If you decide to bring w/e job or kill speed doesn't matter, then go ahead bring w/e job you have. I'm merely correcting Omny's statement about stacking multiple GEO buffs yielding better result. My personal experience is that using COR+GEO tend to have significantly faster kill speed than GEO+GEO or GEO+ another DD. And I believe it's a useful info to know for those who actually care about the kill speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
Also just FYI to those who think "it doesn't matter what job you use", yesterday I was in an ambu pt with 2 GEO, each fight takes 5.5~6.5 min without COR. As soon as I switch to COR we're getting 2 min win including 1 min buff time, we didn't change DD job nor member in the pt. IMO a 60%+ reduction in clear time by adding additional COR buff is not as irrelevant as you claim.
Alternatively you can have GEO entrust precision and have BLU cap haste themselves, or switch sam roll to hunters to cap hit rate and still get way more attack than GEO(fury/frailty)+GEO(precision/haste or DEX) setup. Even though GEO is consider the No.1 buff job, there's no need to pop on the forum and scream "GEO GEO GEOOOOOO let's invite more GEOs! More GEO the better" when GEO+COR often yield better result.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
Also I've done pretty much every content that favors melee setup, I can't think of anything that I'd need 3 GEO in pt with 2 of them doing defensive bubbles atm. Most things I can think of uses 2 GEO max, with 1 GEO doing defensive bubbles and another one doing DD bubbles. Just because GEO is nice, doesn't mean you need invite THAT many GEOs and promote 3+ GEO setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
Game/Job balance suggestions
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07-22-2016, 04:50 PMAfania
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07-22-2016, 06:15 PMZeldar
3 geos CAN be nice on higher tier mobs with mixed setups. Give the mob eva-. attk- and mdef- or def- , 1 party may be rng and need fury, while 2nd party could be all blms and want MACC+ MAB, even a 3rd party that could use ACC+or ATTK+. There are definately USES for 3 geo, but that doesn't discount what COR and BRD bring to the table.
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07-22-2016, 06:24 PMAfaniaI'm pretty sure he isn't promoting 3 GEO in a mixed setup either :p because acc/-eva/+att/-def/vex/attune/barrier/wilt is clearly for melee jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldar
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07-22-2016, 06:46 PMOmnysValefor
I'm not denying that in purely moar-firepower situations with properly geared players, mixing buff-jobs works better because SE deliberately designed it so same-buffs don't stack (wisely so). There's just not a lot of pure-firepower situations. A lot of times you need or want focus/languor or you want vex/attune; sometimes fade/fend or barrier/wilt.
Meh, I just got a 5 man VD ambuscade (we were helping my awful cor-mule grind towards last month's ambuscade set) as Idris/thf/thf/warrior-tank/whm/terrible cor mule and we were doing 2 minute fight-time. As I know you know, it depends a great deal on the strength of the players in the party. I can absolutely promise you that another geo, a bard, another DD, anything would have been better in that slot and would have brought us down to to 1 - 1.5m fight time.Quote:
Also just FYI to those who think "it doesn't matter what job you use", yesterday I was in an ambu pt with 2 GEO, each fight takes 5.5~6.5 min without COR. As soon as I switch to COR we're getting 2 min win including 1 min buff time, we didn't change DD job nor member in the pt. IMO a 60%+ reduction in clear time by adding additional COR buff is not as irrelevant as you claim.
It sounds like your cor was making up for a deficiency in some of your members' gear (and hey, that's often what buffers do, no insult to anyone intended!)
But Ambuscade isn't really the content we measure by. -
07-23-2016, 01:43 AMAfaniaBefore you criticize other's gear and make assumptions about a pt you don't know, I suggest it's better to look at things from bigger perspective instead of just jump in and make assumptions about other's gears. 5~6 min kill is purely setup issue(I didn't make the pt), a pt with DNC+BLU, NQ GEO x2 and no COR simply aren't going to kill as fast as WAR, double THF, idris GEO and COR, assuming everyone has same level of gears. Idris GEO+COR is just better buff choice than NQ GEO x2 even if COR is roll only. WAR THF THF just has more fire power than DNC+BLU. After all WAR can use piercing+stardiver, THF x2 can drop the NM HP down real quick with Sneak attack. BLU just can't do any of these things. It's basically 3 piercing DD v.s just 1? No amount of legendary weapon and HQ abj can make up the power of having COR AND 2 extra piercing DD in pt.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
Basically you just come in and show off with a near perfect setup with every single right job including GEO+COR then proceed to claim you have fast kills. Thanks for proving my point that GEO+COR>GEO+GEO.
I'll just show you by writing down the number based on bg-wiki data. If any of the number are wrong feel free to point out. A "terrible COR" can still roll, and no other 2nd GEO, BRD, or another DD can make up the power of chaos roll/dia 4 unless you are capping pdif with your idris GEO alone.
