Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Deadvinta

I dunno. Scholar gets a pretty nice mythic...


http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tupsimati_(85)

Combining this with Atma bonuses.

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no no no no no no

no

DD jobs 'ultimate weapons' help them do what a DD is suppose to do, deal damage with an equipped weapon and SE has the right idea with those weapons.

I don't mind that the mage weapons have dd properties but it annoys me that most of them fail at bolstering the job's intended purpose. I find it a bit ridiculous that anyone tries to justify the majority of these weapons as anything but a failure. Melee mages will very rarely have a place in any real end game content and these weapons are simply toys for those who want to play around.

I'd really like to know the reasoning behind SE's move on making these weapons like this.

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I'd really like to know the reasoning behind SE's move on making these weapons like this.

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I'd dare say not a single one at SE plays mage jobs. (Possible BLM). I also suspect they do not listen at all to their testers. Because I doubt any testers would let half the content SE adds through quality check.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I'd dare say not a single one at SE plays mage jobs. (Possible BLM). I also suspect they do not listen at all to their testers. Because I doubt any testers would let half the content SE adds through quality check.

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Which is why they are having a testing server thats going to open soon.

Why pay for testers when you can have the playerbase do it for free

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I don't mind that the mage weapons have dd properties but it annoys me that most of them fail at bolstering the job's intended purpose.

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How do two weapons that both give you practically unlimited MP for your avatars on SMN fail at bolstering the job's "intended" purpose? And who are you to decide what a job is "intended" for? Many jobs today are doing things they weren't specifically built to do. Any job is "intended' to do whatever it is capable of doing. Going out of your way to find new ways of using a job is one of the things that makes playing fun.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

How do two weapons that both give you practically unlimited MP for your avatars on SMN fail at bolstering the job's "intended" purpose? And who are you to decide what a job is "intended" for? Many jobs today are doing things they weren't specifically built to do. Any job is "intended' to do whatever it is capable of doing. Going out of your way to find new ways of using a job is one of the things that makes playing fun.

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Believe it or not, but some people think that damage only consists of Weapon Skills.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Believe it or not, but some people think that damage only consists of Weapon Skills.

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People who think that damage only consists of Blood Pact: Rage are in this thread.

Assuming I was rich in FFXI - I have Gil but not Uncle Scrooge Gil - I'd upgrade a Claustrum and idle in towns whenever possible. I'd stay logged in 24/7 and probably be AFK 20/7. I'd openly flaunt my big golden staff, silently taunting all the poor melees with FFXI's most magnificent waste of Dynamis currency.

Everyone would know I did it on a whim. For fun. They'll know aaaaaall that currency could have built a real weapon or properly geared up many of those full-Aurore-beggar-things that clog up Port Jeuno.

But no.

If I had 'f**k you' amounts of Gil, I'd be sure to properly accessorize myself with the one piece of equipment that says that exact thing.

I'd rock a Claustrum, and my Claustrum's mere existence would scream 'f**k off, plebe!'

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Originally Posted by Dallas

People who think that damage only consists of Blood Pact: Rage are in this thread.

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People who think they are the world's greatest gift are in this thread also. I just quoted one of them.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

How do two weapons that both give you practically unlimited MP for your avatars on SMN fail at bolstering the job's "intended" purpose? And who are you to decide what a job is "intended" for? Many jobs today are doing things they weren't specifically built to do. Any job is "intended' to do whatever it is capable of doing. Going out of your way to find new ways of using a job is one of the things that makes playing fun.

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I'm not limiting my statement to summoner. How you've decided to play summoner makes those specific weapons plenty nice for you. How you want to play the job and what your opinion of what is 'intended' is also your own to do with whatever you want. I'm just fine by innovation and taking a job that isn't suppose to do something and making it do it but making the 'best weapon in the game" a situational tool for only those who play the job in a flexible manner is questionable at best. They can feel free to keep those aspects if they want but it'd be nice to add something more practical for the jobs. You can't always melee so that benefit is lost on many things, particularly the ones that are most important.

I read the thread so I understand that you see value to these weapons but the majority of the people I've spoken to get little use outside of soloing for a huge amount of effort.

Perhaps it's just me but for my blu, I wear my Almace almost all the time. It is only the situational times that I ever take it off. I wish my mage jobs got something of similar utility and value... You aren't going to see people say: "Oh look a Hvergelmir smn! Lets get them!"

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I'm not limiting my statement to summoner. How you've decided to play summoner makes those specific weapons plenty nice for you.

