So why do we have the worst Espells?

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Originally Posted by Vicious

2/10, bad troll is bad =(

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I would say so, and you looked like an absolute moron to boot when it comes to RDM, and the mechanics of the game. (you still think SCH can out Stun RDM?)

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

(you still think SCH can out Stun RDM?)

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SCH actually can stun better than RDM, RDM's best way to stun is via Chainspell, which is limited to 60 seconds of stunning 1 time during an event. SCH however with the correct gear can get Stun down to a small 3~4 second recast during Embrava, which for now means about 4 minutes of very fast stuns with more accuracy than RDM, and another 8 minutes which you can use another 10 very fast stuns, this is thanks to Alacrity, and during Tabula Rasa, Focalization. SCH ends up being better for stuns for this reason, however after the Embrava nerf is done, or any areas in which is has already been implemented, I would say RDM and SCH are about the same, RDM has alot more use than SCH for stun outside of 2hours, but during 2hours SCH will win.

Thats so far as I know at least, if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

Yes, Enspell II doesn't need fixing, what's the point? As I've stated and proven, they have their niche. Why take away a spell when they could just as easily give us a third tier that does something different? Seriously, guys, think before typing.

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Sorry to have been off topic, this is actually on topic though. They can not give us a third tier to a spell which we never got a second tier to. En-IIs are not Enspells to me, show me another tier II spell in the game that removes something from the spell in a way that would make it worse than the tier I in any situation, except by MP cost.

Cures, Curagas, Raises, Holy, Dia, Banish, Diaga, Banishga, Protect, Shell, Slow, Paralyze, Cura, Phalanx, Regen, Protectra, Shellra, Reraise, Fire, Blizzard, Aero, Stone, Thunder, Water, Firaga, Blizzaga, Aeroga, Stonega, Thundaga, Waterga, Flare, Freeze, Tornado, Quake, Burst, Flood, Gravity, Poison, Bio, Drain, Aspir, Sleep, Blind, Warp, and Sleepga.

That is a list of every single spell in the game with at least 2 tiers, that fall into the White or Black magic categories. Not one of those spell types has any downfall or anything lost from the first tier upon upgrading to the second. The one spell type I excluded, is Enspells, and as I stated before, I don't think there is a second tier. Despite what you say, the second tier did lose something, it lost compatibility. With En-Is you can run around with any subjob, any gear, and you will get the full effects from the spells. With En-IIs, if you are dual wielding, or have any double or triple attack, you are not getting extra damage on those other hits. There are more things to it than simply this, but this is a big part, something we lost going from I, to II.

Tell me a spell I forgot, something I missed, where when going from the first tier to the second, we lost something, if you cant, then stop acting like this is ok, realize that the spells should be changed, and fixed. En-IIs should always be more powerful than the originals, that is how a second tier is meant to be, look at the elemental nukes, or the cures, you cant make a Cure I more powerful than a cure II, or a Fire I do more damage than a Fire II, because the II tier is meant to be stronger, and thats how our Enspells should be, our IIs should always be stronger, thats why we learn them at a later level, thats why they cost more MP, thats why they are called II spells.

So, arguments for tier 2 are as follows:

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Pros

-Superior damage when single-wielding a single hit weapon with a moderate amount of Double Attack

-Allows for application of Enspells in combination with Samba effects

Cons

-Inferior with multi-hit weapons, Dual Wield, larger amounts of multi-hit traits (combinations of Temper, Double/Triple Attack, whether form subjobs or gear)

-Damage formula calculates on strike rather than on cast, demanding perpetual equipment of Enhancing skill (potentially at the cost of Haste or Acc), for maximum potential

-"First hit only" clause reduces potential, should the first hit miss for any reason

-Negligible elemental defense reduction with only a few seconds' duration

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... Well, um, at least tier 2s... play well with Sambas? That's something... I guess.

Srsly though, I can respect niche: WAR occupies a niche, BRD occupies a niche, Firaga occupies a niche... but this is just ridiculous. The multi-hit thing, the elemental defense thing, I can just barely forgive those. But there was no call for it to use a damage formula from 2003 that was long since improved; that was a bloody deal-breaker.

Who can really justify a tier 2 spell having even less use and inferior formula to a tier 1?

