Pld Emnity/hate distribution chages?

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Originally Posted by Leviticus

Easy fix.
Level 50 PLD Job Trait: Enmity Boost
Boost Enmity generated from any action.

Level 50 PLD Job Ability: Sanctuary
Boost party's defense slightly and redirects half enmity generated by any party member to caster.

Level 90 PLD Spell (66MP): Divine Wrath
Attacks, blocks, and parries deal light damage. This damage generates extremely high enmity. 7 charges

The reason for level 50 is so the abilities are not gained by from subjob. All or a few of those would be great. Or the easiest fix: give pld provoke at level 50.

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This isn't a fix at all. You just plain don't understand.


Again.

Why even have a pld in the pt when a DD can tank and deal damage at the same time. Enmity isn't the issue. They can have all the hate they want in the world, but if the job can be done w/o a pld in the pt, there is no reason to have a pld.

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Originally Posted by Orson

Pld is one of the hardest jobs to fix at the moment. There's really no need for a tank. Even prior to Abyssea having a Pld was more or less a safety net against bad stuff from happening. I'm not hating on the job either. I love it have it leveled but tanks are just next to impossible to make useful unless you either nerf melee damage enmity and/or make melee take way more damage. That would make a lot of angry people I would think.

The other option is to buff Pld but how? Make it do more damage or heal more? Then it outclasses other jobs that sole function is to damage or heal. It's very hard to do with keeping balance.

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While I do see where you're coming from, the problem is that currently any DD job doesn't stay within it's designated role of "just DD". Every DD (especially Empy wielding ones) is expected to tank to a degree. Whether it's a NIN sub with capped haste gear (which is now easier than ever to obtain) and/or PDT/MDT sets... just about any DD can step outside it's original intent and tank.

Where does this leave PLD? At a disadvantage, seeing as how we have 0 offensive traits/abilities. Almace definately narrows the gap, but a little boost elsewhere wouldn't be unwelcome. Like I mentioned in the other threads, a trait of some variety that lowers weapon delay on par with NIN's dual wield or MNK's martial arts would go a long way to putting PLD where it belongs, without forcing the user to get an Almace.

Edit: lol didn't realize this thread was 13 pages long... I'm a tad late to the party. But nonetheless, the changes mentioned is an answer Cream_Soda's question. Make PLD a competant DD as well as tank, and from that point on player skill/gear will be the only factor to consider when choosing what job to play.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

This isn't a fix at all. You just plain don't understand.


Again.

Why even have a pld in the pt when a DD can tank and deal damage at the same time. Enmity isn't the issue. They can have all the hate they want in the world, but if the job can be done w/o a pld in the pt, there is no reason to have a pld.

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I agree. Further to that, a PLD can't truly DD and 'tank' at the same time. A PLD tanks by getting smacked in the face. A properly geared PLD can tremendously reduce damage bloodtanking anything now. Unfortunately... to do this you have to give up every bit of your DD gear that even with an Almace puts you behind an equally geared DD.

And this is about damage taken. Now a days lots of the harder mobs have en-effects that are nasty as hell, and the trick to winning is not getting hit.

The fix to pld, w/e it is, goes beyond just a simple damage increase, or defense increase, or enmity tools increase. It'll likely need to see some sort of element that the game hasn't seen yet.

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Originally Posted by Naix

I agree. Further to that, a PLD can't truly DD and 'tank' at the same time. A PLD tanks by getting smacked in the face. A properly geared PLD can tremendously reduce damage bloodtanking anything now. Unfortunately... to do this you have to give up every bit of your DD gear that even with an Almace puts you behind an equally geared DD.

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A PLD tanks by avoiding hits with /NIN, like most other DD tanks. And abilities like Reprisal, Shield Bash, and Sentinal/phalanx only make that easier. It's entirely unnecessary to stay in turtle gear while Utsusemi is up.

