Reasons Why FFXI is Declining

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Originally Posted by Creole

those and more, someone tried to charge me 600k just to proc red on Shinryu, just wish people thought about more than gil in this game. If things don't change once ffxiv comes out this game is gonna be doomed.

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Read my networking guide ^^. In this situation, you just have to find someone who needs the items too that can proc Red. I'm sure there are people since many want Twilight set for Delve.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Read my networking guide ^^. In this situation, you just have to find someone who needs the items too that can proc Red. I'm sure there are people since many want Twilight set for Delve.

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I dont know if there is a guide for networking with the elitist attitudes of these asura players. It's beyond crazy

Part of the reason why I am probably not going to be playing after my last month runs out is basically. I do not have a LS to do delve bosses with. This offers a level of equipment far beyond anything else in the game. Not being able to do high end content due to lack of hardcore linkshells left in the game is a big minus to me. If I can't be the best and do endgame content then I am just not going to play.

I been pretty hardcore with the game but not having a LS that does bosses is a big minus for me. SE doesn't really do anything to help players find linkshells. There is no official recruitment forums, there is no in game guild finder like other mmos have.

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Originally Posted by Creole

I dont know if there is a guide for networking with the elitist attitudes of these asura players. It's beyond crazy

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I'm sure not everyone has an elitist attitude =/. There's gotta be some people in game you can team up with and get to know. I just stated important points in my guide that could change the outcome of your problem.

From EXP, missions, Assault, Linkshell, WoE, VW, Sky, Einherjar and several other events that take place. There's gotta be some people you can get to know.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Part of the reason why I am probably not going to be playing after my last month runs out is basically. I do not have a LS to do delve bosses with. This offers a level of equipment far beyond anything else in the game. Not being able to do high end content due to lack of hardcore linkshells left in the game is a big minus to me. If I can't be the best and do endgame content then I am just not going to play.

I been pretty hardcore with the game but not having a LS that does bosses is a big minus for me. SE doesn't really do anything to help players find linkshells. There is no official recruitment forums, there is no in game guild finder like other mmos have.

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I told you to message me in game about it though. I'm sure I can ask a few people.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Part of the reason why I am probably not going to be playing after my last month runs out is basically. I do not have a LS to do delve bosses with. This offers a level of equipment far beyond anything else in the game. Not being able to do high end content due to lack of hardcore linkshells left in the game is a big minus to me. If I can't be the best and do endgame content then I am just not going to play.

I been pretty hardcore with the game but not having a LS that does bosses is a big minus for me. SE doesn't really do anything to help players find linkshells. There is no official recruitment forums, there is no in game guild finder like other mmos have.

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if you have a bard or cor come to asura you will find a shout group easily. or even a dd with REM

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Originally Posted by Daemon

I told you to message me in game about it though. I'm sure I can ask a few people.

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I mean doing stuff like Tojil, Dakuwaqa, and Muyingwa. I did join a couple pick up Tojil runs and they didn't go well at all.

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Originally Posted by Creole

if you have a bard or cor come to asura you will find a shout group easily. or even a dd with REM

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Lol Zumi is not looking for shout groups. She looking for THE end game linkshells that do end boss events.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I mean doing stuff like Tojil, Dakuwaqa, and Muyingwa. I did join a couple pick up Tojil runs and they didn't go well at all.

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Yeah but I know some friends that are making it happen.

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Lol Zumi is not looking for shout groups. She looking for THE end game linkshells that do end boss events.

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yes these shout groups do those bosses on asura... successful runs at that

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Originally Posted by Creole

yes these shout groups do those bosses on asura... successful runs at that

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Yeah what I meant was Zumi was looking for a Linkshell that's reliable and can be part of a family than wait all day in town for a shout group to happen. Hang out with people who are on the same level and can relate with each other.

We are on the same server :)

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Yeah what I meant was Zumi was looking for a Linkshell that's reliable and can be part of a family than wait all day in town for a shout group to happen. Hang out with people who are on the same level and can relate with each other.

We are on the same server :)

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"By doing Pioneers Coalition in Western Adoulin
You can do the quest "Clear the way" using 3 tags each Colonization Reive. This will net you 1,800 Bayld" not finding this quest on search aswell as the "blood thread"

Blood Thread one is the Inventor's Coalition. First Assignment, Rala Waterways.

BOOM CITY BRO

That should help ya out.

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Originally Posted by Almantia

You two get a room ^^

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Only if ya join me sweet pea turnabout is fair play

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Blood Thread one is the Inventor's Coalition. First Assignment, Rala Waterways.

BOOM CITY BRO

[/COLOR]

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thank you, i'm trying to enjoy this game but logging in to do nothing is starting to get to me.

nvm answered my own question there is no space inbetween blooodthread

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Originally Posted by Creole

"By doing Pioneers Coalition in Western Adoulin
You can do the quest "Clear the way" using 3 tags each Colonization Reive. This will net you 1,800 Bayld" not finding this quest on search aswell as the "blood thread"

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Yeah I'll add more details to better explain what I added.