Just FYI, if you "prioritize" chaos roll and use roll potency ring plus every JA for chaos roll, the average buff potency of chaos roll would be roughly 47% attack boost. Unless you use RDM in pt, COR provides additional 10% def- from light shot. A 47% attack boost and 10% def- is slightly better than dunna Fury, which is also 47% attack boost AFAIK. If you need minor acc buffs, GEO(fury/frailty)+ COR(hunter/chaos) still provides much, MUCH more attack than GEO(fury/frailty)+GEO(precision/whatever). Since it's Fury/failty v.s fury/failty+chaos roll+dia 4.
If you need 2 acc buffs, NQ GEO(precision/frailty)+ roll only COR(hunter/chaos) also beats NQ GEO(fury/frailty)+ NQ GEO(precision/torpor). Since both setup uses 2 buff slot for accuracy, both setup uses frailty, but COR+GEO setup has a little bit extra defense down while attack boost buffs are the same. It's basically 47% attack+ 10% defense down v.s 47% attack only. Note that precision+torpor probably provide a bit more hit rate than avg hunter+precision. But most DD probably caps hit rate with just precision+hunter unless they're really, really behind on gears. In that case I don't see COR+GEO behind GEO+GEO.
Although Idris fury is more potent which is 61% attack boost, but I think at that point you need to compare Idris GEO v.s a COR that can DD in ambuscade. In that case it's 61% attack boost v.s 47% attack boost, 10% defense down and 25k last stand spam. Which I highly doubt GEO+COR is behind. Not to mention the highest chaos roll obtainable is 67% attack boost, with a little bit more luck COR buff has a chance to outperform idris Fury.
In the end I just don't see GEO+COR setup being inferior to GEO+GEO or GEO+DD in any way. Idk why you keep popping on these forums, continue to advocate GEO+GEO or GEO+DD over and over, with pretty much zero math nor personal experience. The only personal experience you provide is 2 min run with COR in pt(again, thanks for proving my point). The only thing you said so far is "I'm pretty sure we'll do better with GEO+GEO or GEO+DD instead of GEO+COR I promise!". How does GEO+DD do better if that DD doesn't provide any buffs to help your THF drop that big fat SA rudras to kill boss before adds pop? Love how community pretend COR buff doesn't do anything to dps. -
07-23-2016, 02:10 AMAfaniaAlso If you're saying "only gimp geared DD needs buffs", feel free to talk to those guys on FFXIAH.com WAR and DRK forum. There's one person on WAR and DRK forum with AG weapons, 5/5 HQ abj and very good sets, who still brings COR for buffs to melee content. Buff job isn't for gimp DDs only, it works for everyone and pdif is equally hard to cap regardless of your gears.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
Also if you want to play the "lolambuscade" card, I have done every single melee-able NM with melee setup, including reisen T3s, escha gods and so on. Feel free to come up with situation/setup/math to prove that GEO+GEO or GEO+DD is a better choice. Instead of just pop on the forum and keep screaming GEO GEO GEOOOO! Or Throw more DDs at it!!! -
07-23-2016, 03:29 AMOmnysValeforI was saying it was a terrible cor mule (mine) and that literally anything would have made us faster (Another geo, a bard, a real cor, another DD, probably something not piercing since the thieves had the bird down).Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
You actually have no idea what my personal experience is, nor do I yours, beyond what we've discussed here. I already admitted that stacking one type of firepower, mixing buffers only makes sense but real battles beyond spambuscade, you generally want more than pure increase to damage. You might need more acc or something defensive/something to keep your party unenfeebled.Quote:
In the end I just don't see GEO+COR setup being inferior to GEO+GEO or GEO+DD in any way. Idk why you keep popping on these forums, continue to advocate GEO+GEO or GEO+DD over and over, with pretty much zero math nor personal experience.
And since you keep wanting the boil this down to Ambuscade: GEO is ready immediately. Corsair has prep time.
I didn't even imply buffs were for "gimps" only. Offensive buffs are typically critical in group-first clears (group-second, group-fifth, they're useful for quite a while. I'm sure you outgear t2 Rei--and beyond--but you take buffers I'm sure, same as I do) and always useful. Progressing through a tier, a group might find accuracy buffs not as potent but of course the useful attack/-defense buffs will last longer and past that, there's always DoT buffs (haste, DA, etc). It just seems that if a cor so dramatically increased your kill speed, it sounds like the group needed the additional buffer.Quote:
Also If you're saying "only gimp geared DD needs buffs", feel free to talk to those guys on FFXIAH.com WAR and DRK forum. There's one person on WAR and DRK forum with AG weapons, 5/5 HQ abj and very good sets, who still brings COR for buffs to melee content. Buff job isn't for gimp DDs only, it works for everyone and pdif is equally hard to cap regardless of your gears.
