Catch up mechanics for omen 20 hour lockout?

"I do not have the discipline to avoid overindulging in something that I perceive as important, please restrict access to it and save me from myself."

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

That's exactly the point that certain people seem to not understand.

We want options and choices, we don't want to be told "No, you can only do this content every x hours".

Ambu reward structure is pretty HEAVILY messed up but it's entry is perfect.

Omen is just a disaster.


That makes absolutely NO SENSE. Like, literally not a single bit of any sense.

You know you can "not burn through" other content, right? It's called making a conscious choice NOT to spam it.

However, omen doesn't let you make your own decisions, and tells you "You can do this once every 20 hours".

Why do you need content to be designed in a way for you to have self control over spamming it? Why is LESS CHOICES AND LESS OPTIONS/CONTROL BETTER?

Please explain your reasoning, because it doesn't make any logical sense.

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Having something structured to do w/ LS members is a nice thing in my opinion. It doesn't require a potentially large time investment, reduces pressure to get it done ASAP even if I must exclude all other in-game activities, and encourages actual personal ties between ls members rather than silent pugs w/ strangers who don't care one bit about you or anyone else in the group. I can't think of anything before that would be an accurate direct comparison, but for some reason it does feel like oldschool content to me. I'm also pretty sure that the CD will be relaxed and/or eliminated with time, so I'm no where near being capable of panicking about it.

I am not "for" the 20hr lockout, but I can understand and accept many of the reasons that it is there. I can be patient enough to slowly grind thru with my friends to get our upgrades, which as soon as I finish, I'm sure the CD will be reduced or eliminated.. orz

I see this as a far better system than Ambuscade.

Firstly, your points don't magically vanish every month like they do in Ambuscade. Secondly you don't have the entire server killing the same ten trash mobs every five minutes to get the KI, and then jamming up the entry zone.

I have said before, that the Ambuscade KI / rewards system is by far the worst event design I have ever seen in my long and painful life. People go crazy to spam Ambuscade at the start of the month, so they can build points before the end of the month Points Apocalypse occurs. People who may have wanted to xp on a certain type of mob that month, will find armies of high level players one-shotting those mobs for Ambuscade KIs. It is literally horrible.

I predict Omen will be tweaked in various ways, much like other content has been changed gradually to make it more user friendly. But it is better than Ambuscade.

In the old days, when people spent almost a year farming single pieces of gear, the atmosphere was less stressful. We fished and crafted and did merit points, missions etc. There was never this "have to get all the new stuff in non-stop burns" it was more like we arranged to do Event X on a certain day and time, and everyone saved their KI for that day and time, and we made an event of it. And we didn't expect to get anything much from that one run, we knew it was a long-term project.

So with Omen, I would see it like, you need to communicate with your friends and make a static, and arrange to do Omen at certain specific times. And to approach it as a Fun Adventure Battle, a test of your teamwork and game-skills, with some small rewards possible from each adventure. There are some strong mobs in Omen, it is a challenge and an adventure to defeat them. Challenging adventures are Happy Feels for many of us. Partying with our friends for challenging adventures, is Happy Feels for many of us. The fact that the gear is not the best in the game for many jobs, is just another reason to enjoy this battle as a static party adventure, fun times with friends, and gradually chip-away at the final armour pieces over a long casual time frame.

It would be totally different if this was the first ilvl 119 armour in the game, and you totally had to get it just to survive in the fields of carnage. But it isn't, and you don't.

Merry Christmas.

The 20 hour lockout doesn't bother me as much as the job card restriction; I want cards for a certain job but my party wants me on another job... kind of sucks; and no the 1:10 exchange doesn't help considering how few cards I get it would take me forever that way.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

So with Omen, I would see it like, you need to communicate with your friends and make a static, and arrange to do Omen at certain specific times.

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Schedule static only content doesn't work in a 2016 game with less than <300 players on at any given time on 75% of the servers.

Most of the gear isn't strong enough to warrant the lock out, at all. The majority of the best gear is drops from the NM's which can be farmed with relatively high drop rates and finished in a week or two. There is far too much of a restriction on gear that isn't even the best for the majority of slots/jobs.