Look for the quest Clearing the way
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Pioneers'_Coalition

As for bloodthread, I kept it vague as to let everyone know that the item is in demand at the moment. Sells pretty well. It was listed in FFXIAH. It was meant for people to look in the AH and see the price of the item. Check the date to see how well it sells.

http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Gather:_Rala_Waterways

Edit: I also did not want to ruin current in game players camp spot by posting direct areas.

As for dynamis... What's the point anymore? Currency now 3kish on our server.

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Originally Posted by Creole

my question is how do you sell them?

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Auction house under Clothcraft

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Originally Posted by Stompa

Aby expansion and the skill-up / level-up easymode options made people lazy imo. Turning up in Aby buttnaked and going afk for ages, too lazy to even open boxes, your only actual gaming achievement is turning the pages in a Dom ops book repeatedly for days on end. This kills the 'user input' aspect of being a gamer.
Turning pages in your pyjamas, is not the same as pre Aby xp parties where we were fighting imps and colibris etc. and you had to wear correct armor, not go afk, play your job right etc. Or in WOTG, campaign mobs would destroy you if you were afk and naked. This meant you had to be a gamer and not a naked leech. Attaining levels and skillups was a slow process, which trained you in playing your job, and was also important in learning party dynamics. It gave you a sense of accomplishment and self-worth, which is now entirely absent because you got lvl 99 in your underwear by clicking on a GOV npc a lot of times.
Many people including myself played FFxi originally because we wanted a more challenging game, with slow lvling and slow skill up, and structured tiered system of accomplishment. After 2010 this was nulled in various updates, to the point now you can get a lvl 99 War without ever using a weapon even once. That is where SE went wrong, they should have stayed with the original game mechanics. I think the only good thing they added since 2008 was level synch, because that allowed people to party when there wasnt a lvl appropriate tank seeking. After that, and especially in Soa, it has been downhill. I will continue to play this game as long as it is online, because I still enjoy the core content & love Vanadiel, but I miss the 04-09 era a lot.

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You hit the nail on the head. 90% of the existing content is now considered a joke and quite imbalanced. Also, there is no incentive to do such old content as well as rendering all of the existing equipment irrelevant. How does this effect an end gamer? Not much BUT it has a huge effect on NEW players. The reason why FFXI is failing is the lack of fresh blood to this game. Until you give new players a rewarding experience when they first enter Vanadiel (other then the "get to level 99 1st mantra" you won't have the retention that you need to keep the game going.

Want proof? Look at the lack of low level gear on the AH. Look at the current state of the economy. Last of all listen to the comments from new players who have played over a month (if you can find a handful of them). They are chased off by a steep learning curve that "Abby butt naked/page burning" syndrome has caused. They are handed slices of easy mode and get to 99 with ease... and they... SMACK, right into a huge learning curve of a wall called SoA endgame. Most get frustrated and quit due to the lack of a smooth transition from easy to hard. This is 101 of MMORPGs and I have no clue to why SE does not see this.

FFXI used to have this. You used to learn over time how a party worked instead of leeching. You learned how to do large scale events in CoP (due to the level caps it had). The level caps were a good thing (I know you are frothing at the mouth to tell me otherwise, but hear me out 1st and judge after). It allowed low level players to do things hand in hand with vets. It was not a perfect scenario however. I would have liked to see some form of a new LFP system to match players for missions and a larger inventory system so people could store gear sets easily for a level capped event. But those matters aside, it was a good idea.

My suggestion to the problem at hand doesn't take a quick fix but one that exists in several stages (all of which need to be functioning for it to work)

#1 Revamp the inventory/storage system (you can't do capped events easily if it takes you 3 hours to mule for gear)

#2 Slow down the rate of experience gain for books. The current (non book exp) rate is fine now, but the GoV books are not balanced at all. Tone down the rate of exp from a book and allow the bonus to act once per game day. Remove any buffs the books give because this harms the economy by making items like reraise earrings, protect rings etc worthless. Remove the HP and MP tick for the same reason above. I remember the days when yag drinks sold like hotcakes.

#3 To avoid leeching, limit Abby to level 75+ only. The large amount of exp gathered there is meant for higher level players who have more of an exp gap to fill then lower level players. Also limiting abby access will flood the market with vital synthing crystals that crafters depend on. It will also broaden the range of items that the AH lacks (like drops from lower level mobs all over vanadiel) because people will roam to level instead of sitting in mines using fell cleave all day.

