Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Draylo

(1)Thief is a great soloer, (1)can hold mobs very well with evasion, (2)in the past was a decent puller, (3)can enfeeble with bolts (zomg look, same thing you did for BLM). etc etc, stop trying to seem like THF does nothing but TH.

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1-awesome for party aspect...what part of an instanced fight will reqire holding mobs with evasion? Most are 1 boss...
2-in the past...key word, PAST
3-good luck

I guess we just have two opposite viewpoints here. I feel they should increase THF utility instead of focusing on DMG. I know what you are saying, a little boost in DD so THF can help DMG the mob is fine. I don't think there needs to be that when you can SA/TA for moderate dmg and do something else though. I feel we have a lot of DD already in the game, THF should have something unique that makes people wanna bring it to events, that something is enhanced loot atm and should be in the future. Most high end NM fights never even have more than a few people on it, THF can at least hit it with SA/TA. I don't think I would ever want a THF hitting away at a high end NM in end-game unless they dealt a large amount of dmg, which shouldn't define THF since it isn't a top tier DD. THF can also deal moderate numbers (and did at 75) with SA+WS. I would agree that a job ability to enhance dmg in that respect would be fine.

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Originally Posted by Nynja

1-awesome for party aspect...what part of an instanced fight will reqire holding mobs with evasion? Most are 1 boss...
2-in the past...key word, PAST
3-good luck

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1- If there is a fight with a mob that pops multiples copies ? I can think of Blodbignag and a few others.. It was an example.
2- Yes the past... there hasn't been a need for a "puller" anymore, but fights can be invented that use that. A lot of people used THF to kite off Jailer of Prudence with flee for example.
3- Good luck? It is the same deal as BLM, it can be used to crowd control if needed, sleep bolts etc.

Why not simply Improve SATA? that gives a bit more utility too. Add a JA that increases the mods of SA with each hit landed. 1) an excuse to melee, 2) Meaningful reason to do said act.

I'm all for more Utility as long as its the right kind of utility. Enmity control was not the right direction in my eyes.

Except now SE is obsoluting TH...and the change to Voidwatch is garbage for TH. Isnt it like...an extra 2% to light for every level of TH, and some lights go up to 250%?

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Originally Posted by Draylo

1- If there is a fight with a mob that pops multiples copies ? I can think of Blodbignag and a few others.. It was an example.
2- Yes the past... there hasn't been a need for a "puller" anymore, but fights can be invented that use that. A lot of people used THF to kite off Jailer of Prudence with flee for example.
3- Good luck? It is the same deal as BLM, it can be used to crowd control if needed, sleep bolts etc.

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1-The only way a thf is going to get hate on those extra copies that spawn attacking a different target would be to attack them, but they cant attack and hold multiple enemies at once.
2-Any job /thf could kite off JoP and die as well...
3-Good luck means with our C+ Marks you're not going to hit a god damn thing.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Steals that do something more than take an item would be nice. Taking an item doesnt help your party. at all.

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Broad statement, you don't even know what item I am referring to. If you were able to steal a lower tier drop, that eliminates competition for that item due to the THF getting it and maybe passing it on to other people, or stealing valuable synth materials to craft something for the group, like the voidwatch items. I did suggest steals that do other things though, they were all merely suggestions.

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Steals that work on ANYTHING MEANINGFUL (I.E Endgame content, NMs, etc) would be nice too. I would accept them so long as they didnt share timers and actually did something useful.

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Agreed

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yes, we're fine in Abyssea, another point i brought up in one of my countless posts in this very thread...

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I didn't read this whole thread, deal with it. I stated my opinion and I am responding to the responses.

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THF can't do any of those things you listed very well outside Abyssea. Have a THF Tank any T3+ Voidwatch NM... My concern isn't about Easy-mode Abyssea. Its Outside of Abyssea that worries me.

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As it's current use, it does tank end-game, which is still consisting of Abyssea. You are right, it probably won't for newer end-game, but it has its use in Abyssea.

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Because your thoughts seemed to be, judging only your first post "THF is fine you have TH, Give it more Steal and Mug abilities".

Which alone didn't sound very.. intelligent. but the elaboration did help

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Was that all that was in my first post? Thought I put enhanced utility and had more steal and efficient mugging as examples...


If you didn't reply the exact moment a post was made, and actually read the post thoroughly you wouldn't have to edit all the time, just sayin'

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Originally Posted by Nynja

Except now SE is obsoluting TH...and the change to Voidwatch is garbage for TH. Isnt it like...an extra 2% to light for every level of TH, and some lights go up to 250%?