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

Also,
Hi Carth havent seen you around the internets for some time, hope all is well!.

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That's probably because you don't know my new screenname on Alla. It's HeroMystic.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

-So, if you're fighting a target that is, for whatever reason, taking zero damage from your melee swings, but is still taking damage from your Enspell II, it's laughable to remove attack and double attack gear (ergo, not haste gear) and replace it with Enhancing skill? How much damage is attack and double attack adding when you're hitting for zero? Not sure if serious!

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How cute. This isn't what you said. You said:

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When the target takes little to no physical damage and/or increased magical damage?

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Little physical damage is still damage. You are still gaining TP. You can still use Requiescat.

And fun fact, even if the mob was taking 0 damage, you'd still be wrong. Enspell I and /NIN puts out a stronger damage output than the lolceremonialdagger method.

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-I never dismissed Requiescat; I simply acknowledge the reality of having 15 points to allocate between 14 different merit WS. You can't seriously expect somebody to 5/5 Requiescat for these, as you yourself put it, "highly situational -PDT mobs" when they might have MNK, THF, DNC, DRK, BST, DRG, SAM and/or COR leveled. As for nuking in those situations, that is also, as they say, situational; your MP may be better spent elsewhere, or casting may be less than feasible due to the longer casting time.

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Translation: My argument is failing, and therefore I must place arbitrary constraints to my point in order to make myself look smart.

Complaining that you have a bunch of jobs doesn't mean anything. Merits points are easy to get in this game. Even 1 merit on Requiescat is a large gain to speed up that kill. If you choose to ignore it, that's your choice, but it doesn't change the fact that Requiescat is a powerful boon on a mob like that and you'd be an idiot to ignore that.

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-My terrible argument is ripped from 2005? Last time I checked, RDM got booted from any and all parties in 2005 if they drew their sword past level 20. My argument is encouraging meleeing. Again, not sure if serious?

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It must be nice using that imagination of yours considering I was a melee RDM in 2005.

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This was also the correct way to Ceremonial Dagger things to death before the level cap increase kinda killed that strategy.

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If Killing Ifrit wasn't pruned, I'd tell you to go there and do a search on Ceremonial Dagger and get all the posts on how RDM should use Ceremonial Dagger on things so they wouldn't TP feed on mobs they did shit damage on. Same thesis, different situation.

But I'm sure you're gonna put an arbitrary rule to make your argument look better such as "you're gonna need all your MP to survive" or "You should be /WHM".

-I never said you shouldn't be using Requiescat if you have it; all I've said and continue to say is that in situations where physical damage stats aren't doing anything for you, there's no reason to not swap to Enhancing skill gear that will increase your damage. These situations are not mutually exclusive.

-If you're CDaggering something to death, you are wearing a Genbu's Shield regardless of /NIN, not dual-wielding.

-You're complaining that I'm adding all these caveats to my argument when they were already there from the very beginning. Besides, you make it sound like I'm just inventing this shit... and I assure you, it's all from experience, not thought-experiments.

-...ok, again, you were a melee RDM in 2005, cool. Not sure what that has to do with anything; I'm sure you got plenty of shit for it, whether justified or not. That does not change the fact that RDM melee is generally more acceptable today than it was before, mostly because it's in a much better place now than it was, and the metagame pretty much demands it.

-You profess to be a career RDM, yet have never heard of any solos that would require /WHM? I'm trying really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but this kind of ignorance makes it pretty hard.

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Originally Posted by Sunrider

Srsly though, I can respect niche: WAR occupies a niche, BRD occupies a niche, Firaga occupies a niche... but this is just ridiculous. The multi-hit thing, the elemental defense thing, I can just barely forgive those. But there was no call for it to use a damage formula from 2003 that was long since improved; that was a bloody deal-breaker.

Who can really justify a tier 2 spell having even less use and inferior formula to a tier 1?

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As I quite clearly showed in an earlier post, you need 1.73 attacks per round for Enspell I damage to match Enspell II damage when single-wielding. The only way this is possible is to use an OA2~4 weapon in Abyssea with the proper atmas; regardless of why one would be meleeing on RDM in Abyssea in the first place, you would be sacrificing much more physical damage by using such a terrible weapon for the sake of your argument, and would do much less damage overall.