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Almost no weapon is universally useful for every job that can equip it. As long as it's useful to someone, that's all that matters.

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You aren't going to see people say: "Oh look a Hvergelmir smn! Lets get them!"

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I don't see anyone say "oh look a <insert empyrean weapon here> <insert job here>! let's get them! It doesn't automatically mean that's a good person to have, no matter which weapon it is.

If you're going to invite someone or not on the basis of if they have an empy weapon or not, then you're stupid.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Almost no weapon is universally useful for every job that can equip it. As long as it's useful to someone, that's all that matters.

I don't see anyone say "oh look a <insert empyrean weapon here> <insert job here>! let's get them! It doesn't automatically mean that's a good person to have, no matter which weapon it is.

If you're going to invite someone or not on the basis of if they have an empy weapon or not, then you're stupid.

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I never said it had to be universal but it's just funny that for most any dd it's always going to be a full time or near full time gear and yet mages only get a couple uses if that. And just being useful to anyone does not warrant a spot as an empy much less a relic or mythic. These weapons should be top tier and at the very least formidable for multiple purposes of a job.

If you have something else to go off such as past experience with the player or someone knows them then sure but if you're doing some random event or shout group and you have the option of inviting a blu with an almace or a blu with dual mp sticks is that not going to tip the decision? I'm not saying they are going to see some job and go oh hey let's recruit that person to our ls, simply that given someone has good equipment that will certainly tip the scales. An empy doesn't make a person good but anyone who is serious about a job will have it decently geared. So what exactly do you go off of?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I don't see anyone say "oh look a <insert empyrean weapon here> <insert job here>! let's get them! It doesn't automatically mean that's a good person to have, no matter which weapon it is.

If you're going to invite someone or not on the basis of if they have an empy weapon or not, then you're stupid.

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It's really hard to suck in Abyssea with Ukko's Fury and aftermath. I'm sure some people still manage it, but if they have Ukon then they should at least be a pretty safe bet.

It's easy to suck on Summoner even with Empyrean, but the Empyrean is such a marginal upgrade that getting it shows dedication to the job. Unfortunately, a lot of people are very dedicated to jobs they're horrible at. For instance, every example I know of where someone has completed Claustrum.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

People who think that damage only consists of Blood Pact: Rage are in this thread.

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People who think that laughable melee is the best and only way to contribute to a group are in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

SMN has B skill which is plenty good enough, it's second only to PLD and tied with MNK. I have full strength merits, full staff merits, appropriate gear, etc. I can assure you that coupled with garuda using hastega and predator claws, it is damage that keeps up with anyone else. The only real problem with staff is the WS- If you calculate the base DPS (ratio of damage to delay converted to seconds) the relic/mythic/empyrean staves are right up there with all the other ones. They are not inferior weapons, it is just difficult for the average person to make use of them. That is fine though- They're not for the average person, they're for dedicated specialists who think outside the box.

No tp loss on weapon switching would be nice and allow BLM and SMN to actually make use of Occult Acumen; but this would probably be overpowered for other jobs. Occult accumen + Adloquium makes hverglmir sort of interesting for SCH to use with a maximum magic damage atma set instead of including an atma with refresh. It's not really better or worse than any other method, but it can be fun and different.

Thats because WHM's main weapon is club, not staff. And Yagrush (sp?) is awesome and the most commonly obtained mythic in the game.

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Ok so I have read into your posts.. Your playstyle is unique, and I welcome that. (so not meaning to troll if this sounds like I am about to) >

Parse any of my melee jobs (use all the ws's you like - I won't even ws for you) vs. your staff (buffing yourself as much as you like) and compare the damage. Even add garuda's predator claws in.. I can guarentee you, any equally-geared / skilled melee job as your smn & garuda combo - the melee will still out-parse you.

Mages weren't designed for melee damage, and although your playstyle is unique and semi-unheard of these days (and as I say I welcome it) - I very much doubt you would out-damage a melee job.

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Mages weren't designed for melee damage, and although your playstyle is unique and semi-unheard of these days (and as I say I welcome it) - I very much doubt you would out-damage a melee job.

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That's not the goal. The goal is simply to broaden our capabilities, not win an e-peen contest. That being said, after putting the requisite effort into it, it works quite well and allows the SMN to kill things more quickly when they are not in danger.

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Parse any of my melee jobs (use all the ws's you like - I won't even ws for you) vs. your staff (buffing yourself as much as you like) and compare the damage. Even add garuda's predator claws in.. I can guarentee you, any equally-geared / skilled melee job as your smn & garuda combo - the melee will still out-parse you.

