Thank you for making both the grind and rewards of the Job Point system so terrible.

The JP Dev post offered more information on the merit expansion. Specifically, that they're not planning on adjusting the WS category.

I wish they would reconsider that in particular. I understand wanting to make people specialize, but I don't think that's the vanadiel we're in anymore.

Even on BLU, which is a pretty efficient solo job, and with Trust npcs, I was barely able to make 5k capacity points per hour. That's six hours of grinding for one Job Point. So yeah, even a double capacity point campaign wouldn't make a dent in most people's progress.

You probably need to adjust your camp (not that it's really worth it). The best I've been able to do is about 20k points per hour on DNC. In order to get the 220 job points required to cap out after the next update I would have to farm DC monsters for 330 hours. There are two ways to look at this, in my opinion:
1) How horrible! 330 hours would eat my 2 hours per night for the next 150 days! Not only that, but I'll farm enough XP in the process to level all jobs to 99 and fully merit them (twice).
2) When the merit system was initially released, people were getting about 8k/hr in good merit parties. That means that, for fortunate jobs, this system is somewhat comparable to release-day merit points.

I definitely feel both of the above ways, but (as the title points out), the benefits offered by job points are minimal. There's nothing that says we need to cap out. Thus I am actually more inclined to go with option 3:
3) The benefits of job points are so minimal that I don't really want to farm them seriously. It's just an option to improve my character that I can take advantage of when I'm tired of doing other things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Byrth

You probably need to adjust your camp (not that it's really worth it). The best I've been able to do is about 20k points per hour on DNC. In order to get the 220 job points required to cap out after the next update I would have to farm DC monsters for 330 hours. There are two ways to look at this, in my opinion:
1) How horrible! 330 hours would eat my 2 hours per night for the next 150 days! Not only that, but I'll farm enough XP in the process to level all jobs to 99 and fully merit them (twice).
2) When the merit system was initially released, people were getting about 8k/hr in good merit parties. That means that, for fortunate jobs, this system is somewhat comparable to release-day merit points.

I definitely feel both of the above ways, but (as the title points out), the benefits offered by job points are minimal. There's nothing that says we need to cap out. Thus I am actually more inclined to go with option 3:
3) The benefits of job points are so minimal that I don't really want to farm them seriously. It's just an option to improve my character that I can take advantage of when I'm tired of doing other things.

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You are on DNC, a good solo job. However, try that with BRD, WHM, or other support. Even with Trust, I doubt you could sustain your quoted 20K/hr.

Overall, I like the concept; the execution is still flawed and needs tweaked.

OTHER SUGGESTIONS/ALTERNATIVES
1) Create a system where we could convert merit points into job points (e.g. 10 merits per 1 job point)
2) As we are able to toggle between exp and limit points, allow a toggle to convert exp to capacity points (e.g. solo kill: 1000xp/100cp -> 0xp/500cp).
3) Add an item to allow capacity point bonus (akin to an Emperor/Empress Ring).

I haven't had a chance to fully read through this thread and the suggestion that I had I was going to place in the QoL thread, but seeing as how it(my suggestion) concerns the Job Point System I figured I'd place it in this thread.

Anyways, I'm not a game dev and I have zero knowledge on game design, but if I wanted to market a new in-game system to both existing and new players, the dev team needs to understand that the current Job Point system isn't the way. The current Job Point System is really nothing more than a even more tedious, uneventful, and even more less than fun version of the lvling/merit system. On top of that, majority of the jobs don't really offer anything worthwhile and CP takes forever to build up just for what...one job point maybe?

In another thread someone mention more advanced jobs that would go off of the lvled 99 jobs that a player has. To me that would seem more like a better use and reward of the Job Point system than it's current state. I know it's too late to change the system itself, but this could be something that's added somewhere down the line. A certain amount of points to unlock said Job and then the job abilities itself.

All I'm saying is with the SoA expansion, mobs are getting stronger and with the addition of more powerful jobs that branch off of our lvl 99 jobs via the job point system that would possibly be a good...maybe even better use to the JP system than it is now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shadax

Even on BLU, which is a pretty efficient solo job, and with Trust npcs, I was barely able to make 5k capacity points per hour. That's six hours of grinding for one Job Point. So yeah, even a double capacity point campaign wouldn't make a dent in most people's progress.

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Can triple that with blu burning.

Suggestions:

Add only 10% decrease to capacity points for each member as they are added (2 member -10/100, 3 member -9/90, 4 member -8/81, 5 member -7/73, 6 member -6/66) so you would be at 60% of regular capacity points with 6 member vs 1.

Let Corsairs roll work for this.

Add large amount of capacity points for events they want to promote (if most ppl done with AA or other fights, add 15k capacity points to the event)

Allow for trade of other currencies (merit points, w/e) in proper quanties for exchange of capacity points. For example: 10/1 for merit points to capacity (this would allow you to farm on BLU for example (getting some capacity points) and then use the merits gain to switch to RNG and use on it.

