[dev1017]* Dancer Support/Healing Redux Idea (also /Dnc suggestions)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

Now, guess what.

You have to deal with the following:

Silence (since every skill under the magic categories can be silenced)
Magic Aggro
Resists
Skillup on "casting."

---

Since Dnc is unique in its Abiliys to use TP is it competely unimaginable that silence wont affect it?
I think not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

Also, you have spell interruptions (again, everything under the magic category can be interrupted).

And you would have to put EVERYTHING away from Job Abilities and make their own "brand" of "magic" in this case.

---

Again Dnc is unique in its Abiliys to use TP, is it competely unimaginable that you would only need to add Resists to Steps (which are virtually acc based since there is no additional effect)?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

Your example of Blue Magic is a horrible one. You know why? Blue Magic skill is required for 1 of two things: Learning Blue Magic and Magic Accuracy for either Physical Additional Effects (for example, Head Butt's Stun effect) or resist rates for Magical Attacks (for example, Magical Accuracy for 1000 needles).

---

It might be a bad example, its a pretty mutch reasonable explaination.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

How can you interrupt dance moves if they are instantaneous? You can run and use a dance move at the same time, how can that be the same as magic? Since when can you cast a spell and move at the same time?

---

You can not move while the Ability is executed. Its been that Way and will stay that Way. Try Autorunning and executeing a Waltz you will stop until the animation has run trough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

Also, having a Dance Skill category would do what? Affect enhancement potency for the DNC? What about those who don't have DNC or /DNC in your party? How would the potency affect them, since they are the ones who don't get the buff? Would you be rocking on a full buffed potency while everyone else gets a supergimped version of the same buff? That is not how dances work.

---

Its a Party buff therefore everyone get the version that was Cast. That was obvious to beginn with no?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

Also, you would now add another variable to steps. Instead of just accuracy to the steps, you now have magic accuracy added on too. Violent Flourish's stun accuracy is solely dependent on the mob in question; you can stun anything that doesn't have a strong resist, as long as you don't whiff that flourish.

---

Simply Wrong. Why would applying Stutter Steps (Lowes a Target resistance)
have any effect on Violet Flourish if you were correct? As long as Steps do not inflice any Dmg and for that reason the debuff is the only effect applyed by it. Its Ok to have only one modifier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

Now, lets get into the concept of getting skillups. How do you propose Dancers in getting skillups? By dancing? By steps? By Finishing moves? Are we looking at another 3 skill breakup as in the same way as Bard?

---

Like Every Jobs by useing its natural Abiltys So by doing your Job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

Also, you would have to introduce a lot more gear into the lineup for DNC skill....

My question to you really was: Is Dancer Skill really plausible?

---

I have no answer for that. but to make stuff really
useful in a Pary situaltion you would need a ton new 'Augments xxx effect Gear'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

Edit: Forgot to add this, but here is another thing.

If you make Dancer Skill into a magical category, you would have magical haste capped a lot earlier and lose ability haste cap that you could have otherwise hit. In other words, Dancer would now become pointless in capping haste (well, it already is, but still). You would have less of a reason to get DNC in a party to cap haste, since you can't have that nice 10% Haste Samba as a Ability haste and instead magical haste.

---

Essentially thats a very good Argument. I can only say yes that would be BAD but,
since you do not use MP but TP and the Job virtually stays the way it is haveing,
just a skill to modify you Abilitys to a degree. If a Job can cure with TP at all it can be magical and still not be affected by all that Stuff. And Still have JA haste

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sayelle

If you're in a party with people who are even remotely competent why would you have someone there /dnc when they could sub something infinitely more useful like /war or /sam. The only way it would happen is if you play with a bunch of gimps and retards and if that's the case then you have much bigger problems than /dnc samba overwriting the Main dnc.

---

And welcome to random Abyssea exp Groups. (Good reason to avoid them).

Also i would like to thank Korpg to think everything through as thu hes no conviced by the Idea^^

Anyway would like everyone be ok if i closed this Thread?
I think everyone has his/her position by now.
Or would anyone want to add something?

The fact is, if you make Dancing skill a magic skill, it WILL be affected by silence. Singing, Ninjitsu, Wind, String, Blue, Dark, Elemental, Enfeebling, Divine, Healing, Summoning can all be silenced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eri

You can not move while the Ability is executed. Its been that Way and will stay that Way. Try Autorunning and executeing a Waltz you will stop until the animation has run trough.

---

You can use a job ability while moving, even if it does root you momentarily. You can't use a spell while moving.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eri

Since Dnc is unique in its Abiliys to use TP is it competely unimaginable that silence wont affect it?
I think not.

---

If you are going to make it into a magic ability, it has to have all the weaknesses and strengths of being a magic ability. Including, but not limited to, silence.