#4 This is a big one. In order to make new players feel less rushed to get to 99, add events that cater to lower level players. And higher ones alike. Lets use an example to describe this (a poor one but it can get the point across). Campaign battles in WotG. If WotG was the starting area with low level mobs all around the zone but high level events happening during a campaign battle you could include new players in so many ways. Due to the statistics of FFXI we all know a low level player has no chance to help anyone in a battle situation in the main fight, however, the devs could say... make a small number of support enemies appear of low level that are in the large expanse of the zone. Maybe they can be triggered by clicking on a ??? that pops a level 20 set of mobs with a level cap on. The lower level players can defeat them and as a reward maybe say... the high player group could get extra buffs or even more treasure chests and a much increased loot pool due to the actions of the newbies. The newbies in turn could get gil or items appropriate to their level or even synthing loot that can be sold at the AH that can help high level players. In this way you sort of have a harmony of new and old players working together as common goal.

In order for this to work, the rewards need to stay up to date with the new content and not be left in the dust with now worthless items like that are in garrison and the like (in terms for higher level players). That way there is no need do design a mentality around needing to be a certain level to help your friends. A low level player feels like they are leeching from your higher level buddies at best. There should be someway for them to interact and return the favor. Without this, it gives a bad vibe to the game and doesn't make new players feel welcome among the rest of the population.

This is only one example... if you wish to have more... I could go on but this was the simplest one I could think of off the top of my head that could demonstrate such a thing.

I'm not new to MMOs or MMORPGs, I have seen them die over and over again due to many similar problems. I used to play Ultima Online back in the day and even Zork on the school's mainframe when I was young. I can still play these games and find them fun. The Nostigla goggles argument while valid sometimes... is often times a poor excuse to describe something that "worked" long ago and people enjoyed. Just because technology has changed do I enjoy a text based game any less? Not I. I still enjoy them. I still take out my CDs of Planescape Torment and play them with the very much the same joy now then I did 10+ years ago.

If nostliga was a common problem why would there be so many emulators around and roms? Did the people who enjoy those kinds of games suddenly drop off the earth. Nope. I think the opposite. You'll find plenty more gamers annoyed with games trying to cater to everyone's whim and becoming a clone, then just being creative and breaking away from the pack. FFXI did that for me and it still does... until of late.

I'm not new to MMOs or MMORPGs, I have seen them die over and over again due to many similar problems. I used to play Ultima Online back in the day and even Zork on the school's mainframe when I was young. I can still play these games and find them fun. The "Nostalgia goggles" argument while valid sometimes... is often times a poor excuse to describe something that "worked" long ago and people enjoyed. Just because technology has changed do I still enjoy a text based game any less? Not I. I still enjoy them. I still take out my CDs of Planescape Torment and play them with the very much the same joy now then I did 10+ years ago. The very same thing could apply to books vs. tablets.

If nostalgia was a common problem why would there be so many emulators around and roms? Did the people who enjoy those kinds of games suddenly drop off the earth. Nope. I think the opposite. You'll find plenty more gamers annoyed with games trying to cater to everyone's whim and becoming a clone, then just being creative and breaking away from the pack. FFXI did that for me and it still does... until of late. Instead of staying true to it's concept, it's trying to become a game it is not. A glance at the current leveling system is an example of this.

I know people will argue that MMOs should vastly change over time but I ask why? Why should they change their basic fundamentals? Shouldn't they design a new game or sequel if the wished to do so? Why not save those ground breaking items (of a non level based system for FF14) SoA was an expansion, abby too, it shouldn't have changed the core values of the game.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

snip.

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Sorry everything you mentioned would punish new players and reward high level end game players. Who cares how fast you level the game isnt hard to learn, switch gear, weaponskill, switch back. Not hard at all, only a few classes take more then a few button presses. Point is games are ruined by the community and as long as people continue to act the way they do new players will just leave before/after hitting 99.

I disagree :D, I agree with Stompa and Prrsha.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Never had a problem with the grind, but more of getting into groups so could make progress outside of farming up some gil or a NM item. Now, Level Sync was a good idea to alleviate the time looking for XP parties and so if one person leveled it didn't kill a whole party in off hours. Too bad it ended up more being used so groups could stay in one camp way longer than they should of. Anyone else remember East Ronfaure (S) level syncs for Colibri? Now with GoV burns and abyssea being the main ways to get XP, takes a lot of what was enjoyable out of the xp grind. Granted it is nice having that speed up as much as it is now, but that also takes out a lot of the fun of the journey along the way. How many remember their first trip to Jeuno, unescorted at 20? Or doing any missions before quite a few of them were made easy mode? Or any number of crazy things from trying to solo prime avatars to having Guivre sneak up on your XP party and plotting to get revenge later? Which makes me wonder, what things does a new player have to do that will leave lasting memories for them? Because those kind of things are what help get and keep a new player interested in playing.

With most if not all new content being aimed at old players, it really is no wonder that XI is loosing more players than it is gaining. Which makes me wonder how long till FFXI gets an expansion like WoW's Cataclysm to try and reinvigorate things for newer players, and give some new experiences to older players. As the new players need engaging content at all levels instead of just endgame. Which is why CoP is still my favorite expansion of FFXI, because even though some parts were very hard, it had events for most levels to participate in, compared to most of the others which have been primarily aimed at near end game leveled and geared players.