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If the SMN is smart, he'll claim a naked contest and while the melee is equally equipped (naked) you just parse the hell out of them. Though the claim "equally geared" is pretty rough since to match a SMNs gear choices, a melee would have to wear level 20 armors. I'm assuming you just mean "If a SMN has the best -perpetuation armor, and the melee the best STR, acc, attack, haste armor, the melee will win" which is just duh!

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That's not the goal. The goal is simply to broaden our capabilities, not win an e-peen contest. That being said, after putting the requisite effort into it, it works quite well and allows the SMN to kill things more quickly when they are not in danger.

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Now if only Dallas could realize that.

My only beef with Emp Staff was (emphasis on the was) lack of perp gear to keep avatars out.

Alhanelem made me realize that with that WS, you can keep your avatars out indefinably and you can keep BPs and everything going. I know that Dallas kindof said the same thing, but in a more arrogant than not.

Emp Staff is great in party settings. Can do decent damage and as long as you are able to survive, can outparse gimp DDs. Solo playstyle, I don't think that it would work at all.

I'm glad that Alhanelem got his staff. Good for him!

I really should point out that even without meleeing, a perp staff is really not that important these days, once you have the full empyrean set. There is enough perp and refresh out there that you now have choices of where to get your perp cost down, or your MP up. If you're BP-releasing, using favor, or keeping pets up only for a short time, you don't have to have every bit of perp gear to manage your MP well.

SMN used to have very few gear choices to make at all. Now, there's a lot more to choose from and a lot more methods of playing available. SMN's gear situation has never been better- it just needs some tweaking and adjustments to better compete with other jobs in general situations.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I really should point out that even without meleeing, a perp staff is really not that important these days, once you have the full empyrean set. There is enough perp and refresh out there that you now have choices of where to get your perp cost down, or your MP up. If you're BP-releasing, using favor, or keeping pets up only for a short time, you don't have to have every bit of perp gear to manage your MP well.

SMN used to have very few gear choices to make at all. Now, there's a lot more to choose from and a lot more methods of playing available. SMN's gear situation has never been better- it just needs some tweaking and adjustments to better compete with other jobs in general situations.

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Well, with a full emp +2 gear, with either a fay staff (with -3 perp) or Bahamut's Staff and Evoker's Ring, you can have +1 perp cost (meaning you have +1 mp per tick when avatars are out for those of you guys who don't know) on all avatars outside of day/weather bonuses that gloves give (-1 perp on Caller's Pendant too). That is the best any SMN can get actually. With -2 perp more, can get as much as +3 "Refresh" from gear/traits and that would be the absolute best. Thats just for avatar though, doesn't really affect the player at all except mp usage.

What SE can do that would make us very close (or closer) to actual DDs now would be to reduce BP timers to 30 seconds (either making it so you can't do more than 2 BPs per minute like we are doing, but giving us the choice in WHICH two BPs we want to do, or making it a flat rate of 30 seconds per BPs) and that would give us a shot at being actual DDs. It would make it possible to compete with WARs and NINs now. That is our biggest issue right this minute.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Well, with a full emp +2 gear, with either a fay staff (with -3 perp) or Bahamut's Staff and Evoker's Ring, you can have +1 perp cost (meaning you have +1 mp per tick when avatars are out for those of you guys who don't know) on all avatars outside of day/weather bonuses that gloves give (-1 perp on Caller's Pendant too). That is the best any SMN can get actually. With -2 perp more, can get as much as +3 "Refresh" from gear/traits and that would be the absolute best. Thats just for avatar though, doesn't really affect the player at all except mp usage.

What SE can do that would make us very close (or closer) to actual DDs now would be to reduce BP timers to 30 seconds (either making it so you can't do more than 2 BPs per minute like we are doing, but giving us the choice in WHICH two BPs we want to do, or making it a flat rate of 30 seconds per BPs) and that would give us a shot at being actual DDs. It would make it possible to compete with WARs and NINs now. That is our biggest issue right this minute.

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I'm pretty sure avatar perpetuation doesnt go below 1. If you're getting 1mp/tic its probably just from your auto refresh II trait (1 to cancel out that last point of perpetuation, and another to give you the 1mp/tic)

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Originally Posted by Raksha

I'm pretty sure avatar perpetuation doesnt go below 1. If you're getting 1mp/tic its probably just from your auto refresh II trait (1 to cancel out that last point of perpetuation, and another to give you the 1mp/tic)

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You forgot to include the +2 refresh from Caller's Horn +2....