Only time I'd go /WAR is if the mobs are easy, or if you got Ochain. At which point, you can't die even if you try.

enmity/defensive and atk increases are out of the question.
PLD can already mitigate more than 50% of both magic and physical dmg without a relic and empyrean.
PLD can already generate a lot of enmity. Its just useless when you have melee also capping enmity chart and slapping the mob around.
Sure, increase PLD's attack ability to that of WAR and MNK and NIN. That way instead of having 1 useless job that never sees any action, we will have every melee sitting on the bench.

like Soda said, you need to make having a pld in party/alliance B E N E F I C I A L.
You can gimp every other job to achieve this.
or you can pump some steroids into PLD and as a consequence make every other melee job obsolete.
Or you can think outside the box and start giving PLD abilities/spells/job traits that do not rely on current game mechanics.
Or just put the job out of its misery and delete it.
This isnt hard. Give PLD an Aura effect... different stances with different aura effects?
How about an ability that is the inverse of charm. Instead of getting the mob's loyalty, you get its focused attention for a period of time.
how about giving PLD the ability to stagger mobs without procing !!'s? even outside abyssea?
SE demonstrated they could be creative with jobs when they introduced DNC.
I have a lil faith, and am pretty sure all this PLD waa waa waa will force 'em to do something.
I am just worried they will end up screwing everyone else over by trying to fix pld.

Cursed, even back when Atonement spam was king and PLD's contributed significant dmg over the course of an HNM fight (like Cerberus for example), when was the last time you saw a PLD burn? Nothing but support and an alliance of PLD's spamming Atonement on any given NM and shelfing every other DD in the game?

I'm willing to bet that's never happened.

A damage output buff would go a long way towards allowing non-Almace PLD's to be competant in doing what we were designed to do in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

Cursed, even back when Atonement spam was king and PLD's contributed significant dmg over the course of an HNM fight (like Cerberus for example), when was the last time you saw a PLD burn? Nothing but support and an alliance of PLD's spamming Atonement on any given NM and shelfing every other DD in the game?

I'm willing to bet that's never happened.




A damage output buff would go a long way towards allowing non-Almace PLD's to be competant in doing what we were designed to do in the first place.

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Every cerberus/fafnir/nidhogg/tiamat/khimaira only ever needed 1-2 plds, 1xbrd, 1xrdm, 1x TH and a BLM if you wanted to speed things up or had to stun fulm/goh.
You didn't need any melee jobs at all, and those of us that were smart didn't recruit anymore members than we absolutely needed. we never had a bunch of melee spamming ws's and raping shit. towards the end of the HNM scene we didn't even have plds spamming atonement anymore. Why would you when 2-3 Ammano's spamming Kaiten lowered the duration of the fight by 2/3rds.
Looking back, the lack of need for all the melee and indeed many other jobs is why they implemented the stagger !! system in abyssea. They couldn't balance the game so they just made content a lot more specific.

If you give PLD the ability to do dmg on par with war/mnk/nin you are just returning the game to the way it was pre-abyssea. Other than procs, you won't need any other job, ever.
what would an ochain/almace PLD even need with an LS? could just solo everything with a whm mule being dual boxed.

First, I want to say I'm not sure how all the endgame stuff works because I was level 68 PLD when Abyssea came out. So if this idea is just ridiculous, my mistake =] but, after reading some of the suggestions, and the posts right after burning them down, I thought of one, maybe? Not sure if anyone else has already thought of it, but what if PLD got a spell or JA that would essentially "lock" the monster on to you regardless of enmity? I heard that if someone uses provoke in ballista, the other player is automatically "locked" on you, like along those lines is what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Elonial

First, I want to say I'm not sure how all the endgame stuff works because I was level 68 PLD when Abyssea came out. So if this idea is just ridiculous, my mistake =] but, after reading some of the suggestions, and the posts right after burning them down, I thought of one, maybe? Not sure if anyone else has already thought of it, but what if PLD got a spell or JA that would essentially "lock" the monster on to you regardless of enmity? I heard that if someone uses provoke in ballista, the other player is automatically "locked" on you, like along those lines is what I mean.

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I actually like this idea. PLD has always needed a native kind of provoke, this would be even more efficient. Although I don't know if it could be called cheating, it does sound a bit overpowered. Maybe with longer recast, 10s duration, 2min recast or something, for emergencies.

Thanks Arcon ^^ I didn't think about how it could be considered overpowered, I see that now though. I only thought about when we were inside Abyssea with all of the super powered DD's. Trying to hold anything while they're going at it seems like a feat in itself haha.

That idea fails to address what Cream_Soda has been saying all this time. I'll reiterate it in a different way so maybe people will get the point.

We do NOT need help holding hate. We never did.

What we need is a reason to have a PLD in the party instead of a DD tank. Justification.


Holding hate 100% of the time might make you feel like you're tanking... but really, what's the point? If a DD, even a sub par DD can survive the mob's damage and deal more damage than you, they speed up the fight. And as we all know in abyssea, time is money. The playerbase doesn't want a safer fight, they want a faster fight. So how can PLD speed things up?