Quote:

---

Again Dnc is unique in its Abiliys to use TP, is it competely unimaginable that you would only need to add Resists to Steps (which are virtually acc based since there is no additional effect)?

---

Again, you can't have a slice of cake without making the whole cake first. Making anything that a DNC does into magic qualities means you have to include everything that separates it from physical qualities. Which is resists, spell casting, spell interruptions, and silence.

Quote:

---

You can not move while the Ability is executed. Its been that Way and will stay that Way. Try Autorunning and executeing a Waltz you will stop until the animation has run trough.

---

Try moving at all while casting a spell, including near-instantaneous spells (dia, flash, and stun) and you will STILL get interrupted. Even BRD songs get interrupted, and they can have 20 mobs beating on them and not get interrupted at all.

Yes, you "stop" but you can START the ability WHILE moving. That reason alone is why this wouldn't be anywhere near magical qualities.

Quote:

---

Its a Party buff therefore everyone get the version that was Cast. That was obvious to beginn with no?

---

Here, lets play this little game.

Find two WHM friend, and have them both cast a Bar spell on you, one of them naked, the other one with a lot of enhancing magic equipment on.

You will notice that the WHM with the enhancing magic + equipment will have the better of the two WHM Bar spells.

Also, notice that you also have the symbol of whatever Bar spell they put on there. Does the other melee have your samba symbol on when they are attacking with you and you have a samba on? No. So how does the system determine what strength of samba to put on? Sure, it could see that XX player used XX Samba, but then ask yourself this: What would happen if 2 players have the same Samba, but both at different strengths? It would be confused if you include DNC skill in the equation, because there are too many variables in determining the strength of anything. Only way it wouldn't is if Sambas become AoE type spells, like Bar spells, and that is not how DNC works, is it? Adding skills would completely change DNC.

Quote:

---

Simply Wrong. Why would applying Stutter Steps (Lowes a Target resistance)
have any effect on Violet Flourish if you were correct? As long as Steps do not inflice any Dmg and for that reason the debuff is the only effect applyed by it. Its Ok to have only one modifier.

---

Violet Flourish does damage. Do you even play DNC? Heck, my DNC is at 49 and I know that.
Yes, Magic Accuracy does play a role in chance of stun effect, but most everything does not resist stun, so you can stun a lot of things. NMs build resistance to stun as the fight goes on, but thats for everything. Adding a new variable (DNC skill) would make Violent Flourish that much less effective. You are basically asking SE to gimp DNC.

Quote:

---

Like Every Jobs by useing its natural Abiltys So by doing your Job.

---

Let me ask you this then: Have you ever tried to skill up Summoning Magic by only the summon method? (Not including BP:R/W) It was a pain before they included the ability to gain skillups by BPs, and what you are asking is for everyone to start out from being at capped skill to being a 0 skill, at up to 3 different skill sets. At level 90. Assuming that so-called DNC skill will have an A+ rating, that is up to over 1,100 skill levels to gain until level 90 cap. Not including level 99 in the equation yet. That would take months to do, including the fact that some skills, like Waltzes, will take the longest to do.

Quote:

---

I have no answer for that. but to make stuff really
useful in a Pary situaltion you would need a ton new 'Augments xxx effect Gear'

---

That is still a lot of gear to change. Think SE would want to include this system based on changing the whole structure of augments alone?

Quote:

---

Essentially thats a very good Argument. I can only say yes that would be BAD but,
since you do not use MP but TP and the Job virtually stays the way it is haveing,
just a skill to modify you Abilitys to a degree. If a Job can cure with TP at all it can be magical and still not be affected by all that Stuff. And Still have JA haste

---

So basically, you want this to be a magical skill but operate under job ability rules? Think that SE, who is a stickler for making specific rules, is going to want this? Or players, who have played this game for almost 10 years, want to accept this adaptation of the rules to include something that would make a lot of people lives very miserable?

In end, I have given you many reasons why this would be a bad idea.

I hope this answers your query and know that most everyone, if not everyone but you, will say no to this new system.

Let call it cast time, you can't move while casting because you have to concentrate, while speaking a Formua right?

While dancing however its a Movement that Inflicts an effect.
That is in many cases of a Magical Nature thats a Fact.

Exapmples of that would be most of the Steps effects and also to a degree Sambas Effects.

Anyway im Offering to close the Thread if ppl are ok with it.

Sadly the only thing a 90 Dancer has that a Subjob Dancer doesn't is Waltz IV & V (both of which suck timer-wise), the Merited JAs (Fan/Saber Dance) and any of the post 75 Dancer JAs and such (Presto/Climactic & Striking Flourish and Feather Step). Think one of THE biggest mistakes was giving /Dancer Waltz III, everyone nowadays is going /DNC for tanking. Also giving Waltzes & Violent Flourish pretty much the SAME potency as main DNC was another huge mistake. Take it from someone who leveled Dancer before the 75-cap was broken (lolDNC back then), a lot about the level cap increase basically gave ALL other jobs what made DNC shine by itself. Personally I'd like to see double Waltz recast time for /Dancer subjob, and an Accuracy nerf to Violent Flourish when Dancer is subbed. You dont see people going /Bard on jobs (aside from yellow processes when no Bard mains around). Personally I believe that Dancer needs to have its own identity again, instead of being 'everyones subjob of choice'.