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Well said. People are looking through the eyes of a vet and not a new player. CoP was one of the few expansions that had content for just about every level above 30. SE could learn from this and not just add end game content next time but some new content and perks for lower level (newer players). This point becomes moot however when you can get to level 99 in 3 days sitting naked.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

Well said. People are looking through the eyes of a vet and not a new player. CoP was one of the few expansions that had content for just about every level above 30. SE could learn from this and not just add end game content next time but some new content and perks for lower level (newer players). This point becomes moot however when you can get to level 99 in 3 days sitting naked.

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With how easy it is to reach 99 it is not a smart business move to make content for a level that only A FEW people will benefit from. They need to make 99 content for all people not just end game Linkshells. That way once these new players hit 99 they will have something to look forward to and not be excluded from. Also abyssea should get some 99 upgrades that draw people back in there so new players can get some af3. Sum it up? Low level content? Pointless, end game content playable by all? Yes please.

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Originally Posted by Creole

With how easy it is to reach 99 it is not a smart business move to make content for a level that only A FEW people will benefit from. They need to make 99 content for all people not just end game Linkshells. That way once these new players hit 99 they will have something to look forward to and not be excluded from. Also abyssea should get some 99 upgrades that draw people back in there so new players can get some af3. Sum it up? Low level content? Pointless, end game content playable by all? Yes please.

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Please read my post before this one before replying. It sums it up the entire reason why "speed leveling" people to 99 is a bad idea. Otherwise... you are taking my quote out of its context.

Too many posters are getting cancer. It's killing off the player-base.

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Originally Posted by Plasticleg

Too many posters are getting cancer. It's killing off the player-base.

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NOT FOR LONG

Jaykay but really hope that this goes somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

A bunch of misconceptions and stuff

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All wrong. Slow grind exp parties were one of the worst things about this game. They don't teach people anything that they couldn't learn after capping their levels. Actually, a lot of what people do learn in parties is the wrong thing to do / expect once they hit level cap. They are a huge deterrent to new players. The idea that people have to level that way to learn their jobs is a complete lie.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

Please read my post before this one before replying. It sums it up the entire reason why "speed leveling" people to 99 is a bad idea. Otherwise... you are taking my quote out of its context.

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No, he was spot on. Everything you said was wrong.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

Well said. People are looking through the eyes of a vet and not a new player. CoP was one of the few expansions that had content for just about every level above 30. SE could learn from this and not just add end game content next time but some new content and perks for lower level (newer players). This point becomes moot however when you can get to level 99 in 3 days sitting naked.

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Indeed it does become moot when can hit 99 in 3 days, but often times for someone to be able to do that, they are either are a vet leveling a job or a mule, so know how to do it fast and likely have help from friends or LS members, or they have a vet that introduced them to the game helping them. Brand new players often don't have those resources to make the jump to 99 in 3 days, not to mention Limit breaks and lack of easy travel methods slowing them down.

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Originally Posted by Creole

With how easy it is to reach 99 it is not a smart business move to make content for a level that only A FEW people will benefit from. They need to make 99 content for all people not just end game Linkshells. That way once these new players hit 99 they will have something to look forward to and not be excluded from. Also abyssea should get some 99 upgrades that draw people back in there so new players can get some af3. Sum it up? Low level content? Pointless, end game content playable by all? Yes please.

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It is equally not a smart business move to rely on your new players having to have veteran assistance to be able to enjoy the game early on, when most decide if they will keep playing or not. The key is not designing content for either new or old players, but for all players. If you only keep designing new end game content regardless of how accessible it is, it does nothing to ensure new players reach said endgame content.

Something that would work well for an expansion that would appeal to both new and old players, would be an expansion with a couple new jobs introduced, maybe even basic jobs instead of advanced, with an engaging story line and rewards that improve with level that are also tied to the story. Say for example something like Rajas ring, but the level cap for its improvements are tied to how far in the story you have progressed. Using Rajas and CoP mile stones as an example. Say lv 30 Rajas after beat the first 3 promys, lv 40 after Ouryu, lv 50 after Vazhl, and lv 65 upon gaining Sea access, and level 75 when completed. Keeping the variable stats and level 30 equip requirment for all stages, but having an initial reward being available early on instead of only at the very end.

Or even taking stuff introduced in SoA for end game, but also having some smaller and lower level ones scattered around elsewhere that newer players could do to start earning bayld and plasm without having to be rushed up to 99 to participate.

