Why Cant Final fantasy 11 get the same treatment?

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Xbox 360 only has DirectX 9, it does not have the DLLs for previous versions of DirectX. Microsoft saw no need to create 360 versions of those because nobody would ever need them.

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Then maybe SE made a dx8->dx9 wrapper for it themselves :p

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Your just making things up. First off, you have no Idea what that costs to do.

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Costs to upgrade from Vicious Engine 1 to 2 was at the time (4 years ago now) going to cost the company I was working for $35k not including the programmer time for them to learn the changes from 1 to 2, not including their time to learn how to upgrade the titles customized programming from VE1 to VE2. The estimate on the project wast at minimum $100k when accounting for the additional programming time as well as another 6 months which would have been 250k-300k from a missed milestone.

Keep in mind these are prices on a lower end costing public engine.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Second, ROI - I'm not sure that means what you think it does.

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Return On Investment? Nah no clue because I haven't had to convince investors why X game design additions were worth the time and money they would take in addition to what was already planned or later explained which things could be cut without hurting their ROI.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

We're talking about completely overhauling 2 games. Before the over haul, game 1 has 10 times the subscriber base of game 2. After the overhaul, we have 2 newly rebuilt games, game 2 has made 1/10 the profit of game 1 during the lengthy overhaul (if that), and now needs to increase sales ten fold to even come close to game 1. In order for game 2 to surpass the profits of game one and thus become the better return on investment, 2 things need to happen. Game 2 needs to A) maintain its new 300k player base for at least 2 years, and B) game 1 needs to fail entirely in those 2 years. Game 2 then needs to survive longer than game 1 would have given the same opportunity. Just looking at that you see that game 2 possesses limited potential for ROI.

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Upgrading the Graphics Engine and Server program upgrades do not equal a complete overhaul. Still missing the AI and core engine at the very least (assuming the AI isn't being handled by the core engine itself in FFXIV).

If XI has 300,000 active subscribing accounts that means we're feeding SE $46,800,000 a year give or take. XIV currently has about 30,000 active subscribing accounts which means XIV right now XIV is bringing in a big fat $0 for SE in its first year. (not including game sales etc cause we could just add abyssea and mini expansions etc blah blah)

Let's say SE overhauls both 11 and 14 and releases them in January 2012. Let's also say (for fun) each overhaul cost 100 million each which game would start to turn a profit first? Which game would be the better investment? Would new gamers automatically subscribe to XIV because it has a newer title if XI has the same graphics and quality? What would make 14 turn into a success story that it turns such a bigger profit than its older sibling.

This is my prediction that I really hope doesn't come true. SE will start charging for XIV later this year, something like half of its free subscribers will quit. Over the next two years the population of XIV may slowly rise, but it will be forgotten by anyone who is not Japanese because SE will not market outside of Japan. SE will continue to put extremely small amounts of effort and money towards FFXI, and the population will decline and rightfully so. In 2-3 years time both games will sit at around 100k subscribers until the day maybe 5 years down the line, SE finally realizes that we were right and they're a bunch of tools.

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Originally Posted by Sesh

If XI has 300,000 active subscribing accounts that means we're feeding SE $46,800,000 give or take. XIV currently has about 30,000 active subscribing accounts which means XIV right now XIV is bringing in a big fat $0 for SE in its first year. (not including game sales etc cause we could just add abyssea and mini expansions etc blah blah)

Let's say SE overhauls both 11 and 14 and releases them in January 2012. Let's also say (for fun) each overhaul cost 100 million each which game would start to turn a profit first? Which game would be the better investment? Would new gamers automatically subscribe to XIV because it has a newer title if XI has the same graphics and quality? What would make 14 turn into a success story that it turns such a bigger profit than its younger sibling.

This is my prediction that I really hope doesn't come true. SE will start charging for XIV later this year, something like half of its free subscribers will quit. Over the next two years the population of XIV may slowly rise, but it will be forgotten by anyone who is not Japanese because SE will not market outside of Japan. SE will continue to put extremely small amounts of effort and money towards FFXI, and the population will decline and rightfully so. In 2-3 years time both games will sit at around 100k subscribers until the day maybe 5 years down the line, SE finally realizes that we were right and they're a bunch of tools.

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They're not going to do something that will encourage players to stay in FFXI rather than switch over to FFXIV.

The thing you have to understand is that SE wants FFXI to slowly fade away while everyone switches to FFXIV. They have taken an "all or nothing" stance on this. FFXIV must succeed at all costs and they are willing to risk everything to achieve this even if it means burning their MMO department to the ground in the event that the plan fails.

