To the posters of this fourm, understand constructive criticism

Nobody cares if the OP of a stupid thread doesn't believe the people who correct him, but it gets tiring reiterating the same stuff to the same people. The very OP of this thread has posted incorrect information, denies any rebuttal and from as little as comments like "you're a moron" or "keep doing it wrong" (since there hasn't actually been any horribly offensive retorts) will report that user immediately. Then climb on a high horse and make these threads, ironic right? No it's not the end of the world, same can be said to those mashing report buttons from little comments, get over it, but at least research before saying something or it does just fall into the category of stupid. Then you will be told it's stupid. Don't be the type to refute and deny all criticism then make a thread about how others should give/receive criticism.
And as said above^ There's a lot of people who don't post here, and I'm sure we all want the best out of the game, so it is in our right to defend and debase ideas that could end up being implemented and destroying the game.

Well, think of it this way, if you perceive they're being outright reasonable, they can't report a post that isn't made if people just ignore it. I've long since disagreed with upping the Abyssea cap, as an example given earlier, as it would just shift people back into niche party groups like syncing to colibri or astral burning, which on their own carry their own job discriminations. Rather, I tend to favor buffing other areas to wind up in line with some kind of complained standard, which roughly doubling out-world EXP was a step toward. I still think SE needs to do more, particularly when it comes to FoV in the 55-65 range, but I can at least accept it as a start.

On some level, I think all of this is asking for more participation from the community team. In part, they're often a phantom presence until the hammer comes down or they have something report. People might be less inclined to report or just generally post vindictively if they can see some of the CT has been chatting actively in a thread. We don't really know where they personally stand on some issues, and while impartiality may be considered a good thing at times, as said, we're all human. We know they have their biases and its always slightly possible that our majority concerns could get drowned out by a personal opinion when it comes time to ferry our "issues" to the JP side.

What Ken and Karbuncle are saying, is definitely true. Sometimes the stubbornness and the butthurt "NO U!" attitude of some misinformed people on this forum makes me want to slam my head into my desk in sheer frustration - that's when I go to BG to vent, lol.

As for the OP of this thread - he is throwing rocks from inside a glass house, he is certainly no better than those he calls out when you read this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-and-Realistic.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Forum contributions aren't always immediate like that, and we can't even begin to fathom the impact our words make, good or bad, to those who simply lurk.

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I believe you worry too much about things outside your control. While we shouldn't completely ignore the impact of hurtful words, it's naive to pretend that they don't exist or hope that they never will exist. People will be people, no matter the venue of communication.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

I will never be convinced that malicious trolling makes a forum healthier and knowing that some random guy in his mid-20s decided to pwn a teenager isn't much of a win in my book. You'll never know what they'd do after, be it harm to themselves or transferring that rage and disappointment to others within reach.

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While I agree with the sentiment, this is a clear strawman argument. Not every person trolling is in their 20s, and not every person "under attack" is a defenseless teenager.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

In the end, a little FFXI misinformation is not the apocalypse.

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This sentiment is antithetical to humanity's ongoing, millennia-long search for knowledge in all its forms. While FFXI information is completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, the search and constant refinement of our collective information on FFXI is a reflection of humanity's curiosity and drive to discover and understand the world.

If you think the trolling here is bad, spend some time reading academic journals or attending conferences. You'd think that academics would engage in the purest of debate, but instead, it's no less combative than discussions here. It's as political as the discussions here. The same factions form in academia and they have here.

To illustrate that point, spend some time googling (if you're so inclined) and look into all the personal attacks suffered by Darwin after the publication of On the Origin of Species.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Well, think of it this way, if you perceive they're being outright reasonable, they can't report a post that isn't made if people just ignore it. I've long since disagreed with upping the Abyssea cap, as an example given earlier, as it would just shift people back into niche party groups like syncing to colibri or astral burning, which on their own carry their own job discriminations. Rather, I tend to favor buffing other areas to wind up in line with some kind of complained standard, which roughly doubling out-world EXP was a step toward. I still think SE needs to do more, particularly when it comes to FoV in the 55-65 range, but I can at least accept it as a start.

