Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I only really post to point out Dallas's flaws, still hoping beyond hope that he would finally realize them.

That and to have him respond to make a fool out of himself.

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I'm reasonably confident he's just doing stuff like this on purpose. You're not going to make him realize anything, because he's here for entertainment purposes.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'm reasonably confident he's just doing stuff like this on purpose. You're not going to make him realize anything, because he's here for entertainment purposes.

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Yeah, but without a need for him to reply, he wouldn't....I don't think....

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TL:DR; all the relic/emp weapons are built as devices to hit things with, regardless of job; If for any reason in the world you want to hit something with a weapon on your SMN, SCH, or BLM, these are the weapons to do it with. If you want a weapon that enhances the spells/abilities/traits of your job, then the mythic weapon is what you want. If you want to do the best possible damage in the cases where you swing your weapon, even if those cases are very rare, then the relic or empyrean is what you want.

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The concept of Relic weapons were to be the ultimate weapon for your class. This was not only from a player perspective but also from a storyline one. How exactly is a staff with no relevant BLM stats other than being a really pretty weapon considered ultimate? Because you can swing slightly better than the guy without the ultimate weapon?

Why aren't the melee Relics mage oriented then? Just in case that WAR wants to sub /WHM and backup heal? You never know.

For a long time SE stated they'd never make anything more powerful than relics because they represented the uppermost echelon of weaponry. When the mage weapons were getting smoked by craftable lvl 51s, the base knew that something was wrong.

What the relic weapons did show is how disconnected SE was from the base upon the creation of these weapons. It isn't like Mjollnir has relevant WHM utility in addition to being the ultimate club. It's just a vanilla club with an inferior weaponskill to the easily acquired Hexa Strike. Developer laziness for failing to adapt the weapon to the overarching playstyle of mages.

Mythics? They might as well be a myth with the numerous layers required to obtain one. Most of the layers being extinct content no one dare touch because Abyssea has thoroughly obliterated it. To top off the compacted crap, you still need 30k Alexandrite that as of now SE claims they aren't going to touch.

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The concept of Relic weapons were to be the ultimate weapon for your class.

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Wrong. They were designed to be the ultimate damage-dealing weapon of their weapon type.

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How exactly is a staff with no relevant BLM stats other than being a really pretty weapon considered ultimate?

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Its as ultimate as a staff can get if you want to swing one.

You're missing the point. None, and I repeat NONE, of the relic or empyrean weapons specifically enhance any specific ability of any job. They coincidentally synergize with jobs who primairly deal damage, but they still don't modify any of that job's abilities like an empyrean weapon does.

The Mythic weapons are the weapons built to do what you describe. There is precisely one for every job, and all of them boost some ability, trait or stat that the specific job values. The Relic and Empyrean weapons are NOT job exclusive (The ones that are, are only job exclusive because only that job is skilled in the weapon).

I know the mythics are made out of unobtainium. That's beside the point. They're still the weapons that serve the purpose you envision, not the relics and emps. Those weapons are built to be the best attacking weapons of that weapon type. Not the ultimate <insert job here> weapon.

again: The relic and emp weapons are the best WEAPONs, not the best stat boosters/ability enhancers. Whether you like it or not, the relic and empyrean staves are essentially the only good weapons of their type, barring a few of the other magian weapons; this should not be taken away from those who want it, and rather they should do another set of "ultimate weapons" that are more like the Mythics but not made out of unobtainium.

How would you like it if something you worked hard for, for a reason, was suddenly transformed into something that served a completely different purpose than what you originally obtained it for?

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even if those cases are very rare, then the relic or empyrean is what you want.

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Not alllllways the case. There was a time where standard weapons would outperform particular relics (and mythics; also can think of a few examples where that is still the case). Emps on the other hand, I can't think of any examples.

Well, Ryunohige curb-stomps Rhongo. OAT Polearm may curb-stomp Rhongo outside Abyssea too, idk.

Scythe also sucks pretty badly. I'd be unsurprised if OAT is better outside Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Not alllllways the case. There was a time where standard weapons would outperform particular relics (and mythics; also can think of a few examples where that is still the case). Emps on the other hand, I can't think of any examples.

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Er, pretty much this. With the advent of Empyreans, most people have forgotten than the majority of Relics were either complete trash or were within 1-2% of AH-able/Easily obtained alternatives to begin with.