Also if you want to play the "lolambuscade" card, I have done every single melee-able NM with melee setup, including reisen T3s, escha gods and so on. Feel free to come up with situation/setup/math to prove that GEO+GEO or GEO+DD is a better choice. Instead of just pop on the forum and keep screaming GEO GEO GEOOOO! Or Throw more DDs at it!!!
As for "throw more DDs at it", when have I said that? I prefer lowman (meh, dead server). I actually think that it's way too easy to have too many DDs because melee get TP so fast and mages stay full. We're in 2016 operating on 2008 mechanics. -
07-23-2016, 10:46 AMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
Omnys, I think there's no point to continue this discussion anymore. I just went through 3 pages of math demonstrating how a "terrible" COR mule with nothing except relic hat/roll ring would add more DPS to the pt than a 2nd dunna GEO, I even went on and calculated the average Chaos roll number with JA for you. But it seems that you're dead set with the "GEO is the best choice" mind set that no amount of math and discussion can change your mind.
I didn't, that's why I didn't make any assumption about your pt DD gear level, unlike you just make assumption about my pt DDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
Again, I went through 3 pages of math including situations that you're using acc buffs to show that COR+GEO>GEO+GEO. But you just continue with usual "GEO+GEO>GEO+COR just because" argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
And yes, I already heard your argument about vex/attunement, and I already acknowledged the fact that it's required on some NM in my very first post. There's no need to keep using the "but we need defensive bubbles" argument as I didn't argue against you about the usefulness of defensive bubbles.
Basically this is the argument in past 3 pages:
Omnys: GEO is so nice we should use 2~3 of them, because DD buffs are potent and we need defensive bubbles.
Afania: GEO+COR provides more attack than GEO+GEO if you don't need acc nor vex/attunement.
Omnys: GEO is so nice and we should use 2~3 of them because DD buffs are potent and we need defensive bubbles.
Afania: GEO+COR still provide more DPS increase when you need acc. *went on and shows math and numbers*.
Omnys: GEO is so nice and we should use 2~3 of them because DD buffs are potent and we need defensive bubbles.
Afania: Even when you need defensive bubbles, GEO GEO COR is still better choice than GEO GEO GEO.
Omnys: GEO is so nice and we should use 2~3 of them because DD buffs are potent and we need defensive bubbles.
I feel like a broken record repeating the same thing over and over, while you also repeating the same thing over and over.
There are ways to lower the prep time in ambuscade. Crooked card> chaos roll, if you land on No.6 don't double up, instead use snake eye and get No.7. Random deal and do crooked card SAM roll immediately. The key to finish 2 rolls fast is not to double up on 6 and use random deal after 1st roll so you can use 2nd roll immediately. Reset random deal after each fight at moogle when waiting for your turn to get in.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
I usually finish my 1st roll while WHM do pro/shell, finish 2nd roll while WHM do bar+boost spells. I finish my rolls about the same time as everyone else unless I get something like 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 which rarely happens.
I didn't insist this discussion should be ambuscade only. I've done melee setup in many, many content that favors melee setup, and I can't think of one single NM that favors GEO GEO GEO over GEO GEO COR even when you need defensive bubbles. Feel free to give me an example if you have it though, I may be missing something.
The reason why I'm so vocal here about chaos roll is because I feel the community often underestimate the impact of capping pdif with more attack buffs since a lot of people out there actually ask for DA/SAM roll over chaos roll, when chaos roll provide much, much greater DPS increase than every other COR DD roll barring hunter for acc. Ever since one of the update pushes pdif cap higher, the ceiling of WS went up as you stack attack buffs, on the same time it's also very hard to hit that ceiling. That means a fully buffed WS will hit a lot harder than low buff WS, unless you're BLU using CDC.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
The ambuscade pt I was in, the DNC lead claimed that he can zerg the NM from 75% with his WS before adds pop with his 55k WSs. But he didn't use a COR in pt. After 1~2 runs he was like "why my WS isn't hitting 55k like last run and we kill so slow". His friend reminded him that last run he had COR buffs, so I changed to COR and gave him chaos roll, he's finally happy with his WS dmg again.
With how ambuscade works, the kill speed difference between 0 sets of add and 1 is huge, and there's also a huge kill speed difference between 2 sets of adds and 3 sets. Since people needs to switch target to adds and maybe even change weapon/reset TP to kill adds.