Ergo, Enspell II is always superior when single-wielding in any remotely realistic, intelligent scenario. When they give Dual-Wield to RDM natively, you can start bitching how terrible they are; until then, math insists that you just stop.

And for all the complaints about the damage formula... you guys do realize that it's the difference between 26(52) and 30 damage with capped/merited skill, right? I mean, I don't disagree that the whole thing is silly, but it's not like it's 15 or 20 damage per swing.

This whole thing just boils down to a bunch of RDM/NINs who think the answer to all of RDM's woes is to increase their damage potential with a very particular subjob and hope that SE forgets about all the powerful magic they can cast on a moment's notice. You are never going to get what you want, because it would horribly unbalanced, you don't have to be Tanaka to see that; but you do have to be delusional to ignore it.

/whm for solo?, Enspell 2's are fine as they are? Sch a better stunner?
I see some one has finally found the RDM only confused spell.

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Originally Posted by tyrantsyn

Sch a better stunner?

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As I said at the top of the page, this one is legitimately correct, if you want proof, ask any successful legion group which they take for stuns, a RDM, or a SCH.

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-You profess to be a career RDM, yet have never heard of any solos that would require /WHM? I'm trying really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but this kind of ignorance makes it pretty hard.

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Name one solo where /WHM trumps /SCH. Just one.

On topic however.

SE should remove the MEVA boost and change it to an Elemental Debuff (Frost Drown Rasp Choke Burn Shock.) Damage doesn't matter, RDM is not asked to come for damage (its not asked for at all but w/e) it is asked to provide utility. Being able to reduce mobs stats directly is a large buff to all the jobs targeting the mob. Instead of providing a silly -10 to MEVA it should be offering a -25 To Stats.

How did I get at the awesome magic 25 number. It takes that many hits to cap your Damage with EN2's so for each consecutive hit you reduce mob stat by 1, until cap where it remains until the ability is recast.

This provides the following.
-STR = A reduction in damage through the mobs fSTR calculation.
-VIT = An increase in damage taken based on players fSTR calculation.
-INT = An increase in Elemental Damage and Black Magic MACC based on DMG and MACC calculations
-MND = An increase to Divine Damage and White Magic MACC based on DMG and MACC calculations
- AGI = An reduction in Evasion, and an increase to Critical hit rate.
- DEX = A reduction in Accuracy and Critical hit rate

Depending on the enspell selected Players will notice more damage/macc and a slew of other side net benefits from reduction to Stats. Making RDM have a buff via debuffing.

All told these would act like the following.

BOOST spells, Attack +, ACC+, MACC+, EVA+, CRIT RATE+, MOB Crit rate -, Defense+.

While they can not all be on at the same time multiple RDM's could provide 1 or more of these buffs. But they also jive nicely with our current line of specific skill debuffs, DIA(ATK+), BIO(DEF+), Gravity(ACC+), Blind(EVA+),

and it supports RDM melee, as enspells need to be poked into mobs.

Utility > Damage for RDM returning to group play.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

As I said at the top of the page, this one is legitimately correct, if you want proof, ask any successful legion group which they take for stuns, a RDM, or a SCH.

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No you are right, but I didn't want someone with a brain to answer, I wanted Vicious to answer because he/she seemed pretty adamant it was a MACC issue, not an issue with SCH just being able to cast the spell a shit ton more.

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Ergo, Enspell II is always superior when single-wielding in any remotely realistic, intelligent scenario. When they give Dual-Wield to RDM natively, you can start bitching how terrible they are; until then, math insists that you just stop.

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What math your terrible math that concluded 80 MACC isn't worth 38% Land rate?

The only reason to use EN2 over EN1 is to get Haste Samba, that is it, the rest of the time they are statistically even damage wise, unless on fodder exp mobs. Which means they are shit and need adjusting to be useful.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

Because casting status cures with /SCH requires Addendum: White, which requires 2 JAs and 2 seconds to activate. That 2 seconds can easily get you killed, and lord help you if you get paralyzed and lose any of those JAs to it.

You are such an adorable little tryhard <3

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Cure 1-4 spells do not require Addendum: White. However, Light Arts will optimize those spells by reducing the casting cost and recast by a small amount. You are not required to have Light Arts up or have Addendum: White active to cast cure.

As for enfeebles, subbing /DNC will address most of them with Healing Waltz.

