Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Well, with meds, and brew, anyone can solo Ovni

I'm talking about straight up solo, no meds, no brew, nothing but job abilities and kiting.

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Yeah, THF can do it.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Even a SAM doesn't average 1 WS every 5 seconds. Its only possible with a brew.

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Completely false, see Greatguardian's post.

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WAR can 5-hit 100TP in about 8 seconds assuming 0 DA and 0 TA. Since they're rocking ridiculous amounts of both in Abyssea, yes, it's nowhere near "POIDH impossible" to average 1 WS/5s. It's called Haste.

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bullshiat. I know what haste is, but you need to be near the absolute cap to pull that off, and that can only be done with other jobs supporting you- And if you have those, I can too. Thus, the only gap in haste is what's on gear- SMN has haste the spell, so it doesn't need that, and the rest of the haste you need to get 100 TP that fast has to come from other sources such as haste samba, Hasso, etc.

You can sub SAM, but if I really wanted to compete in a epeen contest, I could too (but I probably wouldn't otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

bullshiat. I know what haste is, but you need to be near the absolute cap to pull that off, and that can only be done with other jobs supporting you- And if you have those, I can too.

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Here's the proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vybkARXCeCU

inb4 he wasn't solo, because who in the WORLD goes and kills seal NMs solo? You gotta be a total moron.

Oh and yes you can get march too, but your avatar- the real source of your spike damage- can't. Haste doesn't help BP recast at all.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

bullshiat. I know what haste is, but you need to be near the absolute cap to pull that off, and that can only be done with other jobs supporting you- And if you have those, I can too.

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"No shit, sherlock". You can get those all you want. Your Garuda can't. You go spam your 1k Full Swing in between 0 damage WS's at 80% Haste and see how well you stack up against an 80% Haste Ukonvasara.

inb4 "Teaming up doesn't count"

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inb4 he wasn't solo

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He wasn't solo.

As long as you can cap gear haste, anyone can attack that fast with all the support buffs.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

He wasn't solo.

As long as you can cap gear haste, anyone can attack that fast with all the support buffs.

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Yep, but SMN can't do 5k WS damage. Using TP. Not MP and BP Recast timer.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

He wasn't solo.

As long as you can cap gear haste, anyone can attack that fast with all the support buffs.

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Okay then. So you agree it comes down to how strong the WS is, and how much damage is being dealt per hit. Tell me, are you 6-hitting your Staff? Or 7? Low delay weapons are notoriously hard to x-hit. Oh yeah, what about your attack level? Maybe 500-600 including RCB? You're not capped on even trash mobs till ~800, GL capping on anything stronger on SMN/SAM.

Edit: SMN can't cap gear haste. Prove me wrong.

What's your point, anyway? This isn't about being the best DD ever. It is, however, about increasing SMN's damage output beyond what is typical of the job.

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Edit: SMN can't cap gear haste. Prove me wrong.

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I've never made that claim. And this is the ONLY disparity- being a 2hander, I could use Hasso if I really wanted, and all the other effects come from other people supporting that WAR, which means I can have all those effects too.
So we're talking about a ~2-3% haste difference, as far as I can tell. Big flipping e-peen whoop. I don't care.

This is really like talking to a brick wall, as you don't understand the purpose of this. So I will conclude by simply quoting myself from earlier in the thread, which other people have also quoted whom understand the point:

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Originally Posted by Tahngarthor

Is this strategy amazing, oh, my god the best thing there is for anything? No. Is it useable, viable, and effective, and does it expand SMN's versatility and capability? Yes, it does, and that's the whole point. I'm not suggesting anyone throw away their Soulscourges or bahamut staves or whatever else you might be using. But if you want to try something different that can be both fun and effective, that's what it's there for. There's nothing more or less to it than that.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

What's your point, anyway? This isn't about being the best DD ever. It is, however, about increasing SMN's damage output beyond what is typical of the job.

This is really like talking to a brick wall, as you don't understand the purpose of this. So I will conclude by simply quoting myself from earlier in the thread, which other people have also quoted whom understand the point:

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Wrong.

I know damn well that SMN can DD effectively as opposed to sitting on the sidelines using a BP once every minute. I have said so half a dozen times now.

The issue I take, and took, and that you ran headlong into on page 3 of this thread without bothering to read for comprehension everything that was being said, is simply Dallas claiming that SMN Emp Staff can do more total damage than a Ukonvasara WAR.