THD, Byrth said the BEST he could do was 20k/h on dnc. So obviously he didnt mean you could go out on your whm and get 20k/h. given the best rate of gain he then speculated how long it would take to gain job points. So it would be naturally harder to do on whm or whatever job you might come up with. He in no way said you could get 20k on every job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trumpy

THD, Byrth said the BEST he could do was 20k/h on dnc. So obviously he didnt mean you could go out on your whm and get 20k/h. given the best rate of gain he then speculated how long it would take to gain job points. So it would be naturally harder to do on whm or whatever job you might come up with. He in no way said you could get 20k on every job.

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I know he said it was the best... It was more of a rhetorical question/comment.

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Originally Posted by machini

Are we ignoring the fact that it's going to take, even if it's only 1 job point per level of job point system option, 1.8 million experience points to get something maxed out? That's at a minimum. If the progression of required points is more like Merits, we're probably looking at something more like 4.5 million experience per job point ability maxed out, and 9 for a current job's two abilities

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Casuals keep killing this game with all the I wants and gimme everything free bs. Just stop already, jesus h christ this isnt supposed to be a beginners level game, for that theres wow and xiv. Quit with the QQ its too hard crap already. You can take you first job to 99 and be fully merited in a week, you can have all the old content done in a month, and have maxxed our gear in 3 months, then what?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manque

The JP Dev post offered more information on the merit expansion. Specifically, that they're not planning on adjusting the WS category.

I wish they would reconsider that in particular. I understand wanting to make people specialize, but I don't think that's the vanadiel we're in anymore.

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^100x this. It's to the point where I might consider playing a new job, then realize, "Oh, it needs a certain merit WS? Looks like I won't be playing that one." I'm already maxed out on 3 merit WS that are crucial, so I'd rather not gimp one of them to unlock others (which, in turn, would also be gimped).

And really, forcing people to specialize goes against one of FFXI's major selling points: being able to play any and all jobs on a single character.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by predatory

Casuals keep killing this game with all the I wants and gimme everything free bs. Just stop already, jesus h christ this isnt supposed to be a beginners level game, for that theres wow and xiv. Quit with the QQ its too hard crap already. You can take you first job to 99 and be fully merited in a week, you can have all the old content done in a month, and have maxxed our gear in 3 months, then what?

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Though every hardcore player could quit tomorrow and the game would keep chugging on and with a quick change to some values the dirty casuals would still keep clearing content. On the other hand if all the casuals left the game would shut down in a week, we already been over this. The hardcore grind niche is a very poor niche to fill and not very profitable and not something PvE games can pull off and only reason EVE can pull this off is they have a very extensive PvP that is some what balanced, that and you can blow up thousands of real life dollars.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by predatory

Casuals keep killing this game with all the I wants and gimme everything free bs. Just stop already, jesus h christ this isnt supposed to be a beginners level game, for that theres wow and xiv. Quit with the QQ its too hard crap already. You can take you first job to 99 and be fully merited in a week, you can have all the old content done in a month, and have maxxed our gear in 3 months, then what?

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Then you gear other jobs, merit them, take things to extremes and try to max out everything about your job, make gil, create Mythics. There's a lot more to this game than what Job Points could ever offer in terms of depth... To defend this terrible system is pathetic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demonjustin

Then you gear other jobs, merit them, take things to extremes and try to max out everything about your job, make gil, create Mythics. There's a lot more to this game than what Job Points could ever offer in terms of depth... To defend this terrible system is pathetic.

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The only one reason I can think of at the moment to defend the job points thread simply is because of at this moment, this is the only route the dev teams have taken into fixing the blue mages points system for spells to be used and I rather wished they would have took an actual better approach to fixing the blue mages jobs for the better use in a lot more situations but it still remains there are still certain fixes that could have been done to blue instead of just the points in the end.

Just wanted to report that I usually only mention anything about the blue mage fixin's in the Blue mage Job adjustments thread and figured you might not of heard of the thread but I do know a few who have replied in this thread who have few replies to the blue mage thread as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demonjustin

Then you gear other jobs, merit them, take things to extremes and try to max out everything about your job, make gil, create Mythics. There's a lot more to this game than what Job Points could ever offer in terms of depth... To defend this terrible system is pathetic.

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The system is fine, the rewards per job could stand some tweaking and I'm sure that will happen over time, but leave the point system as is. I mean for gods sake stop taking all the work out of every single part of the game. Its starting to feel like everyone wants to just sit around collecting agubmint check for their chars, rather actually putting in the effort to do anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Though every hardcore player could quit tomorrow and the game would keep chugging on and with a quick change to some values the dirty casuals would still keep clearing content. On the other hand if all the casuals left the game would shut down in a week, we already been over this. The hardcore grind niche is a very poor niche to fill and not very profitable and not something PvE games can pull off and only reason EVE can pull this off is they have a very extensive PvP that is some what balanced, that and you can blow up thousands of real life dollars.