Either way, /WHM is not critical - it is just a player preference.

Edit: Ultimately though, how does this effect Enspells in general? I understand we live in "nano-time" while we play these games where every second counts but are we seriously willing to quibble over two seconds?

Here you go:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Cogtooth_Skagnogg

Requires you to Erase Bind more than once every 2 minutes, and the 30% casting time penalty to nukes from full-timing Addendum: White will get you killed in short order.

What else can I teach you guys today?

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Originally Posted by Vicious

Requires you to Erase Bind more than once every 2 minutes, and the 30% casting time penalty to nukes from full-timing Addendum: White will get you killed in short order.

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This mob doesn't have knockback so unless you want to kite it why would you care about bind during melee? And if you kite it, you aren't engaged with it anyway...

Edit: Unless you meant the weight effect he puts on you?

Edit2: Even then he doesn't use melee attacks. All his attacks are magic based dmg or enfeebles. So evasion doesn't help you. The only real issue I see is silence and blind. You can't use magic to remove silence from yourself. Eye Drops aren't a bad thing either.

Edit3: corrected some spelling

If you try to straight tank it, you die; you have to kite it to stand a chance, hence why you need Erase. Understand, it doesn't melee, it just spams TP moves back to back to back. Meleeing was never a stipulation in this whole RDM/WHM solo tangent, I'll remind you!

The only reason meleeing came into is when i stated that, if full-timing Addendum: White in a solo melee situation for the express purpose of access to status cures, I would rather just /WHM for Flash, which is entirely logical for this entirely hypothetical and illogical situation.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

What else can I teach you guys today?

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How that NM is at all relevant and worth the time and effort to go out of the way to kill anyways.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

Understand, it doesn't melee

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I would rather just /WHM for Flash.

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Because flash is relevant when kiting something that doesn't melee.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

entirely hypothetical and illogical situation.

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Oh look, its the basis of just about everything you have posted in this thread.

-It is still somewhat relevant, whether you believe so or not! Regardless, 'relevance' was never a stipulation, so /shrug.

-As I've made abundantly clear, that NM is a real application, whereas the argument involving Flash was purely hypothetical response to a purely hypothetical situation. =/

-That's funny, as I wasn't the one who posited the situation in question! I suppose that's what I get for feeding trolls, though.

-If single-wielding with Enspell II while /WHM or /SCH as the sole support member of my party while lowmanning Salvage, etc is to be considered hypothetical and situational, I give up on the lot of you.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

-It is still somewhat relevant, actually!

-As I've made abundantly clear, that NM is a real application, whereas the argument involving Flash was purely hypothetical response to a purely hypothetical situation. =/

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I disagree on both parts. I looked at the NM to be sure, see nothing of relevance, relating to it or the BCNM related to the item it drops. The only important item of any sort would be the Ring, which has very limited use. As for the other part, if this was completely hypothetical you would not be arguing WHM is a good sub. But ok, people were not specific enough, show a relevant mob in which /SCH would not beat /WHM.

If you're going to start arguing relevance, then, I posit that all RDM solos at this stage in the game are equally irrelevant, as anything that drops anything of 'relevance' is extraordinarily inefficient to kill without the necessary procs and/or Treasure Hunter (a la Abyssea, Voidwatch, Dynamis, Salvage), downright impossible for RDM to solo in the first place (NNI, Legion), or was already feasible to solo at 75 when yonder Warmachine was, as you say, "relevant" (Limbus, Salvage, Sky, whatever).

Please try ever so harder!

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Originally Posted by Vicious

-If single-wielding with Enspell II while /WHM or /SCH as the sole support member of my party while lowmanning Salvage, etc is to be considered hypothetical and situational, I give up on the lot of you.

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If you are /WHM or /SCH you are not on the front lines, you are a back line job at that time and you are not fighting with the other melee jobs. You give up on us, we don't care, you keep talking about a line of spells we know are worthless, and we keep trying to explain to you what the problem is, which you ignore...

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If you are /WHM or /SCH you are not on the front lines, you are a back line job at that time and you are not fighting with the other melee jobs.

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/mind blown

So, it's either frontline /NIN dual-wield I ain't casting shit, or backline I'm using staves and maging it up, eh?

Why are you playing Red Mage????