If you're going to gate something so heavily, every single piece should have been an upgrade. They aren't - this content is heavily gated for absolutely no reason.

So I'm guessing 20 hour lockout is staying and working as intended?

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

So I'm guessing 20 hour lockout is staying and working as intended?

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Yes, it is. That is exactly correct. I'm glad you understand this.

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Originally Posted by detlef

"I do not have the discipline to avoid overindulging in something that I perceive as important, please restrict access to it and save me from myself."

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Well that's human nature... especially true in a game where the designers goal is to make things take as long as possible (or at least until they can churn out some more content) without making us rage quit lol. Lockout is one method putting excessive grinds that encourage spamming to get the rewards before they get supplanted by new content/gear is another. This unfortunately has both because unless you get really good groups you are looking at a good 100-200 runs just to upgrade a single set. Even without lockout you'd be looking at weeks of spamming to upgrade a set.

The apparently intended rate is what's out of whack. Like without even exaggerating it seems they want us to spend the rest of the year or possibly rest of the game farming this stuff up. But realistically people aren't going to do that if newer content with better gear comes out but if newer content with better gear doesn't come out at this point in the game people will quit anyways. They need to vastly up the droprates. An average soloer should be able to farm enough cards for a +2 in 1 maybe 2 runs instead of the 5+ it would take the average and a good static decently faster

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Originally Posted by Urmom

Well that's human nature... especially true in a game where the designers goal is to make things take as long as possible (or at least until they can churn out some more content) without making us rage quit lol. Lockout is one method putting excessive grinds that encourage spamming to get the rewards before they get supplanted by new content/gear is another. This unfortunately has both because unless you get really good groups you are looking at a good 100-200 runs just to upgrade a single set. Even without lockout you'd be looking at weeks of spamming to upgrade a set.

The apparently intended rate is what's out of whack. Like without even exaggerating it seems they want us to spend the rest of the year or possibly rest of the game farming this stuff up. But realistically people aren't going to do that if newer content with better gear comes out but if newer content with better gear doesn't come out at this point in the game people will quit anyways. They need to vastly up the droprates. An average soloer should be able to farm enough cards for a +2 in 1 maybe 2 runs instead of the 5+ it would take the average and a good static decently faster

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Exactly my issue with it.
Their timetable planned.. I just can't

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Originally Posted by Mithlas

Exactly my issue with it.
Their timetable planned.. I just can't

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I think everyone needs to calm down a bit about the lockout. ^^;; There is still a strong probability that the timer will be relaxed/removed with time. Devs are on holiday til February it seems, (no Jan FP, announcement of January campaigns a full month early, they flat out said they are out til Feb, etc XD) so I wouldn't expect to hear anything about it until at least then. Since the development cycle restarts in March IIRC, I'm actually more inclined to expect to have to wait til then to hear what their plans are for Omen in the coming year.
Actually.... Didn't they do something similar to this last year? Give us a long grindy thing to work on for Dec/Jan then actual update type stuff in Feb? (We were able to start working on Aeonics around that time, IIRC..) I wouldn't be surprised if the current setup is intended to just keep us busy while they are on forced vacation or something lol

However, if March rolls around and devs say that there will be no changes to Omen in 2017, then I will enthusiastically join the horde of complainers. -_-;;
I for one will be grinding patiently until at least then before I see any reason to panic. If you look at the current setup as a temporary setup, it's really not as bad as others make it out to be.

No, people do not need to calm down.
Changes happen when people complain and give constructive criticism/feedback.
Nothing changes when you blindly defend every single thing SE does and think it's great, because then the devs see "Oh no problems! Guess everyone is happy!"

Stop defending bad things so that SE doesn't see there's feedback saying it's fine, they should only see negative feedback regarding badly designed things to encourage them to change them more.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

No, people do not need to calm down.
Changes happen when people complain and give constructive criticism/feedback.
Nothing changes when you blindly defend every single thing SE does and think it's great, because then the devs see "Oh no problems! Guess everyone is happy!"