It's why all the "Fix Relics" threads tend to just not make any sense to me. I mean, sure, Relics are "supposed" to be ultimate weapons. But who actually made one under the impression that it would absolutely change the game for them? There are maybe like 2 actual weapons that do that (Amanomurakumo, Apocalypse). Gjallarhorn was the only real game-breaking Relic. Even Aegis was woefully overestimated due to placebo error (Did not have enhanced block rate or block rate cap, only really served as a higher Def shield and Inventory+5-7 on MDT armor).

Spharai was only ever barely ahead of Destroyers. Excalibur was trash unless you actually used Turtle PLDs on things. Guttler was trash. Claustrum was trash. Mjollnir was trash for all intents and purposes outside of dicking around solo. Bravura was "the best", but never by much and Metatron was always crap. Ragnarok was trash. Kikoku was trash. Gungnir was trash. Mandau was decent. Not game-breaking, but it was a solid improvement, I'll give it that.

So you have a total of 3 relic weapons and 1 utility relic that didn't suck? Pretty awesome ultimate weapons right there.

Mythics are utility-weapons, and some of them are pretty badass.

Empyreans are what Relics should have been years ago.

Edit: Forgot Bow/Gun. Those were actually pretty decent, but mainly for their Enmity reducing WS properties rather than by any merit of the weapons themselves.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Wrong. They were designed to be the ultimate damage-dealing weapon of their weapon type.

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Except all the relics aren't designed to damage?

@75
Amanomurakumo = Ultimate GKT.
Yoichinoyumi = Ultimate Bow.
Aegis = Ultimate Shield
Gjallahorn = Ultimate Horn.

What do these four items have in common? They represented the upper echelon of gear for the classes that could use them. The GKT made SAM do it's job better, Bow gave RNG the ability to better control hate through a weaponskill, Aegis made PLD a harder target to kill and GHorn made BRD songs more effective.

The weapons were designed to be the best weapon for the slot up until SE changed gears with Abyssea. SE had a vision and it failed utterly with mage relics.

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Its as ultimate as a staff can get if you want to swing one.

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Devs designed the mage classes, know the gear/skill limitations set that make it impractical to melee on anything worthwhile (worse when these weapons were released) and still decided to release ultimate mage weapons designed to be used in melee combat.

Really shows you how clueless the devs were on this front.

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You're missing the point. None, and I repeat NONE, of the relic or empyrean weapons specifically enhance any specific ability of any job. They coincidentally synergize with jobs who primairly deal damage, but they still don't modify any of that job's abilities like an empyrean weapon does.

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The RNG relics help me control hate better.
The PLD shield helps me stay alive longer.
The BRD horn helps make my songs more potent.
The scythe gives DRK survival options otherwise non-existant.

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How would you like it if something you worked hard for, for a reason, was suddenly transformed into something that served a completely different purpose than what you originally obtained it for?

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Like I said before, if the relic Staff had the current stats plus a unique spell or something like 5mp/tic when equipped it'd at the least be useful for something other than melee.

It is clear that SE simply didn't want to bother taking the extra step to make the mage weapons mage-oriented so they simply lazily slapped acc/att on the weapons and called it a day.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Except all the relics aren't designed to damage?

@75
Amanomurakumo = Ultimate GKT.

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The difference between Amano and Hagun at 75 was incredibly minimal, Hagun was just amazing.

Between the 2hand update and the SAM nerf(though not nerfed enough) Hagun pulled ahead iirc

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

The difference between Amano and Hagun at 75 was incredibly minimal, Hagun was just amazing.

Between the 2hand update and the SAM nerf(though not nerfed enough) Hagun pulled ahead iirc

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At inception, the relic weapons were designed to be the best items for the classes that could use them. For years we got excuses from the developers that they had to tirelessly work to not create weapons more powerful than these weapons for the sake of balance.

When Amano was created, it was the best GKT in the game. When Claustrum was created, it was immediately inferior to an AH option in any condition that did not ask the BLM or SMN to melee.

Big difference.

Is it that difficult to realize when you give a class C rank melee skills, A rank magic skills and little to no melee options that the job is going backline? Mythics aside, the inequality between melee relics and mage relics is simply astounding. SE seems to be the only group that fails to understand this.

Melee relics allow you to play the class as designed while mage relics force you to do something against the mechanics of the game in order for weapon to function. It's just sloppy design at best and sheer disconnection from the base at worst.