I tried to make it flash in 3-D, but I couldn't figure out how.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

If you're going to start arguing relevance, then, I posit that all RDM solos at this stage in the game are equally irrelevant, as anything that drops anything of 'relevance' is extraordinarily inefficient to kill without the necessary procs and/or Treasure Hunter (a la Abyssea, Voidwatch, Dynamis, Salvage), downright impossible for RDM to solo in the first place (NNI, Legion), or was already feasible to solo at 75 when yonder Warmachine was, as you say, "relevant" (Limbus, Salvage, Sky, whatever).

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I DD in VW as RDM/NIN as well as many Emp/Relic WAR/SAM/DRK/MNKs do on my server, NNI I have DDed in before and done quite well, Legion I do not do, nor would I do with RDM. Limbus gear is needed for Neo-Limbus gear, and the coins are needed for Neo-Limbus as well, thus, relevant content. Salvage is needed for Alexandrites, new Salvage gear, and some of its gear holds up decently, for instance until this most recent update, Morrigan's feet were the best KoR feet in the game for RDM still. Sky gear can be augmented, Zenith Crown is a very useful Enhancing Magic piece for both RDM and WHM, Zenith Pumps are the best cure feet in the game outside of Iaso if you require cure potency in that slot, and second best for cure cast time.

I need not try harder, I need only think and share my RDM experience, please do tell how that NM you showed is similar to these other events you listed, which are in fact, still useful.

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I DD in VW as RDM/NIN as well as many Emp/Relic WAR/SAM/DRK/MNKs do on my server

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If you don't know what's wrong with this statement...

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NNI I have DDed in before and done quite well

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I got carried away with this one I'll admit, RDM would do okay against the fodder mobs in there; you'd be a lot less useful vs. the floorx20 bosses though. I'd still take virtually anything over a RDM in there.

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Limbus gear is needed for Neo-Limbus gear, and the coins are needed for Neo-Limbus as well, thus, relevant content. Salvage is needed for Alexandrites, new Salvage gear, and some of its gear holds up decently, for instance until this most recent update, Morrigan's feet were the best KoR feet in the game for RDM still. Sky gear can be augmented, Zenith Crown is a very useful Enhancing Magic piece for both RDM and WHM, Zenith Pumps are the best cure feet in the game outside of Iaso if you require cure potency in that slot, and second best for cure cast time.

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As I said, this was all doable and/or relevant (some things for different reasons, which I don't see mattering for the comparison) at 75, as was the Warmachine, so it does not help your case.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

/mind blown

So, it's either frontline /NIN dual-wield I ain't casting shit, or backline I'm using staves and maging it up, eh?

Why are you playing Red Mage????

I tried to make it flash in 3-D, but I couldn't figure out how.

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Because while I am on the front lines using my dual swords, I am also assisting through the use of magic, such as Cure spells, to heal my party. Low maning Salvage, an example you gave, I do that with RDM/NIN and THF/DNC, RDM for healing, DDing, and tanking everything that hits low numbers, while the THF is for TH, EVA tanking anything that hits hard enough to hurt me for more than 100 through Phalanx, and for the occasional erase from /DNC.

I play RDM because I enjoy the job, I made both Excalibur and Almace as my only Relic and Emp so far, so you can tell just a bit how devoted I am to the job, and how much time I invest in it by compare to others. I understand the job, and I understand that in any case my RDM would be subbing a mage subjob, I am not expected to be, nor should be, on the front lines, in any case where I am fighting on the front lines, I am using next to nothing but cures and possibly a few nukes or enfeebles, depending on the mob and location.

I don't doubt that you're devoted to RDM for whatever reason, and that's totally cool. It is, however, not a pass for the poor decisions you make regarding the job.

Here's some tips:

If you are dealing comparable damage to the Ragnarok DRKS and Ukon WARs in your VW alliance, the following statements are true:

-You have good gear, are not retarded, and are getting BRD/COR buffs.
-Aforementioned melee are either dead, retarded, or proccing. If it's a pickup alliance, expect a healthy mix of the first two with a smattering of the third if you're lucky.
-You are not fighting anything remotely threatening and/or hard to damage, such as Ig-Alima, Botulus, Kalasutrax, Morta, Bismarck, PWarden.