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Edit: See Eeeks.

Again, I'd like to say i agree with you on a lot of points, I don't think the first step should be angry responses, or name calling. But I also try to say, 9/10, The people who first resort to "name calling" and "Anger" are generally the people who come in threads like this saying they were "Trolled".

I hate to say this because i know I'll probably be reported for even speaking his name, But Rambus, the OP, has been guilty of basically flaming and insulting anyone who disagrees with his idea, No matter what. He's reported people for literally just disagreeing with him. He's actually the only person on my Blocklist, cause in another thread i tried to explain something too him, and he got me so upset i lost my temper. So instead of losing my temper again, I've resorted to just not ever responding to him.

And to KORPG, no, I don't think anyone will immediately reject someone based no past interactions, This is an unfair assumption. the only person who has earned that status is Hordecore, Cause he is most certainly an obvious troll. I personally judge each post individually, I can't remember any of your names let alone the generic Avatars, So i look at each post differently, I remember a few of you, like 4-5, but everyone else looks the same.

What you're likely seeing is repeat offenses. When someone makes a terrible idea, and in turn receives "constructive criticism", and goes on a "YOU'RE A TROLL" rampage, he loses some credibility, If he repeatedly does these things in multiple threads (Read: Hordecore) people lose respect for them. this isn't exclusive to here, thats life. Thats how things work in the real word. If you do stupid things over and over, you lose credibility, and thats how life works.

I always give people a chance regardless, But you cannot blame someone if they see a name and go "Oh great", especially if time and time over that said person has proven to be hot-tempered, or unreasonable. Its like on BG, i'll use Thorny as an Example. The dudes an over-the-top dick who felt the need to repeatedly shove his knoweldge down everyones throat. no one sees a Thorny post and expects anything other than high-horse offensive 12-year-old-insult crap. He was knowledgeable, but he was a dick.

What i'm trying to say, just like real life, everyone develops a "Persona". after multiple interactions, you can pretty much know how someone will react. But in fairness, I'm sure a lot of people, I know i do, give each and every post its own logical reasonable chance.


(OMG WALL OF TEXT I RAMBLE TOO MUCH)

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

(OMG WALL OF TEXT I RAMBLE TOO MUCH)

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You made me read words. Lots and lots of words! :o

/reported

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

obv needs a hobby

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ilu <3

(wat I need 10 characters ignore this part)

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

(Fellow Wall'o'text)
(OMG WALL OF TEXT I RAMBLE TOO MUCH)

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I know your pain. =(

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

I know your pain. =(

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Not enough words.

/reported

I guess in the end, I'm not quite defending those who are deserving what they get, but rather future targets once the current are run off, banned, or whatever. Using the same tactics for "lesser offenses against the truth" can get pretty murky and lead to an inhospitable atmosphere where people might be too afraid to post for fear of ridicule over even the simplest questions. Hell, I know I've been targeted before for my prolonged desire for RDM (melee) buffs or just even posting moderately on Alla for 8+ years, but I've perhaps been too stubborn to just roll over and die because some angry kiddies disagreed and do bring my own fights to them.

Eventually, some do just need to sit back and remember this is a game, though. I know that statement is lit dynamite to some, but not everyone plays to relive their days of Algebra II. Some just wanna see cute moogles doing moogle-y things, so of course they won't know about haste caps, fTP, and so on.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Eventually, some do just need to sit back and remember this is a game, though. I know that statement is lit dynamite to some, but not everyone plays to relive their days of Algebra II. Some just wanna see cute moogles doing moogle-y things, so of course they won't know about haste caps, fTP, and so on.

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Quick thing(LOL YA RIGHT INCOMING WALL OF TEXT). No one here is going to yell at someone for not understanding haste Values.

