Bully: it's really bad.

<__< LOL

If that's true(I know it's not still funny), then I'm quitting RDM.

Whatever the reasoning or excuse, Is abundantly clear despite Camates and others best effort, The suggestions they send from the NA/EU/Etc Forum get thrown into a trashcan as the devs JPONRY everything. the Q:A Questions make that clear.

Its clear some of the things we ask for are a bit insane, But after compiling a lot of ideas in this section, a lot of the suggestions seem very reasonable. Small things like allowing SA and TA to force a crit from any direction, but only receive DEX/AGI boost in correct position. Or widening the SA range to simply "Being out of sight" Like it was originally intended. Buffing Mug/Steal/Despoil, or at least splitting steal/despoil timers, and so on.

As far as RDM melee and Temper go, I think that spell has been in the .dats for some time, they probably didn't have a RDM update, and said "fk it lets add temper" and threw it in in the last minute (Hence why it had a farking 5% proc rate, probably designed back in 2004 When that would have been gamebreaking).

I'm fairly sure Temper is new, actually. I'm not sure SE actually listens to anyone at all when they make the Q&A. They may just be inventing both halves.

I think they use our mutual ignorance against us. The JP forums are probably saying "WRY ONRY RISTEN TO ENGRISH PRAYERS!?" When in fact they are just ignoring everyone.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I'm fairly sure Temper is new, actually. I'm not sure SE actually listens to anyone at all when they make the Q&A. They may just be inventing both halves.

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I've been thinking that for some time.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I'm fairly sure Temper is new, actually. I'm not sure SE actually listens to anyone at all when they make the Q&A. They may just be inventing both halves.

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Could have sworn, way back when i got altanaviewer, there was a Temper-esque spell somewhere in the White Magic Dats. I guess I could be wrong :(

That being said, Some of the questions asked really are just... IDK.

Also, I feel like half/all of the abilities they released were released purposefully bad, so when they "updated" them it felt like they were listening to us and doing something :P

I don't.. really believe that, Its too cynical, Just thought it funny.

I don't think the JP forums wanted treasure hunter either. But they don't complain about how fake it is like us, so the devs probably figured it would shut them up if they added it (I don't see any testing on there, so they may actually think this is a buff). I have read through a bunch of JP forums with Google translate, and a lot of the adjustments and questions are directly from the JP forums (ie. boosting the wyvern damage down effect that everyone in the English threads thought was great all ready.)

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Originally Posted by Airget

What if since THF is so caught up on it's TH effect, why not make an ability that increase it's dmg based on the lv of TH on the mob?

"Hunter's Instinct" -Increases damage based on current TH on the mob-
duration 30 second
recast 5 mins
TH=1(2% increase in damage)
TH=10(20% increase in damage)

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I just skimmed and missed this earlier, but something like this would be amazing. Even if it only affected critical hits or had a similar limitation, it would still be an amazing ability. One of Thief's main problems currently is that it's abilities don't work as well together as they once did, so Treasure Hunter providing a bonus to damage would be great.

I'm not sure it's an issue of SE only listening to one part of the community so much as one guy on the development team being less bright than the rest, or maybe the team as a whole having limited experience with certain jobs. At any rate, I doubt anything is intentional and I strongly suspect some dude on the Japanese forums who really enjoys Thief is screaming "WHY DO WHITE PEOPLE LIKE TREASURE HUNTER?!"

I want to Expand on Airget's Idea... Because it really is quite lovely.

Thief Job Ability/trait Synergy: How to make our abilities work in tandem!
Lets just get right too it.

-----Job Traits-----
Pilferer's Instict
THF:15
When Thief is set as your main job, Increases Your combat potency with each tier of Treasure Hunter Applied.
*"Potency" = Accuracy, Attack, Critical hit Rate.