The overall point is, new players need more than just leveling to do in that crucial newbie stage where they decide if they want to keep playing or not. As remember they only get 30 RL days of free play time, not 30 days of actual playtime, so depending on their schedules and other commitments, you could be looking at less than 3 days of play time to actually hook them.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

I'm not new to MMOs or MMORPGs, I have seen them die over and over again due to many similar problems. I used to play Ultima Online back in the day and even Zork on the school's mainframe when I was young. I can still play these games and find them fun. The Nostigla goggles argument while valid sometimes... is often times a poor excuse to describe something that "worked" long ago and people enjoyed. Just because technology has changed do I enjoy a text based game any less? Not I. I still enjoy them. I still take out my CDs of Planescape Torment and play them with the very much the same joy now then I did 10+ years ago.

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I still got my old copies of Baldur's Gate 1&2 & planescape torment too lol, and play them. And Attic Attack on spectrum 48k although it doesnt load very well now (it never did!) Your point on old games is excellant, the truth is that if a game is a great game it becomes a classic, it will never stop being a classic, even if newer games have better graphics or w/e. Ffxi is undoubtably a classic game, it will never stop being a classic game, it just gets superseded in the mainstream by newer eyecandy lolgames like 14.
I agree totally with you, Aby should have been lvl 75+ from the start, people under 75 should xp in the old areas, and I don't just mean Gusgen/CN. Me and my friend still lvl in Aydeewa Subterrane in 2013, at the appropriate level. Its a beautiful area and of course now it is empty all the time. Xping in level appropriate areas got people to explore Vanadiel and enjoy the scenery and learn about where everything is. The desert for beetles on the rock, QC spiders, MZ trolls etc.. Troll xp parties were awesome because trolls are one of the best designed mobs to look at, and I used to actually look forward to xping (imagine that!) when we were doing trolls up on the battlements.
SE got it right when they added high lvl GOV mobs to old areas last year~, they should hold that thought and try to keep the old areas relevant to ppl. When SoA was announced I was hoping it would be like Wotg with mobs you can kill at lvl 20 like the saplings outside Bastokmarkets[s], all the way up to enemy generals storming the Allied held areas with troops. Imo both Toau and Wotg were masterpieces, they had a lot of depth, atmosphere and storyline and made you feel involved in the ongoing battlefields as an individual rpg character. Its actually quite heartbreaking to see Campaign npc heroes with their individual trademark /saymode but nobody is there to hear it, coz theyre all in leechburn pts looking at the walls.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

It is equally not a smart business move to rely on your new players having to have veteran assistance to be able to enjoy the game early on, when most decide if they will keep playing or not. The key is not designing content for either new or old players, but for all players. If you only keep designing new end game content regardless of how accessible it is, it does nothing to ensure new players reach said endgame content.

Something that would work well for an expansion that would appeal to both new and old players, would be an expansion with a couple new jobs introduced, maybe even basic jobs instead of advanced, with an engaging story line and rewards that improve with level that are also tied to the story. Say for example something like Rajas ring, but the level cap for its improvements are tied to how far in the story you have progressed. Using Rajas and CoP mile stones as an example. Say lv 30 Rajas after beat the first 3 promys, lv 40 after Ouryu, lv 50 after Vazhl, and lv 65 upon gaining Sea access, and level 75 when completed. Keeping the variable stats and level 30 equip requirment for all stages, but having an initial reward being available early on instead of only at the very end.

Or even taking stuff introduced in SoA for end game, but also having some smaller and lower level ones scattered around elsewhere that newer players could do to start earning bayld and plasm without having to be rushed up to 99 to participate.

The overall point is, new players need more than just leveling to do in that crucial newbie stage where they decide if they want to keep playing or not. As remember they only get 30 RL days of free play time, not 30 days of actual playtime, so depending on their schedules and other commitments, you could be looking at less than 3 days of play time to actually hook them.

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Agreed. Another thing that puzzled me in FFXI is lack of experience points for completing quests. If you want to immerse new players in the storyline in FFXI, non repeatable quests can go a long way. The problem is the existing player base tends to (when new players ask for help) tell them to just leech their way to 99 to solve most of their woes. This leech form of leveling is a form of an exploit on the parts of the game... be they Fell Cleave or Abby early access. If SE INTENDS to have a working leveling system, they need to fix the exploits in them. If SE has no wish for a FUNCTIONING level based system, they need to abandon it. There is no need to sit on the fence about it. It just makes the game look broken to new players. Currently the rate of exp gained is fine outside of the 2 before mentioned exploits but I am sure some players can name a few others as well. These are the most common however.

EXP for quest completion would be nicer then getting say... an outdated Linen Robe as a reward. It would help speed up the leveling process but not by huge amounts.

Regarding your comment about new players not knowing how to get to level 99 in a few days... Most catch on pretty quick because they begin to ask around. Questions like this arise:

"Where is everyone?"
"Why is this area so empty? Do people go elsewhere to level?"
"Why am I leveling so slow and my friend is already 30 levels above me?"