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Except all the relics aren't designed to damage?

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Duh? this is a specific reference to relic WEAPONS? not relic SHIELDS or relic INSTRUMENTs? PLD and BRD, respectively, both have relic and empyrean WEAPONS, in addition to those other things.

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SE had a vision and it failed utterly with mage relics.

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The only visions for the relic weapons and empy weapons were:
1) special exclusive weapon skills
2) strongest damage-dealing weapon of that weapon-class.

It didn't necessairly succeed on #2 for all weapons, but you can tell thats what the intention was.

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Devs designed the mage classes, know the gear/skill limitations set that make it impractical to melee on anything worthwhile (worse when these weapons were released) and still decided to release ultimate mage weapons designed to be used in melee combat.

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They also release ultimate mage weapons that were designed to enhance abilities instead. These are called the mythic weapons. If you want an ultimate weapon slot item that does that kind of thing, get a mythic. Nothing is stopping you besides the difficulty.

I don't really have a problem with ADDITIONAL stats, and it's entirely possible that level 95 and 99 tiers will add special stats (though i doubt it, honestly). But I DO have a problem with going for a weapon because of the effects it has now, and then them transforming it into something totally different. Even if I want the resulting product, that doesn't mean I don't still want the thing I had before, because they have two completely different purposes.

There is NOTHING WRONG with having two effing damage-oriented staff-class weapons in the game. They will undoubtedly add another superweapon set in the future, and it will probably be ability-centric instead of weapon centric.

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It is clear that SE simply didn't want to bother taking the extra step to make the mage weapons mage-oriented so they simply lazily slapped acc/att on the weapons and called it a day.

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It's not about laziness. Frankly, I think DDs would feel cheated if we got both the exclusive WS that every other empy weapon has, and then added something more on top of that (new spell, more stats, whatever) without any of the others getting that kind of a buff. But if you just added something like this to all the weapons, on the other hand, then some of the DD weapons would be too ridiculously good and the staves would still be behind the other weapons in functionality, effectively.

There is no reasonable, fair solution to this other than add additional features to all weapons in future trials.

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The RNG relics help me control hate better.
The PLD shield helps me stay alive longer.
The BRD horn helps make my songs more potent.
The scythe gives DRK survival options otherwise non-existant.

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BRD: Not a weapon. Talk about the relic dagger instead. This is an apples to oranges comparison.
PLD: Not a weapon. Talk about the relic Sword or Great Sword instead. This is an apples to oranges comparison.
DRK: You got me there, but this is no longer an effect that's exclusive to DRK. Sanguine Blade would like a word with you, and that's not even a relic WS.
RNG relic doesn't help you control hate better; if you're talking about the aftermath, then, well, Gate of Tartarus helps you get MP back better. So what? All of the relic WS have an aftermath or effect that synergizes with the job.

Uh, Namas Arrow and Coronach are notoriously "Hate-free" WS. You control hate by being able to spam the hell out of those WS without being in danger of having your face handed to you like every other RNG in the game does.

Wildfire is the same way.

Ah, OK. well Every relic WS has some kind of special effect, either as the aftermath or built into the WS. The point is, they don't directly enhance any other ability or trait like the Mythic weapons do, and none of them have job-specific effects, other than certain weapons only being usable by one job (while others are usable by more than one).

As I've said before, I'd be all in favor of adding extra stats on 95/99 trials. But they can't really be job-specific because the weapons are not job specific. There is one weapon for each weapon class, not for each job.

I don't know, if I was going to remake the relic weapons I think I'd . . . write a thread about it. If I think "mage relic," the Claustrum I describe is what I'm thinking of.

It's rainbow staff, but it's enough better than rainbow staff that I would have gone for it without a second doubt back when I was mage-main.

Feel free to suggest a new set of ultimate weapons. Adding special mage effects to the existing ones is unfair to all the other weapons (if stuff isn't added to them as well), and transforming them into something different isn't fair to anyone who obtained one with the understanding that these weapons do what they say they do now.

You know, I have a 90 Empyrean (soon will have 2) from one of the hardest paths (Twashtar and Ukon, 269/350 items collected), and if they made the Relic equivalents superior in the next patch, I wouldn't say shit. Everyone who has an Empyrean should realize they're getting cut a break. I can't really sympathize with someone who does second-class work and cries about ending up with a second-class weapon, even if that person is me!

