Add New Jobs to Relic Weapons - Past Due for an Explanation

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

More work, but higher quality result.

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That's the thing, there is No need for another type of weapon. there's already a relic weapon for each type of weapon. It makes no sense for there to be another relic dagger just exclusive to Dancer. Honestly it makes more sense to just give the relics to the job that's already there.

for example, a relic chakram makes no sense at all, unless it have stats that will entirely boost dancer up. Same with relic book (too tired to look up the actual spelling).

So, again, why make new relic weapons when the existing one is already there.

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That's the thing, there is No need for another type of weapon.

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There's no need for adding jobs to existing relic weapons either, but people are asking for it anyway.

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So, again, why make new relic weapons when the existing one is already there.

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Because new weapons would be better than tacking jobs onto old ones. New weapons could be made to better suit thew new jobs when in more than one case, the relic weapon doesn't really do much for the associated job. You'd really rather add SCH to claustrum than give it a weapon it might actually want?

A relic hoop for BLU DNC that gives new relic steps and spells (specific to each job, like how Shigeto bow only gives RACC for SAM)

A relic animator that gives new relic maneuvers.

A relic Grimore that gives new relic spells.

An item that makes stacks of relic bullets for COR that enhance all rolls and shots. Flavor text would describe it as a portable bullet swagger. Feed in a steel ingot and a firesand and get a stack of 99 relic bullets. Bullets could be used instead of cards for shots.

Update Gjallarhorn with new relic songs.

Give Aegis "Shield block: converts 30% of damage received into TP"

Nope, Mandau for Dancer sounds a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Juri_Licious

Nope, Mandau for Dancer sounds a lot better.

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Too bad, your not getting that.

I can't say crap like relic bullets and spells is a possible idea but Aside from that, adding newer jobs to relics is retarded, most of those jobs arent even going to benefit from old relics compared to empy weapons for those jobs, give me a point to a blu using excal over almace or a dnc using mandau over twash or a cor using annihilator over Armageddon, don't worry I'll wait. If you can't invest the time into an easily made/better weapon than why would you even ask for a relic, but sure plz let these newer jobs hold relics so we get more fun out of ppl using the wrong kinds Of equipment for their jobs and once they see they were better off with an empy, they will cry about how SE f'd it up somehow for them and demand fake unrealistic adjustments as they always do.

Annhilator completely destroys Armageddon in terms of lowering enmity generation.

Excalibur is already situationally more useful than Almace on high defense mobs.

Mandau's +35 attack and low delay with the boost to its hidden effect activation is reason enough to put it in the top ~3 daggers in the game.

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Originally Posted by Winrie

give me a point to a blu using excal over almace or a dnc using mandau over twash or a cor using annihilator over Armageddon, don't worry I'll wait.

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Your wait is over.

Annihilator - would be hot sauce on cor for mobs that resist WF which are more common than you would think.

Excal - would be extremely situational I imagine. Maybe it would be cool with a monster HP build?

Mandau - and twashtar are pretty competitive. Someone theory crafted that the 90 Mandau just barely beat out Twashtar because you didn't need to spam a low damage WS to get the relic triple damage procs and this was when the proc rate was 5% instead of 12%. Oh and the 95 version of mandau is about 100mil less than Twashtar.

Spharai - I'm no PUP but I imagine Stringing pummels from a +48d +35 att weapon might rip holes in the universe and with a new triple damage proc rate of 12% the ODD aftermath from VS might not be that big of an issue. The only down side is the higher delay. If someone feels like doing the math go ahead. Also you run into the 100mil cheaper level 95 weapon here too.

Clasutrum - lol staff DD. Moot point.

Economizer,
I LOVED your Mjollnir WHM comment about the SCH being on it and how Hell hath no fury than a White Mage scourned, it was 1.) the funniest thing I've heard in a long time and 2.) so very very true it spoke to my soul.