When asked that in a shout, most players either tend to tell the player how to exploit level (step by step) or they point them to a wiki which explains the same thing. So yes, new players do know how to level that fast, they just don't learn what to do with the skills they have acquired until later in endgame (where it matters most). At that point it is sink or swim for the newbee. They either can't grasp the learning curve (or don't want to invest the time in doing so) then quit.

As for casual players, the ride for them sort of ends at end game.... since they have advanced there so fast, they feel that they have run out of casual things to do. Everything seems so serious and even if they wish to do a casual event, they can't find anyone interested in them because the rewards for them are so worthless.

SE needs to take a step back and retool their existing content for newer players. I am by no means saying that there should be LESS endgame content but I am saying that there is a great need for worthwhile newbee content. One that teaches them how to play the game, not how to leech from it.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Stuff, conjecture. I like Pie. I use the word "slow grind" in every post. Everything you said was wrong.

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Really? Every single word? Every single letter of every single word? To make such a statement defies the logic of ceiling cat. As such, -1 internet for you.

In the words of no no no cat... NO NO NO!

Also... if slow grinding is slow, and by contrast you are implying that means you like fast grinding, but fast grinding is still grinding is it not? Fast and Slow are extremes. The speed to me is not so much the issue as the quality and skill used to level. Exploit leveling just warps the system into something it was not designed to be. I don't like the rate of exp gain when Tanaka was around but I like the current speed. I don't like the lazy exploits however because well... SE might as well place a button on the screen that says "Press to be level 99 now".

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Originally Posted by Plasticleg

Too many posters are getting cancer. It's killing off the player-base.

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Is cancer killing the posters? Or are the posters causing cancer? If so, they must be giving each other cancer. I'd recommend a quarantine on =10. Next patient!

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

Agreed. Another thing that puzzled me in FFXI is lack of experience points for completing quests.

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This is a great idea, but SE was always afraid that someone would exploit this to level faster. If it only rewards exp once, then it will not make people want to help you. If it does then SE will make it horrible to ensure that it can't be exploited.

***For some reason they are not willing to piss people off by adding a good amount of reward and then scaling it back if it becomes a problem, but they are perfectly willing to piss off their most dedicated customers by nerfing things that they have put incredible time / effort into.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

"Where is everyone?"

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There are mostly AFK in cities. It has been this way since the game began.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

"Why is this area so empty?

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Because groups form in cities where large numbers of people have access to job changes, equipment, home points and auction houses for last minute food, medicine and gear purchases. It has been this way since the game began.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

"Do people go elsewhere to level?"

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with the exception of the dunes and kahzaam where people hung out because they had a hard time getting to / from the zones at that level, everyone usually hung out in jeuno waiting for a party just like they do now. It has been this way ever since the game began.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

"Why am I leveling so slow and my friend is already 30 levels above me?"

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Why do you care? Do you want to be level 99? or do you want to party? If you are in it for the experience then form a party and don't worry about getting super fast exp. If all you care about is leveling up then go do what he's doing.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

They either can't grasp the learning curve (or don't want to invest the time in doing so) then quit.

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Well at least they got to level a job. They used to hit that wall and quit at level 40 or so before.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

As for casual players, the ride for them sort of ends at end game.... since they have advanced there so fast, they feel that they have run out of casual things to do. Everything seems so serious and even if they wish to do a casual event, they can't find anyone interested in them because the rewards for them are so worthless.

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Yeah, what happened to the good old days when end game was super casual. All you had to do was schedule 10 hours a week around helping 15-30 other people build a huge mound of cash for one complete stranger who would inevitably take the money and run at the end. Or spend 7 hours a night standing in one spot waiting for the chance to be disappointed when the same bot claims that 21-24 hour spawn NM for the 9th day in a row while missing out on RL because the linkshell leader said he would kick you out of the shell and delete all your points if you missed another window this month.

Ahhh the casual days...

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

SE needs to take a step back and retool their existing content for newer players.

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They do. But not this part. The exp changes are great for new players.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

I am by no means saying that there should be LESS endgame content but I am saying that there is a great need for worthwhile newbee content. One that teaches them how to play the game, not how to leech from it.

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Exp parties are still here. To be honest, they are probably not much harder to start now than they were then. The only difference is the reason. In the old days you couldn't find people because leveling was tedious and most people didn't want to do it, either that or they were the wrong levels / jobs. Now you can't find people because leveling is tedious and most people would rather skip through it.

The difference is that now people don't level in parties because they choose not to instead of not leveling because they can't.

TLDR; Dead horse debate. They are not getting rid of abyssea parties.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

Regarding your comment about new players not knowing how to get to level 99 in a few days... Most catch on pretty quick because they begin to ask around. Questions like this arise:

"Where is everyone?"
"Why is this area so empty? Do people go elsewhere to level?"
"Why am I leveling so slow and my friend is already 30 levels above me?"