Treasure Hunter 1 - Increases Accuracy by 5, Attack by 5, Critical hit rate by 2%.
Treasure Hunter 2 - Further Increases Accuracy by 10, Attack by 10, Critical hit rate by 3%.
Treasure Hunter 3 - Further increases Accuracy by 10, Attack by 10, Critical hit rate by 3%
Treasure Hunter 4+- Each Tier Above 3 increases Accuracy by 2, Attack by 2, and Critical hit rate by 2%

So, For those who are bad at math:

TH3 Will grant a total of 25 Accuracy, 25 Attack, and 8% Critical hit rate
TH6 will grant a total of 31 Acc, 31 Attack, and 14% Critical hit rate improvement.
TH12 Will grant you 43 Acc, 43 Attack, and 26% Critical hit rate (highly Unlikely)

-----Alternative------

Job Ability: Thief 15
Lowers Treasure Hunter Effectiveness in exchange for Combat prowess.
Duration: 5minutes
Recast: 5 minutes
*Reduces Treasure Hunter by 1-5 Levels (always max possible), And grants a Bonus To accuracy, Attack, and Critical hit Rate.

1 Level = Increases Accuracy by 5%, Attack by 5%, and Critical hit rate by 5%
2 Level = Increases Accuracy by 10%, Attack by 10%, and Critical hit Rate by 8%
3 Levels = Increases Accuracy by 13%, Attack by 13%, and Critical hit rate by 10%
4 Levels = Increases Accuracy by 15%, Attack by 15%, and Critical hit Rate by 13%
5 Levels(max) = Increases Accuracy by 18%, Attack by 18%, and Critical hit rate by 15%.

*Once Activated, TH can no longer be upgraded.
*Once Activated, TH effect is Lowered to a minimum of 0. (I.E, If you have TH2, It will only lower by 2 levels, thus the effect of Level 2, If you have TH7, It'll lower it to TH2, and you receive Level 5 effect)


**Unknowns, How this will effect other Thieves. Etc. Kinks to work out

Thats all i got.

I actually see 1 reason to use bully... Dynamis. We finally have a reliable JA to proc the JA dynamis mobs. If this then allows us to increase TH easier, then great. I've only done 3 dynas since the update, but in all 3, steal has never landed, and I'm always /nin for pulling, so I can't proc on the JA mobs.

(The fact that steal hasn't landed is unsurprising really since I have 0 steal + gear)

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I've only done 3 dynas since the update, but in all 3, steal has never landed, and I'm always /nin for pulling, so I can't proc on the JA mobs.

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Does it have to land to proc? I guess it does raise the chances a little, but 3min recast doesn't help much.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Does it have to land to proc? I guess it does raise the chances a little, but 3min recast doesn't help much.

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I'm 99% positive in order for Steal to proc, It either has to Successfully steal a Coin, Or Actually Absorb a Buff (Dispel wont work, Only Absorbing it from my experience)

But a Missed steal, and by extent, mug, Cannot proc. So both rather useless. So is a JA on a 3 minute timer. Still better off subbing DNC if your goal is JA mobs. >.O.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I'm fairly sure Temper is new, actually. I'm not sure SE actually listens to anyone at all when they make the Q&A. They may just be inventing both halves.

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On some JP Q&A (google translate) I saw quotes of specific people's posts and then Dev's answer. This does not get converted into EN, because original posts are in JP, so no point.
As for not listening, at least just after any version update SE monitor many forums in search of exploits/bugs people found (remember how fast 99999 Cures were fixed? or Nyzul weapons giving aftermath?). So they are aware what is being said. Taking it into account is another matter.
Things like 5 years later SE saying "we will look into PUP Damage Gauge & Scanner being bugged" can give you an estimate on how much patience and hope you'll need to have.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I actually see 1 reason to use bully... Dynamis. We finally have a reliable JA to proc the JA dynamis mobs. If this then allows us to increase TH easier, then great. I've only done 3 dynas since the update, but in all 3, steal has never landed, and I'm always /nin for pulling, so I can't proc on the JA mobs.