Stop defending bad things so that SE doesn't see there's feedback saying it's fine, they should only see negative feedback regarding badly designed things to encourage them to change them more.

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So... If someone doesn't want to join the angry mob, then they're not allowed to state any opinions?

I don't have any problems taking a short-term "wait and see" stance for now. As I just said, if March rolls around and there are not even announcements of planned reductions to the lockout, then I will happily pick up my Pitchfork+1 and join you in storming the windmill.

By then it's probably too late.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

By then it's probably too late.

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Three months of waiting does not seem like "too late" to me. Especially since it is likely that lowering the entry CD over time was intended from the start like I feel it was.

Good news though everybody! Confirmation on some sort of adjustment to time for Omen on JPside today. ^^
Post by Salalaruru
My japanese is not strong enough to actually tell exactly what the planned adjustment is (whether they are talking about time per floor or time allowed to complete objectives) but maybe someone else could help? It doesn't quote anyone, but I think it means that the timer to complete objectives is planned to be increased.. Could be wrong tho and it's time per floor. :x

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

I think everyone needs to calm down a bit about the lockout. ^^;; There is still a strong probability that the timer will be relaxed/removed with time. Devs are on holiday til February it seems, (no Jan FP, announcement of January campaigns a full month early, they flat out said they are out til Feb, etc XD) so I wouldn't expect to hear anything about it until at least then. Since the development cycle restarts in March IIRC, I'm actually more inclined to expect to have to wait til then to hear what their plans are for Omen in the coming year.
Actually.... Didn't they do something similar to this last year? Give us a long grindy thing to work on for Dec/Jan then actual update type stuff in Feb? (We were able to start working on Aeonics around that time, IIRC..) I wouldn't be surprised if the current setup is intended to just keep us busy while they are on forced vacation or something lol

However, if March rolls around and devs say that there will be no changes to Omen in 2017, then I will enthusiastically join the horde of complainers. -_-;;
I for one will be grinding patiently until at least then before I see any reason to panic. If you look at the current setup as a temporary setup, it's really not as bad as others make it out to be.

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Sure I think it'll be relaxed in the future. But if you think that when March hits, the 20-hour wait will be unacceptable to you then, why is it acceptable now? Only earning cards on the job you're on is incredibly restrictive, so many of the mini-objectives are melee-centric, and I feel that a lot of the objectives don't scale well with a full PT. These are more complaints about the content itself but it's harder to accept bad luck when you're locked out for 20 hours.

Also, the game's not in some super healthy state and 3 months could represent a not-so-insignificant chunk of the game's future.

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Originally Posted by detlef

Sure I think it'll be relaxed in the future. But if you think that when March hits, the 20-hour wait will be unacceptable to you then, why is it acceptable now? Only earning cards on the job you're on is incredibly restrictive, so many of the mini-objectives are melee-centric, and I feel that a lot of the objectives don't scale well with a full PT. These are more complaints about the content itself but it's harder to accept bad luck when you're locked out for 20 hours.

Also, the game's not in some super healthy state and 3 months could represent a not-so-insignificant chunk of the game's future.

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There's plenty of room for improvement inside the fight itself of course, and the dev post I linked is a good indication that they are not going to dig in their heels too hard about the details at least. ^^

Yes, that's a welcome change and will help to farm cards more efficiently. It doesn't address the re-entry time but hopefully it is a sign that an adjustment will happen sooner rather than later.

If it's spaming they're worried about, or just congestion (as Ambu had in the first month), there are a few things they can do that people have discussed.

- A reduced, but not removed cooldown. I think 3 hours should be maximum cooldown.

- Make the KI cost say 35 merits OR 10 JP (offer both as options).

People always talk in MMOs about devs struggling to make content as fast as players complete it. A reasonable lockout wouldn't make an issue out of this.

The job-based cards has got to go. I very much get the principal (Prove your mastery of x-job) but when Y job is better for a boss or for your group, what's the group supposed to do? It sucks telling friends you need them on X job. The pacing is way too slow to make this remotely acceptable.