In other words, if you can hit certain level of WS dmg in ambuscade and zerg the NM before TP moves, you get less adds and you kill a lot faster than low WS avg. The "no adds pop" 15 sec zerg video on youtube was done with super buffed high dmg WS from multiple DD, with massive attack buffs and TP bonus from savagery warcry. Without all these buffs their kill speed aren't going to be anywhere close to 15 sec since they'd have to deal with adds.
This has nothing to do with gears, no amount of elite gears can generate that much attack like chaos roll/dia 4 does.
I also have to point out, in every single COR v.s GEO discussion we see on forums, a lot of the chaos roll potency number being used are below real chaos roll potency with JA up. In fact I just noticed my previous calculation was wrong as well, avg chaos roll potency is 49% attack boost, not 47%. That makes chaos roll more potent than dunna indi fury.
Tl;dr, Your friend may tell you GEO>COR, COR buff suck and doesn't make a difference because that's what forum people said. But this is just not true. Like you said earlier, FFXI is about math, math and more math. There are certain setup that works more effectively than another because that's how the game calculate numbers.
I was referring to your statement of "we could have kill faster with a DD instead of my COR mule"Quote:
As for "throw more DDs at it", when have I said that? I prefer lowman (meh, dead server). I actually think that it's way too easy to have too many DDs because melee get TP so fast and mages stay full. We're in 2016 operating on 2008 mechanics.
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07-29-2016, 02:26 AMCamate
Greetings,
While briefly mentioned during the AMA the other day, and also outlined in the August version update announcement, we’ll be making several adjustments to make it easier for melee to function in battle.
- Adjustments to defense from VIT
We’ll be increasing the amount of defense players gain depending on their VIT.
- Adjustments to monster evasion
We’ll be lowering the evasion values for high-level monsters. The higher the monster’s level, the more we will be reducing their evasion.
- Adjustments to damage from AoE abilities
When a monster utilizes a magic-based AoE ability, we will be reducing the damage incurred by players other than the main target. As this is tied to overall battle balancing, we’ll first be implementing this adjustment for the monsters that appear in Legion and Ambuscade, and we’d like everyone to try it out and let us know your feedback.
- Adjustments to defense from VIT
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07-29-2016, 03:31 AMSiviard1. VIT adjustment - I'm reserving judgment on this one. Could be great, could be "meh". If it's a 1 VIT = 1 DEF that would be spectacular. If it's a 1.5 VIT = 1 DEF ratio, that might still be good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
2. Monster evasion - Awesome. Can't wait to try doing NMs on jobs like WAR, DRK, SAM & DRG
3. AoE damage - While I understand some in-game testing is required due to this being considered a balance issue......hardly anyone does Legion anymore, and who's to say next month's Ambuscade NMs use any magic based AoE at all? IMHO, a proper place to test this would be Escha-Zi'tah NMs and/or High-Tier Battlefields like the Ark Angels/Divine Might, where there is a fair amount of danger from magic based AoE moves, especially Ark Angel TT and Ark Angel EV -
07-29-2016, 04:50 AMShyles
Yay! I am actually really looking forward to this. My biggest frustrations have been mostly about survival in 130+ content, accuracy in 135+ content, and enmity in 119~125 content. I just hope they're substantial enough to make a difference. If they are, then these adjustments could allow melee to compete with Scholars for Escha T3+.
I am wondering whether the AoE damage reduction will apply to both Spell damage and TP-based magical AoEs. Melee jobs (particularly dual-wielders) still feed NMs a lot of TP even with capped subtle blow. Hopefully it will apply to both. -
07-29-2016, 04:52 AMOmnysValefor
It's probably a zone modifier, and since Ambuscade takes place in Legion, this happens.
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07-29-2016, 07:15 AMMookies75
Could you consider adjusting how negative status affect spam works? Possibly putting a heavier diminishing return on them? Or making trusts more resistant to status effects than they currently are? Or at least make it so that remedies will work through paralyze?
In a lot of content NM's will have near 100% uptime on the status effects they spam either due to insane regain/tp move frequency or extremely low cooldowns on their aoe negative status effect spells.
I get that groups should have access to a GEO vex/attune for the hard fights. But soloers are hit pretty hard by the status effect spam even in lower tier content, especially if they're trying to get geared. You can't tell your trust to use a remedy, so you're pigeon holed into using DNC sub else risk getting wiped on the first silencga.
Would you also consider adding a GEO trust with vex/attune for soloers if you're going to stand by the false claim that status effects don't have 100% uptime in most cases?