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Originally Posted by Korpg

You forgot to include the +2 refresh from Caller's Horn +2....

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Yeah i wasn't considering refresh from gear, since it sounded like you were getting 'refresh' from just -perpetuation.

EDIT: yeah sorry must've glossed over the 'full emp +2' part.

My bad.

If you are using physical blood pacts and need to save more MP to get your full refresh potential, you can easily use avatar's favor just for the perp - and it has a minimal effect on physical BPs. The effect on magic BPs is much more significant, on the other hand...

LOL @ perp staves with full +2 gear. "It's a pretty blue box, so I have to wear it!" Avatars are free without any weapon, if you know how to identify macro gear.

Congratulations, your 20mp/minute will match the MP recovery of a single 300% Myrkr in approximately a hour. Utility!

You know, if you trimmed the attitude off your posts, people might take you a little more seriously...

The particular person bragging about 1mp refresh outside of Abyssea deserves what he gets, and I'm more than happy to give. I am a generous leader.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

LOL @ perp staves with full +2 gear. "It's a pretty blue box, so I have to wear it!" Avatars are free without any weapon, if you know how to identify macro gear.

Congratulations, your 20mp/minute will match the MP recovery of a single 300% Myrkr in approximately a hour. Utility!

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Are you serious? Really I'm starting to think your just a troll. wearing a perp/refresh set is A LITTLE more effienct than 20mp a minute if you wear enough - perp to just negate it your saving 12 mp per tick which is 240MP per minute but seeing as how alot of people have more than enough - perp now chances are there'll be refresh in there too. For myself, and I'm still working on this I get 2 per tick back on Garuda which is 40mp per minute which means thats 280MP a minute I save. Currently trying for Caller's Horn +2 Moonshade earring and Oneiros Grip Which will mean I'll get 5 per tick back on garuda saving a potential 340mp per minute which is "slightly" more than 20mp per minute you seem to think.

By all means melee to maintain avatars but don't skew the numbers in it's favor to make yourself seem right. I wouldn't party with a melee SMN just like I would avoid a melee SCH, BLM etc. but to each thier own, if you like this style and have people in your group willing to let you why not. But don't pretend melee does nothing but add to SMN, sure it adds a little damage but removes alot of our flexiblility and increases danger to the SMN. It can maintain an avatar indefinitely but so will a good perp/refresh set.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

The particular person bragging about 1mp refresh outside of Abyssea deserves what he gets, and I'm more than happy to give. I am a generous leader.

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LOL at leader

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Originally Posted by Zumi

SE could actually learn from WoW on this one.

For example Blizzard is making a new Legendary staff for casters in their upcoming patch, the weapon is by far the best for any caster and there is a long quest and farming raids to get it, but in the end they have the best weapon they can get for the current patch and will let them do the most damage with their spells.

So why can't BLM/SMN/SCH/WHM get actual empyeran staffs and club that actually let them perform the best at what they do best which is casting spells?

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The new caster legendary is simply following the example of Atiesh (though there were four versions of Atiesh, one for each caster class).

That being said, I agree that the empy's should eclipse the elemental and potency staves bar none. Part of me thinks they want to support meleeing for whatever reason, though.

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I wouldn't party with a melee SMN just like I would avoid a melee SCH, BLM etc. but to each thier own

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I hope you wouldn't party with any summoner at all then, because being a melee SMN doesn't prevent you from using your support abilities (in fact, it encourages it), and allows you to do more damage than you could otherwise- BP and release is terrible, spamming crappy cures when other jobs can do better is terrible. Unless you are putting yourself or someone else in serious jepoardy, this setup benefits everyone. SMN is useful to have. The melee strategy expands on its capabilities, allowing it to do more unless the situation prohibits it. And those situations do exist- I'm not about to tell you you can do it on everything. But where it can be done, it works very well. So be a little more open minded.

A SMN meleeing is totally different from a SCH meleeing. SCH has no pet doing damage with it, has to stop attacking to cast spells with lengthy cast times, and has the worst skill in its highest weapon of any job. A SCH also has the most powerful DoT spells in the game- it doesn't need to add more to its DoT.

What Zumi fails to mention about WoW is that many wands and staves in WoW deal respectable, ranged elemental (not physical) damage. It's usually not the best thing you can do, but you can often obtain wands that inflict a different damage type than you are usually capable of.

BOTTOM LINE: Open your bleepin' minds, think outside the box, and realize your potential, no matter what you're playing!

