Pet th - Just hear me out

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Originally Posted by Nawesemo

Animated flourish is not consider a voke in that combo?

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Originally Posted by Nawesemo

lol, you know I know you know its not.

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LoL /sigh
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Animated_Flourish

just go away.

Its on the internet it must be true!!!! Have a dnc, and a war their thing, watch where the mob goes, annimated florish is annimated florish, provoke is provoke, if they were the same the would be well, the same, they are not, try again.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Camiie and Frank, nothing you've said about why BSTs should get more TH wouldn't apply to DNC. Should DNC not get more TH by those rationales?

WHY BST AND NOT EVERYBODY ELSE?

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The pet in question is a THF. Pets get the traits of the jobs they possess. At level 90, THF gets the TH3 trait. At level 90 Yuly, being a THF, should also get the TH3 trait along with I and II since it is automatically beyond the levels for those. A DNC is not a THF and does not get TH traits on its own. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

The pet in question is a THF. Pets get the traits of the jobs they possess. At level 90 THF gets the TH3 trait. At level 90 Yuly, being a THF, should also get the TH3 trait along with I and II. A DNC is not a THF. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

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Why just traits, why not spells? Why not job abilities? Why not combat skills and the associated weapons and weapon skills? Because pets are not players. Pets (as well as monsters) only have access to a subset of what's available to players. It's always been this way. Granted, it didn't manifest much in traits before, but that's just an arbitrary difference. Why traits but nothing else?

TH especially is an extremely powerful trait, more than most people give it credit for. TH2 over TH1 means you only have to kill two mobs instead of three, on average, to get your drop. Thus it saves you about 33% of your farming time (on single drops, unaffected by weakness staggers or anything other than TH). That is a huge difference. One that's worth subbing THF for, if you wanna reduce the amount of farming you want to do for a specific drop.

Oh, and here comes Arcon. The lead singer in the choir of bst haters. You are late, sir.

Beastmasters do not have jug pets that can cast spells. They can charm pets that cast spells, however, and sic will actually allow these pets to cast spells if they're not in melee range; a worm, for example.

Pets cannot equip weapons so they don't have access to weaponskills. They do, however, possess the job traits for their jobs.

And as far as pets not being players, well, they may not be controlled by a human directly, but they are considered characters, essentially players, hence the acronym NPC.

TH is powerful? Really? Can TH 1-shot a mob? Does TH provide the additional effect "death" per proc? I think not.

Get your head on straight before you post and stop trolling the bst forums.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Why just traits, why not spells? Why not job abilities? Why not combat skills and the associated weapons and weapon skills? Because pets are not players. Pets (as well as monsters) only have access to a subset of what's available to players. It's always been this way. Granted, it didn't manifest much in traits before, but that's just an arbitrary difference. Why traits but nothing else?

TH especially is an extremely powerful trait, more than most people give it credit for. TH2 over TH1 means you only have to kill two mobs instead of three, on average, to get your drop. Thus it saves you about 33% of your farming time (on single drops, unaffected by weakness staggers or anything other than TH). That is a huge difference. One that's worth subbing THF for, if you wanna reduce the amount of farming you want to do for a specific drop.

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There is a reason that you rarely ever see bsts (or any other job really) subbing thf. It offers no other benefit besides TH. Especially when soloing. The loss of kill speed and survival abilities from subbing thf almost completely (if not completely) negates the benefit of increased drops.

What's more, you still haven't explained how a TH3 pet is going to hurt some other job. I play thief all the time. At no point has anyone ever said "hey, can you swap to beast so we can get better drops?". If it takes bsts %33 less time to farm things, how is that any different from that guy switching to thief and how does that harm you either way?

The argument "This job can't have this ability because some other job has it" is broken logic in that there have always been jobs with the same / similar abilities since the release of this game. By that logic, pup (for example) would have to be completely removed from the game, as PUP and it's pet do almost nothing that isn't taken from another job.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

There is a reason that you rarely ever see bsts (or any other job really) subbing thf. It offers no other benefit besides TH. Especially when soloing. The loss of kill speed and survival abilities from subbing thf almost completely (if not completely) negates the benefit of increased drops.