Damage.
It not only speeds the fight up, it is easily the best hate tool in the game. I'm not saying that we have to upset the job balance and become the #1 DD's as well as tanks (although elitist mentallity will take nothing less than #1... but there's no satisfying them anyway.)
Any type of dmg buff would be a step in the right direction, no matter how big/small it is. If you're dealing significant dmg to help speed things up (and tank), that's all anyone can ask for.


And as the icing on the cake, how about a little perspective?
Even RDM has Composure (it's used for buff duration, but it does give them accuracy.)

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

That idea fails to address what Cream_Soda has been saying all this time. I'll reiterate it in a different way so maybe people will get the point.

We do NOT need help holding hate. We never did.

What we need is a reason to have a PLD in the party instead of a DD tank. Justification.


Holding hate 100% of the time might make you feel like you're tanking... but really, what's the point? If a DD, even a sub par DD can survive the mob's damage and deal more damage than you, they speed up the fight. And as we all know in abyssea, time is money. The playerbase doesn't want a safer fight, they want a faster fight. So how can PLD speed things up?

Damage.
It not only speeds the fight up, it is easily the best hate tool in the game. I'm not saying that we have to upset the job balance and become the #1 DD's as well as tanks (although elitist mentallity will take nothing less than #1... but there's no satisfying them anyway.)
Any type of dmg buff would be a step in the right direction, no matter how big/small it is. If you're dealing significant dmg to help speed things up (and tank), that's all anyone can ask for.

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People need to stop using that argument. PLD does not need to deal more damage. Right now PLDs aren't used, because right now the game is unbalanced, not the job. Old content is, well, old, and not much of a challenge either way. New content is Abyssea, and thus not a challenge at all. Talking about balance in these times is pointless, there's nothing SE will do, because there's no point. All they need to do is wait, or rather, that's all we need to do. Once there's new content coming out, WHM won't be able to tank anymore, and the demand for PLDs will rise again.

Old content is easy because of the low level, so anything can be blink or even blood tanked by pretty much any job. It's why no one set up a 6-man party at 75 to kill Leaping Lizzy, there was simply no need for it. Current content is high level, but easy because of ridiculously overpowered buffs. All we have to do now, is hope that SE introduces new content, that is a combination of both: high level, but no crazy buffs. Then damage mitigation will be an issue again, or more precisely MP conservation. That will be the justification you're looking for.

Abyssea is just a temporary thing, it was nothing but that from day one. Something to hold us over until final end game content is introduced. Getting so worked up over it is pointless, just use this time to pimp out your PLD for when it gets to shine again.

On topic though, I realized I didn't even post it here, enmity is still broken as it is now (even outside of Abyssea, and it will be on higher-level content as well). I made a new suggestion to modify the current enmity system here. Uncapped enmity is the only real way to go in my opinion, it would fix a lot of the problems the current enmity system holds.

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

And as the icing on the cake, how about a little perspective?
Even RDM has Composure (it's used for buff duration, but it does give them accuracy.)

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That helps their damage about as much as Shield Bash and Reprisal do to our own, even if those don't count for enmity. Just saying, a little Accuracy boost can't be called a DD ability. RDM was just always an odd job at that.

For some reason you really do seem to think Paladin takes less damage than other jobs.

It doesn't. Not without an Ochain. But, that said, Ochain is just brokenly awesome to begin with.

Tell me something Arcon... do you really think this DD tank mentallity is going to go away?

It wasn't just abyssea that created this imbalance. It was also the cap increase. Your WHM's have convert, your RDM's have Refresh 2, BRDs with Ballad 3, etc.

With a little support in the MP department, the MNK tank will live on post abyssea.

That's why this problem needs to be addressed now. Not wait for SE to offer it up on a silver plater. And considering we just got skipped over in favor of buffing DRK (and a potential nerf in crit WS's, which hurts us further).... I wouldn't hold your breathe waiting for an answer.

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

(and a potential nerf in crit WS's, which hurts us further)

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No, it's already been addressed here on the forums... that's going to apply to enemies only.
Otherwise I agree with your post.

Let's also not forget that our white mages have up to +7MP per tic (without using stuff like poison taster's cape, etc) in idle gear nowadays.

SE will only fix PLD when their are enough "PLD is dead" cries.
Problem is, every time we get a rally started, someone comes onto these forums and starts the "NO PLD IS NOT DEAD I HAVE THE SOLUTION" derail.
I've been tanking since 2003. PLD is not ok the way it is now. The current reality makes Earth Staffed Byakko and Seiryu days look like the golden age.
PLD IS DEAD.