I don't think making Relics more powerful/different would destroy game balance or ruin the effort people put into their weapons, and I doubt any relic owners would have legitimate concerns with the suggestions I proposed. Plus, I go out of my way in that thread to maintain some balance between the big-3.

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Everyone who has an Empyrean should realize they're getting cut a break.

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No argument there.

One thing's always bugged me though. The Relic weapons ALWAYS have a chance to do multiplied damage. Are people considering this when they compare empy weapons and relics and say the empys are better?

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

When Amano was created, it was the best GKT in the game. When Claustrum was created, it was immediately inferior to an AH option in any condition that did not ask the BLM or SMN to melee.

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Let's not pretend that Claustrum was ever "discussed." There are much more believable lies out there.

If you wanna hear something funnier about Claustrum, At level 75, Primate Staff+1 under its Latent had a better DPS Value than Claustrum.

Its clear the Relic Staff was meant for Melee purposes, why? Probably because SE didn't expect Mages to stand back in every single fight. Obviously some fights were meant to keep mages backline, But I'm sure they had "visioned" Mages fighting by melee in very select fights.

Of course not every situation... And why anyone would go to such lengths for a Relic Staff is beyond me, but its intentions were clear, a heavy-hitting weapon that offered a way for Mages to melee and to an extent not worry about MP (Its aftermath).

The problem being, obviously, Elemental Staves increasing Nuke Potency/Accuracy, that and a Mages awful over-all DPS and Accuracy.

Rather its logical or not, the vision was clear. They expected mages to melee with these weapons, thats why on Claustrum, The aftermath gave you a heavy Refresh (better than anything possible back at 75 when it was released), and the Empyrean staff recovers a large portion of your MP, and (I think?) removes some debuffs (maybe something you're hit with meleeing!?)

Its was a rather unsuccessful vision due to the nature of weapons like Elemental Staves and now the Magian Staves. Still, One would have to wonder in some fights back at 75 would Meleeing for TP and recovering your MP Through Claustrum refresh have been better than Nuking > Healing MP > nuking? the answer is Probably not, Terrible Accuracy/damage, etc.

If SMN or BLM had an ~A ranking in staff and a bit better DD gear it might not have been so far fetched.

Oh well, Don't wanna go too far into a Claustrum Debate, God forbid i tread that territory.

Edit: The above statement is mostly in terms for BLM, SMN is another Story, as their only other marketable skill outside of Avatars is picking their nose and and tossing a cure or na.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Its was a rather unsuccessful vision due to the nature of weapons like Elemental Staves and now the Magian Staves.

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My avatars are free without any weapon. What situation makes those Magian staves worth anything?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No argument there.

One thing's always bugged me though. The Relic weapons ALWAYS have a chance to do multiplied damage. Are people considering this when they compare empy weapons and relics and say the empys are better?

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Relic OTD/DD rates are atrocious, and for the most part Empyrean WS are almost always the best WS available for the class when the Empyrean itself is worth making. Dagger is pretty much the only good Empyrean that sacrifices some damage to keep Aftermath ODD up, and even then I believe it's a bit ahead of Mandau.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

My avatars are free without any weapon. What situation makes those Magian staves worth anything?

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You should really really read my edit at the bottom that you seemed to ignore and/or miss

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Relic OTD/DD rates are atrocious, and for the most part Empyrean WS are almost always the best WS available for the class when the Empyrean itself is worth making. Dagger is pretty much the only good Empyrean that sacrifices some damage to keep Aftermath ODD up, and even then I believe it's a bit ahead of Mandau.

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I think 90 Mandau vs 90 Thwast is very close, Last i checked it Favored Mandau due to the 25% WS boost Relics received at 90, and slightly higher base damage. Plus in Abyssea with Mandau you can simply spam Evisc and still receive OTD, where as with Thwast you would have to use a gimp WS (Rudras is trash unstacked...) to keep up Aftermath every ~30(60?) Seconds.

Of course every debate i read has one guy arguing Thwast is better and one arguing Mandau is better.

That portion was not there. As one of two SMN in this thread that have figured out what goes in between BPs besides nose-picking, I can safely say that the only job that ever wanted melee staves for melee was SMN.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

My avatars are free without any weapon. What situation makes those Magian staves worth anything?