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Its something like 20%? I don't remember, But its only when you Upgrade TH i think... I don't think base TH matters.

I'd have to look it up, Either way its very infrequent and as i said, if anything it just helps mediocre groups cap, and Good groups cap 5% Quicker. if even that

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Originally Posted by Nynja

Except now SE is obsoluting TH...and the change to Voidwatch is garbage for TH. Isnt it like...an extra 2% to light for every level of TH, and some lights go up to 250%?

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So TH is obsolete when it works on 90% of the content, but because 10% doesn't work its useless?

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1-The only way a thf is going to get hate on those extra copies that spawn attacking a different target would be to attack them, but they cant attack and hold multiple enemies at once.
2-Any job /thf could kite off JoP and die as well...
3-Good luck means with our C+ Marks you're not going to hit a god damn thing.

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1- They can be hit with a ranged attack and kited away from the main party, it was done all the time in the past or did you never use that?
2- Yes but why use a different job when you can use THF who can just come back and place TH on prudence? This also wastes that persons sub job when most people do more than one jailer. Again, it was an EXAMPLE.
3- There is a shitload of RACC gear in the game, in addition to sushi.....

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Originally Posted by Draylo

Broad statement, you don't even know what item I am referring to. If you were able to steal a lower tier drop, that eliminates competition for that item due to the THF getting it and maybe passing it on to other people, or stealing valuable synth materials to craft something for the group, like the voidwatch items. I did suggest steals that do other things though, they were all merely suggestions.

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Then Elaborate? it helps people understand what you're asking.

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I didn't read this whole thread, deal with it. I stated my opinion and I am responding to the responses.

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Then don't act all hurt when I say things like "I said this before" or "I've addressed this concern" when you're the one whos too lazy to read the thread. You don't even have to read far, I literally addressed it all on like, the second page. My opinion has changed a bit since then. But i do not feel that is a valid excuse not to read a thread and then expect people who you interract with to not get upset you're basically bringing up and saying things that have already been brought up.

Really, It just bugs me when you say things like "LOL YEW WANT THF BE GOOD AS WARS?!!?" When thats the one thing i constantly try to say I do not want.

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As it's current use, it does tank end-game, which is still consisting of Abyssea. You are right, it probably won't for newer end-game, but it has its use in Abyssea.

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Again, thats my only concern. Inside Abyssea i feel the job is amazing. Its outside content, where the game is going to go, thats worries me the most, Especially considering their recent "Vision" on the job being an insult.

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Was that all that was in my first post? Thought I put enhanced utility and had more steal and efficient mugging as examples...

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I was paraphrasing, i admit. Looking over i see TH being useful/amazing, and needing more Steal/Mug abilities. Utility is good too.

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If you didn't reply the exact moment a post was made, and actually read the post thoroughly you wouldn't have to edit all the time, just sayin'

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Actually, I read it all, And made a small post, then decided i wanted to go more indepth.

Don't assume, Makes you look like an Ass.

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1- They can be hit with a ranged attack and kited away from the main party, it was done all the time in the past or did you never use that?

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No, We used RDM's and Diaga, Like good groups usually do. Only exception is the Jailer you need to flee from.

Edit: I should make it clear....er.... That I agree THF getting some unique Utility would be amazing, But almost all Utility is already "spaced out". THF has really no niche outside of TH left to fill. TH is a good niche, i was just hoping it wouldn't be all we're good for.

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Originally Posted by Draylo

So TH is obsolete when it works on 90% of the content, but because 10% doesn't work its useless?



1- They can be hit with a ranged attack and kited away from the main party, it was done all the time in the past or did you never use that?
2- Yes but why use a different job when you can use THF who can just come back and place TH on prudence? This also wastes that persons sub job when most people do more than one jailer. Again, it was an EXAMPLE.
3- There is a shitload of RACC gear in the game, in addition to sushi.....

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When that 90% of content is outdated and useless, and that other 10% doesnt require it...yeah TH is useless broski.

1-Karb covered it, but to illicit a second response: doing /ra and running isnt exactly "evasion holding", its as you said "doing /ra and running away", which any job can do.
2-Why risk the thf dying and then getting no TH, or having to wait for thf to get up, might as well have the smn/thf do it.
3-So, after all this about talking about how weak thf's damage is, you're going to further hinder yourself by using sushi. high five

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Then Elaborate? it helps people understand what you're asking.