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Originally Posted by Cursed

SE will only fix PLD when their are enough "PLD is dead" cries.
Problem is, every time we get a rally started, someone comes onto these forums and starts the "NO PLD IS NOT DEAD I HAVE THE SOLUTION" derail.
I've been tanking since 2003. PLD is not ok the way it is now. The current reality makes Earth Staffed Byakko and Seiryu days look like the golden age.
PLD IS DEAD.

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Pld is not dead. I have the solution.

Dead horse. Beaten. I promise the "Krystal method" of "Scream loud enough and make enough threads and eventually they'll fix it" doesn't work. It's just obnoxious.

To fix PLD, the game needs bosses where PLDs are required for a safe victory. Which means we'd need a mob that has enough accuracy to cap evasion against a lv90 thief with 100+ evasion in gear and capped, merited evasion skill. Along with that, it would have to hit so fast that 5 shadows would be eaten long before before either utsusemis could be recast. It would also have to hit so hard against jobs that weren't purely geared for defence that the mages wouldn't be able to keep their HP at safe levels.

Or something like that. I don't have either pld or nin above 50.

Btw i don't know how much evasion you can stack on thf, 100 sounded like a lot but i'm not sure!

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Originally Posted by Mirage

To fix PLD, the game needs bosses where PLDs are required for a safe victory. Which means we'd need a mob that has enough accuracy to cap evasion against a lv90 thief with 100+ evasion in gear and capped, merited evasion skill. Along with that, it would have to hit so fast that 5 shadows would be eaten long before before either utsusemis could be recast. It would also have to hit so hard against jobs that weren't purely geared for defence that the mages wouldn't be able to keep their HP at safe levels.

Or something like that. I don't have either pld or nin above 50.

Btw i don't know how much evasion you can stack on thf, 100 sounded like a lot but i'm not sure!

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A mob like that would be better tanked by a DRK, MNK, or RDM long, long, long before a Paladin. Defense is worthless. Bloodtanking on PLD is worthless. Any "PLD tanking" that involves PLD/WAR is going to be worthless. It's harsh, and I apologize for that, but it's the truth and there's no need to reiterate in detail why bloodtanking is bad every time someone posts about bloodtanking/defense.

Then maybe they should change the defense to actually do something.

Or maybe they should just give PLD some offensive options/traits that utilize some of the unique tools we have now and call it a day, because... honestly, that would fix all the problems that we currently have.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

A mob like that would be better tanked by a DRK, MNK, or RDM long, long, long before a Paladin. Defense is worthless. Bloodtanking on PLD is worthless. Any "PLD tanking" that involves PLD/WAR is going to be worthless. It's harsh, and I apologize for that, but it's the truth and there's no need to reiterate in detail why bloodtanking is bad every time someone posts about bloodtanking/defense.

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It's harsh alright, but I still fail to see the truth part. PLD is a great defensive tank and takes less damage than all these jobs, MNK may be arguable (and situational), but especially with new PLD gear I'm positive they would still take less damage in most cases. And Defense does play a role, if not a huge one. As I mentioned before, Defense needs to be adjusted to provide more of a difference, it's a flaw with the game, not with PLD. Still, PLD has plenty of JAs and spells and especially equipment that drastically reduce the amount of damage they take. Shield blocks play a huge role in that, enhanced a lot by Reprisal. Phalanx helps a good deal on certain mobs as well. Sentinel and Rampart are great, although obviously on a timer. Even Flash helps, I've avoided more than one hard hitting TP move in my time with that.

And check out their gear, even without Ochain/Aegis. AF3 set reduces up to 15% damage, not counting the high Defense, Vitality, Shield Skill, Shield Defense Bonus and an absorb effect, which is another factor (5%, which does not count towards the cap), which adds even more in damage taken over time calculations, since it actually cures you. This is especially nice in solo situations, or lowman without a healer, when damage taken over time matters a lot more. I've seen a PLD solo King Arthro at 75, I don't think a MNK could have pulled that off, even spamming Hi-Potions, which still wouldn't be the same.

I doubt a lot of people have tried PLD tanking in Abyssea, because there's simply no need for it. But calling it worthless is just wrong. I've blood tanked inside and outside of Abyssea with 100% success as far as I can recall. Even if it's not the best option in many cases, how does that make it worthless? Maybe your definition of that word simply differs from the actual definition, without value/merit, not contributing. Both of these things are objectively wrong for PLD tanking. This is not a matter of opinion. And it's not the first time you deemed something that isn't the absolute perfect solution worthless.