When asked that in a shout, most players either tend to tell the player how to exploit level (step by step) or they point them to a wiki which explains the same thing. So yes, new players do know how to level that fast, they just don't learn what to do with the skills they have acquired until later in endgame (where it matters most). At that point it is sink or swim for the newbee. They either can't grasp the learning curve (or don't want to invest the time in doing so) then quit.

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Which comes back to your new players having to rely on the vets to get going. Eventually the new players that like the game will find out how to do things, but I think a good game design would be one that would allow them to get hooked on the game without having to rely on outside assistance in that critical introduction time period. A good example is a friend of mine that started when I returned to the game, his biggest complaint was being so lost when I could not help him out with things. That being from getting initial gear, quests he could do, where to explore. FFXI is one of the few MMOs that barely holds the newbies' hands, and at one point in its history it did not at all.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

TLDR; Dead horse debate. They are not getting rid of abyssea parties.

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They don't need to get rid of Abyssea parties or GoV burns, but they do need some engaging and entertaining content for new players. As rushing to 99 to just start a gear grind is not going to keep many new players around. Let them level as fast or as slow as they want, but at least give them more options with meaningful rewards for this new quick leveling style of FFXI.

Going to use that linen robe quest mentioned earlier as an example, before there might of been a use to it for a very new player, but now its not really worth it, as it is quite possible they either found something close in a brown casket or they will have leveled way past the item by the time they get the reputation and do all the leg work for the quest.

So how do you make quests like that worthwhile for a newbie, considering how fast one levels now? For one, would have to rework the fame system, two would likely need to start having quest items have useful augments, and three add some universal rewards such as Gil, XP, conquest points, or beastman seals to them.

We have this vast wasteland of unused content now, even back when FFXI was newer, quite a few places went unused. Just think of all the zones you don't do anything besides Voidwatch or just passing through now. Like when was the last time you went to Toraimarai Canal outside of doing something like Fenrir?

Point trying to make is that outside of leveling, a newbie does not have much to do until they hit 99 and have to start participating in the gear grind. How do you engage and hook a player when all they have to look forward to in their initial exposure to the game is grinding, followed by more grinding?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Stuff.

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If you put as much energy in posting solutions for the problem at hand then just shooting them down at a whim with no hard evidence... FFXI would be a paradise by now.

Some people are just doom and gloom and the slightest suggestion of improving a system (which everyone I think here admits is broken now and dying fast) makes some froth with malcontent.

Complaining serves no purpose then to demoralize or flame the community unless you can post an alternative that would fix the current newbee problem (and other problems) at hand. Proclaiming everyone has rose colored glasses on (a metaphor many have used in the past) is subjective at best. Plus proclaiming everything is black or white, 100% right or wrong, serves no purpose either and garners no credibility on your part.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the thread at hand is not really about that. It is about what can be done to help save FFXI with creative ideas. Doing anything else is just mucking up the forums with flames/gibberish/rooted opinions and makes it that much harder for the devs to wade through the mess to gleam any gems from it.

Pearls before swine...

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Why do you care? Do you want to be level 99? or do you want to party? If you are in it for the experience then form a party and don't worry about getting super fast exp. If all you care about is leveling up then go do what he's doing.

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The quote you quoted was not my own but one I have heard echoed many times by others... hence if you read the text before those quotes you'd see that.

I am not quite sure if you are asking me that question personally or just in general to a comment made by another?

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

How do you engage and hook a player when all they have to look forward to in their initial exposure to the game is grinding, followed by more grinding?

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Do like they did with atmas in abyssea. Give them some stat bonuses that carry over permanently though. Like say
"complete this quest gain +5 max MP" and
"complete this quest, gain 10 max HP" or
"Do this mission line, earn one free retrace spell every day" or
"Do this mission, earn 1 level in the craft of your choice"
"Do this quest to earn a discount on chocobo rentals"
"Do this quest to earn a discount on NPC warps"
etc.

There could be a million little bonuses like that, none of which would be game breaking, but all of which would make playing the game a little easier and round out your character a little. Even high level players would jump on some of those.

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Originally Posted by AJ666

I disagree :D, I agree with Stompa and Prrsha.

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Me too I have to agree with both.

No matter if it takes you 2 hours to grind or 6 hours to grind. You are still grinding. However, the way you progressed is totally different now than before.

You can argue how hard it is to find a group.
We still have that problem today. Just in different ways now than before.. VW, Eibherjar, Assault, Limbus, sky? Who does sky as a group anymore?

We have different types of players in FFXI. Some like the grind to be laid back where you can hang out with 5 other people all day and talk about all sorts of stuff. Be there to appreciate the level you gained and try out that new gear set, weapon you were holding for the moment you leveled up. Try out that new job ability, WS in front of those people in your party, or that brand new spell youve been dying to use since spending an entire week from exping just to farm and save up enough gil to buy all your gear for the next few levels.

To us, it was wasnt about the exp. Because exping to us is like going to your job. Yeah some of us don't like to go to work but do we have any choice? Gotta earn that money for bills right? Or else fall behind and get no where.