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I did elaborate in the exact post you quoted... jesus.

"Eliminates competition for that item due to the THF getting it and maybe passing it on to other people, or stealing valuable synth materials to craft something for the group, like the voidwatch items."

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Then don't act all hurt when I say things like "I said this before" or "I've addressed this concern" when you're the one whos too lazy to read the thread. You don't even have to read far, I literally addressed it all on like, the second page. My opinion has changed a bit since then. But i do not feel that is a valid excuse not to read a thread and then expect people who you interract with to not get upset you're basically bringing up and saying things that have already been brought up.

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Don't respond to me then, simple enough. Repeating yourself is so terrible, your fingers must be blistering *rolleyes*

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Really, It just bugs me when you say things like "LOL YEW WANT THF BE GOOD AS WARS?!!?" When thats the one thing i constantly try to say I do not want.

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Yeah I was asking a question... I think you might have took it the wrong way. I don't attack everyone in every post I make, although it seems like people feel that way on the internet all the time.

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Again, thats my only concern. Inside Abyssea i feel the job is amazing. Its outside content, where the game is going to go, thats worries me the most, Especially considering their recent "Vision" on the job being an insult.

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I understand that, it was a simple example though. Just like you gave enfeebling for BLM as an example, they don't enfeeble NM's in a party setting, especially in Voidwatch.

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No, We used RDM's and Diaga, Like good groups usually do. Only exception is the Jailer you need to flee from.

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Why waste the RDM when they can be used for healing or additional nukes? THF would only need to place TH, especially on something as evasive/PD spamming as JoP. Good groups? Last I checked, most good groups used THF just for TH in the past and the RDM dealt with the more important roles like... keeping people alive or contributing to the NMs death through nukes. Another example would be Salvage, the gear train or other areas where a THF sacs, also Dynamis.

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Originally Posted by Draylo

Last I checked, most good groups used THF just for TH in the past and the RDM dealt with the more important roles like... keeping people alive or contributing to the NMs death through nukes.

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rifl ^_^ ufunny

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Originally Posted by Nynja

When that 90% of content is outdated and useless, and that other 10% doesnt require it...yeah TH is useless broski.

1-Karb covered it, but to illicit a second response: doing /ra and running isnt exactly "evasion holding", its as you said "doing /ra and running away", which any job can do.
2-Why risk the thf dying and then getting no TH, or having to wait for thf to get up, might as well have the smn/thf do it.
3-So, after all this about talking about how weak thf's damage is, you're going to further hinder yourself by using sushi. high five

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How do you figure Abyssea is going to be useless.... lol. Empy weapons are useless, you heard it here first everyone.

1- Yeah but the other jobs can have more useful functions, it was a secondary role that THF can perform while not inhibiting efficiency much.
2- How do you figure you won't get TH? It takes time for the second JoP to despawn, enough for the THF to make it back and smack TH on. This was before you can just zerg them both down at 90 cap or the increase TH levels.
3- Again, something you seem to not be getting, it was an example. If THF secondary role is to deal with add control it is a viable option. Pro-Tip, sushi doesn't hinder damage if it enhances acc on something that is evasive like new end game NMs might be.

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Originally Posted by Nynja

rifl ^_^ ufunny

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You must have sucked at RDM then :/

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Originally Posted by Draylo

I did elaborate in the exact post you quoted... jesus.

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Elaborating before it causes a 2 page debate would be insanity then? Is it hard to flesh out your ideas and explain them in a clear concise way on the first attempt =.=a?. I'm not asking for 20 paragraphs just a little elaboration.

When someone sees more "Steal and mug", they will assume the worst. maybe its a human flaw. but should prepare for it...

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"Eliminates competition for that item due to the THF getting it and maybe passing it on to other people, or stealing valuable synth materials to craft something for the group, like the voidwatch items."

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So, an ability to steal an Item, of some sort, and transfer it to the pool? Good in theory, As long as it was useful items and worked on NMs. However, It would have to be a different Steal JA, I don't think it would be possible to program something like that into the current steal system.

However you could just trade it at the end? Just make steal work on NMs with unique steal pools and this could be interesting.

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Don't respond to me then, simple enough. Repeating yourself is so terrible, your fingers must be blistering *rolleyes*

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Read the thread then, Simple enough, taking 15 minutes to educate yourself on the posts in a topic must be so irritating. (roundabout is fair game no?)

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Yeah I was asking a question... I think you might have took it the wrong way. I don't attack everyone in every post I make, although it seems like people feel that way on the internet all the time.