(The fact that steal hasn't landed is unsurprising really since I have 0 steal + gear)

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not jumping at you, but why /nin? As /dnc you don't lose that much survivability and in return you can help with step/flourish staggers. These days with my friends we go in and split into two teams: THF/DNC+PUP/DNC+RDM/WHM(cure/haste only) and THF/DNC+DNC/SAM. And we're still doing very fine (consistent 80-110 coins per person). To Beaucedine Glacier we even go without the RDM (well, she has access now, but cities are less crowded so we stick there these days). I bet your group brings at least 1 competent mage, so give it a shot.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I'm 99% positive in order for Steal to proc, It either has to Successfully steal a Coin, Or Actually Absorb a Buff (Dispel wont work, Only Absorbing it from my experience)

But a Missed steal, and by extent, mug, Cannot proc. So both rather useless. So is a JA on a 3 minute timer. Still better off subbing DNC if your goal is JA mobs. >.O.

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I've never seen Mug proc (I ride the timer anyway, why not...), as for steal, I -think- it procced yesterday while dispelling Protect. Usualy I just ride the timer, but I might start paying more attention. I get a proc from it like once a week or so. My friend doesn't bother and just spams it on whatever for that extra 0-2 coin per 2 hours.

Yah, Mug Cannot proc, since it technically has 100% miss rate because Dynamis Mobs don't have gil.

Proc'ing on a Dispel and not absorb i couldn't recall, so i went with my gut (since the only time i remember it procing was when i stole a NIN's Utsu). But procing with just dispel is probably likely.

Shame how wonderfully useless Steal is... Even using it every single time the timer is up, I get maybe 1 extra coin a run.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Yah, Mug Cannot proc, since it technically has 100% miss rate because Dynamis Mobs don't have gil.
[..blabla..]
Shame how wonderfully useless Steal is... Even using it every single time the timer is up, I get maybe 1 extra coin a run.

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Wait, wait! Did you just say procs >>> THF abilities and job traits? Blasphemy!
:p

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Originally Posted by Zirael

Wait, wait! Did you just say procs >>> THF abilities and job traits? Blasphemy!
:p

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Yeah its pretty awesome actually. They give us more Treasure Hunter updates to try and shut us up, but with each update they make Treasure Hunter less and less useful.

;)

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Originally Posted by Zirael

Don't get me wrong, I'm not jumping at you, but why /nin? As /dnc you don't lose that much survivability and in return you can help with step/flourish staggers. These days with my friends we go in and split into two teams: THF/DNC+PUP/DNC+RDM/WHM(cure/haste only) and THF/DNC+DNC/SAM. And we're still doing very fine (consistent 80-110 coins per person). To Beaucedine Glacier we even go without the RDM (well, she has access now, but cities are less crowded so we stick there these days). I bet your group brings at least 1 competent mage, so give it a shot.

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We go whm nin/war dnc/nin and thf/nin. So far we only did Xarcabard, idk if the towns are any easier, but the demons hit like a truck, and not having utsusemi for EES on rng mobs would be suicide (for a Taru at least).

I go DNC/NIN + WHM/THF dualbox and pull 120 coins per run not including 100s as long as I can avoid spacing out and wiping. I get a 100-piece about every 2~3 runs, so call it 150 coins per run. 1.5mil per run on my server, also known in some circles as 150 Alexandrite.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

We go whm nin/war dnc/nin and thf/nin. So far we only did Xarcabard, idk if the towns are any easier, but the demons hit like a truck, and not having utsusemi for EES on rng mobs would be suicide (for a Taru at least).

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Hmm, makes sense. I find fighting demons a bit impractical due to RNGs and NINs AoE attack. The plus side, TEs are easy as hell to get. Since you mention EES, can I ask you, do you turn your back (put on full EVA equipment) on JA mobs and spam steps and Violent Flourish until proc? If enemies don't get hit, they don't 2-hour, which makes alot difference with MNK and RNG. Not fighting to kill it as soon as possible might sound contrary to killspeed=morecoins, but not triggering Hundred Fists or EES can save you alot MP and TP from Waltzes. Also nin/dnc would help you proc faster.
Not really a secret anymore, so here are some famous camps to try out, if you fancy: Beaucedine Glacier orc camp J7/J8, Bastok behind Auction House, San d'Oria main plaza in front of Auction House, Windurst tunnel just as you enter zone. Only downside is, some TEs in cities require sleepga or sac pull, or pet aggo-pull. Have fun!