/DNC is only usefull solo and very low man grouping.

And Dancer was not loldnc at 75, anyone who thought so was just a moron and didnt know what DNC could do.

Well i might not made 1 thing clear enought in the OP i want some changes to certain things
they can or can not be Skill, the Skill idea was mine sure but it was an idea to adress certain Issues.


As for ppl that go like: No dont like the idea. Thats fine.
Im looking for a useful solution to seperate Main from support Job, so cool if you think my Skill idea through!
Though you are not Limited to Discuss my Idea, you are rather in the position to fine Solutions to serperate main and sub
I apologise for not makeing that more clear in the OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eri

Let call it cast time, you can't move while casting because you have to concentrate, while speaking a Formua right?

---

It can't have a cast time if it is instantaneous. In case you don't know what that means, it means that you do it instantly, no casting, you hit the button and it comes on, like a light bulb.

Quote:

---

While dancing however its a Movement that Inflicts an effect.
That is in many cases of a Magical Nature thats a Fact.

---

Magical in what way? I mean, you are converting your TP into an en-effect or cure or debuff. But for the en-effect to work, you have to hit the mob. In order for the debuff to work, you have to hit the mob. Curing doesn't require you to hit the mob, but to maintain cures, you have to gain TP, which means you have to hit the mob.

Spellcasting does not require you to have to hit anything. You can do it as long as you have the tools or MP to do so, or instruments to make it happen.

Quote:

---

Exapmples of that would be most of the Steps effects and also to a degree Sambas Effects.

---

Your examples require you to hit the mob for it to take effect. Even though almost all does not do any damage (with the exception of Violent Flourish) you still have to hit the mob for the added effect to take place. When you wiff your round of hits, your samba effect on the mob wears off until you hit it again. If you don't land a step, it won't take effect. Both require accuracy for you to be effective. What spell do you know requires you to hit something to take effect?

Quote:

---

Anyway im Offering to close the Thread if ppl are ok with it.

---

Go ahead and close it, you lost anyway, and closing this thread is a sign of defeat.

Knock yourself out if you want to close this. Just don't bring it up again.

But thanks for the laughs.

This thread is still going?

OK, here is the fact that seems to be escaping the OPs notice: DNC and SCH were designed to work effectively as subjobs from the start for melee and mage jobs respectively. They are WORKING AS INTENDED!

You even mentioned in one of your inane posts that light/dark arts give the main job a B rating in the respective magic skills. This was done ON PURPOSE to make SCH a better support job for mages who did not have the skills natively. SMNs and BRDs can sub SCH and not have gimped healing skill. They can also cast bar-spells and not have them be a total waste of MP and casting time due to natively crappy enhancing skill.

SO what is the difference between a main-job sch and a /sch? nothing more than the differences between a main-job DNC and a /dnc. SE just found 2 different ways to make them work that way: SCH with arts to boost the magic skills and DNC with JAs not based on skill at all; and not overly-gimped by formulas that are different for main or subbed DNC.

The thing that separates the main and subbed versions of these jobs is the tier of the spell/JA that is available to the player, as almost everyone who has replied to this post has told you. The higher tier splls/JAs of these jobs are not available when subbed, and the subbed spells/JAs are not overly-gimped. There is you balance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kimble

/DNC is only usefull solo and very low man grouping.

And Dancer was not loldnc at 75, anyone who thought so was just a moron and didnt know what DNC could do.

---

Sadly that was what I was told when I wanted to level it upon release in '07, and people didn't take DNC seriously enough. OMG it's only worthy for subjobing. Yes Abyssea has changed DNCs perspective a bit, but for the most part, it's still the same from way back in '07, everyone whoring /DNC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

It can't have a cast time if it is instantaneous. In case you don't know what that means, it means that you do it instantly, no casting, you hit the button and it comes on, like a light bulb.

Magical in what way? I mean, you are converting your TP into an en-effect or cure or debuff. But for the en-effect to work, you have to hit the mob. In order for the debuff to work, you have to hit the mob. Curing doesn't require you to hit the mob, but to maintain cures, you have to gain TP, which means you have to hit the mob.

Spellcasting does not require you to have to hit anything. You can do it as long as you have the tools or MP to do so, or instruments to make it happen.