Your subjob does not dictate your role in the party. If I plan on meleeing in a party with two other 1H DDs, such as a MNK and a THF, we will deal more damage if I /SCH and Accession Enspells onto them than if I used /NIN for DW3. Granted, this assumes I am smart enough to cast an Enspell II, preferably of the element that will assist the one I just Accessioned if possible for our targets. This also gives the party a highly reliable source of status cures when necessary, faster casting times for more melee swings, increased MP sustainability (granted, this rarely is an issue these days, but meh), as well as more situationally useful uses for Accession, such as Barspells and Stoneskin.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

If you don't know what's wrong with this statement...

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That many DDs on my server are terrible or poorly geared? I agree, it would seem that way, at the same time, my RDM does often come out as one of the top 3 DDs, and Dia III helps.

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I got carried away with this one I'll admit, RDM would do okay against the fodder mobs in there; you'd be a lot less useful vs. the floorx20 bosses though. I'd still take virtually anything over a RDM in there.

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Dia III helps with defense, helping kill speed on bosses, is it the most amazing job ever? No, but it does a good job in the event never the less.

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As I said, this was all doable and/or relevant (some things for different reasons, which I don't see mattering for the comparison) at 75, as was the Warmachine, so it does not help your case.

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See, here is the difference, the Warmachine has no relevance now, all of the others, do. Some are required for new events that were made for level 99s even, once they make lv99 versions of those BCNMs which require the gear from the originals, or the originals drop something players use often like AC, Alex, or ABCs, then yes, you will be correct in your comparison.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

I don't doubt that you're devoted to RDM for whatever reason, and that's totally cool. It is, however, not a pass for the poor decisions you make regarding the job.

Here's some tips:

If you are dealing comparable damage to the Ragnarok DRKS and Ukon WARs in your VW alliance, the following statements are true:

-You have good gear, are not retarded, and are getting BRD/COR buffs.

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Yes, I have a near perfect RDM TP build, some of the more high end WS gear for all 3 of my primary WSs, and a 500 Enhancing Magic set which puts my buffs at their max potency. Buffs in VW should be obvious if your in a DD party, if your not in a DD party, its not even really worth drawing your weapons.

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-Aforementioned melee are either dead, retarded, or proccing. If it's a pickup alliance, expect a healthy mix of the first two with a smattering of the third if you're lucky.

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Were they any of the above, it would be fairly pointless to make a statement of it.

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-You are not fighting anything remotely threatening and/or hard to damage, such as Ig-Alima, Botulus, Kalasutrax, Morta, Bismarck, PWarden.

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RDM has to low of accuracy in a good TP build to hit any of those 6 NMs, I am not stupid enough to fight them. The majority of the mobs I DD on RDM against are the commonly shouted for NMs, Kaggen, Akvan, Pil, Qilin, Aello, and Uptala. The only 2 of the 6 you listed I have fought as RDM are Kala and Morta, Morta my accuracy was so terrible I changed to DRK as soon as the fight ended.

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Your subjob does not dictate your role in the party. If I plan on meleeing in a party with two other 1H DDs, such as a MNK and a THF, we will deal more damage if I /SCH and Accession Enspells onto them than if I used /NIN for DW3. This also gives the party a highly reliable source of status cures when necessary.

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Question is more or less in my opinion, how much is your RDM doing with /NIN vs how much extra are your DDs doing with En-Is. I notice my extra damage from being useful is more than their extra 30 per swing tends to be. As for the -na spells, if I am that worried about them I more often than not do not want to be in a close range to mobs which may or may not kill me depending on what event you are suggesting this would take place in. The only event I can think of which is done with only about 3 people is Neo-Salvage, which I have not done, so I can not be sure.

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See, here is the difference, the Warmachine has no relevance now, all of the others, do. Some are required for new events that were made for level 99s even, once they make lv99 versions of those BCNMs which require the gear from the originals, or the originals drop something players use often like AC, Alex, or ABCs, then yes, you will be correct in your comparison.

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For the record, Fenian Ring is fun for PLD and kinda essential for the serious endgame WHM.