It also bothers me that the paladin-ish tanks like August won't wake anyone up when you've been sleepga'd... -
07-29-2016, 07:37 AMOmnysValeforOr making players in general more resistant. It would also be nice to see Unity whms respond to a bar to an enfeeble when hit with that enfeeble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookies75
As a good GEO (no Idris) and someone with access to plenty of GEOs (a few Idrises), I don't think vex/attune should be as mandatory as it is but god it is. Yeah, top-end tear stuff, okay but some measly NMs are just so much easier with Vex/Attune.Quote:
I get that groups should have access to a GEO vex/attune for the hard fights. But soloers are hit pretty hard by the status effect spam even in lower tier content, especially if they're trying to get geared. You can't tell your trust to use a remedy, so you're pigeon holed into using DNC sub else risk getting wiped on the first silencga.
Right now it's like: You need V/A or a Yagrush or probably both for the hard stuff. It's gotten way way way out of hand.
August will, though he gives no preferential order to who he wakes. It might be the DRK. You might have cases of him being silenced.Quote:
It also bothers me that the paladin-ish tanks like August won't wake anyone up when you've been sleepga'd...
Some AI improvement to make him look first for a WHM/SCH//RDM/PLD/DNC would be nice. -
07-29-2016, 10:20 AMZeldar
I'd settle for making my WHM trust smart enough to ALWAYS stay out of range. All too often my Apururu gets silenced or beat up because he took his time getting out of the way. He's a unity LEADER...shouldn't he be smarter than that? As for status effects, they are just part of the game. Your WHM needs to know which moves give which effects and plan accordingly. They need to have a priority list when it comes to these effects....like knowing to silena the PLD first. A mediocre WHM can get by on mediocre content. Hardcore content calls for a hardcore whm.
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07-29-2016, 11:17 AMBBWallace
Aprururu isn't a he.
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07-29-2016, 12:06 PMSelindrile
While adjusting non-main-target damage is a step in the right direction, I think that's a healthy adjustment, the status debuffs/dispels are more the reason melees aren't used. Melees feed the mob more tp, and have to absorb a lot more WS, this is the core of the issue, when you spend so much of the fight disabled, even if you're alive, your damage is crap compared to someone who isn't getting hit by such things.
Vit and Agi bonus, I think are buffs we didn't really need, but sure, we'll see how they affect things. -
07-29-2016, 02:24 PMOmnysValeforTo the part I bolded: While this is technically correct, this line-of-thought is wrong. Enfeebling spam has gotten way too out of hand, especially when mages simply are unaffected by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldar
Can't say for sure about vit, though I'm not really excited for it. At most, it will mean a buff of like 75 defense to most melee. However, the agi change is reducing the evasion monsters have and that is a good move for melee-oriented strategies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selindrile
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07-29-2016, 02:47 PMZeldar
Which enfeeble spam is way out of hand? On the NMs I've fought on THF or BLU, its really a matter of my WHM getting rid of the ailment in a timely manner. Its part of the game. Yeah being slowed sucks. Being paralyzed sucks. Being poisoned and bio'd sucks. Having a great WHM that knows what he is doing fixes all of these things.
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07-29-2016, 03:44 PMUrmom
For normal debuffs like slow let's say the problem isn't just that you get debuffed but that it's often AoE and with multiple melees your whm sometimes doesn't even have time to erase everyone before a new set of debuffs hits melee town. Often becomes better making sure all the melees have remedies/pancea on them. That said this is less of an issue specifically with debuffs and more of an issue with mobs basically having perma Meikyo Shisui when you put multiple melees on them.
That said there are other debuffs can't really be dealt with like terror or amnesia or huge stat down or like huge def down etc or mechanics that stop them from being removed that things that are problematic in themselves. Even semi frequent stuns/petrify can be rather debilitating to melees regardless of whm (mythic aside) -
07-29-2016, 04:05 PMSelindrileYakshi - Doomga, Strophadia - Amnesia, Ironside - Dispelga/Amnesiaga/Terrorga/Gearlock, Mauve-Wristed Gomberry - Splitting, melees can't aoe as well, Golden Kist - Everything, Dazzling Dolores - Charm, Amnesia, Virava - Charmga Spam, Wrathhare - Whirl Claws with added effect death spam, Aglaophotis - Amnesia, Harpeia - Several super annoying spams, Vidala - Uses Perfect Dodge... There are more, I haven't even started with the actual hard ones yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldar
Urmom has a good point though, I said something similar earlier, if these moves were done far less frequently, this would be less of an issue.
The problem is mostly the enfeebles that the Whm can't remove, namely amnesia/charm/terror/stun, or the massive dispels that take the mob 1 second to use, but require 8-9 recasts from your mages while doing your other jobs, also many of the melee buffs simply can't be put back up, if it dispels your berserk, or your Mighty Guard or the like, you just have to wait, because you can't put it back up for a while.