Acquiring cards for a job you don't actually care about is the same as not going at all.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Three months of waiting does not seem like "too late" to me. Especially since it is likely that lowering the entry CD over time was intended from the start like I feel it was.

Good news though everybody! Confirmation on some sort of adjustment to time for Omen on JPside today. ^^
Post by Salalaruru
My japanese is not strong enough to actually tell exactly what the planned adjustment is (whether they are talking about time per floor or time allowed to complete objectives) but maybe someone else could help? It doesn't quote anyone, but I think it means that the timer to complete objectives is planned to be increased.. Could be wrong tho and it's time per floor. :x

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There ya go:

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Originally Posted by Salalaruru

バトルコンテンツ「オーメン」に関するご意見をありがとうございます。
[Batoru kontentsu "Omen" ni kansuru go-iken wo arigatou gozaimasu]
Thank you for your feedback(opinions) regarding the battle content "Omen".

いただきましたご意見のうち、目標の制限時間については、
[itadakimashita go-iken no uchi, mokuhyou no seigen jikan ni tsuite wa,]
Regarding your comments we received about the time restriction on objectives,

いまよりも長い時間設けるよう調整する予定です。
[ima yori mo nagai jikan moukeru you chousei suru yotei desu.]
there are preparations towards an adjustment where the timer will be longer than it currently is.

早めのタイミングでお届けできるようしますので、しばしお待ちください。
[Hayame no TAIMINGU de todoke dekiru you ni shimasu no de, shibaraku omachi kudasai]
We'll deliver it as soon as possible so please be patient.

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I like the job restriction, forces people to try things.
This games player base are so stuck in their ways and only play in the most boring way imaginable, so the devs really really really REALLY need to force people to try different comps/jobs.

The problem is a 20 hour lock out makes it so people are only EVER going to take what's the safest/best/guaranteed win, so no experimenting.

6 player max + 20 hour time gate = sterile boring comps.

20 hour lock out is ruining this content in more ways than one.

The job restriction "makes sense" in that it gets people to play other jobs. But it also sucks, cause good luck getting DRG cards. PUP cards. MNK cards. etc.

If you didn't lock cards to jobs, everyone would just pet zerg every boss.

Middle ground is exceedingly small.

10:1 is INSANE though.

I will say this though, some of the gear is totally legit, but most of it is meh at best. 20 hour locking it, and making it take 20 days per piece of +3 is pretty disgusting.

The job restriction is bad when you personally favor one job but are needed on another. Some jobs just flat out out-perform other jobs.

My Runefencer will probably benefit the most from these upgrades from the jobs I play (JSE is very important to RUN) but there are definitely times when my PLD better serves the group. I have gone PLD to a few and collected a few cards but I'd rather be on RUN. My RUN uses a few pieces of herculean but actually gets use out of JSE. PLD's JSE, being far less impressive for stats PLD wants, sits on slips mostly.

The system, imo, just asks you to choose whether you care about group progress or personal progress first, unless you happen to get to play job you want anyway.

In Theory, as a static it works perfect. You rotate who's turn it is to get "main job cards". Everyone slowly (emphasis on SLOWLY) wins.

It's how I ran salvage. one guy got the plans for his job, till he got a piece > next player.

As anything other than an organized static party of 6, it's totally unreasonable. Which is how the majority play.

But I can 100% see why they want this to be the way it's done. Can't fault them for WANTING it to be like that, but those days are gone for most of us.

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Originally Posted by Vae

If you didn't lock cards to jobs, everyone would just pet zerg every boss.

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That's the problem with this games player base. They resort to the least fun, least interactive, slowest and least efficient way to do things.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

That's the problem with this games player base. They resort to the least fun, least interactive, slowest and least efficient way to do things.

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Welcome to the species. That's a solid HUMAN issue. Not an ffxi issue.

Yeah, I could put square tires on my car... and be the only badass with sweet kicks... or I can just go the path of least resistance and use the round ones.