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Question is more or less in my opinion, how much is your RDM doing with /NIN vs how much extra are your DDs doing with En-Is. I notice my extra damage from being useful is more than their extra 30 per swing tends to be. As for the -na spells, if I am that worried about them I more often than not do not want to be in a close range to mobs which may or may not kill me depending on what event you are suggesting this would take place in. The only event I can think of which is done with only about 3 people is Neo-Salvage, which I have not done, so I can not be sure.

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I am not going to sit here and give myself a migraine attempting to math it out; I've parsed several times both ways, and /SCH wins handily for total party damage output; THF and MNK hit way more times per round than a RDM could ever hope to, as does NIN. As for the range involved, sure, sometimes you hang back for a NM here and there; the point is that you have that flexibility. Salvage is pretty much the perfect example of this and one of the events where a good jack-of-all-trades RDM really shines; it's absolutely RDM's best event at this point in the game.

I would argue that Meebles is just as good in its lower stages, the tier 5 and final bosses are not meant for RDM to be of any use, then again Gallu are over powered in my opinion anyways, and would not go near them outside of Perfect Defense or Fana drink. And as I said, the ring is actually notable, however I would not say its terribly needed, it helps against undead, 1 category of mob, as for PLD using it, its ok, but who really builds a shield bash set, and would value 50 damage to be worth that effort? Then again, I built a pop for the Stone Mufflers, so I'm not one to talk.

Meebles, definitely! I've only gone a few times but definitely seems RDM friendly.

Ring does seem like a lot of effort for a small reward but hey, it's an excuse to go dick around in old zones, and I'm always looking for those... in fact, I think I just found my next side project.

Well I hope the thread gets back on track, sorry for all the derailment, I'm going to sleep. As I said in my last on-topic post, I do not think of En-IIs as a second tier to Enspells, as they do not follow the same rules as En-Is do while making them stronger, they are entirely unique spells. I think they should be changed to be the same as En-Is but with added features/upgrades, or they should be changed in name to something else, to display the fact they are not the same thing. The spell that costs more MP often seems to be the lesser of the two in peoples minds, and in any situation you are gearing to do your most damage, its correct, I believe the fact that the second tier is ever weaker, is a flaw, and one which should be corrected soon. We have had this for years, I am not saying to take the advantages away from the En-IIs, but rather give them all of the advantages of the En-Is, so that they can truly be better, and feel like a real second tier.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

Meleeing was never a stipulation in this whole RDM/WHM solo tangent, I'll remind you!

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I feel like there is though because the entire overarching POINT of this discussion is enspell... so if you're not meleeing it, it's not a valid argument.

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

I feel like there is though because the entire overarching POINT of this discussion is enspell... so if you're not meleeing it, it's not a valid argument.

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Hence, "tangent."

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Originally Posted by Vicious

Now, let's solve for Enspell II magic accuracy to equal Enspell I damage:

Enspell II damage : 14,508 damage

Solve for x = magic accuracy

(305*52x)+[305*26(1-x)] = 12,221
15860x + [7930(1-x)] = 12,221
x= .54

Given that 1/4 resists and lower are going to drive the results slightly lower, I'm comfortable bumping this result up a few notches to 56%

Highest magic accuracy possible on Enspell II for Enspell I to break even = ~56%

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This was calculated improperly.

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Enspell I damage : 12,534 damage
Enspell I damage at capped magic accuracy (95%) : 12,221 damage
Total Enspell II damage at 100% acc: 15561

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To match Enspell I damage, average damage per Enspell II strike would have to be reduced by a scale of (12221/15561) = 78.54%

Average percent return for a given magic hit rate is:

x + (1-x)*x/2 + (1-x)^2/4

which simplifies to:

x + x/2 - x^2/2 + (1 - 2x + x^2)/4
x + x/2 - x^2/2 + 1/4 - x/2 + x^2/4
x + 1/4 - x^2/4
x - x^2/4 + 0.25


So, solve this for 78.54%, and we get 63.7% magic hit rate, or 63 accuracy below cap. With -80 accuracy from gear (or 72 if it's all skill, and thus subject to the 0.9 factor), that's a leeway of up to 17 magic accuracy where Enspell I's are capped, and Enspell II's have equal or lesser total damage.

Magic hit rate trends slightly downwards as magic accuracy drops. Given a constant magic accuracy difference between Enspell I and Enspell II, that means that as Enspell I's accuracy drops below capped, Enspell II's damage is dropping more quickly than Enspell I's, so the difference in accuracy needed for Enspell I to win decreases.