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the hits just keep on coming!

This argument can apply to literally any subjob. When I play SAM, I can sub DNC to heal myself a bit but I lose some offensive capability from not subbing WAR. Does this mean SAM should get Berserk?

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What's more, you still haven't explained how a TH3 pet is going to hurt some other job. I play thief all the time. At no point has anyone ever said "hey, can you swap to beast so we can get better drops?". If it takes bsts %33 less time to farm things, how is that any different from that guy switching to thief and how does that harm you either way?

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It hurts the game, because a good game involves meaningful choices and meaningful choices involve giving something else up.

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The argument "This job can't have this ability because some other job has it" is broken logic in that there have always been jobs with the same / similar abilities since the release of this game. By that logic, pup (for example) would have to be completely removed from the game, as PUP and it's pet do almost nothing that isn't taken from another job.

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PUP can't do all these things at the same time. You use Soulsoother to get healing and sacrifice damage from Sharpshot, etc. Meaningful choices.

Maybe Courier Carrie could get TH3?

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Originally Posted by Camiie

The pet in question is a THF. Pets get the traits of the jobs they possess. At level 90, THF gets the TH3 trait. At level 90 Yuly, being a THF, should also get the TH3 trait along with I and II since it is automatically beyond the levels for those. A DNC is not a THF and does not get TH traits on its own. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

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The idea that a mobs job should dictate what traits it gets with no regard to how those traits might otherwise affect the game basically means you think WAR mobs should get Fencer back.

The everly elusive "balance" grasshopper, balance. It is bst only that can call yuly, and splitting the hair so to speak about its abilities not being unique to bst, is fail. It would be bst only w/ thf 3 and not have to sub /thf... And stilllll get to use /dnc, ... =unbalanced. When every other job (save blus weenie thf2, and, oooooo real thfs) has to sub thf to get. Your on the wanting end of this so we get why you don't get it. It can't, and shouldn't have happen(ed). It's as silly a thought as a blm wanting to have thf 3 attached to stone 2..... Think about it.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

Oh, and here comes Arcon. The lead singer in the choir of bst haters. You are late, sir.

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I didn't have anything to say that others didn't say before now. Despite what you think, I'm not on a crusade against BST. I just think not all ideas are good, and this one isn't. Same as your last few ideas. Not everyone's creativity is beneficial to the community.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

And as far as pets not being players, well, they may not be controlled by a human directly, but they are considered characters, essentially players, hence the acronym NPC.

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So "non-player character" is "essentially [a] player" in your book? In what universe does that make sense?

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Originally Posted by Malthar

TH is powerful? Really? Can TH 1-shot a mob? Does TH provide the additional effect "death" per proc? I think not.

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Movement speed also can't 1-shot a mob. Does that mean it's not powerful? Not everything powerful is related to damage. What do you consider more powerful, an ability which kills a mob instantly, but disables any drops or an ability that gimps your damage by half but gives you guaranteed drops?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

What's more, you still haven't explained how a TH3 pet is going to hurt some other job. I play thief all the time. At no point has anyone ever said "hey, can you swap to beast so we can get better drops?". If it takes bsts %33 less time to farm things, how is that any different from that guy switching to thief and how does that harm you either way?

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It's not harmful to anyone, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. It wouldn't hurt anyone if WHM got a 0 MP, no enmity, instant-cast Curaga X. It would actually benefit a lot of other people too. Although one could argue that at least this idea is still somehow related to what the job actually does, which can't be said for BST and TH.

I simply see no reason at all for this. It's not required from a game-play perspective, nor does it make sense from a role-playing point of view. And most of all, for all this arguing it's still one of the minor issues BST should have with the job at this point (some of which were pointed out before), so complaining about it while SE basically already shot it down just seems completely pointless and arbitrary.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Why just traits, why not spells? Why not job abilities? Why not combat skills and the associated weapons and weapon skills? Because pets are not players. Pets (as well as monsters) only have access to a subset of what's available to players. It's always been this way. Granted, it didn't manifest much in traits before, but that's just an arbitrary difference. Why traits but nothing else?