Most of this list is easy, because we outgear it, but the point is it's WAY harder to do with melees than mages even if most you can complete with melee, the problem is the discrepancy, if SE continues to make mobs that spam disables that make melees inefficient, we'll keep doing everything with mages, that's all. -
07-29-2016, 04:49 PMRooj
These status ailment complaints are one reason I love playing RDM, and also why I recently started full-timing the new tathlum. I mean I have to know the fight beforehand, but I use my barelement and barstatus spells religiously (using Barblizzard helps resist Paralyze, plus Barparalyze, plus Tathlum). And then I make fun of my party for being debuffed while I'm still DPSing away. Ammo stats aren't really that great in the first place, and your ammo hardly matters if you're paralyzed or slowed, etc anyway.
I will say that by far, my greatest bane in this game is mass dispel. Now that makes me cry emo tears of blood. -
07-29-2016, 04:57 PMRoojThere are WSes that go through PD. I'm not sure but I'd imagine pretty much everyone has one at this point, IDK. Melee should be using their TP gain JAs/temps during this time. Also as RDM when something uses PD/Invincible, Poison II is still ticking, Enspells still hurt on Invincible, and it's also the perfect time to throw out some extra debuffs/nukes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selindrile
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07-29-2016, 05:09 PMZeldar
Clerics drink removes a lot of this junk. I know you only have 1 in Gaes Feat, but maybe they could add a system similar to VW where certain temps are replenished. The proc system is already there, just not as prevalent as in VW. Maybe they could add temp item replenishment to GF as well, and tie the ones you get to the vorseals you have earned. Not a perfect "fix" but we don't want this stuff too easy, do we?
As a side note, try everyone grouping up directly behind Dazzling Dolores except the tank. It works wonders. Some of the others you mentioned just make it necessary to at the very least have a hybrid party setup, such as Vidala. It doesn't PD the whole fight. As with mobs in the past that use PD, you just need to nuke it while PD is up...same with any mob that uses invincible. Its a mechanic of the game. -
07-29-2016, 05:28 PMSelindrile
Again, to repeat myself, there are answers many of these issues (not all), and a lot of it is very completable, reguardless, as I said, it's mostly quite easy to complete, the point is, all of these mechanics make melees far worse than mages at the end of the day, you're providing solutions to these problems, while we long ago found the better solution, circumvent them by not using melee and completing the content faster (due to not having to deal with these issues) and easier.
At the end of the day this is the conversation we keep having.
People who want change: It's harder to do content on melees than mages because of these issues.
People who don't want change: There are workarounds to some of these issues.
But at it's heart, you still have to put forth the effort to make these workarounds happen, and be less efficient and slower than mages for having to take the time to do these things, rather than just doing it on mages, which is the entire point. -
07-29-2016, 05:47 PMZeldar
Working around these things is a part of a melee's job, just as working around removing them from you is a WHMs job. Avoiding them is a mages job. There are mechanics on mobs that make mages useless as well. MANY mobs in this game are magic resistant. For a while, a pimped out BLM couldn't get into ANY type of content due to magic resistance. RDM was made nearly useless for a while because of this as well, and many people haven't figured out yet that RDM is useful again. I'm just saying that every job has its hurdles. Changing the game isn't always the best solution...learning to overcome them on your own sometimes is. Perhaps if the mob is using too many TP moves, your whm needs to learn the effects of auspice, your thf needs to learn to use conspirator, your DDs need more subtle blow, and you need a rdm or geo to slow the mob down a bit and make it less accurate. Some mechanics to help with your problems are already there: the question is, are you willing to use them?
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07-29-2016, 05:49 PMAtaraxiaQuote:
Originally Posted by Camate
wow finally this is probably the best news i heard coming from Camate and Akihiko Matsui. I hope your adjustment include High tier mission battle like AA, Avatar and others. I hope you can run a test on all content if a Warrior, Mnk, Drg or Dark Knight can win in difficult or Very Difficult mode.
High tier mission battle at difficult level are a lot tougher than fighting a NM in Reisenjima Tier 1 level 129. For example, we get one shot astral flow from avatar in difficult and our trust die but fighting Bugard NM in Reisenjima seems much easier. I hope the adjustment is good enough so people can enjoy doing high tier mission and unity cord NM. =) -
07-29-2016, 05:54 PMRooj
Playing a job because it makes content easier instead of playing a job that I love is something that I have never and will never do. And I find it depressing that people play that way. Also now that I think about it, I've never had a mage in the party during Vidala lol.