If, for example, Enspell I was at a 60% hit rate, Enspell II would fall behind at anything below a 35% magic hit rate, which is a difference of only -50 magic accuracy.


Rough overall estimate: If Enspell I's accuracy puts you less than 15 above the hit rate cap, or anywhere below the cap, Enspell I damage will beat Enspell II damage (assuming you can get 70-80 m.acc in gear when casting, and that DA rates match those used in the initial calculations).

Thanks for the more accurate numbers!

Actually, other parts of the math don't quite add up, either.

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26% Haste, 17% DA, 2% TA ; add Temper @ 500 skill for 37% DA, 2% TA, which gives you 1.37 attacks per round.

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2% TA and 37% DA gives 1.4026 attacks per round, before accuracy, and 1.33247 hits per round after accounting for accuracy (assuming capped). Not sure how you got 1.37.

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-Delay 224 weapon with 40% haste becomes 134, which works out to 2.3 seconds per attack round, which gives you about 305 attack rounds for the duration of either spell.

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2.23 seconds per attack round, actually (does not round to 2.3), which bumps the total rounds to 314.

Number of rounds needed to reach cap is not 26, but 26/0.95 = 27.4, since missed swings don't increase the damage value.

That leaves (314-27.4)*0.95 = 272 rounds that landed the first hit.

Enspell I Damage done: 314 * 1.33247 * 30 = 12,552
Enspell II Damage done: 39*26 + 52*272 = 15,158

Ratio: 82.81%

Updated calculations to allow for 1/8 resists. It changes very little at the high end.

If Enspell I has capped (95%) magic hit rate, it beats Enspell II at 67% magic hit rate, for a difference of 56 m.acc.

With a difference of 72 m.acc from gear (using 0.9 scaling), that means Enspell I beats Enspell II on mobs 6 or more levels above the player (barring any other resistances).



Bonus calculation with Chimeric Fleuret:

Hits per round: 2% TA and 41% DA = 1.36971
Total rounds: 321

Full damage rounds for Enspell II: (321-27.4)*0.95 = 279

Enspell I Damage done: 321 * 1.36971 * 37 = 16,268
Enspell II Damage done: 46*26 + 59*279 = 17,657

Ratio: 92.13%

If Enspell I has capped (95%) magic hit rate, it beats Enspell II at 81% magic hit rate, for a difference of 28 m.acc.

Enspell I beats Enspell II for mobs 2 or more levels above the player (assuming they have capped enhancing skill), and is mostly a wash on mobs 1 level above the player.



Note that the difference in damage from Enspell I with Chimeric Fleuret (3621 after adjusting for resists) amounts to about 5.16 DPS. The equivalent could be gained by going from a D51/d218 weapon to a D55/d218 weapon, or a D58/d224 weapon, or a D59/d230 weapon, so any Shikargar beats it. This was mainly to show the impact of +enspell damage gear on the choice of enspell tier.

Remembered Portus Collar after I had already done all of the calculations and didn't want to be caught leaving out DA gear that would favor Enspell I... seems I missed some changes I should've made. Thanks for the correction and the more accurate model.

One question though; your calculations are assuming that Enspell II accuracy is determined at proc, not at cast. Has this been tested that you're aware of?

I believe it was, but it's been quite a long time, and our testing today tends to be a lot more rigorous than in years past, so it probably wouldn't hurt to test it again.

If I have some free time this weekend I'll see what I can do.

One more thing; Magic Accuracy merits. If I'm not mistaken, those should increase Enspell II's lead to targets level 106 and below? I ask because anything higher than that and the question becomes rather moot.

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Originally Posted by Carth

We just explained this about ~3-6 posts ago.

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Other than the Excalibur argument; that's more of a flaw with how additional effects are calculated... not with the spell. Double Attack procs not allowing an Enspell proc is perfectly valid... but I was wondering what other logic was following or if that was about it.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

Hence, "tangent."

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Originally Posted by Vicious

What else can I teach you guys today?

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How to stay on topic and be relevant? How about that?

Apparently this topic has taken the time the time to Math out Enspell 1s vs 2s, but no one actually applied that to an actual feedback or any conclusions. Maybe that's the reason why we have the worst Enspells.