(I'll let you in on a secret, this game is not "entertainment" it. is. a. job. anyone who tells you different or thinks different is lying/fooling themselves. The objective is always to do it the most efficient way.)

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Originally Posted by Vae

Welcome to the species. That's a solid HUMAN issue. Not an ffxi issue.

Yeah, I could put square tires on my car... and be the only badass with sweet kicks... or I can just go the path of least resistance and use the round ones.

(I'll let you in on a secret, this game is not "entertainment" it. is. a. job. anyone who tells you different or thinks different is lying/fooling themselves. The objective is always to do it the most efficient way.)

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No, it's not.

Personal Anecdote: Some time ago I was doing Avatar VD fights. We were doing PLD RNG RNG COR BRD WHM. It was taking us 20 to 25 minutes to kill it. I managed to convince them to have the COR RNG RNG go DNC/RUN THF/RUN THF/RUN. Kill time went down to 5-10 minutes, and we had TH 13 on almost every fight.

This pissed the BRD off. We were doing it 'wrong'.

A lot of the time it's not about efficiency. It's about following the first discovered successful strategy to the letter, even if something else comes along that works better, because there's only one "right" way to do it.

It also comes down to efficiency is sometimes not "what works best and fastest" but "what is the most idiot-proof strategy".

This is particularly frustrating, as oft-times you can take a variety of jobs and still get it done, or get it done faster and easier than what the community is willing to take, and this shuts out a lot of people from playing on jobs they want to play.

Yeah, people play this game wrong and in the most inefficient way possible.
They play it "safe" and "first known strat/working strat" even if said strat takes 30 minutes instead of 5 minutes with a proper set up.

This games player base is really stuck in their ways, it's awful.

Playing with full mage/pet/ranged set ups isn't fun in the slightest and makes the game boring as hell.

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Originally Posted by Vae

The job restriction "makes sense" in that it gets people to play other jobs. But it also sucks, cause good luck getting DRG cards. PUP cards. MNK cards. etc.

If you didn't lock cards to jobs, everyone would just pet zerg every boss.

Middle ground is exceedingly small.

10:1 is INSANE though.

I will say this though, some of the gear is totally legit, but most of it is meh at best. 20 hour locking it, and making it take 20 days per piece of +3 is pretty disgusting.

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Yeah something like 3:1 would be a lot more acceptable. Atm player can't change jobs to something different and play for fun, nor run with a more optimal setup because of the job card lock.

Taken quote from another(horrible) website:

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And currently Omen would get ruined if you could spam it. If they add in more stuff there's a chance they could uncap it and give it plenty of playtime for people. Not saying they're going to develop logically, but the lockout is there because people like me quit with nothing to do and the 20 hour lockout on Omen keeps me from finishing it in a week and quitting again.

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This is why we can't have nice things. We have people who actually think this content is "good" and would be "ruined" because they don't have self control.

So SE decides to ruin this content for the majority of their player base to cater to the small minority with no self control that burns themselves out and consumes content immediately? Why cater to a small minority over your majority?

Ugh.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Taken quote from another(horrible) website:


This is why we can't have nice things. We have people who actually think this content is "good" and would be "ruined" because they don't have self control.

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And yet the majority of FFXI's content was always designed with lengthy refresh timers. It literally wasn't until "recently" did they actually design content to not have really long refresh timers, so the whole "feeling forced to play" has been relevant in XI since the dawn of the first end-game system in the game. You're only "forced" to play if you force yourself to play and not play because you want to.

Having forced myself to salvage every day for 6 years. Yeah, it's not a hard concept to see why 1/day lock outs are bad design.

I felt like shit every time I missed a day. And that's the actual purpose of the design. To influence your play.

Luckily omen is absolutely failure content, so I don't feel the need.

Once they add the money drops next week, that will change. and the compulsion to go everyday will start to irritate.

Next update:

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Get your hands on all-new rewards from Omen and new synthesis recipes utilizing those materials.

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So, instead of fixing this awful lock out, they decide to make it more rewarding?

My god..please, fix this.

Brand new year! Perfect time to fix this 20 hour lockout system and change it into something more player friendly for a game with <300 active players on at any time on 85% of the servers.