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Originally Posted by Sesh

If XI has 300,000 active subscribing accounts that means we're feeding SE $46,800,000 give or take. XIV currently has about 30,000 active subscribing accounts which means XIV right now XIV is bringing in a big fat $0 for SE in its first year. (not including game sales etc cause we could just add abyssea and mini expansions etc blah blah)

Let's say SE overhauls both 11 and 14 and releases them in January 2012. Let's also say (for fun) each overhaul cost 100 million each which game would start to turn a profit first? Which game would be the better investment? Would new gamers automatically subscribe to XIV because it has a newer title if XI has the same graphics and quality? What would make 14 turn into a success story that it turns such a bigger profit than its younger sibling.

This is my prediction that I really hope doesn't come true. SE will start charging for XIV later this year, something like half of its free subscribers will quit. Over the next two years the population of XIV may slowly rise, but it will be forgotten by anyone who is not Japanese because SE will not market outside of Japan. SE will continue to put extremely small amounts of effort and money towards FFXI, and the population will decline and rightfully so. In 2-3 years time both games will sit at around 100k subscribers until the day maybe 5 years down the line, SE finally realizes that we were right and they're a bunch of tools.

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Older sibling*

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

They're not going to do something that will encourage players to stay in FFXI rather than switch over to FFXIV.

The thing you have to understand is that SE wants FFXI to slowly fade away while everyone switches to FFXIV. They have taken an "all or nothing" stance on this. FFXIV must succeed at all costs and they are willing to risk everything to achieve this even if it means burning their MMO department to the ground in the event that the plan fails.

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I agree. This is why at very least we have to keep making threads like this to hope that SE realizes what a stupid plan that is.

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Older sibling*

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Ya meant that lol :P

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Costs to upgrade from Vicious Engine 1 to 2 was at the time (4 years ago now) going to cost the company I was working for $35k not including the programmer time for them to learn the changes from 1 to 2, not including their time to learn how to upgrade the titles customized programming from VE1 to VE2. The estimate on the project wast at minimum $100k when accounting for the additional programming time as well as another 6 months which would have been 250k-300k from a missed milestone.

Keep in mind these are prices on a lower end costing public engine.

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Even if the cost was $35 million, The return on FFXI would be better because it already brings in that much annually.

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Return On Investment? Nah no clue because I haven't had to convince investors why X game design additions were worth the time and money they would take in addition to what was already planned or later explained which things could be cut without hurting their ROI.

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See above.

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Upgrading the Graphics Engine and Server program upgrades do not equal a complete overhaul. Still missing the AI and core engine at the very least (assuming the AI isn't being handled by the core engine itself in FFXIV).

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Out of curiousity, were you the one who sold them on FFXIV's design? Because that would explain a lot.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Even if the cost was $35 million, The return on FFXI would be better because it already brings in that much annually.

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You're speaking as a gamer who is attached to FFXI, investors don't care about you personally or any of us past the money we pay to play. They don't care about how things are done just how long, how much it takes for them to get results, and how much the profits will be. This isn't how it should but it is.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Out of curiousity, were you the one who sold them on FFXIV's design? Because that would explain a lot.

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LOL no.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

You're speaking as a gamer who is attached to FFXI, investors don't care about you personally or any of us past the money we pay to play. They don't care about how things are done just how long, how much it takes for them to get results, and how much the profits will be. This isn't how it should but it is.

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If this were the case they would've written off FFXIV as a loss by now and moved on to other projects.

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Let's say SE overhauls both 11 and 14 and releases them in January 2012. Let's also say (for fun) each overhaul cost 100 million each which game would start to turn a profit first? Which game would be the better investment?

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You're not making a proper comparison here. If both games revamped, which one would increase it's current income level by more? It's highly unlikely that a major revamp of FFXI is going to bring in a lot of new customers. FFXI has been around for a long time and is already very well known and still has a userbase above what the typical random start-up MMO achieves (which isn't very much when you consider the rising number of fail MMOs). Because FFXIV's current user base is relatively low, it has much more room to gain customer base with the proper improvements.

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If this were the case they would've written off FFXIV as a loss by now and moved on to other projects.

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The fact that they haven't tells me that they honestly feel they can succeed with the project. Of course, since this is an FFXI forum, nobody wants that to happen, but hey, fandom is a fickle thing.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

If this were the case they would've written off FFXIV as a loss by now and moved on to other projects.