Its when they act like their way to play the game is right/better than anyone else and attempt to spread mis-information to everyone.

I remember a while back there was an incredibly informative haste-thread made here, and someone came in there babbling about using 1 gear set for everything and it being so cool and right, people jumped down her throat like no tomorrow because she was spewing false information as fact.

Its when people claim those who "Relive their Algebra II" days are trolling-elitist who can't have fun where the problems start. Or when people act like the only way to "Have fun" with the game is to be vehemently ignorant to game mechanics. When i try to tell them "Some people have fun by being the best, thats okay too" i get "SHUT UP TROLL".

Take a look at the "A ninja without throwing..." thread, it started as a minor disagreement on the idea, and blew up into a huge 200 post fest between like 4 people (me included) because the OP Simply did not listen to logic or how the idea he wanted simply would not fit in FFXI. Eventually some ideas came from the thread, but it was a mess.

I feel i should remind you i agree with a lot of your posts, but you appear to have a lot of misconceptions. These people will not just blindly "ALGEBRA" someone, Its when that someone begins throwing their misinformation at people like its correct that the other people will come in, and tell them they're wrong.

You're right, Seriha. The "lesser offenses" as you put it aren't really that bad. Usually these get a reply along the lines of "actually, I believe this is the correct answer" and followed by a discussion. Some of our more mathematical folks tend to overdo it (I know my head starts spinning when numbers get thrown out in rapid sequence!) but for the most part, usually the "lesser offenses" are simply responded to in a civil discussion with a gentle guidance and/or extreme mathing that makes everyone go "What? @_@". Usually the former, thankfully.

However, stubbornly fighting against these discussions is what gets us worked up. You brought up the haste cap; that's a good argument in my favor here. Naturebeckles was constantly stating things like "It's best to TP in CHR, DEX, and STR gear because they're also used in WS mods" because they didn't like to gear swap. They discounted haste a good deal. People stated that it was best not to fulltime said gear because it would hurt your overall performance. This led to a whole stubborn argument about how hitting the haste cap isn't all that awesome and you shouldn't gear swap because you blink and don't get cures (Which is an annoying argument for me in particular... haven't we pushed the <stal> or <stpt> point enough? Is it so hard!? x_X) and so on and so forth. It's posters like this that get the brunt of ire from those of us who can't take the (for lack of better words, and I apologize) stupid that's being slammed at us time and again.

We don't expect people to know all of the game mechanics like some of the experts. I know I don't know everything. But people claiming to be "the best" with clearly inaccurate knowledge is likely to get the worst when they continue to insist that they're right despite all the obvious logic pointed out to them.

Edit: Karby, I'm mad at you. You ninja'd me.

Edited Edit: YOU EVEN USED MY EXAMPLE. GAH. ;~;

I hate that "It's a game!11!" argument, yeah it is, and it is for everyone else playing. But it's a community game, if one player sucks and falls behind, you drag your group down with you, suck up their very real time. In any community event, be it games or interaction with other people, you don't just get to do whatever you want. Spreading misinformation exacerbates the problem. I'd expect most people would feel that way.

Sounds more like you and others got trolled in those particular threads, then. >.>

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Sounds more like you and others got trolled in those particular threads, then. >.>

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LOL, If you were only there.

My god, If you were there.

I think the thread is still up in General somewhere, go find it, then visit their FFXIAH Page, Its not a troll by any means.

Stupid = Stupid, not Stupid = Troll.

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

Edit: Karby, I'm mad at you. You ninja'd me.

Edited Edit: YOU EVEN USED MY EXAMPLE. GAH. ;~;

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You used it better^^

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Sounds more like you and others got trolled in those particular threads, then. >.>

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I'd agree (being one of those involved in the above threads as well), if I didn't know that people can and will most definitely be that dense without trolling. The worst part about all of it, really, is that even if they were the ones trolling, it's the well-read players who are attempting to help the playerbase as a whole who end up getting smashed down by both the Community and the Rules on the forums.