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Originally Posted by Charismatic

Or maybe they should just give PLD some offensive options/traits that utilize some of the unique tools we have now and call it a day, because... honestly, that would fix all the problems that we currently have.

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Arguable, personally I don't wanna deal damage comparable to any actual damage dealer. It may be a solution, but not one I'd be happy with. Rather improve the tanking aspect, or rather, reestablish the tanking aspect, as it's been lost in the depths of Abyssea. These days people call any DD that can keep hate through cure spams a tank. This definition is the only thing that's wrong with PLD's standing in the game. Once actual tanking will have a meaning again, PLD will be sought out again.

After reading and responding to enough of your walls of text I'm going to be brief this time. Monk, Dark Knight, and Red Mage all have better defensive gear and take less damage than Paladin when bloodtanking (bar Ochain, the exception is not the rule). This is cold, hard fact.

Dark Knight and Red Mage can wear all of the same (or Better, in RDM's case) PDT armor as Paladin, with Red Mage getting a stronger Phalanx, the ability to wear a Terra's without penalty, native Stoneskin/Aquaveil/Haste, and Fast Cast. Dark Knight has Dread Spikes, the same Bashes as Paladin, Drains, Stuns, and the ability to utilize Seigan on their best DD sub if they do not need to sub NIN. Dark Knight has been a stronger tank than Paladin since 2007.

Monk has even better -PDT gear than Paladin, more HP, and a JA which reduces incoming non-TP/Magic damage taken by 75%. In the world of Bloodtanking, Monk is king.

Paladin has, what, Defense Bonus JT? Their AF3+2 absorb rate? Non-Ochain Shields?

Both your argument and Mirage's rely on Changing the value of Defense to make Paladin more useful. I am simply using the current value of Defense and making an assessment. You talk about adding stronger monsters that require a real Tank, but Paladin is not even the best "Tank" in the game. It was not even Abyssea that changed this. Paladin declined when players realized that any good player on any job can tank anything in the game. Abyssea only allowed more players to take on a "good player" mentality. That is all it did. It did not make it any easier for Monk, Samurai, and Dark Knight to tank circles around Paladin.

That said, considering pretty much every single fix you've advocated for Paladin involves changing fundamental game mechanics instead of actually adjusting the Paladin job, I'm sure this will just fall on deaf ears. Let's just assume you and I will never agree. I want a realistic job change that addresses the issues Paladin has inside its current working environment. You want to change the working environment of the game in order to make Paladin more favorable. That's that. They're not compatible.

Exactly, Greatguardian... and we've learned throughout the years that the best way to establish and maintain enmity is through damage. Why, then, should a tanking job not utilize this? I'm wondering why there are Paladins out there who don't want to do damage. What benefit is there to not doing it?
What I'd like to see from Square is a way to take the current Paladin playstyle and take some of our abilities and modify them to do damage in a unique way.
Perhaps a spell that shares a timer with Flash (similar to Despoil, Spirit Jump and Soul Jump) and performs a similar function. High enmity gain, and a very potent blind effect, but at the same time... it could do damage.
Perhaps damage following the drain formula and the blind effect could work similar to the SCH Helix spells (with a slightly longer duration than flash's blindness currently has), of course the additional damage wouldn't cause any hate but it could be a high enmity spell perhaps modified by the damage done by the initial strike... oh, and to make it a little more attractive, unlike many other damaging abilities... this one wouldn't give the enemy any TP to keep it in line with the current Flash spell.

Perhaps Rampart's magical shield could absorb damage and Paladin could be given an ability similar to disgorge that shoots out that stored up energy? But if that were done I'd say it should only be the damage from the most recent usage of Rampart.

I mean, I came up with this stuff in like 2 minutes. If there were a team of guys at square thinking on this, I'm sure they could come up with something better. We don't necessarily have to hit super hard with our swords to do damage, but we should be doing damage.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

After reading and responding to enough of your walls of text I'm going to be brief this time. Monk, Dark Knight, and Red Mage all have better defensive gear and take less damage than Paladin when bloodtanking (bar Ochain, the exception is not the rule). This is cold, hard fact.