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Originally Posted by Winrie

I can't say crap like relic bullets and spells is a possible idea but Aside from that, adding newer jobs to relics is retarded, most of those jobs arent even going to benefit from old relics compared to empy weapons for those jobs, give me a point to a blu using excal over almace or a dnc using mandau over twash or a cor using annihilator over Armageddon, don't worry I'll wait.

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Correct me if I'm mistaken people, but hasn't SE indicated they will continue to improve on the relics? Depending entirely on how much, relics could become as powerful as Empys (which I would assume is their goal), in which case, there would obviously be a lot of reason for newer jobs to want to be included on them as well.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Your wait is over.

Annihilator - would be hot sauce on cor for mobs that resist WF which are more common than you would think.

Excal - would be extremely situational I imagine. Maybe it would be cool with a monster HP build?

Mandau - and twashtar are pretty competitive. Someone theory crafted that the 90 Mandau just barely beat out Twashtar because you didn't need to spam a low damage WS to get the relic triple damage procs and this was when the proc rate was 5% instead of 12%. Oh and the 95 version of mandau is about 100mil less than Twashtar.

Spharai - I'm no PUP but I imagine Stringing pummels from a +48d +35 att weapon might rip holes in the universe and with a new triple damage proc rate of 12% the ODD aftermath from VS might not be that big of an issue. The only down side is the higher delay. If someone feels like doing the math go ahead. Also you run into the 100mil cheaper level 95 weapon here too.

Clasutrum - lol staff DD. Moot point.

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Im missing the resistant to wildfire mobs? where are they. Even so Wildfire is AGI and MAB modifier + ODD, how can you say an annihilator can beat it or even be in the same field as an armageddon for corsair, saying that is like saying ranger can be better with an arma instead of annihilator.

The mandau bit i will agree on, but it only costs 100 mil more to 95 a twash if youre a fool, and upgrade process isnt even the debate atm. Once again ODD will trump mandau, +35 attack doesnt save it.

h2h relic on pup, who cares about pup, they need all the help they can get at the moment.

Excalibur on blue mage? Im not even going to try to argue that one, pointless to try.

Either way it all revolves back to my 1st comment, you have ODD on empys, you dont on relics, most every empy is focused on the jobs that can use them, along with the ODD they possess on ws, if you cant take the few days it takes to 90 an empy for your job why would you ask for it to be stamped on a relic when its weaker for your job and takes a bit longer. Troll it, argue it, it doesnt matter in the end to be honest. Youre better off with an empy for crap like blu cor dnc ect.

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Originally Posted by Winrie

Im missing the resistant to wildfire mobs? where are they.

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http://www.bg-wiki.net/bg/Ildebrann

Also, wouldn't custom made relics basically be like mythics? We already have mythics.

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Originally Posted by Winrie

you have ODD on empys, you dont on relics, most every empy is focused on the jobs that can use them, along with the ODD they possess on ws, if you cant take the few days it takes to 90 an empy for your job why would you ask for it to be stamped on a relic when its weaker for your job and takes a bit longer. Troll it, argue it, it doesnt matter in the end to be honest.

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I'm assuming you don't realize (or forgot) that relics get double/triple damage on melee swings WITHOUT the aftermath that Empy requires for the same effect, so I won't go into that subject anymore.

And again, you're failing to acknowledge that SE has continued plans to improve relics and also apparently seems (given the latest 90-95 Empy trial) to be attempting to balance the time required to complete a fully upgraded Relic and Empy.

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You'd really rather add SCH to claustrum than give it a weapon it might actually want?

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As a Scholar, no.

As someone with a reasonable sense of game balance, yes.

Giving Scholar, Dancer, Puppetmaster, Corsair and Blue Mage unique Relic weapons that are more like Mythic weapons than anything else is completely unfair to every other job. Since we're taking Claustrum as the example, Black Mage and Summoner would be royally screwed if Scholar got something completely different that was actually designed for the job.