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Bullcrap, Don't play the victum. I stated my opinion same as you and there was never a single personal insult. There was heat behind my words because I'm passionate about the job, You're as guilty as i am for exacerbating the situation.

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Why waste the RDM when they can be used for healing or additional nukes? THF would only need to place TH, especially on something as evasive/PD spamming as JoP. Good groups? Last I checked, most good groups used THF just for TH in the past and the RDM dealt with the more important roles like... keeping people alive or contributing to the NMs death through nukes. Another example would be Salvage, the gear train or other areas where a THF sacs, also Dynamis.

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And If im not mistaken almost all groups used RDM or some job with Diaga to sac multiple adds. Odin fight comes to mind. if we wanna talk about "Woulda-coulda-shoulda" you're correct. I'm only going by what was actually done.

Perfect example of how people are over the internet... I have one opinion about THF and getting extra utility and people come out of the woodwork just to flame for no reason. HERP DERP I AGREE WIT U BUT WE MUST RGUE ADDING ANY JABS OR PASSIVE AGGRESSIVENESS WE CAN MANAGE.

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Originally Posted by Draylo

Perfect example of how people are over the internet... I have one opinion about THF and getting extra utility and people come out of the woodwork just to flame for no reason. HERP DERP I AGREE WIT U BUT WE MUST RGUE ADDING ANY JABS OR PASSIVE AGGRESSIVENESS WE CAN MANAGE.

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Hypocrisy much? You're posts have just as much if not more passive aggressive sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

So, an ability to steal an Item, of some sort, and transfer it to the pool? Good in theory, As long as it was useful items and worked on NMs. However, It would have to be a different Steal JA, I don't think it would be possible to program something like that into the current steal system.

However you could just trade it at the end? Just make steal work on NMs with unique steal pools and this could be interesting.

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Yes, for example, some of the newer items added require synth mats from VNM chests. If a THF had an ability to steal those mats they could be used to synth those new equips for LS members or what have you. Yeah I meant for more steal abilities, basically what I am trying to get at with my opinions is that THF should have more utility in enhancing loot/gil for the collective. Being able to steal certain pieces of gear, or hell make some NM fights different by stealing temp items that can be used to paralyze or terror a mob for x amount of time?

It is Draylo were talking to...

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Originally Posted by Nynja

It is Draylo were talking to...

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Meaning? None of your posts in this discussion have been particularly exempt of what I just said.

Youre giving examples of what you think thf's secondary roles could be, and they're roles that ARE outshined by other jobs. Saccing? ANYONE can sac, theres no skill or talent involved in "aggro that and run and die far away". The only thing is thf has a greater safety net between flee and evasion, but any job can sac stuff.

I know that, you realize other jobs can enfeeble besides BLM? It was in response to carbuncle saying THF only did ONE thing and he listed BLM as doing nuking AND enfeebling. My response was listing things THF can do in addition to that one thing, like he did with BLM. Do people use BLMs as primary enfeeblers? No, they don't. Are they able to fulfill the role to some degree? Yes they can. Same thing applies to what I was talking about with THF.

Well, then i should clarify what i meant. we're generally only invited for 1 thing, TH.

Looking back, I can agree we're invited to kill ourselves occasionally, But i try not to think of that as a positive for the job, as it simply speaks louder on how bad the job is that the best use they can determine for outside of TH it is sac-pulling.

And I said that your "other roles" are dumb...atleast blm's have UNIQUE enfeebles as well. And your comment about status bolts is dumb. Even with all the racc gear, bumping C+ up with full racc gear is still probably equivalent to a naked A- weapon.

Does it make sense, at all, that one of the more complex jobs, between the multitude of necessary gear and JA/positional micromanagement still fall behind a "engage & hit WS every 30 seconds" job?

And for what its worth.

My intent is not to "come out of the woodworks and team up against you" (as i've been posting in this thread since about the time it started, So technically i was here first...), I'm only answering questions/concerns/giving opinions on posts i see i could answer.

Nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Nynja

And I said that your "other roles" are dumb...atleast blm's have UNIQUE enfeebles as well. And your comment about status bolts is dumb. Even with all the racc gear, bumping C+ up with full racc gear is still probably equivalent to a naked A- weapon.

Does it make sense, at all, that one of the more complex jobs, between the multitude of necessary gear and JA/positional micromanagement still fall behind a "engage & hit WS every 30 seconds" job?