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A failed title in a spin off genre wouldn't hurt the over all brand, look at Tiberium 3rd person shooter that got canned, and hasn't heavily damaged the C&C line of RTS games. A failed title in a genre you're looking to establish your company's future (and thus financial investments) in as more than a 1 trick pony is a killer. If FFXI dies tomorrow it dies a success, FFXIV can't say that, and if FFXIV dies a failure you can bet SE's future in the MMORPG genre is done. If SE's future in MMORPGs is done then the potential for huge profits is also gone.

Console games make profits but not to the potential of a successful MMO does.

Super Mario Bros is supposedly the highest selling console game of all time with 40 million copies sold. Lets attach the current $60 price to that number (yes I know this game didn't/doesn't sell for that much). So at the best of the best possible for a console game you've made 2.4 billion dollars over 26 years.

Now lets look at the best of the best profit wise MMO WoW. Last subscription base I've heard thrown around was 8 million users so I'll use that. At $15 a month that's 120 million a month or 1.4 billion a year, so in 2 years WoW makes 480 million more than the best selling console game could have made in 26 years.

Hopefully you can see why an investor sees the cost of fixing FFXIV as worth it and why they haven't just written it off.

That of course completely ignores the problem of market saturation and the problems inherent with trying to put your own products in direct competition with each other.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

That of course completely ignores the problem of market saturation and the problems inherent with trying to put your own products in direct competition with each other.

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Oh lets look at lower end numbers:

Say a console game sells 250k copies at $40. So that's 10 million dollars.

Say a MMO sells 100k copies at $0 and has a subscription fee of $10. So that's 1 million a month or 12 million in a year...

Again still a better investment looking at lower end numbers.

I feel we're talking past each other.

MMOs can make much better returns than console games. We agree on this.

An MMO makes more money because it is a perpetual product, but one with a finite field of customers. What happens when you try to maintain two products in direct competition with each other? When targeting the same demographic for each product, the results will likely be a nearly identical stream of revenue now split between the two products. Same money, different piles, but now with the added risks that come with a decrease in an MMO's population and the huge price tag of developing the second product.

Please, feel free to enlighten me as to how my assessment is incorrect.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

I feel we're talking past each other.

MMOs can make much better returns than console games. We agree on this.

An MMO makes more money because it is a perpetual product, but one with a finite field of customers. What happens when you try to maintain two products in direct competition with each other? When targeting the same demographic for each product, the results will likely be a nearly identical stream of revenue now split between the two products. Same money, different piles, but now with the added risks that come with a decrease in an MMO's population and the huge price tag of developing the second product.

Please, feel free to enlighten me as to how my assessment is incorrect.

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I see the problem now, you're assuming SE is attempting to maintain FFXI and FFXIV for the years to come, I see it as a few others have, FFXI is being strung along until FFXIV is ready and FFXI will be kept alive but not updated to the same degree in hopes those players shift from FFXI to FFXIV and FFXI can get shut down. I know they said they wanted to have 2 MMOs at a time years ago but looking at what they have or haven't done since then says that idea went out the window.

Though that isn't to say it isn't possible, I mean in the past a company has held 2 titles in the same genre successfully, look at Starcraft and Warcraft. EA's racing line ups. Activisions action adventures. A company cares not if a player is splitting their time between two of their games and the same concept is carried over to MMOs assuming they are in different game worlds.

Edit: It isn't the best example but all 3 times I started/reactivated my WoW account I kept FFXI active because while in the same genre they are 2 different games. The same is true about FFXI and FFXIV.

And I'm saying that's an absolutely terrible business plan that completely disregards the principle of ROI because the costs to maintain FFXI properly would be a fraction of what it cost to build and rebuild FFXIV and the profits from extending FFXI's lifespan would be better as well seeing as how it's already established and successful.

MMOs are a completely different beast from other games. They are very nearly exclusive by their very nature. Maintaining two of them does not equate to doubling your revenue. What it does equate to is significantly increasing your maintenance costs and eroding the strength of both titles as they compete against each other for player population.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

And I'm saying that's an absolutely terrible business plan that completely disregards the principle of ROI because the costs to maintain FFXI properly would be a fraction of what it cost to build and rebuild FFXIV and the profits from extending FFXI's lifespan would be better as well seeing as how it's already established and successful.

MMOs are a completely different beast from other games. They are very nearly exclusive by their very nature. Maintaining two of them does not equate to doubling your revenue. What it does equate to is significantly increasing your maintenance costs and eroding the strength of both titles as they compete against each other for player population.