Your examples require you to hit the mob for it to take effect. Even though almost all does not do any damage (with the exception of Violent Flourish) you still have to hit the mob for the added effect to take place. When you wiff your round of hits, your samba effect on the mob wears off until you hit it again. If you don't land a step, it won't take effect. Both require accuracy for you to be effective. What spell do you know requires you to hit something to take effect?


Go ahead and close it, you lost anyway, and closing this thread is a sign of defeat.

Knock yourself out if you want to close this. Just don't bring it up again.

But thanks for the laughs.

---

Actually i offerd to close it because i didnt see my own mistake in not makeing clear that im not 100% if Skill is the right solution to the overwriteing and the not increasing Potency of Ablitys.
You made me laught too so it was fun to discuss my Idea no?

Anyway IF anyone has a better Idea to Address these Issues im open to other sugestions.
Closeing is not a Sign of defeat to me but it will stay so ppl that may have Ideas (better Ideas?) can add them aswell!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrisstreb

Sadly that was what I was told when I wanted to level it upon release in '07, and people didn't take DNC seriously enough. OMG it's only worthy for subjobing. Yes Abyssea has changed DNCs perspective a bit, but for the most part, it's still the same from way back in '07, everyone whoring /DNC.

---

Abyssea didnt change DNCs perspective, getting Merits (namely haste samba merits) did.

And honestly, only morons you find in pick up groups /DNC. Anytime I do shout for something and someone comes melee/dnc, I tell them to use a real sub or dont bother taking them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eri

Actually i offerd to close it because i didnt see my own mistake in not makeing clear that im not 100% if Skill is the right solution to the overwriteing and the not increasing Potency of Ablitys.

---

I THINK I understood what you just said here, but not sure. If you made a mistake in your original post, you can always edit it so people can read it now and prevent "misunderstandings" like this. XD I mean, that's likely the first thing people read when they open the thread.

was meaning moreso the lowman groups (that and alt WHMs, but hey, thats their $12.95 lol)

Added an Edit to the OP for this Matter.

I still say you want a full change of Dancer job, one that would no longer be anywhere near what Dancer is today.

Why not ask for a new job instead of completely changing Dancer and still call it Dancer?

Omg lol... How about you add something productive that you would like to see
which doesn't change the Job to your understanding?
(instead of makeing rather weird asumptions)

I mean really i think we discussed my Idea and it seems to not be the best one around
(more like the only one around). However there could be better better ideas to adress the outlined Problems! Oh dont be that destructive, try to think of another plan.

(to distract me from 'wanting to change everything' >:). If its only for that reason thats fine too)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eri

Omg lol... How about you add something productive that you would like to see
which doesn't change the Job to your understanding?
(instead of makeing rather weird asumptions)

---

what if i think the job is pretty much right where it needs to be, at least outside abyssea?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eri

Omg lol... How about you add something productive that you would like to see
which doesn't change the Job to your understanding?
(instead of makeing rather weird asumptions)

I mean really i think we discussed my Idea and it seems to not be the best one around
(more like the only one around). However there could be better better ideas to adress the outlined Problems! Oh dont be that destructive, try to think of another plan.

(to distract me from 'wanting to change everything' >:). If its only for that reason thats fine too)

---

Wait, because I stated my opinion on the matter, it is not productive?

What do you want me to say? That I agree with you 100% and you are absolutely right, SE should change the job into your idea of what it is?

Because you are not going to get that.

Let me give an example, in this case to stop sambas from getting overwritten.

Idea!

You 'Tier' the Daze effects infliced on the mob by Sambas.

So: Aspir I > Drain I > Aspir II > Drain II > Haste Samba > Drain III >
Hasts Samba(Merrited)

Therefore a Mob would never get infliced by a Lower Tier Daze Effect.

So if you had a main Dancer casting a Merrited Haste Samba and a sub dancer in the Group that casts a Drain Samba I. Everyone would get the Merrited Haste Samba
instead of the person that hit last inflicting an alternate Daze effect.

that would be an Idea to prevent overwriteing. Dunno if its good but its an Idea.

I still don't understand why you're ever having trouble with people overwriting your Sambas. The people I play with aren't eager to burn their TP to give an inferior buff.

i got it!!! make all the sambas stack with each other

so 5 /dnc using haste samba = 25% JA haste
or 1dnc 3 /dnc use haste samba and another /dnc use drain samba
heck 1dnc 1brd/dnc 1haste mage/dnc and 3DD/dnc and get super haste and drain samba 4

think of the awesomeness!!!
melee mages would be hot no?

but seriously SE. i want more steps/sambas/jigs. waltzes need fixing. and t3 merits better rock!

how would you skill up? /dance?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

I still don't understand why you're ever having trouble with people overwriting your Sambas. The people I play with aren't eager to burn their TP to give an inferior buff.