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Unique enfeebles... wat? Sleep, stun are unique? The other roles aren't "Dumb" they were used all the damn time. Seriously, you are just trying hard to make my opinion seem invalid or something. People sac pulled with THF all the time. THF was a puller in dynamis, THF is a tank now in Abyssea. They are secondary roles... just quit.

I would say he's talking about "Break" but i think RDM gets that. Stun DRK has.. Sleepga/Sleepga II perhaps are technically unique, but Manifesto takes care of that.

Either BLM is still a great Enfeebler. Break/Sleep/Stun, and if /RDM, Gravity/Bind all greatly assist a BLM in certain situations.

Just like THF killing itself.

unique as in Break and Sleepga2, regardless of practical utility of Break lol...hmm I thought Break was unique to BLM, I never bothered getting it on any of my chars because it was useless.

Break isn't unique, SCH and RDM have it. Sleepga2 can be done with /SCH or SCH main or dream flower.

The only reason THF pulled in dynamis was TH.

They gave break away to RDM and SCH :(

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Originally Posted by Draylo

Break isn't unique, SCH and RDM have it. Sleepga2 can be done with /SCH or SCH main or dream flower.

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Cant cast Dream Flower on a moving target 21.5' away...and a stretch, but if the sch is on light arts, the time lost on swapping to dark arts then manifesto could be costly (seeing as how people care about 1% FC reduction, those seconds DO matter)

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

The only reason THF pulled in dynamis was TH.

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They also had flee which would be a waste to sub thf on other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Nynja

Cant cast Dream Flower on a moving target 21.5' away

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So move up to it, point was it isn't unique. Jesus, do you ever stop attacking people or defending your opinion? Give up.

Regardless rather it was unique or not.. It doesn't change that BLM is still a very adept enfeebler. BLM/RDM is very great at survival. Bind, Gravity, Break, Sleep II, Stun, etc.

But again, I admit THF is really good at killing itself.

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Originally Posted by Draylo

So move up to it, point was it isn't unique. Jesus, do you ever stop attacking people or defending your opinion? Give up.

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You never did a ***/thf dynamis? Live a little, lighten up.

Bind, Gravity, Break SLeep don't work on most End game NMs. Stun, I will give you that. The point I am making is THF does have more than one role available besides TH whore, if you don't use that secondary role it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I never use BLM to enfeeble when I have a RDM.

You know, How about improvements that boost the aspects of the job you think need improving?

Reduce Steal Timer down to 1 minute timer. Have it inflict Damage, Modded by DEX, Similar to Jumps, and grant TP.

Reduce Despoil to 1 minute, and remove its shared timer, Also give Despoil 100% Chance to inflict an Ailment, Regardless of rather or not an item was stolen: Also add sub-category for it.
*Despoil: Head - Induces head related Ailments. Silence/Amnesia/Blind/M.Acc Down/M.atk down
*Despoil: Body - Induces Body related Ailments. Paralysis/Slow/Attack Down/Defense down
*Depoils: Legs - Induces Leg related Ailments. Gravity/Evasion Down/Accuracy down

This gives you some control over which ailment to inflict. Could even go more indepth.

Mug*
Reduce mug to 2min~3min timer or less. Add "Aura Steal" to mug. Allow Mugging of Cruor.
Allow mug to deal damage, Modded by your DEX, and grant TP. Similar to jumps.

Edit:

New Job ability: (Both Similar to Feint)

Set up
*Enfeebling Magic Cast on the enemy after this JA is activated will gain a Boost in potency.
*3min Recast
*1min duration (or until next hit lands)
*25% boost to enfeebling magic potency/duration

Treachery
*Your next hit will increase the amount of Damage the Enemy takes
*5min Recast
*1min Duration (Or until you land a hit)
*Lasts 3 minutes.
*Enemy takes 10% more damage across the board.

exposure
*Your next hit will decrease the enemies critical hit evasion
*3min recast
*1min Duration (or until next hit is landed)
*Lasts 2 minutes
*Decreases Their Crit.Evasion by 15%

disperse
*Sheds 25% of your current Enmity.
*1min recast
*Useful to use with Collaborator. Allows THF to truly control Enmity.

Frame
*Grants 25% of your enmity to a party member
*1min recast
*Shares timer with Disperse
*Can only be used on someone who has hate on current enemy (I.E you couldn't use it on someone who hasn't acted on the mob, thus MPKing them technically)

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Originally Posted by Draylo

They also had flee which would be a waste to sub thf on other jobs.

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There was almost never a reason to flee in dynamis unless you were sacing.