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We must be defining dirty casuals differently. My definition is more about the a**hat noob who starts playing one day and thinks they should have everything the game has to offer by the end of their 30 day trial, and have generally quit in 3 or 4 months. This is generally the jackass that brays the loudest that things are too hard and should be easier. Unfortunately these are the very same people SE listens to as they dumb down our game and gradually make it easier to play than go fish

So, are our definitions alike?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by predatory

We must be defining dirty casuals differently. My definition is more about the a**hat noob who starts playing one day and thinks they should have everything the game has to offer by the end of their 30 day trial, and have generally quit in 3 or 4 months. This is generally the jackass that brays the loudest that things are too hard and should be easier. Unfortunately these are the very same people SE listens to as they dumb down our game and gradually make it easier to play than go fish

So, are our definitions alike?

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This mythical group of people you made up in your head don't really count.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

This mythical group of people you made up in your head don't really count.

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Actually that isn't a mythical group at all, Ive met too many just like that on both Bahamut and Ramuh before that. There's a prime example of this behavior just one or two pages over it this same forum

Quote:

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Originally Posted by predatory

The system is fine, the rewards per job could stand some tweaking and I'm sure that will happen over time, but leave the point system as is. I mean for gods sake stop taking all the work out of every single part of the game. Its starting to feel like everyone wants to just sit around collecting agubmint check for their chars, rather actually putting in the effort to do anything.

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I would love to take some time to do a few parties to get points and upgrade my RDM. Sitting around for countless hours to obtain an insane amount of points for any upgrade isn't my idea of fun or entertainment nor would I subject myself to such a stupid system. You say everyone wants to be lazy, ok sure, sometimes people are. But if you want to say this system being changed would be an extension of such a thing when it's currently such an asinine and ludicrous system that not only bores people to death but consumes a ton of time for no reason, no. The system as it is is nothing less than stupid, asking it not to take hours for a single point and days for a single capped category is far from lazy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by predatory

Actually that isn't a mythical group at all, Ive met too many just like that on both Bahamut and Ramuh before that. There's a prime example of this behavior just one or two pages over it this same forum

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By your own words.

Quote:

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My definition is more about the a**hat noob who starts playing one day and thinks they should have everything the game has to offer by the end of their 30 day trial

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Unless I'm mistaken the primary complaint of that thread was the amount of time people had to waste to get things done even if they were almost entirely unrelated and not only old but insanely easy content. I not once saw the OP of that thread ask for Relics, Mythics, or Empyreans to fall from the sky, nor did they ask Delve wins to be easier, hell, they didn't even get to the point they knew what Delve actually was so far as I know. To say that's an example of someone wanting 'everything the game has to offer by the end of their trial' is stupid because I can't think of anyone I met who actually wanted that. People might want the game to be more accessible or, I don't know, fun, when joining the game rather than wading through hours upon hours of boring BS to get somewhere fun for this game, yet everyone acts like unless you do the boring BS you're not worthy. In either case, the bottom line is it's not an example of what you described.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demonjustin

I would love to take some time to do a few parties to get points and upgrade my RDM. Sitting around for countless hours to obtain an insane amount of points for any upgrade isn't my idea of fun or entertainment nor would I subject myself to such a stupid system. You say everyone wants to be lazy, ok sure, sometimes people are. But if you want to say this system being changed would be an extension of such a thing when it's currently such an asinine and ludicrous system that not only bores people to death but consumes a ton of time for no reason, no. The system as it is is nothing less than stupid, asking it not to take hours for a single point and days for a single capped category is far from lazy.

By your own words.Unless I'm mistaken the primary complaint of that thread was the amount of time people had to waste to get things done even if they were almost entirely unrelated and not only old but insanely easy content. I not once saw the OP of that thread ask for Relics, Mythics, or Empyreans to fall from the sky, nor did they ask Delve wins to be easier, hell, they didn't even get to the point they knew what Delve actually was so far as I know. To say that's an example of someone wanting 'everything the game has to offer by the end of their trial' is stupid because I can't think of anyone I met who actually wanted that. People might want the game to be more accessible or, I don't know, fun, when joining the game rather than wading through hours upon hours of boring BS to get somewhere fun for this game, yet everyone acts like unless you do the boring BS you're not worthy. In either case, the bottom line is it's not an example of what you described.

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Was responding to a comment made to me, not to the OP in that last quote of mine, but you knew that because you read it and quoted it didn't you?

Btw, if you don't want to do the cont, then don't do it. But how about leaving it alone for those of us who actually do like to xp? Or does everything have to be in welfare queen mode?