---

Well some ppl that do that like subbing Dnc in a Pt Situation for whatever Reason
(dont get that either.)
and feel like use Abilitys given to them by dnc Sub. Which is not benefical at all :o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amanie

i got it!!! make all the sambas stack with each other

so 5 /dnc using haste samba = 25% JA haste
or 1dnc 3 /dnc use haste samba and another /dnc use drain samba
heck 1dnc 1brd/dnc 1haste mage/dnc and 3DD/dnc and get super haste and drain samba 4

think of the awesomeness!!!
melee mages would be hot no?

but seriously SE. i want more steps/sambas/jigs. waltzes need fixing. and t3 merits better rock!

---

Stacking Sambas would indeed be cool thu i think it would be a bit overpowerd....
(and i'm not really fond of Meeleing mages(Aspir Samba?)) also!
Anyway i'm thinking if you could Stack Sambas would it be like:
Haste (Yellow) + Drain (Redish) = 10% Haste+ Drain (Purpleish)
that'd be pretty funny and colorful!

On another Note im thinking about a system to increse debuff effects increaseing by lvl rather than Skill... that idea is not a finished concept yet thu (to make it fair for main and sub)

The assumption here is that there needs to be a gradual change: making things worse than they are currently, at lower levels, and increasing the abilities beyond their current strengths at higher levels. The other point is that Dancers shouldn't conflict with each other, Main or Support. I only agree on some points. I'll go through a few that I see here.


First: Sambas
Their potency is based on weapon delay and Tiers. Dancer gets higher tiers to increase potency, and when used as a support job, they do not get the highest tiers. The ONLY issue that I can see here is overwriting of Sambas with inferior sambas, but that can be handled with communication.

* I already suggested the Job Trait: Choreography (level 50) earlier in this thread to stop Dancers from stepping on each others' toes, as far as applying lower tier sambas and overwriting each others' effects. This trait would make Dancers more powerful with two in a group, or even a main with "backup" "/dnc"ers.
- This effect should be limited to "normal Samba" and "Enhanced Samba" (only 2 stages total). Either one can be on the target to create the "normal" Samba, but a Dancer Main's Samba must be up to gain the "Enhanced Samba" when anyone else is using the same type of samba. (two different sambas would not be enhanced - just communicate and use the same one!)
- Steps are already cooperative.
- No impact on Waltzes or Jigs.
- The only Flourish impacted by this Job Trait would be Desperate Flourish, increasing the potency of gravity, even when the "spell" version of gravity is already on the target.


Jigs:
Jigs are already limited in duration without the gear we have. I personally like fixed durations. No changes here.


Waltzes:
Waltz formulas already take into account stats at different rates for Main and Support. Dancer Main gets higher tiers of Waltzes. The only change I'd make is splitting waltz timers. This change should be for both Main and Support. It's a silly limitation - TP and individual recast timers are the only limitations needed on Waltzes: you just can't spam waltzes for very long with 300 max that drains quickly.

Finally Steps:
Steps already have a cooperative element built into them as all Dancers using the same steps will simply increase the level of the step, or extend the duration at the highest level (no fixes needed for conflict there.)

Now, I mainly use steps to build finishing moves. Which step is chosen isn't really all that important against most targets. I'd like our choice of steps to be more important. The main issue with steps is how they build in power over time as more and more steps are applied, which makes them have only negligible effects in short fights. Since there is no distinction, currently, between a Dancer Main and a /dnc's steps, (the existing game mechanic is all steps of the same type building on the same status effect) the power of a Dancer Main's steps cannot differ from support /dnc steps.

* The most complicated method would likely be be accomplished by allowing Steps to have varying power levels that build a step effect's potency. This would be an overhaul of the current step code. It would allow steps to increase in potency in more incremental amounts, instead of a simple "5 level" status effect. Dancer Mains would get stronger per-step increases than support /dnc. This would make it harder to see how powerful the current step effect is, since it would be handled similarly to how Haste is handled on a fractional basis, and we can't see the step's power level directly like we can see Haste on gear and add it up. (they could increase step "numbers" to show more incremental steps, but the current method of gaining finishing moves relies on the 5 step method to make dancers switch up the steps they're using to continue getting the most finishing moves per step, since they currently only gain 1 finishing move after the level 5 status effect is achieved, rather than 2 per step under level 5 effect.)

* A simple solution, though less incremental, keeps the "numbered" system in place. The difference being all of Dancer Main's steps increase the step level by 2, while support /dnc raises it by 1 each time. (Presto would have to be adjusted to +1 more level on its activation) This would allow Dancer Mains to bring their steps to full power quicker than support jobs, which is a major bonus when you consider the Damage caused by the rest of the party for the durations that certain levels of each step are on the enemy. A further bonus to this change is that Dancer mains could keep more level 5 effects up at a time, or build steps back to level 5 faster when they let certain steps drop off.