Your completely misguided, defensive and over-reactive freak-out at those of us claiming otherwise has simply allowed him to skate by and attempt to safeface with absolute pile of crap excuses like "herp derp I just said it to bring out the BG spies".

Realize that some of us arguing with you are on your side, and some of the people behind you are making it a whole lot worse for you.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

What's your point, anyway? This isn't about being the best DD ever. It is, however, about increasing SMN's damage output beyond what is typical of the job.

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Cool, so we are at an understanding that SMN is quite a poor DD. Using the staff makes it better than it used to be, obviously.

SE needs to get fixing SMN.

And that's about the only thing I can half-heartedly agree with you on, that the job could use a boost. But it's far from "broken." There's only so much they can do to increase its capability without making the things it's already good at (kite-killing) too good. It is not however, "poor."

Ignoring massive amounts of pDif/cRatio differences even when Haste is equal is nothing short of irresponsible anyways. SMN will never come close to being capped on Attack, and yes that is a big deal.

There isn't a massive amount of difference. And if you want to play the buffing game, again, whatever supporting buffs anyone else receives from other people, I can too.

If you're talking about 999 attack, I've seen evidence that attack is not really capped at 999 and that the equipment display is simply locked to displaying a 3 digit number. And I'm quite certain I can reach 999.

ITT: fucking pDIF how does it work

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The issue I take, and took, and that you ran headlong into on page 3 of this thread without bothering to read for comprehension everything that was being said, is simply Dallas claiming that SMN Emp Staff can do more total damage than a Ukonvasara WAR.

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I never claimed dallas was right on this, and I wasn't the one who made the comparison in the first place? So why aren't you attacking him instead of me? You keep quoting me and going at me over this, putting the burden on me to prove this and that, but I wasn't even the one trying originally to argue it!

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ITT: fucking pDIF how does it work

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http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/PDIF

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I never claimed dallas was right on this, and I wasn't the one who made the comparison in the first place? So why aren't you attacking him instead of me?

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I am.

I never said attack capped at 999. I said attack capped. cRatio caps. 2.2 for 2-handers. WAR doesn't need minuets to easily cap cRatio on a lot of things, assuming Berserk (fair enough since we're already assuming Smn/Sam and War/Sam are using Hasso which is native too). Since I pulled in bards, we may as well give the Smn Minuets in addition to marches just to be nice. Should we SV them too for fun? You're still looking at only 840~ attack if you assume 550 with RCB SMN/SAM.

No. That's not negligible.

Again, I'll say for the dozenth time, SMN hitting things is better than SMN not hitting things. SMN hitting things isn't total suck. But SMN hitting things cannot effectively compare its personal DD power to a "true" DD. It absolutely cannot. Be it WAR, or MNK, or NIN, or DRG. They will do more damage, and have a greater overall utility (aside from DRG).

Does that mean SMN is total ass? Meh. Depends on who you ask. It'll always be better than a total gimpcrap player. But comparing yourself to a gimpcrap player, or a DRK of any kind, is like kicking a toddler and bragging about winning the fight.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Again, I'll say for the dozenth time, SMN hitting things is better than SMN not hitting things.

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Ehh... you could get into situations where TP feed is a problem but they aren't as common as what 75% of the population does anyway (Farm 85 Empyrean mats till their eyes fall out).

Assuming abyssea, and non-heroes content, SMN hitting stuff would be better than SMN not hitting stuff. Otherwise the only NMs it would be prudent to TP on would be like Orthrus, Respheph, or Bennu, and only if your WHM has a great bar-spell or the SMN is changing to Titan every so often for Earthen Armor.

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Assuming anything where "feeding TP" isn't an absolute death sentence

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Fixed that for you. Not just Abyssea or just a certain area of it, any place and situation where it is OK to have more than one melee on a mob.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Ehh... you could get into situations where TP feed is a problem but they aren't as common as what 75% of the population does anyway (Farm 85 Empyrean mats till their eyes fall out).

Assuming abyssea, and non-heroes content, SMN hitting stuff would be better than SMN not hitting stuff. Otherwise the only NMs it would be prudent to TP on would be like Orthrus, Respheph, or Bennu, and only if your WHM has a great bar-spell or the SMN is changing to Titan every so often for Earthen Armor.