Will have to wait for official translation, but from what my JP friend is telling me, the TH upgrade chance got scrapped and instead you can SA from any direction while Bully is up. A JA useful for alliance play, a JA useful for solo. At least with this I'll make some use of it.

Now, if only SE changed intimidation chance from 0-1 per 30s to something like 0-0.1 and made it a 60s recast ability as a trade-off... :rolleyes:
Any takers?

they should scrap bully completely lol

The wonderful thing about even using steal+ gear (I have the entire set of items excluding Bartholomew's knife), is that the skill is still highly unreliable as far as successful item steals are concerned. And i think it is level based; there's no other attribute that really affect the success rate of steal.

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Originally Posted by RygaenYuui

The wonderful thing about even using steal+ gear (I have the entire set of items excluding Bartholomew's knife), is that the skill is still highly unreliable as far as successful item steals are concerned. And i think it is level based; there's no other attribute that really affect the success rate of steal.

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I did dynamis for like a year with no steal gear, then got bored and built a set. after 6 months I decided that I had a better chance of losing a coin due to full inventory than I had of stealing an extra coin. So I stored it all. Its that good.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I did dynamis for like a year with no steal gear, then got bored and built a set. after 6 months I decided that I had a better chance of losing a coin due to full inventory than I had of stealing an extra coin. So I stored it all. Its that good.

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/confirm. I still have so many Steal-pieces cluttering up my /sack, and even I don't know why. I didn't use them in a long time (and even if they would help, enemies have nothing worth stealing anymore).

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Originally Posted by Arcon

/confirm. I still have so many Steal-pieces cluttering up my /sack, and even I don't know why. I didn't use them in a long time (and even if they would help, enemies have nothing worth stealing anymore).

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I was just thinking that myself, I have all of the +steal pieces in my mog sack...I guess maybe I've been wanting ot /toss it actually but I'm affraid that the moment I do, they'll pull a fast one on me, make steal worth a damn and rabbit charm prices will skyrocket again.

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Originally Posted by Zirael

Will have to wait for official translation, but from what my JP friend is telling me, the TH upgrade chance got scrapped and instead you can SA from any direction while Bully is up. A JA useful for alliance play, a JA useful for solo. At least with this I'll make some use of it.

Now, if only SE changed intimidation chance from 0-1 per 30s to something like 0-0.1 and made it a 60s recast ability as a trade-off... :rolleyes:
Any takers?

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Link to that post: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post189532

Very interested to hear this translation.

Even it they did scrap the TH boost, being able to Sneak Attack while tanking more often is a boost to TH enhancing as well.

The JP post is pretty hard to understand via google translate but if that is the case it might be the best JA THF has gotten since Trick attack. I'm kinda pumped. I hope it's what it sounds like. I'm already running over the possibilities in my head.

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Effects during "blindsided" is enabled from the enemy behind the other.

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Is what I got from google translate...which I'm hoping does not mean that we still have to be behind someone else to land sneak attack....but I am very afraid that this might be what it means :confused:

The weirdness of pronouns and linking verbs and pretty much everything in relation to context within the Japanese language makes it really hard to know anything other than "it makes Sneak Attack work more better". It would be idiotic for the ability to make Sneak Attack into Trick Attack, but hey, when just-retarded-enough-to-sort-glass-for-living is par for the course...

Anyway, I just replied to it by quoting the ability and effectively saying "Thanks for the food!" because I'm fat and that's the only Japanese phrase I actually know the moon-squiggles for. So I hope it's actually good!