So yeah, exp was just one of those things that had to be done, yet our focus was more on the atmosphere, the people, the adventure.


Then you got people who find leveling is a chore and just wanna get it done and over with. Because they have millions of other things to do, exping was only holding them back. Especially when you start seeing your friends you started out with surpass you and move on.

Kinda like being held back a grade only to see everyone move forward without you.

Then there's people who can play more than 6 hours a day.
While you have those who only have 1-2 hours a night. Some only on the weekend.

To those who like the new direction. It's because in a sense you feel like you are progressing. Hey I just got 75 levels in today.

Boy I got 99 today, can finally switch over to a new job and start leveling that for VW. While my other job is for Dyna.

Which there is nothing wrong with that because we all have different reasons and different expectations of how we want to play a game that we are paying for.

However. When some people say "Actually spend time learning how to play the job"

It's not them saying everyone doesn't know how to play the job. It's that rather spending 8-12 hours leveling to 99 in an 18 man alliance, we stay for hours trying out different skillchains, learning how to use different gear sets, figure out which food was the best for different areas and camps. Look up monster information to see weaknesses. Explore different areas together trying to figure out where would be the best place to level.

And yeah to us, moving from dunes to Jeuno, figuring out how to get to the new city and do the quests like chocobo license.. Leveling in Qifim to Lower Delkfutts to Kahzam getting lost in yuhtunga and yhoater, sea serpents grotto to exploring norg together, then moving to garlaige citadel, gustav tunnel on to Altepa to labyrinth of onzonzo to Temple of Uggalpeh to Kuftal tunnel to cape terrigan on to sky...

The point that they were trying to make was the game is not like that anymore. I remember so many times I got lost in yhoater jungle, the entire party got lost too, spend so much time just to get to the spot safely.

Or how many people fell down the hole in Garlaige citadel? Or the infamous mob train at the entrance of crawlers near?

Back then we had more fun enjoying the entire game exploring different areas together with friends, small exp groups than today's. gather together jueno lets just do it already and be done with it 18 man grind, or quick gear that anyone can get in a day really. Cough.. Delve...

Remember back in the day leveling in dunes, Valkurm emperor sometimes spawned on your group out of nowhere and wiped everyone out who couldn't run fast enough to Selbina?

Or everyone running back to the entrance of Qufim at night because ghouls and banshee would spawn and wipe everyone out. Oh look that taru whm... run for it.... oh dam... another one that didnt make it...


Death was fun back then. I lost count of how many different ways I died.. Some pretty dumb, some very funny...

For what its worth FFXI Quests don't give exp because this MMO came before that trend. I mean, Its no excuse not to add quests in later expansions that give exp, but retroactively doing it would require more manpower (and they'd f**k it up) than I'd think worth the effort.

Plus, they attempted to add exp/quest rewards with all dem OPs and crap... Just rather ineffectively as expected.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Do like they did with atmas in abyssea. Give them some stat bonuses that carry over permanently though. Like say
"complete this quest gain +5 max MP" and
"complete this quest, gain 10 max HP" or
"Do this mission line, earn one free retrace spell every day" or
"Do this mission, earn 1 level in the craft of your choice"
"Do this quest to earn a discount on chocobo rentals"
"Do this quest to earn a discount on NPC warps"
etc.

There could be a million little bonuses like that, none of which would be game breaking, but all of which would make playing the game a little easier and round out your character a little. Even high level players would jump on some of those.

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Exactly, that would be the kind of stuff they could add in an expansion or update that revamps a lot of older content on top of adding new endgame content that would involve all players. And if the quests and missions were engaging, would do a whole lot more for retaining what new players do get brought into FFXI. If I was designing the game, would likely limit those kind of rewards to quests like the linen robe one mentioned earlier(disposable gear quests), and some of the missions, mostly because some with more permanent rewards like spell scrolls or something like Rajas ring don't need the extra oomph to them.

Now if only the tutorial for new players got updated again on top of something like that, might start seeing some growth in the player base.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Do like they did with atmas in abyssea. Give them some stat bonuses that carry over permanently though. Like say
"complete this quest gain +5 max MP" and
"complete this quest, gain 10 max HP" or
"Do this mission line, earn one free retrace spell every day" or
"Do this mission, earn 1 level in the craft of your choice"
"Do this quest to earn a discount on chocobo rentals"
"Do this quest to earn a discount on NPC warps"
etc.

There could be a million little bonuses like that, none of which would be game breaking, but all of which would make playing the game a little easier and round out your character a little. Even high level players would jump on some of those.

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I'm still waiting for them to fix Nexus Cape. :(

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Originally Posted by Omegablue

IKNEW IT, YOU'RE A STARCADE SOCK PUPPET AREN'T YOU! ADMIT IT!

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I actually had to wiki this.... lol I never knew a game like this existed......