The Ever Quest MMO model is long dead and as I have mention before one of the creators of EQ has failed several times to get kick starters to even half of the goal to develop such a game. As you most likely don't know FFXI started as nothing more then a EQ clone with the "Final Fantasy" brand and it's main niche was being a Final Fantasy MMO nothing else.The devs like all earlier MMOs used the grind to extend content while producing new content at a sail pace. Sorry you are one of the people that think mindless grinding=difficulty.

I don't think everything should be handed to plays and have defended the CoP requirements for reforging but that isn't mindless and at the very least you are still rewarded with a good story.

I finished capping DNC this morning. I got over 5000 merits in the process.

BARANSU

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I finished capping DNC this morning. I got over 5000 merits in the process.

BARANSU

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i cant stop laughing lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by predatory

Was responding to a comment made to me, not to the OP in that last quote of mine, but you knew that because you read it and quoted it didn't you?

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Yes, I did, that's why I replied to what you said as you said it not as though it were a reply to the OP of that thread. The reply I made was meant to show how the OP of that thread did not fit into the category of players you had provided, which disproved your point that the OP was in fact one of those people. You gave them and their thread as an example even though they don't seem to fit the description you gave. I fully understand your post, I'm not sure you understood the context of mine however if you didn't realise my post was meant to disprove they're part of that subset of players rather than replying to a reply to that thread of some sort.

Quote:

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Btw, if you don't want to do the cont, then don't do it. But how about leaving it alone for those of us who actually do like to xp? Or does everything have to be in welfare queen mode?

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If you like to XP then do XP. Making it more feasible for the majority of players to obtain these points won't magically make it so that you can't do XP parties anymore. It's actually quite the opposite, right now the interest in doing this is so low I probably couldn't find 6 people who want to farm these points out of all the people I know, and I know a lot of people. By making it more feasible it would actually get more interest, which means more parties overall and in the end if you legitimately enjoy doing XP parties it gives you a ton more people and groups to do it with.

You also seem to once again go with the whole 'you want everything handed to you and don't want to work for it' mentality but I fail to see how this and that are the same at all. Asking for something to be made less boring and needlessly grindy is far from lazy, I personally want to do this, I just won't subject myself to countless hours of XPing for it the way I need to now. I'm not saying I want to cap a category an hour, but the speed it's at now is slow enough it takes more than a day to get a category to cap, more than 24 hours of farming for that, that's stupid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demonjustin

Yes, I did, that's why I replied to what you said as you said it not as though it were a reply to the OP of that thread. The reply I made was meant to show how the OP of that thread did not fit into the category of players you had provided, which disproved your point that the OP was in fact one of those people. You gave them and their thread as an example even though they don't seem to fit the description you gave. I fully understand your post, I'm not sure you understood the context of mine however if you didn't realise my post was meant to disprove they're part of that subset of players rather than replying to a reply to that thread of some sort.

If you like to XP then do XP. Making it more feasible for the majority of players to obtain these points won't magically make it so that you can't do XP parties anymore. It's actually quite the opposite, right now the interest in doing this is so low I probably couldn't find 6 people who want to farm these points out of all the people I know, and I know a lot of people. By making it more feasible it would actually get more interest, which means more parties overall and in the end if you legitimately enjoy doing XP parties it gives you a ton more people and groups to do it with.

You also seem to once again go with the whole 'you want everything handed to you and don't want to work for it' mentality but I fail to see how this and that are the same at all. Asking for something to be made less boring and needlessly grindy is far from lazy, I personally want to do this, I just won't subject myself to countless hours of XPing for it the way I need to now. I'm not saying I want to cap a category an hour, but the speed it's at now is slow enough it takes more than a day to get a category to cap, more than 24 hours of farming for that, that's stupid.

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Lol, just lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

The Ever Quest MMO model is long dead and as I have mention before one of the creators of EQ has failed several times to get kick starters to even half of the goal to develop such a game. As you most likely don't know FFXI started as nothing more then a EQ clone with the "Final Fantasy" brand and it's main niche was being a Final Fantasy MMO nothing else.The devs like all earlier MMOs used the grind to extend content while producing new content at a sail pace. Sorry you are one of the people that think mindless grinding=difficulty.

I don't think everything should be handed to plays and have defended the CoP requirements for reforging but that isn't mindless and at the very least you are still rewarded with a good story.

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Exactly which kick starter title is that? I've been doing research on KS for a while now and sometimes a failed campaign is not always because the idea fails, sometimes they failed because of failed marketing, or having unrealistic goal. I do know a lot of people still view EQ as the greatest MMO ever exist, just those people is enough to support another title similar to EQ but with minor twist/more streamlined.

I don't view "mindless grinding= difficulty", but I do think a goal takes longer to accomplish is not bad for MMO. Short term goals simply_just_doesn't_work in a PVE only themepark MMO, unless you have A LOT of short term goals or have very good PVP, or unless the title is sandbox. I also think content that require players to spend more time on making connections and build a stronger community is more beneficial to a MMO.