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Oh I'm definitely assuming if the SMN's in a group, they're being treated the same as any other "DD" as far as cures and TP feed goes. Of course, that's a somewhat outlandish assumption if only because I don't think it ever happens in reality.

ftr, the pDIF information/specifics on ffxiclopedia and gamersescape is 2-3 years old and at least partially wrong. Read the FFXIclopedia discussion page for more specifics.

Also, lol at the comments about soloing Ovni. I've soloed it on Dancer at 80 with Saber Dance / Haste Samba up the whole time, so I've no doubt that a Thief could do it. Yuna from FFXIAH did it on Dancer at 75. Sidenote though, BST gets TH3 with Dipper Yuly if they're lucky.

Fact of the matter is that Relic and Empyrean staves (and sometimes Mythic) suck for typical mage usage, which doesn't generate TP.

Well no native SB and a rather fast weapon, and no real SB gear either besides rajas doesn't help

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Well no native SB and a rather fast weapon, and no real SB gear either besides rajas doesn't help

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True enough.

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which doesn't generate TP.

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BLM and SCH do get TP for nuking, though I agree not at a high enough rate for it to be worthwhile.

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ftr, the pDIF information/specifics on ffxiclopedia and gamersescape is 2-3 years old and at least partially wrong. Read the FFXIclopedia discussion page for more specifics.

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I've looked over the talk page but it's kind of messy. I wouldn't mind some help updating the article if you understand it well enough to make the corrections.

(I put an outdated tag on the article- thanks for pointing that out)

There's nothing to update. Masamune successfully proved the formulas wrong, but no one has combined his data into a new theory that fits everything and delivers some calculation insight. The best we've done is made fits of the average pDIF for crits and normal hits, and the formulas aren't so far off that it's really worth updating just for that.

So the formula has changed but the new one still isn't fully understood then?

I realize for things like the damage formulas it's to be expected to some degree- but we shouldn't have to find math professors and statistics majors in our midst just to understand how important things in the game work. I mean, they know someone's going to figure stuff out eventually...

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

So the formula has changed but the new one still isn't fully understood then?

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He didn't say the formula changed, he said it was disproven (our model of it anyway).
Meaning this whole time we didn't know how it worked even though we thought we did.

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I realize for things like the damage formulas it's to be expected to some degree- but we shouldn't have to find math professors and statistics majors in our midst just to understand how important things in the game work. I mean, they know someone's going to figure stuff out eventually...

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Make a thread and ask SE nicely if they'll show you the damage formulas.

Square Enix: We'll give you that info right after we drop PS2 support.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Well, with meds, and brew, anyone can solo Ovni

I'm talking about straight up solo, no meds, no brew, nothing but job abilities and kiting.

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My husband got his Bullwhip Belt solo on MNK/NIN off Ovni. No brew, no kiting. He probably used a temp med or two but I don't think that would count against him. I solo'd it at 80 on RDM/NIN, which is about the easiest way anyone can kill Ovni. It's a super easy mob to kill regardless.

Well, I guess I did it the hard way.

Considering that I have neither THF, BST, COR, or DNC at 90, I guess my method has to be the best I can do.

BLM get TP for nuking? You learn something every day. I do get way more than I can use on SCH though.

(To a great extent because I wear a club with 0 club skill. Something I for fun decided to keep at 0 for laughs)

BLM got Occult Accumen in the last update, SCH and DRK had it from the update before. TP gain is based on the level of the trait, the MP cost of the spell and Store TP. BLM currently gets 1 level (TP=2.5% of MP cost). SCH gets 2 (5% of MP cost) and DRK gets 4 (10% of MP cost). In the end, all three jobs get similar amounts, though the DRK empyrean has one piece that enhances it by calculating the TP gain as if the MP cost were increased by some amount.

Occult Accumen I is subbable on DRK, so technically RDM can get the same trait as BLM (but doesn't have as expensive spells as BLM so doesn't get as much TP)

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

The issue I take, and took, and that you ran headlong into on page 3 of this thread without bothering to read for comprehension everything that was being said, is simply Dallas claiming that SMN Emp Staff can do more total damage than a Ukonvasara WAR.

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Speaking of reading comprehension, get some.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I don't have to deal more damage than a Ukon WAR, I just have to do more damage than an ice staff SMN.

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Post less, read more.