They did this kind of behaviour with Assault (Tags), Abyssea (Traverse Stones), VW (Voidstone), Salvage (Permit), Limbus (Soap) -just to name a few)- I don't really see the need to rush through content when there's still a lot of stuff that can be done relevant to the actual landscape. It actually gives you the incentive to plan this and join fellow players. If anything you can stack one KI and get another one right away provided you planned ahead. Eventually they will make it easier to enter at some point; probably when new content is released or a new "Tier" is added.

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Originally Posted by AoiX

They did this kind of behaviour with Assault (Tags), Abyssea (Traverse Stones), VW (Voidstone), Salvage (Permit), Limbus (Soap) -just to name a few)- I don't really see the need to rush through content when there's still a lot of stuff that can be done relevant to the actual landscape. It actually gives you the incentive to plan this and join fellow players. If anything you can stack one KI and get another one right away provided you planned ahead. Eventually they will make it easier to enter at some point; probably when new content is released or a new "Tier" is added.

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The people that play FFXI can't handle the old style FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Jakuk

The people that play FFXI can't handle the old style FFXI.

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Agreed. Short span rewards... where's the passion, the hard work, the sense of achievement?

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Originally Posted by AoiX

Agreed. Short span rewards... where's the passion, the hard work, the sense of achievement?

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Agree. They should start adding 20h hours lockouts everywhere. There isn't passion and hard work unless you wait 20 hours between one escha NM and another. Maybe Ambu too. Definitely restore Dyna lockout too.

That's the difference between one bad player and a good one. Their ability to stare at the lockout for 20 hours.

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Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki

Agree. They should start adding 20h hours lockouts everywhere. There isn't passion and hard work unless you wait 20 hours between one escha NM and another. Maybe Ambu too. Definitely restore Dyna lockout too.

That's the difference between one bad player and a good one. Their ability to stare at the lockout for 20 hours.

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You just have to optimize the limited time you got with the knowledge you gather. This is an event you can't just spam and hope to get lucky. It sucks even more when you lose. You don't want that to happen.

You can play like short attention spans or whatever, but that's not the case.

20 hour cooldown makes job selection and person selection really really awful.

I'll give you that assault tags were similar. Traverser stones and VW stones weren't nearly this bad.

Oh and guess what, you could queue more than 2 key items at a time in all of those cases.

Floor 3's random boss must be brutal on the wrong jobs. I haven't tried but I imagine nuking craver under 30% isn't easy and poor you if a nuke lands during Pain Sync on Thinker.

I have some friends that I don't want to take to Omen because I know they're not up to snuff. There are some jobs I don't want to see in omen because I know it's not optimum. I took PLD last night and PLD/BLU did just fine except that it's not nearly the DD or defensive support (hello valiance, even refresh) that RUN is. PLD also needs to /blu to chain aoe-tank. Run can sub literally anything.

What about the tremendous difference GEO makes on any of the t3 bosses? Every bit you ws harder is less chance for pain sync or less chance Craver will manage to kill someone.

Ambuscade doesn't present this problem, Reisenjima doesn't present this problem, there's enough HTBF to accomadate any job.

Edit: There are two or three NMs with difficult or tedious to obtain pops, like WoC but if you go as a group and farm the KIs, you have several to work with, even if you're still learning.

Some people liked Old XI, some people like modern XI, some people liked both. I liked both, but I acknowledge that the spirit of the game has changed and this present design of Omen has several problems.

People were talking earlier in the thread about Versatility. Versatility is nice but what if I don't care about cards for x job? The funny thing is that the answer is so simple for that: universal cards, rather than per-job, or 1:1 trade.

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Originally Posted by AoiX

You just have to optimize the limited time you got with the knowledge you gather. This is an event you can't just spam and hope to get lucky. It sucks even more when you lose. You don't want that to happen.

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I agree. Hence had a 20 hours lockdown to every endgame event please.

I don't feel satisfied unless there is a 20 hours lockdown between each escha NM. Don't you agree?