THAT is the real reason why older EQ/FFXI was considered a classic. It was never because it made players grind mindlessly for ages, but the fact that you need to make friends in the game to progress, and it kept the players together(or become player's 2nd life, if you view it in a more negative way).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Afania

Exactly which kick starter title is that? I've been doing research on KS for a while now and sometimes a failed campaign is not always because the idea fails, sometimes they failed because of failed marketing, or having unrealistic goal. I do know a lot of people still view EQ as the greatest MMO ever exist, just those people is enough to support another title similar to EQ but with minor twist/more streamlined.

I don't view "mindless grinding= difficulty", but I do think a goal takes longer to accomplish is not bad for MMO. Short term goals simply_just_doesn't_work in a PVE only themepark MMO, unless you have A LOT of short term goals or have very good PVP, or unless the title is sandbox. I also think content that require players to spend more time on making connections and build a stronger community is more beneficial to a MMO.

THAT is the real reason why older EQ/FFXI was considered a classic. It was never because it made players grind mindlessly for ages, but the fact that you need to make friends in the game to progress, and it kept the players together(or become player's 2nd life, if you view it in a more negative way).

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The problem is this new brand of player wants everything really quick, and most of us old-timers left when or soon after they announced they were raising the level cap to 99 I've seen a couple of people from the old days, but they don't stay for long because they say the game has become a joke, and they're right. There are very few long term goals to achieve, people don't hang out like they used to because you used to level with the same people day in and day out, and beacame friends with them, sometiimes in real life, the endgame content is getting better thanks to them adding hardmode, but before that other than delve it was non-existent, everything is easy, nothing takes time anymoire, helll I came back from a break a few days ago and now theres a welfare map vendor in upper jeuno, (welfare because those used to be quested and coffer pop maps that now cost a few gil), at the rates its going someday im gonna be able to pay se 20 bux and get a level 99 char fully loaded with all the best gear. You people are taking all the challenges (time wise, and actual challenge wise )out of the game. and think you're making it better, but you're not, you're making it something a baby could play in its sleep.

Alfana good for you for seeing through this welfare queen mentality going on in this game. Need more people willing to tell the devs to stop this make it easy for lazy people crap

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Afania

Exactly which kick starter title is that? I've been doing research on KS for a while now and sometimes a failed campaign is not always because the idea fails, sometimes they failed because of failed marketing, or having unrealistic goal. I do know a lot of people still view EQ as the greatest MMO ever exist, just those people is enough to support another title similar to EQ but with minor twist/more streamlined.

I don't view "mindless grinding= difficulty", but I do think a goal takes longer to accomplish is not bad for MMO. Short term goals simply_just_doesn't_work in a PVE only themepark MMO, unless you have A LOT of short term goals or have very good PVP, or unless the title is sandbox. I also think content that require players to spend more time on making connections and build a stronger community is more beneficial to a MMO.

THAT is the real reason why older EQ/FFXI was considered a classic. It was never because it made players grind mindlessly for ages, but the fact that you need to make friends in the game to progress, and it kept the players together(or become player's 2nd life, if you view it in a more negative way).

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Brad McQuaid is the dev from EQ asking for the money and "Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen" is the title and I was wrong he did get passed the half way mark by 7% and was seeking 800k to get started not so unrealistic little high but not by that much for a MMO. It really didn't bring much of anything new to the table and abut the nly stand out concept was visible loot but even that is kinda meh neat and not OMFG neat.

The thing is people only think they were having fun while the people around them seen the hell they really went though. A game based around long grinds will not fly in to days market. Sorry to the old fans that still have no life outside of a MMO and can devote the massive time investment to a game for little reward. Old timers are moving away as fast as new fans they have lives outside of their rooms now so while the no lifers will get everything really fast it will still take the people that don't spend more the a couple hours a day time to make progression. The majority of the potential MMO fan base is no longer like that and so Devs will move away from the old models.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Sorry to the old fans that still have no life outside of a MMO and can devote the massive time investment to a game for little reward. Old timers are moving away as fast as new fans they have lives outside of their rooms now so while the no lifers will get everything really fast it will still take the people that don't spend more the a couple hours a day time to make progression. The majority of the potential MMO fan base is no longer like that and so Devs will move away from the old models.

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This pretty much. The generation that grew up on MMOs (and is likely still the biggest user group for them) is getting older. They are having kids. They have full time work.

People don't want to live their entire life on a game anymore. I personally love the changes they have made to XI. Even though there are some roadblocks I don't love, I do appreciate that every time I log on lately there is something I can work on that results in meaningful progress for my character. Once in awhile I have some time to binge on the game, and my character makes great strides. There is still a lot in this game that folks like me can't reach, but now that the power difference between people that have time to say, farm a mythic, and people like me has evened out significantly, I'm pretty okay with that.