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Because they had to draw a line somewhere? Is that the answer you're looking for? I guess they figured it was reasonable for a pet to be able to be able to double/triple attack, have a high rate of critical hits, or be drawn to shiny things (Treasure Hunter) while it would be unreasonable for a rabbit to have a Great Katana strapped to its head. Not to mention, samurai rabbits have already been done.

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TH especially is an extremely powerful trait, more than most people give it credit for. TH2 over TH1 means you only have to kill two mobs instead of three, on average, to get your drop. Thus it saves you about 33% of your farming time (on single drops, unaffected by weakness staggers or anything other than TH). That is a huge difference. One that's worth subbing THF for, if you wanna reduce the amount of farming you want to do for a specific drop.

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Double Attack, Triple Attack, Evasion Bonus, Magic Defense Bonus, etc. are powerful as well. Should BST pets have any traits at all? After all, every trait they could have is something players have access to naturally or have to sub for. Why is this only a problem when it's a THF trait? Most pets are WAR. Should WARs (including myself) be offended and rage against the BSTs? What makes THFs so special that their job traits are off limits while everyone else is fair game?

Seriously the BST hate is a little much. It's fine if people dislike BST, but maybe you should go to a different forum. It's unbelievable that BST is good at 1 and only 1 thing and people light their hair on fire. You aren't willing to invite bst to like any event, and then you're going to get mad that they solo things? #facepalm

How about the devs weighing in here? Note, the original message is about giving DipperYuley the ability to proc higher TH, not giving DipperYuley TH3. I have re-posted the original message here for reference.

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Ok, so SE gimped our pet TH down to one and reneged on the mention of releasing pet th gear. So how about this, keep th1 on both Yuley and Falcorr, but allow Yuley to proc th to higher levels with regular melee attacks. Falcorr got an attack boost and Yuley got nothing for having th removed. Yuley is a weaker pet than Falcorr and can barely hold hate from the master. Give Yuley the ability to proc th to higher levels.

If you like this idea, hit like.

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I have bst leveled, I enjoy it, I see its usefulness in Dynamis. 200+ coins is np.... So why are people up in arms, pretending that the loss of TH3 has gimped their ability to solo? Srsly? are you that spoiled and entitled? You still get more than pretty much any other job by going on bst, even with silly little TH1.

Other people should rage more, like the jobs that have to /dnc to survive solo in dynamis, let alone to proc, giving up any and all TH unless they can a) wear, and b) have the TH sash. Bst is supposed to be a solo job, it does wonderfully in that regard. This sounds like a crap ton of q.q about something that is nearly irrelevant. Bst gets to /dnc to live (and mostly to proc JA) and have TH for drops... I really, really can't wrap my head around anyone who IS a bst, being mad about any of this. We got TH3 on a pet, and it was good. It was so good it got nerfed. That happens alot to many jobs.

Do we complain about the things that actually need fixed on bst? Nope! Let's complain about TH first..... really.

Does everyone who posts in this thread against Beastmaster somehow get to spend more than the maximum of 2 hours in Dynamis? Because from the sounds of it, you all live there. BST is regularly used for more than just Dynamis, soloing empyrean weapons for one. RDM can solo most old content as well and I guess they get no love from anyone either, I guess everyone just hates to see someone else able to do better with elss on their part.

Talking about being able to build TH on random NMs, for empyrean or anything else.... Guess what! same arguement. I solo'd almost all my items for 85 kannagi on my ninja... I didn't get any TH. Bst still gets TH1, still better than other jobs that solo. I, personally, used dynamis as an example because its all the same and I don't feel like listing every solo'able event in the game, because there are way too many. Bst can solo and have TH. And to bring up abyssea is silly because you choose yout atma then stand there. It takes zero skill to solo 90%, if not more, of abyssea content on bst.

