have the appropriate procing jobs available prior to poping it. You would seriously throw away an EE, Lacovia or Chloris pop on the low ball chance you happen to get the R/EX drop anyway? I've done more Chloris's then I ever want to remember, something like 300+ now, those hands have a low drop rate without blue proc. Lacovie is stingy as hell on that belt without blue proc, heck he's stingy even with blue proc. That's just with the Tahrongi zone NMs, there are still 8 other zones and the Shinyru fight.

So please tell the entire forum how you'd like to throw away you and your partners pop sets just so you can prove how great embrava is on SCH.

In the entire time I've been doing abyssea, I've never once heard SCH being asked for. My LS's resident SCH is asked to come on BLM or MNK constantly to events. SCH ... overshadowing WHM ... wow ... just ... wow.

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Leaving aside the issue that

1) whoever needed seals wasted the time of anyone who didn't by dragging them along to kill something they could have handled without them,

2) that person/people could have just gone out and gotten kills in without waiting up for other people for omg procs and even waiting a half an hour means a round of kills they didn't get on account of waiting,

3) just like you don't pay $13 for other people to tell you how to play red mage, I don't pay $13 a month to stand around Port Jeuno shouting/beg my LS mates for handjobs, and

4) the majority of time anybody spends in Abyssea these days is spent making Emp weapons for which procs other than red are irrelevant,

your group wouldn't have been better off with you as a SCH/RDM rather than WHM/SCH because ___

Wth is being argued here again? If you can shout and make a group for seals you do that, if you can't you go with w/e you can and get seals the best way you can. Is it going to take longer? Of course it is, you're being sub-optimal about it, but going in and trying for some seals is still better than sitting around doing nothing, provided you're not lazy.

Body seal NMs just suck anyway. I got more seals spamming the quest than that tiger (obviously some jobs have terribad quests).

Going Rdm for seal farming means you were foregoing optimal proc conditions in the first place, it has the exact same grellow procs as Sch and you probably should have just brought a Blm.