I would not be here if it still took a year or more to level a job to cap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Brad McQuaid is the dev from EQ asking for the money and "Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen" is the title and I was wrong he did get passed the half way mark by 7% and was seeking 800k to get started not so unrealistic little high but not by that much for a MMO. It really didn't bring much of anything new to the table and abut the nly stand out concept was visible loot but even that is kinda meh neat and not OMFG neat.

The thing is people only think they were having fun while the people around them seen the hell they really went though. A game based around long grinds will not fly in to days market. Sorry to the old fans that still have no life outside of a MMO and can devote the massive time investment to a game for little reward. Old timers are moving away as fast as new fans they have lives outside of their rooms now so while the no lifers will get everything really fast it will still take the people that don't spend more the a couple hours a day time to make progression. The majority of the potential MMO fan base is no longer like that and so Devs will move away from the old models.

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800k is a lot as a KS project, but it is not a lot for a "spiritual successor" of a classic title, however, I do think this project had failed marketing. It just had a bad sales pitch.

I checked the project page. They failed to present their project with classic EQ "having an adventure in another world" feel to create some sort of nostalgic feel for the fans. I'm a big fan of EQ/FFXI design and WoW/FFXIV ARR hater, so technically, I'm his target audience if he wants to create EQ type of game. Even then his concept failed to make me interested.

Everything they said in the introduction video(I didn't watch every video, just the introduction video, but their introduction video made me NOT want to continue watching more because it's not interesting), can probably apply to almost every other MMO out there. Such as WoW, FFXIV ARR, or SWTOR.

They did said something about grouping, but almost every modern MMO has grouping, and group only content. However, having grouping content/force grouping content is NOT what makes FFXI/EQ different from WoW/SWTOR/ARR.

The entire project just feels like "Hey, I'm an EQ dev, I want to make my next MMO, you can do grouping and you can kill bosses, like every other MMO out there."

There is just something different in FFXI, that is more than grouping, grinding and killing bosses. Mostly the feel that you're living in a virtual world, a dangerous world full of adventure, and all the connections you built, that formed a cohesive community. And things you've done that actually feel connected to your avatar, not just another achievement point, but your OWN CHARACTER's story. You know, the immersion. I will be interested in a game like this, I wouldn't be interested in a game "with group content and you can kill bosses"


Some say what makes FFXI different from WoW/ARR is the grind, and "being time consuming". However, having to grind is not what makes it stand out. Tons of Korean MMO or Asian MMO made you grind as much as FFXI. None of those titles ever interest me. In fact back when I played WoW it was a lot of grind to endgame too, AND it was way less interesting than FFXI.

"Being time consuming" and not good for players with a family, is not FFXI's trademark. MMO genre has been more time consuming than other genre for ages. I know plenty of ppl played ARR 12hr a day. 6 million players forget their job and family to play WoW and earn raid gears, true story. MMO addiction became an issue after WoW era, when more people dropped out of school or lost job because of WoW. I know plenty of MMO addicts irl that just failed at everything, but not because of FFXI, but WoW or Lineage. "Being time consuming" is just, part of MMO that can't be avoided unless you don't play MMO at all. And that's not FFXI's fault, it's the the nature of this genre.


Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen project fail does not indicate building immersion in a MMO is a failed direction. It only indicate the sales pitch fails. I play MMORPG to escape from reality, to live a second life. I don't think this niche market is big at all, but it should be big enough to support $800k. The problem is, they failed to make their game appealing to this niche market. Do you think telling people "Hey, you can kill bosses and you have to group for some content in this MMO" makes a MMO good? No.

They have to tell me what I can do in the game that would give me a memorable adventure to live an interesting life as my character.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

The thing is people only think they were having fun while the people around them seen the hell they really went though. A game based around long grinds will not fly in to days market. Sorry to the old fans that still have no life outside of a MMO and can devote the massive time investment to a game for little reward. Old timers are moving away as fast as new fans they have lives outside of their rooms now so while the no lifers will get everything really fast it will still take the people that don't spend more the a couple hours a day time to make progression. The majority of the potential MMO fan base is no longer like that and so Devs will move away from the old models.

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Brad McQuaid said nothing about "Hey look, we're making this next MMO that will make you grind 10 months to get to endgame". He only said he wanted to make a generic, uninteresting MMO. That's why he failed. Nobody's interested in another MMO to make party and kill bosses.

What makes FFXI great is never just about the grind, but something a lot more complex, memorable and immersive than grind. I'm sorry if you failed to see this after years of playing. I've played majority of current-gen MMO including currently popular TESO, IMO FFXI is still the best RPG experience I ever have in my life.

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Originally Posted by Olor

People don't want to live their entire life on a game anymore.

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This is false.

I know plenty of ppl live their entire life on WoW, FFXIV ARR, LOL, D3, <insert your online game title here>, to a point to be jobless at age 30+. Players not wanting to live their entire life on a game isn't FFXI issue.

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Originally Posted by Afania

This is false.