Edit: for the incomplete ending. zero skill to solo 90% of abyssea allows you to stand there safely and use /thf for TH2, making the TH arguement moot and allowing you to use other pets to tank as they do so more efficiently. on rare mobs that you can do fine with 2 atma, you can even wear Dread for TH3... Bst has it better than they'll admit.

Why do you want people to fight even more trivial fights? Killing the same insignificant enemies even more due to lower drop rates is only a trial of patience, not of skill. Limited access to TH is of benefit to nobody, so I can not fathom why anybody wants any job to have reduced access to it. THF already had higher TH, but that aside, that's a stupid niche to have, it needs something better than "less agonizing grind."

Same reason I don't want healing magic on heavy melee jobs. I don't want elemental nukes on paladin. There are limits through lore, history and playstyle that need to be maintained or jobs lose their individuality. FFXI has always been about trials of patience, or have you just started playing?

Completely different thing. Those completely change playstyles. Treasure Hunter functions on "hit things, get stuff, except it's a little less horrible because your chance of actually getting stuff is slightly higher." Hey, since its so fun to just mindlessly grind shit, lets make everything 0.01% drop rate and 1 xp per kill. Endlessly doing the same thing for little chance of reward is the exact same game mechanic as sitting in front of a slot machine.

People love slot machines. To say that having/not having TH doesn't change playstyles is a silly statement. If i have TH without /thf then i'm not going to /thf. This is a drastic and dramatic change to playstyle. If i am farming I want TH, if not I'll just /dnc for near god mode.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Because they had to draw a line somewhere?

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And now they drew it at TH. Drawing the line at an entire category (all traits) is just arbitrary, drawing it at the content of those categories (some traits yes, others no) shows they actually put some thought in it.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Double Attack, Triple Attack, Evasion Bonus, Magic Defense Bonus, etc. are powerful as well. Should BST pets have any traits at all? After all, every trait they could have is something players have access to naturally or have to sub for. Why is this only a problem when it's a THF trait? Most pets are WAR. Should WARs (including myself) be offended and rage against the BSTs? What makes THFs so special that their job traits are off limits while everyone else is fair game?

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It's not about THF traits, it's about TH. If TH wasn't a THF ability at all, this would still be a bad idea. Because other people would have to make big sacrifices to obtain it, where BST wouldn't. The traits you mentioned are powerful in terms of combat, TH is powerful in terms of utility, which are entirely seperate categories. TH is not gonna help with any fight, but it's a convenience boost in that you don't have to fight the same mob as many times as without to get your desired drop. It does not compare at all to any other traits you mentioned. It's like having a pet that raises all your skills by 1 point every 5min, just by having it out. Contributes nothing to combat, but gives benefits outside of it that save you time and that other jobs can't obtain natively.

Except we had to pay upward of 60~100k everytime we wanted that TH. And I've seen people shout in Jeuno on Bismarck for 20k~100k rewards to ask a Thief with high TH to come tag a mob for them.

There is really no difference, it doesn't affect me either way and people know it doesn't really affect them either. Square Enix nerfed Beastmaster because the rest of the community asked for it, not because they felt themselves that Pets having TH3 was wrong, or they wouldn't have given it to them to begin with. And the community thought that it would mean that BSTs would no longer be as commonplace in Dynamis without the TH3 and what did a selfish community get in return? The same number of BSTs in there longer because now they don't get the same amount of coin. Congratulations.

What I've gathered from the last few pages is there are a great deal of non-BST who are extremely butthurt that we used to have TH3, and all this arguing coming from them is solely because getting it back would make them cry bitter tears at the fact that we can solo better than they can and still get better drops. But either way we still have TH, and we still solo better, which makes that Empyrean weapon you spent hundreds of hours building look silly. My Bunny hits harder than you~

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Originally Posted by Komori

Square Enix nerfed Beastmaster because the rest of the community asked for it, not because they felt themselves that Pets having TH3 was wrong, or they wouldn't have given it to them to begin with.