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I don't disagree its a terrible business plan. But then again I feel that MMOs on a console are terrible business plans because by designing a MMO for a console you're giving it a limited life span. Because FFXI was designed for PS2 vs. designed for PC then ported to PS2 (at the time that decision was likely made was the same time SE believed FFXI would survive for 2 years at most) it becomes a bad investment option as the years go on.

Look at how many players are crying for real story content updates, expansions, major upgrades, etc. When looking at the demands of the player base with the "limitless" tech of a computer they are easily met. Making it a great investment to keep putting money into because the profits almost always will overcome the initial costs. When looking at the demands with the limited tech restraints of the PS2 and how FFXI's core was made (i.e. direct x wrapper instead of a PC client) these demands have a much lower chance of the profits overcoming the initial costs.

Edit: I just noticed you seem to be assuming FFXI's proper maintenance for the years to come isn't expensive when it is. "PS2 limitations" wouldn't be a concern if the game was properly coded to be a MMO that could last 20 years.

anyway, SE can't read minds and can't pilot the people's feelings: I'll never play 14 even if they'll do the 3.0 version of it, and I have a lot of friends who are thinking like me, if they shut down 11 I'll say goodbye to MMO, I don't restart from zero another MMO (fail like 14 too).

if 11 is still loved and played, a serious company HAVE TO continue supporting the game their customers want to play.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Edit: I just noticed you seem to be assuming FFXI's proper maintenance for the years to come isn't expensive when it is. "PS2 limitations" wouldn't be a concern if the game was properly coded to be a MMO that could last 20 years.

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Nah, I know it's gonna be expensive. Moreso if they ever do a proper PC rebuild of the core engine. All I'm assuming is that the costs to maintain the game are distinctly lower than the cost of building an entirely new MMO twice over(which is basically what's happened with FFXIV).

So we all agree - starving XI in the hopes that XIV can even ever break even is a terrible idea? Yes?

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Originally Posted by Olor

So we all agree - starving XI in the hopes that XIV can even ever break even is a terrible idea? Yes?

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Yes.

More TLC for FFXI please.

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Originally Posted by katoplepa

anyway, SE can't read minds and can't pilot the people's feelings: I'll never play 14 even if they'll do the 3.0 version of it, and I have a lot of friends who are thinking like me, if they shut down 11 I'll say goodbye to MMO, I don't restart from zero another MMO (fail like 14 too).

if 11 is still loved and played, a serious company HAVE TO continue supporting the game their customers want to play.

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Once upon a time I had this same mind set, I've quit FFXI before, even deleted my character only to make a new one and start from 0. I had friends invite/re-invite me to join them in FFXI, WoW, LoTR Online, Guild Wars, City of Heroes, Champions Online, DC Universe and probably others I can't remember. I haven't taken every offer up but I have taken a few offers up before.

Once FFXI dies I'll likely try FFXIV again and if the changes made make me happy I'll stay if not I'll leave and find something else to do with my spare time.

I'm not saying you're gonna do the same thing you or your friends might?

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Originally Posted by Olor

So we all agree - starving XI in the hopes that XIV can even ever break even is a terrible idea? Yes?

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As a FFXI player yes I agree.

Edit2:

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Nah, I know it's gonna be expensive. Moreso if they ever do a proper PC rebuild of the core engine. All I'm assuming is that the costs to maintain the game are distinctly lower than the cost of building an entirely new MMO twice over(which is basically what's happened with FFXIV).

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Rebuilding the core engine is required to maintain FFXI for the years to come. So those costs are part of maintaining it.
FFXIV was built once over and relatively cheaper parts of it are being rebuilt so it isn't being rebuilt twice over.

I understand your feelings about the differences between FINAL FANTASY XI and FINAL FANTASY XIV. Please understand that these games are very different entities and just as it was stated before, the operational policies as well as the size of the development team are very different as well.

Just to clarify one misconception I have been noticing for a while now...

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.

By new, is it new new or just recolored new? :X

*hides*

Edit: Also, Camate I miss your pumpkin head D:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/im..._halloween.jpg

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Originally Posted by Camate

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.

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Can you elaborate on this? When I and a few others (maybe more than a few) have mentioned "new areas" we are talking 100% unique zones not a rehashed zone such as Abyssea and WoTG was full of.

I didn't mind WoTG's areas, it actually worked with that expansion. Abyssea on the other hand didn't in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

I didn't mind WoTG's areas, it actually worked with that expansion. Abyssea on the other hand didn't in my opinion.

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Neither did I because as you said it worked with the story. It was just for reference because I'm curious if we will be getting new zones besides the 1 dungeon crawl.