I know plenty of ppl live their entire life on WoW, FFXIV ARR, LOL, D3, <insert your online game title here>, to a point to be jobless at age 30+. Players not wanting to live their entire life on a game isn't FFXI issue.

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Well whether you know "plenty" of those people or not, they are a very very very tiny insignificant minority of people who can't alone support any game.

Because XI never had a story that even got national attention about an LS trying to beat a certain NM when it was still new 18+ hrs straight. I have read posts on this forums and heard of others while in game having quit because of the grind the game put on you back in the 75 cap days. Shit I know of a few relationships that have ended because of playing XI too much. So to say that it never happens or didn't is just fooling yourself. Heck I know people who would play this at work. Done a few time consuming events with those same at work people. One of the complaints I would read on here or see in shouts or during parties was about how hard the grind was.

http://socksmakepeoplesexy.net/index.php?a=ff11

Having a game that takes hundreds of hours to be able to function with other people that have been playing longer than you is a bad thing. MMO addiction is a big problem. It's nice for FFXI to be more accessible without taking hours to form a party and get to camp, so you can play for a reasonable amount of time and still make progress, like an offline RPG. My free time has shortened as I got older, and I never really had much back when I was 19 when the game came out, though I've stayed subscribed. It took me 8 years under the original XP system to get my first job to 75, with my subjob at 40 (BLM and WHM respectively). Being able to pick up a new job and make progress on it has been a godsend, and I'm finally able to complete the missions I could never get a static group to hold together for for more than 3 missions in a row (people would quit, or their LS would bump them ahead of us and they wouldn't come back for the static). MMOs can't be like EQ1 with a huge grind anymore. Society is more aware of them, and ones that require players to play for 8 hour sessions and eat up all the free time of a player will get bad press. I was already aware of the problem before FFXI, when it was called EverCrack, and lost a friend to it and another to early WoW that way.

Everything isn't instant, but you don't have to waste time idling while trying to get the perfect group and having a long travel time to some place. There are so many events, they wanted people to be able to do them quickly, and the census said people weren't doing a lot of events.

I went and farmed 5 job points today. After that, i went and used them. Considering how long it is to get 30,000 capability points, I thought upgrades were gonna be 1>1>1>1>etc. But I was wrong. It increases by 1 (1>2>3>...) It is frustrating that it takes too much work. I don't see myself getting these upgrades for a lot of jobs I have in the future. It's a waste of time.

I want some of these upgrades badly!!! But I'm not willing to spend too much unnecessary hours for this.

If no changes are to be done for this, then heres to hoping that the new job ability upgrades be just as useless as some we have presently.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Well whether you know "plenty" of those people or not, they are a very very very tiny insignificant minority of people who can't alone support any game.

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It doesn't matter, you made it sound like it's FFXI issue, I'm just telling you this is not. Don't blame FFXI for having players play longer than 2hr a day.

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Originally Posted by bungiefanNA

http://socksmakepeoplesexy.net/index.php?a=ff11

Having a game that takes hundreds of hours to be able to function with other people that have been playing longer than you is a bad thing. MMO addiction is a big problem. It's nice for FFXI to be more accessible without taking hours to form a party and get to camp, so you can play for a reasonable amount of time and still make progress, like an offline RPG. My free time has shortened as I got older, and I never really had much back when I was 19 when the game came out, though I've stayed subscribed. It took me 8 years under the original XP system to get my first job to 75, with my subjob at 40 (BLM and WHM respectively). Being able to pick up a new job and make progress on it has been a godsend, and I'm finally able to complete the missions I could never get a static group to hold together for for more than 3 missions in a row (people would quit, or their LS would bump them ahead of us and they wouldn't come back for the static). MMOs can't be like EQ1 with a huge grind anymore. Society is more aware of them, and ones that require players to play for 8 hour sessions and eat up all the free time of a player will get bad press. I was already aware of the problem before FFXI, when it was called EverCrack, and lost a friend to it and another to early WoW that way.

Everything isn't instant, but you don't have to waste time idling while trying to get the perfect group and having a long travel time to some place. There are so many events, they wanted people to be able to do them quickly, and the census said people weren't doing a lot of events.

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I don't really agree with you. First of all, MMO addiction is a big problem because MMO dev(Blizzard, I'm looking at you) hire psychology experts to implement designs to make players play their game longer, so players don't play for 3 months and quit, leaving empty servers. MMO also functions differently from single player game, so that's kinda necessary for them. Whether you like their approach or not, you can't make a MMO and have every player play like a single player game for 3 months and quit. I know everyone would want to play on and off, quit anytime, play when they have time, but the question is can dev make a living with such model?

2nd, MMO can be played like an offline RPG is the wrong direction for MMO, because you can just play offline RPG for better experience.