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None of this is even remotely correct. People never asked for it to be removed and SE never gave it to them in the first place. SE simply made a THF pet, who happened to have THF traits. And people never complained about TH, they complained about BST in Dynamis and especially BST behavior. People said long before this nerf happened that reducing TH wouldn't alleviate the issue.

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Originally Posted by Komori

The same number of BSTs in there longer because now they don't get the same amount of coin.

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Again, completely wrong. People who make a relic, make another when they're done. People who are done with relics make money for relic and empyrean upgrades as well as mythics and any other items, of which there are a massive number over 1M in price these days. People will never not need money anymore. As such, people will always be farming more. Slightly increasing or decreasing BST's average Dynamis yield will make no difference in that matter.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

None of this is even remotely correct. People never asked for it to be removed and SE never gave it to them in the first place. SE simply made a THF pet, who happened to have THF traits. And people never complained about TH, they complained about BST in Dynamis and especially BST behavior. People said long before this nerf happened that reducing TH wouldn't alleviate the issue.

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Actually sir, I can recall seeing a great deal of bitching regarding BST in Dynamis. The overwhelming amount of bitching about it is focused in several threads on the content forums, for example the "Nerf BST" thread which is a conglomeration of angst, whine, and cry about BST farming Dynamis more efficiently than other jobs. Many posters echoed the sentiments of the OP, agreeing that BST deserves to be nerfed because how dare we solo better than others as a solo job. There are many direct references throughout the thread regarding Dynamis currency, and it's just a humorous coincidence that shortly after that and other threads appeared discussing the same topic did our pets lose TH3.

Fact: Devs gave two of our pets TH3.
Fact: There are literally hundreds of whining posts about BST farming currency in Dynamis
Fact: Devs removed TH3 only after the tears began to literally drown them in their office cubicles.
Fact: Arcon is a banana.

P.S.: Our "behavior" is not BST exclusive, it is standard fare across all jobs. Jerks come in all flavors, dear.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Actually sir, I can recall seeing a great deal of bitching regarding BST in Dynamis.

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That's exactly what I said, as was the entire rest of your post. Don't need to reiterate to me what I already know, but thanks for trying.

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Originally Posted by Komori

Except we had to pay upward of 60~100k everytime we wanted that TH. And I've seen people shout in Jeuno on Bismarck for 20k~100k rewards to ask a Thief with high TH to come tag a mob for them.

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The gil-for-gear playstyle of BST is a major problem of the job, and I'd said as much earlier, but the answer to that problem is to make jugs cheaper.

So Arcon, you agree that the rest of his post is a reiteration of what you already know?
So you agree that

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Fact: Arcon is a banana.

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?

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Originally Posted by Malthar

So Arcon, you agree that the rest of his post is a reiteration of what you already know?
So you agree that ?

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When I reply to trolls I ignore their troll attempts, so I ignored that statement. Anyone with half a brain will know to ignore it as well and instead stay on topic instead. Unlike you, apparently.

Why do people act like TH = ultimate advantage in the game anyway? I wouldn't be bothered with SE increasing drop rates across the board or just giving most jobs the ability to equip TH gear. Since a THF will always be able to do it better because they can build more TH besides what they have on gear and will always have the most gear for it. Thief will never be touched when it comes to replacing them for drop rates alone. But the outright butthurt or anger at the thought of a level 99 Thief pet "not deserving" or Beastmaster itself getting TH being this much of an outcry is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

the hits just keep on coming!

This argument can apply to literally any subjob. When I play SAM, I can sub DNC to heal myself a bit but I lose some offensive capability from not subbing WAR. Does this mean SAM should get Berserk?

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Except Sam never had berzerk. So, let's take away hasso instead. Then lets take away magic spells from automatons because the master can just sub BLM or whm yeah? And all the PUP 2 hour abilities for that matter... Maybe we take away cures from red mage and scholar because they can just sub whm for that right? That doesn't sound like firm logic to me. In fact it's broken on almost every job in the game. They all have some abilities / traits spells that are shared with some other job. Somehow it only applies to bst though I guess.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

It hurts the game, because a good game involves meaningful choices and meaningful choices involve giving something else up.