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crappy cures

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Someone is too preoccupied with LOOKING OUTSIDE THE BOX to look back in it and see what you're capable of.

Capable of tossing crappy cures to support someone tossing real ones. Yeah, I know we're capable of that. But so isn't anyone else who subs WHM. It helps, mind you, but it shouldn't be seen as a defining part of the job, since it's not actually part of the job. This is a PROBLEM, not a good thing that should be encouraged. If a cure needs giving, I'm more than happy to give it. I'm just not going to go in there with it being my primary role, because other people, whom you almost always have with you, will do it better. If there's no other choice, it works in a pinch, but having cures from WHM sub is hardly SMN's greatest strength.

So no, i'm not too busy "looking outside the box" to know what it is capable of inside of it. Someone instead is too busy ignoring the outside of the box to realize the box has an outside.

Summoner is the only job aside from WHM that can cap cure potency.

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Originally Posted by Azagthoth

Summoner is the only job aside from WHM that can cap cure potency.

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I count 49%
22 Surayas
14 facio
5 roundel
3 fylga+1
5 serpentes set

Roundel alone is nearing 10mil with the decline of all Campaign.

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Originally Posted by Azagthoth

Summoner is the only job aside from WHM that can cap cure potency.

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great. So I can cure 5xx HP instead of <400 with cure IV, where it still takes like 6 cures to bring a dying MNK back to full health in abyssea. Or I could go scholar and cure IV for more than that with strategems, or I could use WHM and cure way more than that even without cure potency gear. And don't you dare bring max MP into this. With Minikin, anyone can cure forever in abyssea.

For the same reason you can argue against the melee strategy, I can argue against the curing strategy- Just because gear exists, that doesn't mean you should or have to do it.

There are many possibilities for summoner. Curing is one, even though I don't agree with it on a personal level because the curing comes basically entirely from the subjob and not native abilities. What other job in the game plays their subjob more than the main they have the subjob on? I can't discount that it can be put to good use, I just consider it far from the most ideal use. Melee DDing is another. Pet kiting is another. Support buffing is another. SMN can do many things, and you should not attack or rule out any one of them.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Roundel alone is nearing 10mil with the decline of all Campaign.

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Sold mine recently as I expect the price to drop as more jobs are able to solo the fight.

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

Sold mine recently as I expect the price to drop as more jobs are able to solo the fight.

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Not really about soloing the fight, but rather the fight's access. No one seems to EVER do Campaign, other than the rare need for a rose strap, and that's sandy.

You can't even enter the fight on Asura, and that's why the price is going up. That and you need it to cap cure potency while using +2 body on WHM, for optimal curing output.

Augmented Zenith Pumps + Augur's Gloves.

Inside Abyssea: There are quite a number of mobs you can kill with just /WHM healing support. For mobs that you need a white mage to Cure you're not going to bring a melee SMN + WHM -- you're going to bring a MNK, WAR, NIN, etc, and a WHM + procs.

Outisde Abyssea: Cure IV will be more helpful. On higher level NMs you'll need to be more careful about feeding them TP, because you'll have normal HP and even the tanks won't have the AGI TP reduction they were getting in Abyssea.

Summoner is decent for meleeing garbage mobs. End of discussion.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

LOL @ perp staves with full +2 gear. "It's a pretty blue box, so I have to wear it!" Avatars are free without any weapon, if you know how to identify macro gear.

Congratulations, your 20mp/minute will match the MP recovery of a single 300% Myrkr in approximately a hour. Utility!

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How long would it take for you to get enough TP to do a decent Myrkr? Oh yeah, your mp wouldn't last long enough to keep that avatar out while you are wiffing at EP mobs with your pathetic DD skill. While we are at it, not only will you lose all your mp before you get your 300% TP, but once the avatar leaves you, all of the sudden the you will die (if you aren't already dead beforehand that is) because there is nothing keeping the mob off of you.

But then again, you will probably spout some nonsense like "But I always get in a group of people who like me for who I am, even though I'm a complete jerk to them all 100% of the time" or something to that effect.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

The particular person bragging about 1mp refresh outside of Abyssea deserves what he gets, and I'm more than happy to give. I am a generous leader.

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Better to have 1 mp per tick back (4 with refresh on, 11 in abyssea) and can keep avatars out forever with no risk to me than to have a cost of 14 mp per tick to keep an avatar out and have to risk getting killed just to try to get mp to sustain the avatar, much less using blood pacts. But only in abyssea. Outside of abyssea you got no chance at all. Neither can you solo anything at all.

At least Al doesn't limit himself to one type of Summoner.