Sure there are people saying "Giving Dancer Mandau would be unfair", but I do hope they realize that the apparent alternative is "Give Dancer it's Mythic weapon with the ease of a Relic". Except you know, unlike a Mythic weapon it will have a random double~triple damage multiplier on full time rather than after every 300TP Weapon skill as well as probably higher base damage to go along side whatever Dancer specific boost people seem to think belongs on Relic weapons. Yeah, that's a better alternative - give Dancer a Relic weapon that's effectively Mandau and Terpsichore in one that's as easy to obtain as Mandau.

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As someone with a reasonable sense of game balance, yes.

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how does adding a job that doesn't want a weapon to a weapon add to game balance?

if jobs don't want something, adding them to that something doesn't help anything. Every job being represented on something is not the same thing as balancing the game. Balancing it would be having something *useful* to every job.

It is reasonable to argue that it's not "fair" that certain jobs can't get a relic weapon. It's not reasonable to argue that it's not "balanced." They're not the same thing.

I'm assuming you didn't read past the second sentence since you missed the entire point of my post.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

I'm assuming you didn't read past the second sentence since you missed the entire point of my post.

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Nope, I read the whole post. Perhaps your point was too shrouded in secrecy to discern if you feel it wasn't understood.

I never said new weapons should be "more like mythic weapons," only that they could offer different stats on a similar order of magnitude. In fact, I never even described what their stats should be at all.

let's take the staff for instance. "Gate of Tartarus" has a refresh aftermath. Not that bad inofitself and something some SMN could make use of, but not special enough to justify nuking in the weapon so you keep your TP on SCH. "Magical Weaponskill of Coolness" for SCH could have MAB as an aftermath, and itself do magic damage. a SMN would still prefer Claustrum over the staff SCH gets; a weapon with such a WS woudn't be imbalanced to that job. Perhaps a bit to BLM, but I'm just thinking aloud.

The real point here is I never specified what the stats of the weapons for those new jobs should be, and you're acting like I'm saying "make these weapons more awesome than the others."

Considering my third sentence pretty much sums up my entire point, I'm going to go with "You can't read".

Oh so you're suggesting a Claustrum Version 2.0? Well let me say, I don't want that either.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

Considering my third sentence pretty much sums up my entire point, I'm going to go with "You can't read".

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Considering you were making assumptions based on things I didn't say, I'd say the same thing about you- except it's more "reading things that aren't there."

Your "point" is invalid because I never posed the suggestion that SE make new "mythic weapons" and call them relics.

Haha, really?

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New weapons could be made to better suit thew new jobs when in more than one case, the relic weapon doesn't really do much for the associated job.

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Weapons to better suit the jobs rather than Relic weapons which generally don't. You're exact words.

Claustrum does nothing for Summoner or Black Mage. Refresh on a Weapon skill is worthless. Likewise Mandau does nothing to suit Thief, bar being a dagger; only thing Thievish on that is the Critical effect on the Weapon skill, in which case lets take Gungnir - Shock Spikes has absolutely nothing to do with Dragoon.

To actually take your suggestion though, giving a Scholar a new staff with a MAB producing Weapon Skill (I really should point out that's what Omniscience does on our Mythic with 200TP) would still be unfair to Summoner and Black Mage. Here's an idea, SE can adjust Claustrum so it's actually useful - in which case I may want it for Scholar.
Irrelevant of course, since if the Weapon skill weapons from Abyssea are anything to go off, Scholar would be on Mjollnir.

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Originally Posted by Briarb19

I'm assuming you don't realize (or forgot) that relics get double/triple damage on melee swings WITHOUT the aftermath that Empy requires for the same effect, so I won't go into that subject anymore.

And again, you're failing to acknowledge that SE has continued plans to improve relics and also apparently seems (given the latest 90-95 Empy trial) to be attempting to balance the time required to complete a fully upgraded Relic and Empy.