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No, it's arguable. The "taking less damage" part, that is. The better defensive gear part is just wrong. Paladin's have the best defensive gear of any job available. Why you fail to see this I don't know. What does DRK have on PLD? Nothing. What does PLD have on DRK? AF3+2 body and legs, a shield and generally higher defense gear. What does RDM have on PLD? Umbra Cape and, depending on how you play, a weapon to mitigate damage (which PLD can also use in the form of sword/shield, maintaining its usefulness, or even staff (and Eisen Grip), if shield blocks aren't required). What does PLD have on RDM? AF3+2 body and legs, Ruffian Leggings and Nierenschutz. Not to mention Metallon Mantle is almost as good as Umbra Cape. What does MNK have on PLD? Arhat's Jinpachi +1 and Black Belt. What does PLD have on MNK? AF3+2 body and legs, Metallon Mantle, Ruffian Leggings, Heavy Gauntlets. That's just the job-exclusive slots, of course there's more overall, but since all jobs can share those, it hardly matters. And it's not even taking the absorb rate into account, strictly PDT. With the additional absorb rate could save even more damage (and it goes over cap too, which may also apply to the AF3+2 body's effect).

The question is now if shield blocks (which, alone, almost make up for most damage mitigating abilities from other jobs), almost equally strong Phalanx (4 damage less absorbed, considering generous RDM gear, not to mention Phalanx gets more useful, the less damage players take), Reprisal, Flash, Sentinel, Rampart, Shield Bash, Defense Bonus, Shield Defense Bonus, Critical Defense Bonus and Shield Mastery outweigh a marginally stronger Phalanx, Stoneskin, Aquaveil, Haste, Refresh II and Fast Cast (Haste and Refresh or Refresh II are usually cast on the PLD as well, at least in a group situation), or Dread Spikes, Stun, Drain and Weapon Bash in the DRK's case, and Counterstance in MNK's case (although that may be considered blink tanking, as you're sacrificing defense for a chance to not take damage at all). And that's where the terms "arguable" and "situational" come in.

It should be noted that I never even said those jobs aren't great tanks (we had a RDM main tank in our LS, I was co/backup-tank as a career PLD, and a MNK that would put most PLDs to shame in terms of survival). I just find your (repeated) dismissal of PLD as a worthless tank a completely groundless statement. Not to mention misinformation about gear and taking damage. If you find anything wrong with the gear I posted above or any alternative pieces I missed, feel free to correct me.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

That said, considering pretty much every single fix you've advocated for Paladin involves changing fundamental game mechanics instead of actually adjusting the Paladin job, I'm sure this will just fall on deaf ears. Let's just assume you and I will never agree. I want a realistic job change that addresses the issues Paladin has inside its current working environment. You want to change the working environment of the game in order to make Paladin more favorable. That's that. They're not compatible.

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Honestly, right now I can't even remember reading what you suggested for PLD. The reason I advocate changes to the game is because I feel that nothing is inherently wrong with PLD itself. Defense on the other hand is simply underrated as a defensive stat (as you admitted yourself). Enmity issues cannot be solved by simply doing more damage or getting higher enmity spells. That's why I wanna change those two aspects, it's nothing PLD specific in either case.

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Originally Posted by Charismatic

I'm wondering why there are Paladins out there who don't want to do damage. What benefit is there to not doing it?

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Because I'm looking at it from a role-playing point of view. Paladins are meant to be defensive, not offensive. I'm not saying they shouldn't be doing any damage at all (they are knights after all), I said they shouldn't be comparable to actual damage dealers, which is what they would be required to be, if they wanna keep up on tanking these days. I was perfectly happy with Atonement, it was a moderate attack, way above PLD's average, yet below good damage dealers' capabilities. That beig said, I wouldn't mind something similar again, I just don't want them to be just another DD.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I doubt a lot of people have tried PLD tanking in Abyssea, because there's simply no need for it. But calling it worthless is just wrong. I've blood tanked inside and outside of Abyssea with 100% success as far as I can recall. Even if it's not the best option in many cases, how does that make it worthless? Maybe your definition of that word simply differs from the actual definition, without value/merit, not contributing. Both of these things are objectively wrong for PLD tanking. This is not a matter of opinion. And it's not the first time you deemed something that isn't the absolute perfect solution worthless.

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I've done it, my PLD is better geared than my MNK overall and I will tell you this much PLD does it slower and worse. Less damage dealt means the NMs live longer and it is harder to recap hate. Dealt more damage causing my WHM to spend much more MP than if I was on MNK. The MP on a WHM is near limitless but it isn't limitless.