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What meaningful choice? Are people deciding not to go beast to farm now? I thought the meaningful choice was choosing what pet to use.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

PUP can't do all these things at the same time. You use Soulsoother to get healing and sacrifice damage from Sharpshot, etc. Meaningful choices.

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Bst sacrifice better stats on the pet to use the one with treasure hunter. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

To be honest, treasure hunter is a crap trait and I'm sick of thief having to be gimped because of it.

this whole thread is filled with bsts crying over holding 4-6 mobs at a time, soloing neo-dyna NMs (with ease), and not getting all the drops that they want.

th mules are hard.

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Originally Posted by Plasticleg

this whole thread is filled with bsts crying over holding 4-6 mobs at a time, soloing neo-dyna NMs (with ease), and not getting all the drops that they want.

th mules are hard.

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Bst mules are hard

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Bst mules are hard

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way to negate your idea lol

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Originally Posted by Arcon

That's exactly what I said, as was the entire rest of your post. Don't need to reiterate to me what I already know, but thanks for trying.

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The first part of your previous post states that nobody complained about Pet TH, and only about BST "behavior" in Dynamis, yet our pets' TH was pretty much the sole reason why anyone complained. Oh, that and we were competing with them for mobs.

As far as behavior goes, I don't think it's right to try and say that we've got bad attitudes or we're spoiled. We have to make our own way in the game because parties and alliances don't like us for one reason or another, and we're treated rudely by the community at large, yet we rarely complain. Now that we are finally voicing our opinions about being shat on by the developers for the last couple of years it seems all the animosity that other players held for us is spilling out everywhere. We've come a long way from death ruolettes and exp penalties, but the job is in no way overpowered, and there's nothing wrong with the way we carry out our business nor is it any different than what every other group does. We are not red headed stepchildren any more than you all are master debaters.

I should point out that not all is bad and wrong with the job. It's more like a sack of poo with some gems in it. If you're lucky you might even find a decoder ring in there. Why do I still play it? Well, because poo washes off.

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Originally Posted by Plasticleg

way to negate your idea lol

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I'm not sure what mules have to do with this argument. Are you saying they should nerf thf because people have mules? or are you saying that a bst with a thf mule would be better than 2 bsts?

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Originally Posted by Komori

Why do people act like TH = ultimate advantage in the game anyway?

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Because that's what it is. TH is a massive advantage. It can mean the difference between hunting something for a month and a week. If you don't consider that a huge advantage then you got your own priorities wrong, not everyone else.

I wouldn't have any issue with SE lowering TH effects and increasing drops across the board. As a THF it's only natural to hate TH, because SE constantly use it as an excuse to not give our job any other buffs. Which is why I find it even stranger that BST are so obsessed with it. Would you like it if they increased your TH and neglected your job in other areas in the process?

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Originally Posted by Caketime

The first part of your previous post states that nobody complained about Pet TH, and only about BST "behavior" in Dynamis, yet our pets' TH was pretty much the sole reason why anyone complained. Oh, that and we were competing with them for mobs.

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I can't speak for others, but it certainly didn't seem that way to me. Peoples' main complaint was BST holding several mobs, while doing high damage and at the same having higher survival chances than anyone else, all while being solo. Sure, TH was mentioned occasionally by one or the other individual, but it was just as well pointed out by other people that decreasing their TH won't change anything (which it didn't).

Arcon, bub, I'm just saying what you said.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Seriously the BST hate is a little much. It's fine if people dislike BST, but maybe you should go to a different forum. It's unbelievable that BST is good at 1 and only 1 thing and people light their hair on fire. You aren't willing to invite bst to like any event, and then you're going to get mad that they solo things? #facepalm

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You're wrong on that one, BSTs are being invited to Voidwatch for Pet Attacks more occasionally because White on Pet Attacks.

That was before /fume was discovered.