Offline RPG has better graphics, better story, you can play anytime you want, stop anytime you want, and generally 10x more fun than playing MMORPG solo. I've tried to play games like FFXI, GW2, SWTOR and WoW like an offline RPG before, the experience is terrible. You just kill mobs and that's it.

I'm not asking MMO to be a huge grind, but I'm asking MMO to be different from offline RPG. And I'm well aware that MMORPG is just 10x more time consuming than offline RPG. It's just the nature of MMO(I've never play ANY PC MMO that's less time consuming than single player RPG, barring mobile MMO), you can't have players play for 1 month and quit, and have empty servers. I don't believe a MMO played like single player RPG can function properly, until a title successfully keep players around by offering single player experience.

Personally, I think "being time consuming" and "can't be played like single player game" is just the nature of MMO. If I don't have time, I won't touch MMORPG at all, I'd stay far, far away from any of them. I find some recent MMO that tried to be less time consuming ended up having worse playing experience than single player RPG. I don't really understand the reason behind wanting a MMORPG to be playable like a single player game, and still insist not to play single player game instead.

I do like being able to play with other people, but cutting down the grind so that finding the other people doesn't take forever is what I appreciate. I meant I like it being on the level of being able to jump in like a single-player game and actually make progress, rather than logging in and not actually being able to participate in the event I had wanted until 3-4 hours have passed because of waiting for people to travel and waiting for people that fill the roles to respond to tells, like it was before Abyssea. It's nice having something I can play for 1-2 hours at a time and still make noticable progress. Not having to go without sleep to get something done is great. The addictions I saw were because you had to play for long periods for meaningful progress, and the changes now are a good step away from that, though job points are a step backward with how they are implemented.

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Originally Posted by bungiefanNA

I do like being able to play with other people, but cutting down the grind so that finding the other people doesn't take forever is what I appreciate. I meant I like it being on the level of being able to jump in like a single-player game and actually make progress, rather than logging in and not actually being able to participate in the event I had wanted until 3-4 hours have passed because of waiting for people to travel and waiting for people that fill the roles to respond to tells, like it was before Abyssea. It's nice having something I can play for 1-2 hours at a time and still make noticable progress. Not having to go without sleep to get something done is great. The addictions I saw were because you had to play for long periods for meaningful progress, and the changes now are a good step away from that, though job points are a step backward with how they are implemented.

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What about doing things you do have time to If they take away everything that takes time to do, or time to set up for people who don't allow themselves time to play, (yes I did say allow yourself time to play, because people make their own choices about what to do with their time), there will be nothing to do for those of us who genuinely enjoy playing the game. If you're of the mindset that everything has to be doable quickly, then you've missed the point of playing an mmo. these are games you Can't win, they're designed for long term enjoyment, and if you don't like playing the game enough to mak time to do things, then you should find a new game or genre of game to play. Maybe minecraft or FFXIV are more to your tastes?

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Originally Posted by predatory

What about doing things you do have time to If they take away everything that takes time to do, or time to set up for people who don't allow themselves time to play, (yes I did say allow yourself time to play, because people make their own choices about what to do with their time), there will be nothing to do for those of us who genuinely enjoy playing the game. If you're of the mindset that everything has to be doable quickly, then you've missed the point of playing an mmo. these are games you Can't win, they're designed for long term enjoyment, and if you don't like playing the game enough to mak time to do things, then you should find a new game or genre of game to play. Maybe minecraft or FFXIV are more to your tastes?

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You realize you sound like a total dick, right?

And obviously you haven't spent much time with those two games you invoked intending to insult your fellow FFXI subscriber (one of the few people keeping this game alive so you can play it, remember). Minecraft and FFXIV are also games you can't win, and there's veritable SHITLOADS of content that anyone can play 24 hours a day.

There's no difference in terms of commitment, and playing those games doesn't make you any "less of a gamer" than playing FFXI. The fact that FFXI REQUIRES more grindy content makes it in no way better. There will NEVER be a dearth of content in this game. But the amount of content that absolutely CANNOT be accomplished in a few hours is unacceptable by today's standards. The average age of gamers keeps going up. Most of us have jobs, families of our own with kids, etc.. We can't sit around all day waiting to get a group just to make a small bit of progress.

How does making the game more convenient for everybody detract from your "genuine enjoyment" of the game? Do you derive pleasure from endless grinds, roadblocks, and content that requires large, restrictive groups? FFXI can't do that anymore with the few players left. Not that all that garbage was ever enjoyable in the first place.

If FFXI is going to survive, it won't be through long-term grinds. People NEED to feel like they've accomplished something in the few hours they have to play. If they don't, they'll quit, and move on to a game that doesn't waste their time. And when enough of them quit, down goes the ship. Make no mistake, FFXI isn't guaranteed to live forever, especially with Square-Enix's streak of bad business decisions. FFXI has been heading in the right direction thanks to Matsui, and the last thing we need is to fall back into a Tanaka-style sadomasochistic relationship between the players and the devs.