Edit: Dealt more damage excluding monsters such as Ironclads where all hits are TP moves.

I love PLD and am working toward Almace/Ochain but even I know and I'll admit my other job options just tank better currently under the same circumstances inside or outside of Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

No, it's arguable. The "taking less damage" part, that is. The better defensive gear part is just wrong. Paladin's have the best defensive gear of any job available. Why you fail to see this I don't know. What does DRK have on PLD? Nothing. What does PLD have on DRK? AF3+2 body and legs, a shield and generally higher defense gear. What does RDM have on PLD? Umbra Cape and, depending on how you play, a weapon to mitigate damage (which PLD can also use in the form of sword/shield, maintaining its usefulness, or even staff (and Eisen Grip), if shield blocks aren't required). What does PLD have on RDM? AF3+2 body and legs, Ruffian Leggings and Nierenschutz. Not to mention Metallon Mantle is almost as good as Umbra Cape. What does MNK have on PLD? Arhat's Jinpachi +1 and Black Belt. What does PLD have on MNK? AF3+2 body and legs, Metallon Mantle, Ruffian Leggings, Heavy Gauntlets. That's just the job-exclusive slots, of course there's more overall, but since all jobs can share those, it hardly matters. And it's not even taking the absorb rate into account, strictly PDT. With the additional absorb rate could save even more damage (and it goes over cap too, which may also apply to the AF3+2 body's effect).

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Outside of shield blocks, almost every job can match and some beat PLD in defensive abilities. Plenty of options for most jobs to hit 50%PDT and MDT. MNK has counterstance, which procs a lot more than shield does (Ochain being an exception of course), SAM has Seigan and Third Eye, RDM has Stoneskin, DRK has Stun for reliable recasts, all of which can /NIN, even /SAM for 2 handers is a reliable defensive tool. Shield blocks are too much of a variable even with capped skill to compare it with those abilities, unless of course Ochain. Also the set bonus is around ~5%, and using the full set over PDT swaps is in the long run less optimal.

Sentinel is a whole 30 seconds of diminishing PDT, used more often for it's enmity boost rather than defense unless it's a critical situation, shield def bonus relies on the shield variable, and crit def bonus is small. I'm not saying PLD doesn't have a lot of defensive abilities, but most of them are minimal gains, and don't set it apart significantly from other jobs, besides shield (which kinda loses some value if /NIN).

Kind of seeing this "limited thinking" over and over again in this thread and others. Why should everyone have to level MNK or NIN to tank something if they already have PLD as an option. PLD isn't worthless. it just lacks the advantages given to DD's since the 75 cap was removed. PLD can tank, although it may be slower due to damage dealing limits. People are entitled to their choices of jobs. And of course there is situations that require a different approach to be optimal.. but that doesn't mean everything has to be done in a pre-determined strategy.

If ur a good player.. then using PLD as an option won't matter. there is going to be some work involved on any hard mob. and if the mob isn't hard.. then why argue who tanks better? Either you work for it.. or you want Easy button fights... for that matter i would just toss BST at it and go grill a steak while my pet does the work for me.

Outside of abyssea has changed in only the aspect that players have higher base stats and higher skill caps than before with the same mobs/stats. SE will either come around and re-balance it.. or we will have to deal with DD jobs that have reached a level of "too much power".

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Originally Posted by Judge

Outside of abyssea has changed in only the aspect that players have higher base stats and higher skill caps than before with the same mobs/stats. SE will either come around and re-balance it.. or we will have to deal with DD jobs that have reached a level of "too much power".

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Don't forget that the level penalty is gone or no longer a big issue as most HNMs are Even Match at best level wise now. Considering a lot of gear from Sky, Land Kings, etc is beaten by Emp +1 and SE said that even with Synergy upgrades at best you'd match Emp+1 I highly doubt they will waste time re-balancing old content.

This is how you fix PLD in and out of abyssea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oKh0yEGC2M

By getting two empyreans? Why doesn't every other job require empyreans to be 'fixed'?
Come on, that's not a true solution and you know it.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Pld is not dead. I have the solution.

Dead horse. Beaten. I promise the "Krystal method" of "Scream loud enough and make enough threads and eventually they'll fix it" doesn't work. It's just obnoxious.