Oh hey. Safeface part 1, yes? You never replied to our original back-and-forth where I asked what spike damage you were referring to in this post here:

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Seriously guys, go look at the DOT numbers on Hver 90 and Ukon 90. Hver is 7.5% under Ukon.

Hver 90:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hvergelmir_(90)

Ukon 90:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ukonvasara_(90)

This is a source of damage that most BLM/SCH/SMN don't touch with a 10-foot pole. No, you don't have the melee skills to make your staff "WAR awesome," but WAR don't use Tier V nukes, Hate-free avatar damage, or any of our numerous buffs/debuffs.

Yes, you will lose spike damage. You will do more total damage.

Myrkr is miles ahead of Spirit Taker, which can miss. SE did a great job designing a WS to surpass Spirit Taker. Not all emp weapons have WS that people want to use, so mages got the best deal.

Relic and Mythic are much weaker due to less popular WS, but they still surpass common weapons.

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See, it sounds very much to me like you are saying "Hver does 7% less damage than Ukon in TP phase because I don't understand DPS, but we do more total damage because of BPs and T5 nukes"

So were you saying that you do less "spike damage" than ... I dunno ... a non-melee SMN? How are you doing less spike damage, exactly? You are still BP'ing every 45 seconds. I dare say you'd be doing more spike damage since you are not worrying about MP at all.

See, that sounds a lot like "Well, we don't have Ukko's Fury, but we'll do more total damage."

If that's not what you intended to say, what exactly did you mean by that post? Don't worry, I'm listening.

Didn't bother to read through the last 2 pages, but in regards of soloing Ovni, I have done that more than once as nin/dnc straight tanking it. No kiting (how the hell do you kite something that moves @ flee speed anyway) and certainly no pinning necessary. He's ridiculously easy.

GG, these details are in other threads. I can repost them real fast:

Spike damage for SMN = BPs & various WS options

"Yes, you will lose spike damage."

Hvergelmir does NOT increase BPs, unlike several other staves including: B.Staff, Magian, Nirvana. Myrkr WS does 0 damage as well. In all aspects, Spike damage will go down with Hvergelmir.

"You will do more total damage."

In return for that LOST damage, you gain DoT from a powerful weapon, much more powerful than any other staff (exception: Claustrum). This weapon provides so much MP that the SMN can wear full haste gear, keep the avatar out indefinitely and use full pacts.

Again, SMN is not buffed like a WAR, but we aren't WAR. We have plenty of other benefits. For example, SMN doesn't need to use shadows. We'll only get hit with AOE damage and have multiple sources for AOE cures.

I don't *need* to outdamage a Ukon WAR, because a WAR can't switch roles in a pinch. I do need to play my SMN assuming that "in a pinch" is never needed. If everyone is doing their job well, SMN is left to DD.

My Hver SMN is not the bottom of the DD barrel. I kill rabbits in Vunk at least twice as fast as a non-emp NIN. I didn't actually count, but the NIN sure cried a lot. SMN may have the strongest "pure pearl light" build for Abyssea. It requires Myrkr, because the WS can't give ruby light. That counts as "utility" in my book.

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(how the hell do you kite something that moves @ flee speed anyway)

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Simple... you just have to run until you're well out of sight to resummon.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Simple... you just have to run until you're well out of sight to resummon.

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You mean you run out of sight while your avatar is fighting so you can resummon when your avatar dies before Ovni catches up with you?

Anyways, I don't really summon much of anything as nin/dnc.

I made that post as a response to those that don't believe Ovni can be soloed by a non-pet job.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

You mean you run out of sight while your avatar is fighting so you can resummon when your avatar dies before Ovni catches up with you?

Anyways, I don't really summon much of anything as nin/dnc.

I made that post as a response to those that don't believe Ovni can be soloed by a non-pet job.

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I didn't think it was possible, but I was proven wrong.

What I do is pull Ovni in the middle of the two big crevasse, but on one end of the runway, have an avatar (Shiva mostly, but I switch up the avatars when damage starts to become resistant to a certain element) BP about 3 times, run to the other side of the runway and release/resummon in between BP timers, so when it comes back, I automatically BP and let the avatar get hate again, then run away after 3 BPs.

Apparently, I did it the hard way. But it was still fun towards the end.

I dunno. Scholar gets a pretty nice mythic...


http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tupsimati_(85)

Combining this with Atma bonuses.