I would rather not complete content than play a different job. Period. -
07-29-2016, 06:09 PMSelindrileMany of these things do have workarounds, some reasonable, some not, but you're missing the entire point, at some point (and we passed this long ago on most of these mobs) the workaround is so sub-optimal that using another job that doesn't need to use this workaround is the far better option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldar
Yep! And guess what, we made a change, now they're usable on any content! \^^/Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldar
This statement, more than anything highlights the hilarious disconnect, even if everyone uses 50 subtle blow (which is cap, auspice included) I highly doubt that would decrease WS frequency at all, in a melee setup NMs usually have 3k TP before they finish their current WS, they gain so much TP by being hit, that even halfing it, and removing 100% of their TP gain from melee. (Though I doubt you could make most real endgame mobs inaccurate even with all the -accuracy/+evasion you could manage, which even if you could floor them at 20% would make very little difference in their overall tp gain.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldar
Simply put, the speed at which melee attack with their 80% delay reduction makes player TP gain very fast, nearly instantaneously, and the rate at which a player feeds tp is a very similar rate, so the moment you have two melees, even if they both used 50% subtle blow (which would notably hurt your DPS), the NM gains TP just as fast if not faster, and their WS are far more devastating, and if you as a player are using a multihit ws, you pretty much instantly feed him a ton of TP anyway. -
07-29-2016, 06:13 PMRooj
Also I wanted to add to a discussion that happened much earlier in the thread, about NMs being immune to debuffs.
Several years ago around the Voidwatch era they decided to make ALL new content debuffable, with zero immunities. If you adjust your chat log, it will tell you when you cast a spell if something is completely immune to it or if it only resisted (it's my understanding that complete immunities only exist in pre-ilvl content). It will also tell you if an Immunobreak occurs, something I never see people talk about and something that people really need to learn about. Just the other day, a few of us were farming Taelmoth the Diremaw. Once he gets to around 50% he starts spamming Azure Lore and 1 shotting people (I imagine the normal strategy here is to kite), except this never happened because I had him Silenced every time.
It's truly a blessing being able to Silence mobs that cast terrible things like Breakga, Paralyga, Slowga, Dispelga... etc. I can't wait till I get more MACC. Making MACC cape @ next Ambu :) -
07-29-2016, 08:31 PMZeldar
No no Rooj, you don't get the point ! They don't want to bring mages, especially RED mages ! They want to do it all as nothing but a bunch of DDs and MAYBE a WHM !! Come on man, don't make them silence a mob, just make the mob not cast at all... While you're at it, how about the mob not use TP moves. You know what, I have a solution that will make them happy : how about the mob just stands there and does nothing....THAT will make for a fun game !!!!!!!!!!
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07-29-2016, 08:39 PMZeldar
I of course say this with sarcasm, but this is the direction the community is slowly moving towards. Every time something is a tiny bit difficult, people cry . So SE dumbs down our beloved game for people that cry all the time, then guess what? ITS STILL NOT ENOUGH!!!!!! So what happens? They cry some more. I mean come on, they are already making it so you won't need so much accuracy, which is silly in my opinion. "Oh , I want to fight mobs that are 20 levels higher than me, but I expect to hit with every swing in my capped haste and multi-hit gear. Make it so I don't need an accuracy set at all. Put a ton of accuracy on ALL of my gear, OK?" Then they announce that they are looking into the amount of damage that mobs do with AoE attacks so that melees can play again. Man, thats a godsend, but is it enough for the community? NO... they now want the mobs to stop enfeebling them too. Whats next, PLDs want Ochain and Aegis to be synergized together so they dont need to swap? WAR want a weapon that deals all forms of damage so they won't have to swap? Is your own TP gain rate enough for you? Probably not, so how about they raise your TP per hit to 250? I mean seriously people....do you want new battle content, or do you want them to spend all of their resources making this game so easy that its boring?
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07-29-2016, 08:42 PMMookies75You're missing the point. The problem is that these potent debuffs have near 100% uptime. So even if they were to be removed, they would go right back up. That is essentially a flat nerf for all melee, some affected worse than others, and it is the MAIN issue melee are having right now besides getting one shot by TP spam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldar
You have mobs that spam stunga via spell or tp move, mobs that spam aoe stat down, aoe petrify, POTENT aoe paralyze (to the point where it takes 30 attempts to use a remedy), sleepgas, 100% uptime encumberance, 100% uptime amnesia, doomga, aoe curse, aoe status drains, etc, etc, etc. And on top of that, this is not a problem that is limited to high tier content. Even HTBF, or content that is solable for gearing purposes, suffers from the same poorly thought out difficulty increase techniques. Do you even play this game? You should know all of this if so. I feel like you're just trolling people here.
If you're going to sit there and say being slow3'd for the duration of a fight doesn't matter, then you might as well go into the fight naked. And again, I want to make sure this is very clear, the problem is the near immediate re-application of said debuffs and the near 100% uptime they have.