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I didnt forget anything, those have to proc to work, ODD comes from ws with your empyrean, the difference between the two is painted brightly on the wall, and you are ignoring or forgetting the points made, in which empyreans are strongly leaned on enhancing the jobs they are for and their modifiers and such show this, relics however are more old school traited and suited for original jobs, this cannot be disputed by anyone. And Even if they are adjusting relics it isnt our current reality, we are not 99, this is mundane and borderline idiocy to even try to give facts that say newer jobs can benefit from relics more than empyreans. And once again, ill say it a 3rd time, relic takes longer and is weaker, empy takes days-week. Do the math.

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To actually take your suggestion though, giving a Scholar a new staff with a MAB producing Weapon Skill (I really should point out that's what Omniscience does on our Mythic with 200TP) would still be unfair to Summoner and Black Mage.

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No, it really wouldn't. Plus said new staff could be BLM/SCH. SMN doesn't give a rats behind about magic attack bonus, thus Claustrum would still make sense for them (though the Empy staff stomps all over it)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, it really wouldn't. Plus said new staff could be BLM/SCH. SMN doesn't give a rats behind about magic attack bonus, thus Claustrum would still make sense for them (though the Empy staff stomps all over it)

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So Summoner is screwed, spend 150m+ on Claustrum or get Hvergelmir to the stage where it beats Claustrum absolutely free. Nice comeback there, champ.

Adjust Claustrum to not suck and slap Scholar on it, far better solution. The only benefit of your suggestion is that it requires 100TP less than both Black Mage and Scholars Mythics to get some Magic Attack Bonus. Still an absolutely worthless weapon unless its weapon skill gives 500MAB.

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Adjust Claustrum to not suck and slap Scholar on it, far better solution.

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No, leave Claustrum as it is, because it is of some use to one of the jobs that can use it, if that's what you want to get; And add a new weapon that is of a bit more interest to nuking mages. you still fail to understand that while I proposed some example stats, that it could be anything, as long as it was a new weapon, and not slapping new jobs onto old weapons. Feel free to invent a relic weapon you'd want if you don't like the one I invented.

I thought it was a pretty good "comeback", myself.

They should not just slap new jobs on weapons. A more elegant solution should be sought after. These jobs should have to earn their relics, not suddenly be able to use ones originally built for other jobs before their existence without any effort.

I've already posted a suggestion for a Scholar Relic (and Puppetmaster, but no stats on that since I know nothing of the job) based on Gjallarhorn. Though I'm fully aware it will never happen, but it's a more elegant solution than "To hell with the preexisting pattern lets just add new weapons".

Bard and Red Mage have nothing related to Critical Hit rates, Thief and Dancer (a trait and Feather Step off the top of my head) do - Dancer has more right to be on Mandau than two thirds of the job on it.
Corsair has every right (if not more) to be on Annihilator. Same for Blue Mage and Excalibur.
Puppetmaster is the only questionable one since Spharai has such high base damage, I offered an alternative to that which fits the current patter (A Relic Animator/Frame; as I said I know nothing of the job).
Scholar won't get anything useful either way, it will be unfair to Summoner at the very least - though the option I've suggested does fit the current patter, it would be more fair to slap Scholar on a preexisting one since mages were royally screwed with Relics.

There really is little reason for the development team to waste time on new relics; they'd have to place new Attestation NMs, new Animated Weapons, new base Relic weapons, work out the cost - both coins and the weapon/materials used for the first two stages. Four out of five of the jobs would be perfectly suited to being on existing weapons; it's a better solution.

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These jobs should have to earn their relics, not suddenly be able to use ones originally built for other jobs before their existence without any effort.

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You've lost me. Blue Mage being slapped on Excalibur means Blue Mages don't have to work for the weapon? Seriously?

@ Winrie

Emps are just as generic as relics. None of them are any more geared for the jobs that use them than their relic counterparts.