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I thought you don't use Minkin, and I know you don't have any perp gear at all, because you are all "melee or GTFO."

So how do you get free avatars without your "uber" emp weapon? By not summoning them?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

That portion was not there. As one of two SMN in this thread that have figured out what goes in between BPs besides nose-picking, I can safely say that the only job that ever wanted melee staves for melee was SMN.

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Monks don't exist, do they?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Monks don't exist, do they?

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No MNK would ever use a staff outside of proccing in abyssea or using it to skill up more easily.

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So how do you get free avatars without your "uber" emp weapon? By not summoning them?

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I gain 1 MP with full empyrean and no weapon at all on all avatars at all times with favor, and gain more MP with no favor if the weather is up. Fenrir and Carbuncle are always "free". normal avatars without the corresponding weather and no favor are -1mp/tick.

You don't EVER need 6 perp on staff unless you think getting the empyrean armor for your job is uncool. To just offset perp cost (favor off), you only need 1. To offset perp cost + gain full refresh benefit, you need 4.

If you are a summon+dismiss SMN there's even less point in ever wearing a perp staff as the MP savings will be minimal, 3-12 MP at worst (leaving 10 seconds to summon/bp/dismiss); you could just idle in a soulscourge and you'd never notice the perp cost. For anyone else, elemental staves STILL do the job. Why waste time to get more perp than you need?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No MNK would ever use a staff outside of proccing in abyssea or using it to skill up more easily.

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I've used my staff plenty. Not in my every day situations, but I've used it more times than you're giving it credit for

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No MNK would ever use a staff outside of proccing in abyssea or using it to skill up more easily.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

I've used my staff plenty. Not in my every day situations, but I've used it more times than you're giving it credit for

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Hell, I don't mess with MNKs that often but even I knew that they use staffs more than just procing.

SA fullswing was a great alternative to lolchi blast when they didn't want you meleeing on something.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

SA fullswing was a great alternative to lolchi blast when they didn't want you meleeing on something.

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Monks sometimes come as /THF?

Guess its true, you can learn something new every day. Unless you are talking about Dark Ixion, I already knew that.

Edit: Besides, isn't Penance worth having 5/5 for 100 seconds of 25% TP gain reduction? Or does Yurin: Ichi override/not stack with it?

They had me /thf DI once, didn't care for it. Came sam after that, lol. And it wasn't common back in the day, but was an alternative I used at times.

No one fights those HNMs anymore.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

They had me /thf DI once, didn't care for it. Came sam after that, lol. And it wasn't common back in the day, but was an alternative I used at times.

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I'm surprised they didn't have you build TP on surrounding mobs and WS on DI like I used to do.

Really, because I do?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No one fights those HNMs anymore.

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You said "ever"

and yes, while they're not a popular as before, people do still fight those monsters.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

My avatars are free without any weapon. What situation makes those Magian staves worth anything?

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Pretty uch any of the many situations where melee is risky

They're free with those too although regained MP =/= Free. The exact same logic can be compared to Myrkr my avatars are free what makes Myrkr worth anything?

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Originally Posted by Razushu

They're free with those too although regained MP =/= Free. The exact same logic can be compared to Myrkr my avatars are free what makes Myrkr worth anything?

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You misunderstood him. He said free without any weapon, which you were so kind as to quoting.

How can he use Myrkr without his staff equipped and whacking off on a mob? He isn't using any refresh atmas (they are below him, he even stated so) so he is getting free avatars elsewhere. The only thing that comes to mind besides Astral Flow is not having avatars out to begin with. That will really help out his damage output, now wouldn't it?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

You misunderstood him. He said free without any weapon, which you were so kind as to quoting.

How can he use Myrkr without his staff equipped and whacking off on a mob? He isn't using any refresh atmas (they are below him, he even stated so) so he is getting free avatars elsewhere. The only thing that comes to mind besides Astral Flow is not having avatars out to begin with. That will really help out his damage output, now wouldn't it?

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sorry misread thought he was saying SMN melee = unlimited MP again(because other styles don't offer that already)

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Originally Posted by Dallas

That portion was not there. As one of two SMN in this thread that have figured out what goes in between BPs besides nose-picking, I can safely say that the only job that ever wanted melee staves for melee was SMN.

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In a party if you're a good player theres lots to do between rages. And as for solo anything big it's stupid to melee on anyway