And this is not just a problem in group play. People who choose to, or are forced to, Solo, are heavily affected by these poor design choices. And at a point of this games life where soloing is being more and more encouraged, something needs to be done to address the fact that these negative status effects are way too harsh for EVERYONE. I'm not saying make the game easier, I'm saying stop making it unfair and cheesy. -
07-29-2016, 08:51 PMZeldar
You are being overly dramatic. Yes, some mobs can be spammy. Its the equivalent of them having an aura. Mobs in the game have doom , paralyze, and slow auras. Some have perma-spikes that cannot be removed, which have added effects of paralyze, stun, hp drain, even death. YOU are not getting the point of the game obviously: these effects were put there to add a level of difficulty ! They aren't making DDs unplayable, they are making them interesting. OK, so I get the point that this mechanic does make some groups choose a ranged approach over an up close and personal approach. A. strategy is part of the game, and B. an unwillingness to overcome obstacles is the fault of the group of players in question, not the game mechanics. If you love WAR and your group doesn't allow you to play it, find another group that suits your playstyle. Find a WHM with a Yagrush ( yes, its a difficult to obtain END GAME weapon, but arent we talking about END GAME content?).
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07-29-2016, 08:53 PMZeldar
I guess maybe I don't get it. Maybe thats because I play with a group of players that are good at what they do and enjoy a degree of difficulty. As most of them will bluntly say, and what I've been holding off saying is: if you are having this many problems, your solution is GET GOOD.
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07-30-2016, 01:59 AMOmnysValeforThat used to be acceptable thinking when mages didn't have infinite MP. In 75 era, no matter how far a BLM outgeared the content, mp was still an issue. It no longer is between /convert, Myrkr, 3 tiers of aspir, BLM AF Body or the Meebles version that some people use, various sources of refresh, frequently temps, plentiful refresh on gear (Remember when your refresh set was ... vermy cloak?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldar
If the boss isn't harshly resistant to magic damage, there is no reason to favor melee over mages. Frequently, not always, magic bursting kills the boss faster, especially if it's something that is dead before the sch runs out of strats. If you incorporate the tank into closing skillchains when they can, this is very easy to achieve.
I play with a group of people that are good at what they do and enjoy clearing difficult content. We don't bring suboptimal solutions because it's just inferior. Killing faster / more intelligently / safer is just smarter. I enjoy playing PLD but I'll get on another job if it better accommodates the group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldar
I loathe this line of thought that if people do it differently than you, they're somehow "not good". -
07-30-2016, 02:17 AMShylesThe problem, Zeldar, is that what you're suggesting about going to find a Yagrush WHM is impractical in the current metagame. On this topic, Selindrile is right, and the majority of people follow the path of least resistance. To explain, let's imagine any one of the powerful endgame NMs with cornucopias of Status effects and heavy AoE damage. Yes, an excellent WHM/SCH with Yagrush that is on-point with status removals is almost a necessity if using melee jobs in the alliance. But they're not needed at all for Mage Burns. So why would one bother hunting down an exceptionally capable white mage that can keep melees alive, when they can get any random white mage, or even a whm trust, to heal for a mage-only alliance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldar
And please don't assume everyone here is lobbying to make the game easier. We're not. The people you are calling whiny and dramatic are pointing out major imbalances. I like challenges as much as you do, but I don't like it when there are glaring imbalances that outright discourage participation of entire job types. You were mocking people's complaints about accuracy... If a melee player has low accuracy, they miss and deal 0 damage. They also gain no TP so they can't skillchain. Magic damage always hits. It's why Scholars can skill chain so consistently on the hardest bosses. So if someone wanted to kill Schah, why would anyone bother with melee jobs when they can just go with the safe, consistent mage job?
Lastly, Monster TP gains are indeed very imbalanced in the current metagame. Magic spells feed a flat 10 TP per spell, but Melee hits Feed TP based on weapon delay. With how fast we're hitting now, subtle blow makes very little difference anymore. We feed TP to the NM very very fast while mages feed next to nothing. It literally makes taking a melee a liability for the alliance, because it will make the fight harder and more dangerous for everyone. So again, why would you take a melee to Schah?
Fixing these things won't necessarily make the game easier. It will balance the playing field. It might let people feel better about bringing their Dark Knight friend to a tough fight. It makes the game more enjoyable for more than a select few. So please don't patronize people and tell them to "Get Good". I think they're really good at their jobs, but are frustrated that their jobs aren't competitive in the current metagame. It's unfortunate that you don't understand that. -
07-30-2016, 02:39 AMRoojHow can you call if difficult content if only 1 player in your entire group is ever getting hit by anything including AOEs? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
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07-30-2016, 02:58 AMdetlefSo content is only difficult if you have a lot of people in range?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooj
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07-30-2016, 03:23 AMOmnysValefor
I guess content is only hard if you make it hard.
For some people jobs are fun, for others success is fun. Fun for me is contributing the best I can to success.