That's all I'd do about existing abilities in the light of Conflicting with other Dancers and support Dancers, and improving accuracy/potency/duration of abilities as we reach higher levels.
(Unrelated to this post directly) I have many other ideas for additions to Dancer, though (link and link)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eri

Let me give an example, in this case to stop sambas from getting overwritten.

Idea!

You 'Tier' the Daze effects infliced on the mob by Sambas.

So: Aspir I > Drain I > Aspir II > Drain II > Haste Samba > Drain III >
Hasts Samba(Merrited)

Therefore a Mob would never get infliced by a Lower Tier Daze Effect.

So if you had a main Dancer casting a Merrited Haste Samba and a sub dancer in the Group that casts a Drain Samba I. Everyone would get the Merrited Haste Samba
instead of the person that hit last inflicting an alternate Daze effect.

that would be an Idea to prevent overwriteing. Dunno if its good but its an Idea.

---

What's keeping you from kicking that person who puts on Drain Samba and get a real DD?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AyinDygra

* I already suggested the Job Trait: Choreography (level 50) earlier in this thread to stop Dancers from stepping on each others' toes, as far as applying lower tier sambas and overwriting each others' effects. This trait would make Dancers more powerful with two in a group, or even a main with "backup" "/dnc"ers.

---

That Choreography idea of yours is the best one on this thread, hands down.

think my biggest 'beef' with /DNC still is the fact that they have access to most of the things that make main DNC great (specially for lowman situations). Still say giving /DNC Waltz III was probably the biggest mistake SE has made. I do like the JA Idea

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrisstreb

think my biggest 'beef' with /DNC still is the fact that they have access to most of the things that make main DNC great (specially for lowman situations). Still say giving /DNC Waltz III was probably the biggest mistake SE has made. I do like the JA Idea

---

Waltz III (or any waltz for that matter) as a SJ rather than main is severely underpowered as far as I have seen. It's viable enough for melee to heal themselves to not die, but still very nerfed.

Stacking Sambas might be a good idea, but that would be difficult to do, as the "Daze" effect on the mob is inflicted by the last melee attack under the samba effect. DNC attacks fast enough to simply keep overwriting with the more potent samba. Simply put, overwriting is no different than one mage casting Dia then another overwriting with Bio. Or, further down the line, a mage casting sleep on a mob then another person waking it up with DoT or melee. You just have to tell the other person to stop.

Doesn't listen? What's the shape of Italy?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

What's keeping you from kicking that person who puts on Drain Samba and get a real DD?

---

Ima nice Person at heart? =P No really im against kicking ppl even if someone
doesn't listen they learn it eventually~
I can't be like: 'I'm the DNC here all your Sambas are MINE!' can i?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AyinDygra

Finally Steps:
Steps already have a cooperative element built into them as all Dancers using the same steps will simply increase the level of the step, or extend the duration at the highest level (no fixes needed for conflict there.)

Now, I mainly use steps to build finishing moves. Which step is chosen isn't really all that important against most targets. I'd like our choice of steps to be more important. The main issue with steps is how they build in power over time as more and more steps are applied, which makes them have only negligible effects in short fights. Since there is no distinction, currently, between a Dancer Main and a /dnc's steps, (the existing game mechanic is all steps of the same type building on the same status effect) the power of a Dancer Main's steps cannot differ from support /dnc steps.

* The most complicated method would likely be be accomplished by allowing Steps to have varying power levels that build a step effect's potency. This would be an overhaul of the current step code. It would allow steps to increase in potency in more incremental amounts, instead of a simple "5 level" status effect. Dancer Mains would get stronger per-step increases than support /dnc. This would make it harder to see how powerful the current step effect is, since it would be handled similarly to how Haste is handled on a fractional basis, and we can't see the step's power level directly like we can see Haste on gear and add it up. (they could increase step "numbers" to show more incremental steps, but the current method of gaining finishing moves relies on the 5 step method to make dancers switch up the steps they're using to continue getting the most finishing moves per step, since they currently only gain 1 finishing move after the level 5 status effect is achieved, rather than 2 per step under level 5 effect.)

* A simple solution, though less incremental, keeps the "numbered" system in place. The difference being all of Dancer Main's steps increase the step level by 2, while support /dnc raises it by 1 each time. (Presto would have to be adjusted to +1 more level on its activation) This would allow Dancer Mains to bring their steps to full power quicker than support jobs, which is a major bonus when you consider the Damage caused by the rest of the party for the durations that certain levels of each step are on the enemy. A further bonus to this change is that Dancer mains could keep more level 5 effects up at a time, or build steps back to level 5 faster when they let certain steps drop off.