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You're 100% wrong about that.
The establishment of these forums, although late, came for that VERY PURPOSE. To listen to the player's feedback. Get used to SE fine tuning things to the player's desires. Maybe you haven't played FFXI long enough, or know how SE used to be like, to understand or comprehend just how significant a change like abyssea and the introduction of these forums is.
How is PLD not dead? Its more useless than PUP, more useless than BST, and offers nothing to a party or alliance. There are at least 2 Jobs that can do everything PLD can do better.
DMG mitigation : MNK, DNC and NIN and even SAM will take far less dmg than a PLD will.
Enmity/hate Control: Anything in the game, including post Gimped CE RDM, will control hate better than a PLD just through Tier 3 nukes and curing. Heck even a SMN's pet can hold hate better. BLM is a better hate control tank than PLD.
Kiting: BLM and RDM will outkite PLD, WAR Probably too.
Soloing: BST/PUP/MNK/NIN/RDM/DNC got PLD beat down. Only Ochain raises PLD's ability to solo like these other jobs. I'm not saying PLD can't solo, it can. I've soloed a lot of things on my lolpld such as Cerberus @ 80, Khim @ 80, Fafnir @85, and trioed Jorm at 75. Those same jobs above could have soloed/duoed all these NMs, much faster and they have.

Tell me, do you think PLD can solo Dark Ixion? an Ochain/Almace PLD with 10 others took 87 minutes yesterday to kill it as Lv.90's, because they were trying to make sure the PLD kept hate. They had masumanes/vere/ukons/gandivas and some pimp ass blues. The day before, me(vere mnk/dnc), Masamune sam/dnc and a ukon war/sam downed Dark Ixion in 8 minutes cuz we weren't being idiots and didn't have a PLD in party who would cry about letting him hold hate.
Upbeat solos Dark Ixion as NIN/RDM. You think an Ochain/Almace PLD can do that?
Give pld enfeebling JAs/Spells that don't require MP and just gil, and MAYBE PLD can.

PLD IS DEAD.

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Originally Posted by Charismatic

By getting two empyreans? Why doesn't every other job require empyreans to be 'fixed'?
Come on, that's not a true solution and you know it.

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Unfair I know. But that is the only solution available to us at this point. Why do you think I've been pushing for a dmg upgrade all this time? It shouldn't require this much effort to recreate what other jobs like MNK or NIN are capable of doing (although Ochain does it better.)

@ Cursed:
Go take a look at that video so you can see just how wrong you are about PLD. You're calling PLD dead because it's no longer the master tank against old HNM's like Fafnir? Seriously?

One thing that might help Paladin is adjusting their spells and and Job abilities to have some cumulative enmity on them instead of just volatile enmity.

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Originally Posted by Habiki

One thing that might help Paladin is adjusting their spells and and Job abilities to have some cumulative enmity on them instead of just volatile enmity.

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Flash and Cures generate CE. More enmity tools is not the problem with PLD.

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Originally Posted by Darka

Flash and Cures generate CE. More enmity tools is not the problem with PLD.

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Most of the time less CE than the damage from meleeing in the time lost casting those spells. The VE spike is why Flash is still useful.

They should make PLD have an ability that you can be use every 2 minutes and that lasts every 1minute that allows you to take only 20-30 Damage every hit from NMs or w/e... But it should cost MP since your going to be using more of this ability than your Cures.

Also another ability that also lets you hold hate for 4min but can be used every 5 min. (This one doesn't need to consume MP)
This way, PLD will become the best tanks PERIOD... And we still need to consume MP since we dont want that to be a waste to have. lol idk... Thf and Nin are over powered in abyssea so why not make us PLD have something equal to that but in a different sense? people would so want us.

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Originally Posted by Arlan

Also another ability that also lets you hold hate for 4min but can be used every 5 min. (This one doesn't need to consume MP)
This way, PLD will become the best tanks PERIOD... And we still need to consume MP since we dont want that to be a waste to have. lol idk... Thf and Nin are over powered in abyssea so why not make us PLD have something equal to that but in a different sense? people would so want us.

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It isn't just THF and NIN its the fact every DD job is a better tank. Just holding hate doesn't make a good tank anymore, a PLD can do that, any DD can do that. The difference is the DD will get things killed faster than PLD while still "holding hate".

From what I've gathered, it seems the easiest fix would be to increase damage output from enemies. That way pseudo tank jobs would be difficult to keep alive, while a PLD would be able to easily live through it.

There's one NM in Abyssea that hits hard enough to warrant melee being carefull, and that's Valdean the ladybug.
Oh boy! I messed up bad going into that fight as MNK/WAR zerked/Counterstanced/hasted and opening with a victory smite. lol that mob is lethal!