Unfortunately, being stupid is not an offense. Spreading blatant misinformation is not an offense. Trying to tell every new player that signs up to the forums that "Goblins Aggro to Sound" is not an offense, but for some reason, correcting these people and attempting to clear up their lies is. It is no longer even a matter of keeping the conversation polite and mature when simply saying "You're Wrong", even when it is a statement of fact rather than a personal attack, becomes grounds for Moderation. Granted, I know this is not entirely the fault of the Moderation team either. This sort of forced overreaction happens when people treat the Report button like a Get Out Of Wrong Free Card.

The OP of this very thread has been known to make callous, abrasive personal attacks on multiple other posters himself. Worst of all, he does so without actually knowing what he's arguing about (See: "NIN AF3 Needs more AGI" thread in GD). While he'll probably report me for this post, I do legitimately feel it is a prolific form of irony that the first to cast stones regarding "Personal Attacks" is no less guilty than any of the people he's criticizing. The OP of this thread, in that thread, demonstrates the worst kind of personal attack, as not only does it deliberately put down another player but it also contributes absolutely nothing positive to the thread and, in fact, only serves to further the spread of misinformation.

Probably the simplest solution to this would be to ensure that the GMs and those moderating the forums have an understanding of the game they're moderating. While I've historically been an advocate of the GM staff from a customer service perspective, it would be impossible to deny that the staff has shown an impeccable lack of understanding of the game. From being asked "What zone is Despot in?" to other such things, it is quite possible that FFXI jargon is as alien to them as theoretical math is to most of the playerbase (let alone Algebra II, from personal experience).

For a player, a thread OP may as well be making a topic called "Gravity is wrong. I think we should fly using the Heart of the Cards and Oxygen causes cancer.", and of course responses are going to range from "Uh... what?" to "You're just ... dumb."

But to some GMs, that same thread may as well be called "The quantum fluctuations in the 11th dimension of space-time correlate inversely to the relativistic attraction between microorganisms", and they'd only be able to see that the responses to the OP were rude at best.

Unfortunately, at the rate things are going, the only intelligent, well-meaning posters on this board are going to be banned from the forums indefinitely. Once that happens, I honestly do pity whoever comes here expecting to find half-decent information or feedback from a playerbase that actually plays the game's content.

As an Addendum, It feels like when someones reported, The person who deletes/Edits it doesn't even read the post.

I've seen some very well-thought-out nicely worded rebuttals to bad ideas deleted/modded simply because the person they were discussing with Abused the "Report" button.

Feels kinda like "oh he's got 4 reports, Better just delete it and send him an Email telling him to stop, Who needs to read if its a legit report?"

I don't say this is true for everything, But it feels like it after reading some things that have been reported/deleted...

I <3 you Krabnuckle and Kens.

On topic, the sad thing is that I'm sure sometime today that Rambus will come in here and start spewing fire from his mouth and shooting lasers from his eyes and yelling about how we are all missing the point. Which is really sad because I think for the most part we are having a decent conversation about forum behaviors and the root cause behind them.

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

You brought up the haste cap; that's a good argument in my favor here. Naturebeckles was constantly stating things like "It's best to TP in CHR, DEX, and STR gear because they're also used in WS mods" because they didn't like to gear swap. They discounted haste a good deal. People stated that it was best not to fulltime said gear because it would hurt your overall performance. This led to a whole stubborn argument about how hitting the haste cap isn't all that awesome and you shouldn't gear swap because you blink and don't get cures (Which is an annoying argument for me in particular... haven't we pushed the <stal> or <stpt> point enough? Is it so hard!? x_X) and so on and so forth. It's posters like this that get the brunt of ire from those of us who can't take the (for lack of better words, and I apologize) stupid that's being slammed at us time and again.