Mandau triple damage favors a DNC far more than the ODD from Twashtar because a DNC doesn't spam RS unless they want to gimp their damage. In abyssea they spam Evisceration and outside they spam DE. They get to use RS once every 90 seconds when climactic flourish is up. That's 30% ODD 33% of the time at optimal performance which is not gonna happen vs. 12% Triple damage 100% of the time. MATHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

Do some VW and you will meet some WF (fire and/or magic) resistant mobs as well as some mobs that you NEVER want to pull hate on. With the proper atmacites and rolls a COR in VW can WS every 5 seconds. If I had Annihilator on COR that would probably be the only weapon I used in VW unless the mob was resistant to physical damage. The reduced enmity from WF doesn't even compare to the low static enmity and enmity down aftermath on Coronach. As for ODD I don't even shoot on COR anymore so it doesn't matter and if it did matter Anni has 12% Triple damage.

lolPUP is not an argument. PUP doesn't need VS because stringing pummel is a solid crit WS making Spharai an option. Spharai would actually probably be better for PUP than it is for MNK.

I didn't even try to argue for Excal because in this case you are right. Almace is almost always better.

Claustrum sucks and is pointless to talk about but so does Helmvegr or w/e it's called (Que melee SMNs.)

As for cost. I don't know how much HMPs are going for on your server but they are holding strong at 150-170 on lakshmi from what I have seen. Using the low end of the spectrum that's 225mil. Using the average price of currency Mandau and Spharai both cost 128mil. Even if plates stabilize at 100k that's still 22mil less and 22mil is 22mil. Even the most expensive relic will be less than a level 95 emp until HMPs drop below 100k which might never happen.

Basically take almost everything you said and the exact opposite is true.

EDIT: Just noticed something you said to someone else. Relic damage has to proc to work? WTF does that even mean? So does ODD even if it is a higher %. On top of that you need your aftermath up. Anything that says "Occasionally" has to proc to work. I wish I would have read this before I took the time to respond to you.

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You've lost me. Blue Mage being slapped on Excalibur means Blue Mages don't have to work for the weapon? Seriously?

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No. Blue mage being slapped on Excalibur means people who already got Excalibur long before Blue Mage came out get suddenly have the super weapon for that job the moment the job is released. That wouldn't be fair to the people who didn't know ahead of time that BLU was going to get the sword relic and that they could start working on the job's super weapon before the job even comes out.

For the most part, nobody had the best gear for the jobs right after they came out and leveled them up. The best gear for the new jobs came mainly from events added after their inception, or from gear added to other events after their inception. So basically, I feel people who would have already had the matching relic for that job before it came out would have an unfair advantage.

(Disclaimer: Blue Mage used as example. Insert any new job in its place if you want.)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No. Blue mage being slapped on Excalibur means people who already got Excalibur long before Blue Mage came out get suddenly have the super weapon for that job the moment it is released.

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Great choice.
Your argument has become "People who decided to level expansion jobs should have to spend another 150m for a Relic weapon that may as well be the same as the one they currently own".

Oh and for the most part people leveling new jobs would have the majority of the gear set for them, unless they went from leveling Monk to Scholar. Which is a completely ignorable scenario since no one is suggesting Scholar be put on Spharai.

Basically, but not with the spin you put on it.

Yes, people who level the new jobs should have to get a new relic for them. It would be unfair to other players for them to start out having the super weapon for that job before anyone has even leveled that job or knew what kind of weapons it used.

Some relic weapons have more than one job, but all of them have fewer jobs on them than typical weapons do. It's pretty clear they didn't want every job that can swing a sword to use Excalibur, for instance.

You write your post as if to say that players are obligated to get a relic weapon for their jobs. They're not. But when a new job comes out, people shouldn't automatically have the best gear for them because they just happened to make the right relic beforehand.

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Oh and for the most part people leveling new jobs would have the majority of the gear set for them, unless they went from leveling Monk to Scholar. Which is a completely ignorable scenario since no one is suggesting Scholar be put on Spharai.

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It doesn't matter what job you went from to. PUPs who played MNK didn't automatically have the best PUP gear, mages who went to BLU definitely didn't automatically have the best gear for BLU, and yada yada yada for COR.

By these jobs not being on the relic weapons, people had to work for the best weapon for the job, just like the rest of the gear.