---

Steps
I thought the same at start but increasing the Tiers gained by only one step maybe proves to be overpowering as in being able to keep 3 Steps at full Tier all time.
Also Presto does that... which leads me to the following.
Why not adjusting the recasttimer for Presto from 30 seconds to 20 second,
and the Duration from 30 to 45 seconds hereby allowing that you can hit a second step in case you missed one and also allowing a more frequent usage that results in higher potency of Steps.

Also lower the lvl of Presto to Something in the lvl 50s.
A Lower lvl Dancer needs to learn using it frequently so lvl 80 is just to high i shouldn't be subjobable thu. Lvl 50ish to clearly devide sub and Main
And Subjubs doen't need any adjustment in this example

Sambas

I had an intresting Idea!

I was thinking about Bard... then i realised something.
Why shouln't Dancer be able to get an Ability that is similar but weaker and a lower recast as Bards Troubadour?

"Memorable Dance" Lv 81

"Your next Samba will be increased by 1/3 of its Potency and Duration"

Recast: 6 Minutes

So lest take the all favorit Haste Samba an Combine it with this ability shall we?

You get: Haste Samba (Full Merrited)
Duration: 2:00 (AF head excluded) Effect: 13% (Rounded down) Ability Haste

How about this one?
(It a Samba Fix that seems fine maybe Korpg wants to adjust the rescast timer a bit)

I support the rest of AyinDygra's post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eri

Ima nice Person at heart? =P No really im against kicking ppl even if someone
doesn't listen they learn it eventually~
I can't be like: 'I'm the DNC here all your Sambas a MINE!' can i?

---

Then you can't blame anyone but yourself if your party sucks.

Also, why are you asking for my permission for anything? I don't care about DNC that much, I'm just pointing out some flaws that would make others hate your idea, before they voice it in a more aggressive tone.

Because you seem to know enought about the game to see if something is overpowerd or just right or absolutly disturbing, in the prospect of Jobs interacting in one party.
So i asked you to adjust that recast timer accordingly :p its not about Dancer afterall its about a Job or subjob played in a Group of ppl.

Edit: and for the kicking Part thats a rethorical question to myself, I could not justfy kicking anyone for that.... everyone makes mistakes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eri

Because you seem to know enought about the game to see if something is overpowerd or just right or absolutly disturbing, in the prospect of Jobs interacting in one party.

---

Having recast timers for individual Waltzes would be good. I don't think they would be overpowered at all because WHM/RDM/SCHs aren't limited to one cure timer. But then again, they have the most ability for healing, while DNC only has a static healing ability (very few equipment would increase potency for Waltzes).

Creating a skill for any Dancer ability would be horrible, because you are limiting the actual effect of all dance moves, not just one set of moves. Also, creating a skillset would also bring in resist factors, meaning Steps will have 2 points of accuracy, Physical and Magical Accuracy. So would all Finishing Moves. But I already have stated that in this thread.

Quote:

---

So i asked you to adjust that recast timer accordingly :p its not about Dancer afterall its about a Job or subjob played in a Group of ppl.

---

How would changing recast timers for all dancer abilities have any effect on any job that is not currently using Dancer as a main or sub job? I mean, sure, having separate timers for Waltzes would bring on the cures a lot faster if you don't have a dedicated healer, but if the DNC is the main healer, I would worry about being in that group as is.

Quote:

---

Edit: and for the kicking Part thats a rethorical question to myself, I could not justfy kicking anyone for that.... everyone makes mistakes.

---

There is a difference between mistakes and errors. Anyone can make a mistake, it is when you refuse to fix that mistake is when it becomes an error.

Having 2 DNCs in the same party(2 mains, 2 subs, or one of each, doesn't matter), one who uses Haste Samba, the other Drain Samba, that is an error if you don't fix it. If the person who is using Drain Samba continues to do so, even though you already told them to stop, it is the leader's responsibility to fix that "mistake," and assuming you are the leader, if you don't kick them (or threaten to kick them, but you should have already done that prior to kicking them) then the mistake becomes your error, and you have nobody but yourself to blame for that. Unless, of course, you are the one who is doing the Drain Samba, then the error goes to your party members for not leaving.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

How would changing recast timers for all dancer abilities have any effect on any job that is not currently using Dancer as a main or sub job? I mean, sure, having separate timers for Waltzes would bring on the cures a lot faster if you don't have a dedicated healer, but if the DNC is the main healer, I would worry about being in that group as is.

---

That Recast Time comment was directly directed to the "Memorable Dance" thing, as mentioned in that brackets.

XD but you made a good post there whatsoever! Anyway im against kicking....
i make evil comments till ppl leave by themself >_>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kimble

And honestly, only morons you find in pick up groups /DNC. Anytime I do shout for something and someone comes melee/dnc, I tell them to use a real sub or dont bother taking them.

---

This is still relevant several pages later. :)

I'll throw one out for Dancer sub.

So, we do not want 2 Ppl in a Group useing Sambas at the same Time.