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Originally Posted by Camate

I understand your feelings about the differences between FINAL FANTASY XI and FINAL FANTASY XIV. Please understand that these games are very different entities and just as it was stated before, the operational policies as well as the size of the development team are very different as well.

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But the size of the development team is part of our concerns - why should XI - which is making money have a teeny tiny itsy bitsy dev team? Aren't we paying for this game? Shouldn't we, paying customers, get the same or better service as XIV, which people have been playing free for a full year now?

It is hard not to believe that the plan is to kill XI when there seems to be so little planned for it. Raising level caps isn't a good replacement for real content.

In addition to more developers I would also like to place an order for more Camates.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafein

In addition to more developers I would also like to place an order for more Camates.

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There can be only one!

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

By new, is it new new or just recolored new? :X

*hides*

Edit: Also, Camate I miss your pumpkin head D:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/im..._halloween.jpg

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me too! lol he needs a turkey head for Thanksgiving :p (that is if you celebrate it :P)

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Originally Posted by Camate

There can be only one!

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niiiiiiiiiiice

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Originally Posted by Camate

Just to clarify one misconception I have been noticing for a while now...

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.

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Well I'm glad this myth is finally busted.


Also, "staff limitations" just got called up from the minors so I'ma be first on this deal.

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Originally Posted by Vold

Staff limitations!

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Originally Posted by Camate

I understand your feelings about the differences between FINAL FANTASY XI and FINAL FANTASY XIV. Please understand that these games are very different entities and just as it was stated before, the operational policies as well as the size of the development team are very different as well.

Just to clarify one misconception I have been noticing for a while now...

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.

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So FFXI is getting neglected compared to its younger FFXIV brother because??? You haven't really addressed the issue. We understand they are different games with different operational policies - what we don't understand is why FFXIV is getting so much thrown its way and we don't seem to be getting anywhere near similar treatment.

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"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.

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Then please answer this: If it's "not a factor", then why did they place all the new high level normal monsters in existing areas, instead of adding new areas to fill with them?

Inbefore they start consolidating zones. eg Dynamis-Apollyon or Abyssea-Nyzul.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Then please answer this: If it's "not a factor", then why did they place all the new high level normal monsters in existing areas, instead of adding new areas to fill with them?

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Clearly "staff limitations" lol.

Edit: I don't know how FFXI's monster system is designed but if its anything like stuff I've worked with in the past then adding a high level monster equates to:
- Pick existing model/texture set for family. (Say Spiders)
- Pick random word + monster type (i.e. Shoreline Spider)
- Pick random zone with a "shore" to make the name match.
- Decide where on that map they spawn (picking an empty area or deleting old mob from there).
- Decide how many will spawn in the area.
- Decide level range which when combined with mob family will automatically determine mob stats.
- Add 1 line of code to do all this and call it a day, or set the variables in a GUI.

So about an "hour" (gotta account for forum trolling after all) but keep in mind this is assuming their coding supports simple implementation of monsters.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Then please answer this: If it's "not a factor", then why did they place all the new high level normal monsters in existing areas, instead of adding new areas to fill with them?

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Why should they bother with new zones when there's dozens of old zones sitting empty? The game is very top heavy with end game players. Why shouldn't zones be modified to reflect this state of the game? I don't buy the "thrill of exploration" reason I hear when this subject comes because from my experience, most people in pick up groups can barely navigate heavy traffic zones, let alone out of the way zones. Fix old zones to make them worth going to aside from one or two missions, then worry about all new zones.

Lazyness/Cheapness/Corner-Cutting seem to be the issue here if it isnt PS2 limitations. There is No reason that FF11 should get neglected the way it is and FF14 pretty much gets told "do what you have to, to make this game work".

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Originally Posted by Aldersyde

Why should they bother with new zones when there's dozens of old zones sitting empty? The game is very top heavy with end game players. Why shouldn't zones be modified to reflect this state of the game? I don't buy the "thrill of exploration" reason I hear when this subject comes because from my experience, most people in pick up groups can barely navigate heavy traffic zones, let alone out of the way zones. Fix old zones to make them worth going to aside from one or two missions, then worry about all new zones.

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Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a bad idea inofitself to give some purpose to disuesd areas, but this also caused a fair amount of aggrivation for newer players or players leveling up a new job when they found that some of the quests they needed took them near very high level monsters when those quests didn't before. Even olf players long gone who came back to the game may unwittingly venture into one of these places and suddenly get killed because they didn't know about the changes.