Not going to lie, If they change Bully to allow SA to work from anywhere during its effect, the ability just went from "crap" to "wtf awesome".

It will be a complete 180 in my book... I will be truly astounded and happy :X

I get this from Google:

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The effect of the back of the enemy from outside, "surprise" is in effect.

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Where "surprise" is Sneak Attack. Using other translation tools, it works out to roughly:

"The effect of Sneak Attack will also work when not behind the enemy."

or possibly, will work *except* for when behind the enemy; not sure on that. I suppose if you're gonna bully someone, they should see the attack coming...

So seems legit.

This would Friggin great if its true

If its changing it from "Working behind it" to "Working While in sight of it" i like it...

Not only does it open up SA from a solo perspective. It also gives you the ability to SATA from the front on mobs that can't be hidden from.

Consider also that the effect will probably apply to anyone fighting the mob. So with 2 THFs you would have a ton of window to do unhindered SATAs and this would also be a great indirect party buff if anyone is ???/THF. Particularly SAM/THFs who will be able to take advantage of SA and overwhelm at the same time.

I'll take SA over TH any day. Though I imagine SA TH proc will not exist when not behind the enemy as a trade off. I see that coming a mile away. You know, because things have to have a trade off.

Yes, if anyone /thf could take advantage of this (SATA-WS on tanks like in good old Byakko fights), that's a very welcome party buff for THF as well. Would help all those DDs in Voidwatch WSing and getting their heads ripped off immediately after.
Hell, by accident SE might have probably stumbled on one of those promised 'hate management tools' from manifesto with this.

i'm really not this excited. It's just once every 3min. One in 3 SAs. DNCs can still force crit within 1.5min with pretty much no restriction.

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Originally Posted by Laphine

i'm really not this excited. It's just once every 3min. One in 3 SAs. DNCs can still force crit within 1.5min with pretty much no restriction.

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Be that as it may, THF still has one force crit per minute with TA when tanking. You're looking at 2 DNC crits vs 4 for THF every 3 minutes. This is relevant because THF isn't going to be soloing what DNC does anytime soon. THFs are going to have a partner to TA on.



I've never had a downer attitude about dnc getting a force crit anyway. What I do have a downer attitude with is everything DNC has received in the effort to make it an attractive end game job and not just a fun side job. They haven't used their imagination because they're unwilling to or whatever(giving DNC THF dagger WSs, for example) and the result is a superior dagger job over THF in every way that really matters except it doesn't get TH3+. And in most cases any TH at all with /nin. I'm not saying THF has to be #1 but I don't want it to be a distant second, either. But it is. The only reason to use THF right now is for TH3 that's near useless unless the NM in question has a lot of HP and even then we aren't sure just how well TH12 performs in the grand scheme of things. That's just terrible.

THF will shine as the job it's supposed to be when it's JAs and traits stop sucking i.e. when SE stops with the being overly petrified of balance being in favor of the player. Like steal working more often than never on higher level monsters. Mug nabbing more gil than the time it takes to reuse. TH3 working normally and not a total skip out of the norm just to keep old school drop rates in check and for TH procs to be of some worth. How about hide working on everything. Despoil being removed for the worthless gimmick that it is in favor of something worthwhile and Empyrean gear adjusted to reflect, or at the very least make it relevant instead of not at all.

Point for me is, if the job did what it's supposed to do I might be happy with it. But it doesn't because SE has this idea in their heads that if it did it would wreck chaos on the economy and cause the end of the world or something. So we can't have that. We can't be super nice DPS because we wield daggers. We aren't dancer. We aren't BRD. So what we're left with is the best Treasure Hunter ability which is gimped because SE doesn't want the end of the world to come. So here we are, with our thumbs up our butts wondering if we're ever going to get anything worthwhile out of this extra leveling to 99 besides better gear. SE is so stumped right now with jobs that they're even giving TH away to them in an effort to make them desirable for end game. So I don't expect this situation for THF to improve anytime soon.