So how about adding an Ability in the lvl 30-40s that renders Sambas unuseable,
but gives you further Benefit from any Samba (Daze) Effect present?

So if this is effect, a Dancer sub useing it, would be unable to use their own Sambas,
while getting more out of the Sambas of another Party member?

I would guess that everyone could benefit from that.
And its also an alternated solution for the Overwriteing Main to Sub.

You know, I still don't see any reason to have anyone sub DNC if there is a DNC main in the party.

People generally sub DNC when they are going to solo something (THF/DNC, NIN/DNC, MNK/DNC).

In a party situation, if any MNK, THF, NIN, WAR, or any other DD out there subs DNC for any reason, that is an automatic kick from that party as far as I'm concerned.

Why you ask?

Can a person who /DNC heal the entire party? No.
Can a person who /DNC increase their DoT as say /WAR or /SAM? No.
Can a person effectively tank as /DNC? Hell no.

I would question DNCs mainhealing parties, but I have been in a small group where our only healer was a DNC, and they did just fine, so DNC mains can do so as far as I'm concerned. Would I choose them as first priority (or even second/third priority) as main healers? No.

Adding that ability of yours Eri would do nothing to the party except make it worse off.

As the for ppl subbing dnc. Some ppl do that only for solo.
Sometimes you come accross ppl that are like: ' /dnc ! i dont trust the healer, rather be able to cure my self.' you can find such things in Partys.

I give you that, it doesn't give the Party anything but gimpy dmg output.
But then again i'm in the opinion that everyone can do what they figure too be the best solution.

Honestly I do see like a THF in party that subs /DNC over /NIN that makes me wanna cry but then again if im not in a leader position and i cant leave ppl needing my help (maybe) whever job i may go as . So in some occasions you can keep telling ppl like: 'Dude you could be doing Tons of more Dmg on another Sub' and you can excpect either thing happens.

1. They are listening and swiching that sub out. (soooo unlikely)

2. They say: '....And lose my exp chain here and Abys? Hell no!' (Abyssea only)

3. They go like: 'Don't tell me how to play my Job!'

4. You get ignored.


Well Dancer healing is somwhat limited to how much dmg you Pt would take (considdering long recasts)... by 75 if you had a Coli-Burn ~ if it was a good Group you could go like: DD/nin DD/nin DNC BRD BRD COR/WHM get the same or better exp then a normal Group.

But for the average group Dancer as a mainheal was a no-go in most cases, so you depend on ppl takeing not a lot dmg or have 1 person soak it up to pull that up.
(Dancer can only Spot Heal afterall)

As many ppl mentioned Dancer was designed to keep also the subjob utility in mind... they gave a bit of the subjob usability to /dnc in case of Dual weild.

Example of what 'could happen':
So Your in al lvl 50ish exp situation for whatever reason... maybe you wanna get Conquest points or something. Doesn't matter y.

So you ask ppl for Party and theres not a whole lot on seek.

You get a Pld, Some half asleep Drk, a Blu/Dnc, a War, a Dnc (who will only samba and Ws) and a Smn.
You took what you could cause you don't have a lot time to Seek!
You have Only like 2 Hours to Party gotta work next day!

The Blu is /Dnc for DW as thu /Nin would be a higher tier DW...

Your wont bother asking ppl to swich to go get exp while you are on limited time.

The party blows obviously! (You figured as mutch i guess)

So as the Dnc uses Sambas the Blu would get a kind of Bonus for no useing them.
Like +50 Attack or something (make it BIG lol should be less.), no idea what that Bonus would be but it would have to be noticeable.

A noticeable Bonus to justfy subjob Dancer in Party. Hell yes .
Because right now it for soloing and lowmanning and farming in cases but has no use as a subjob in a Party other then Gimping Dmg and disturbing Sambas.

I personally would not accept /dnc in party for any reason but you ocassionally just end up with something and you have to deal with it.

And i would like such a bonus (or a bonus along the lines of that) for not useing Two Sambas for 3 reasons.

1. Give them a good reason not to do it.

2. Helping an otherwise bad Party setup out a bit.

3. Getting rid of the Overwriting in another way.

And seriously dont ask me WHY ppl go to exp with a crappy SJ hell if i knew lol.
I seen i a few of times thu. It happens.

On a sidenote: Thf/dnc is a horrible Idea for any PT dont let me see that again. Ever.

no to dnc skill because it will make it a totally useless sub.
with stupid sub skill you wont be able to land a single step on anything EP +, so you wont be able to use any flourish (no FM if cant land steps)

Quote:

---

And honestly, only morons you find in pick up groups /DNC. Anytime I do shout for something and someone comes melee/dnc, I tell them to use a real sub or dont bother taking them.

---

if you have >2people meleing and not capped in delay reduction having one /dnc haste sambaing is a bigger increase in dmg than any other sub