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Not only that, but her very first post in that thread was effectively insulting everyone that acknowledges haste as a valuable stat, by calling them (us) haste whores.

Bleh, found the thread and the post:

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

I can't believe one of you posted a guide which spawned this entire pointless discussion about the specifics over haste. Maybe I'll just stick to not being a haste whore....

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Here is the thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...e-misinformed.

When you make a post like that in a thread which is meant to be informative (and it was, up until that point), adding absolutely nothing of value but indirectly saying "u r dumb lolololol" - you basically reap what you sow.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

As an Addendum, It feels like when someones reported, The person who deletes/Edits it doesn't even read the post.

I've seen some very well-thought-out nicely worded rebuttals to bad ideas deleted/modded simply because the person they were discussing with Abused the "Report" button.

Feels kinda like "oh he's got 4 reports, Better just delete it and send him an Email telling him to stop, Who needs to read if its a legit report?"

I don't say this is true for everything, But it feels like it after reading some things that have been reported/deleted...

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I agree with you on this point, Karby. I've seen a number of posts just go completely poof when they've contained relevant information. In the past mods have taken the time to edit posts because they went against the forum guidelines, and that's reasonable. But I haven't seen many edits lately; most of the time they're just up and deleted. That does bother me. =\

I wrote this last night, but decided to scrap it; however, it has become relevant to the discussion:

One of the biggest lessons BG has learned when it comes to infighting is 1) Update ideas 2) Factual information. The first is very discernible following forum changes. We previously separated Advanced and Standard. Advanced contained news information and "important" discussion. Standard was pretty much what we now call "Randomest Question Thread" (Better know a thread). Since standard kept producing better results as far as testing went, they decided to merge both forums. However, that did not end major arguments. It was not until we separated news information from advanced-standard that we saw a noticeable decline in major arguments. The ones that did remain were primarily fights over game data (Formulas and such), in-game rivalries displaced onto the forums, and moral issues (Windower/Jumping to WoE Fights/Other stuff). If we were to rearrange these, you'll see that the order of "resolvability" is as follows:

1. Game data
2. News information (Update ideas)
3. In-game rivalries
4. Moral issues

The last three have the most in common. Particularly, because they have no, or every feeble, objective criterion for evaluation. Without this objective criterion, you cannot end these debates. This is what you call politics. I know Japan has primarily been locked down by the LDP and Keiretsu + Gov = Mucho good times, so SE doesn't witness this, but politics has no end precisely because what constitutes the end is not objectively defined. News information is the least "non-objective" of these because there is a general progression towards wanting to improve the class and balance. Nevertheless, the level of balance (And whether it even exists) and mechanism of balance leave room for discontent. Game data has a very objective criterion: To learn the mechanics of the game. Assuming this isn't shifting every hour (i.e. a very reasonable assumption for those who are incapable of distinguishing assumption from its negative connotation), we have a general sense of what we want to do. We want to predict numbers before they occur in the game. Hence, debates are resolved via accuracy. At the same time, that is not always the case, but it is not because there is no objective criteria, it is because of the poster themselves. The next step is to ask: How do I discern the individual deviating from this objective criterion and fueling a pointless argument? That's going to be specific to the issue and unfortunately, that means you either need to hope all participants are "rational" (Doesn't actually exist, but it works for explaining it to you) or you need to be able to tell which posters are just flaunting posts. An example of the former is Rambus in the Elemental/Rational/Logic thread posted earlier. Despite Byrthnoth showing that Rambus's order of operations was incorrect, Rambus continued to spout absolute nonsense. This is not something that you can resolve via rule of the majority either. Most people don't know the mechanics and the report button becomes a "Vote for your favorite!" mechanic. It takes expertise to solve these issues.

In short, you'll need to lock or displace 3 and 4. Since you're looking for game ideas, you need to moderate 2 less than you have been. Modding the first takes expertise in the game or you should let the situation moderate itself.