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It's pretty clear they didn't want every job that can swing a sword to use Excalibur, for instance.

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By the looks of how they made Relic weapons it's pretty obvious they didn't want any weapon type repeats, too. Your argument is invalid.

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It doesn't matter what job you went from to. PUPs who played MNK didn't automatically have the best PUP gear, mages who went to BLU definitely didn't automatically have the best gear for BLU, and yada yada yada for COR.

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Mages who went to Blue Mage? Didn't read my post again I see. The only jobs that would matter going to Blue Mage would be ones on the Relic in question. Red Mage would offer plenty of the mage related gear Blue needs, Paladin would have plenty of the damage dealer gear (Homam is an example the comes to mind).
Any White Mage or Black Mage (at Level 75) was set for Scholar.
Any Monk would have had a decent shoot at Puppetmaster; though I'll admit less since SE decided Puppetmaster was a mage.
Any Ranger would have had plenty of the general gear for Corsair.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

By the looks of how they made Relic weapons it's pretty obvious they didn't want any weapon type repeats, too. Your argument is invalid.

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You have no basis to declare the argument invalid. Your statement has no relevance to mine.

Basically, you want all existing staff/dagger/sword/gun relicholders to have a free pass to the ultimate weapons for the new jobs. We get it, I disagree and I feel that they must do some work before they have the best gear for a new job.

You're not going to convince me, I'm not going to convince you, it's time we ignore eachother and be on our way.

It has plenty of relevance. You think it's obvious SE didn't want any job that can swing a sword to equip Excalibur; I say it's pretty obvious they didn't want multiple weapon types to appear in the Relic line up.

SE practically confirms what I'm saying when they said they're thinking about putting new jobs on Relic weapons.

Your argument is invalid.

The fact that you think leveling any job that's on a Relic doesn't set someone up gear wise for any of the five new jobs just further invalidates your argument. They're not going to have the best gear simply because it comes from the new events that accompany the jobs expansion; Relic weapons are almost as old as this game is.

He's just upset no one really uses his site (probably because of him) so he trolls people on other forums. I have no regrets from blocking him when he first started posting on here.

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Originally Posted by Dirtyfinger

He's just upset no one really uses his site (probably because of him) so he trolls people on other forums. I have no regrets from blocking him when he first started posting on here.

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1) it's not my site, I just contribute to it by helping out with gruntwork
2)this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to with the site at all.

I'm not here to troll (Troll suggests intent, I have no such intent- Just because a discussion happens spins out of control doesn't mean I'm trying to do it), I'm not here to make friends or enemies, I'm purely here to share my opinion.

Think whatever the heck you want, that doesn't make it a fact. I have nothing further to say.

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Think whatever the heck you want, that doesn't make it a fact.

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Thinking what I think doesn't make it fact.

The fact that SE has practically confirmed slapping new jobs on old Relic weapons, however, does make it fact.

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The fact that SE has practically confirmed slapping new jobs on old Relic weapons

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Funny, I just saw them confirm that they have no plans to do this.

P.S.+1 for the troll, by the way, but it's not going to work anymore.

Do you have to try hard to not read this well?

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

Hey guys! We forwarded your feedback to the dev. team and they let us know that they have indeed looked into increasing the number of jobs that can use relic weapons, but as of right now there are no plans to implement this change.

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Game over.

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as of right now there are no plans to implement this change.

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Game over.

Anyone spare a hand? I need to triple facepalm.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Game over.

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They also said for years that they were not interested in raising the level cap past 75 and then they did. The fact that they have looked into it and are thinking about it, means its possible. Saying they arent going to do it right now, doesn't mean they never will.

For all you know, they will change it after 99 cap and merits are done, etc.

Further more, the whole "its not fair if someone already owns a relic and they slap BLU on it, that now their BLU can use it" is pretty dumb. Its like you are saying "if someone got gear for their MNK and PUP happens to be able to use it, they shouldnt be allowed to use that gear on PUP unless they redo it all over again"