Relic and Empyrean jobs that can use them.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

As long as the letters WHM are the only letters on Mjollnir, I think I'll be okay.

That said, please be sure to examine the Empyrean weapons closely. I think they're new enough for a change in who can equip them!

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You didn't hear? SAM and WAR get Mjollnir after next update.

They wouldn't need to change the stats on the relics; it's just an excuse they think we'll buy into for some reason. Nothing would be gamebreaking with the stats as they are, on the jobs that should get them. End of story.

Edit: it's also really starting to sound like this Okipuit guy is talking on his own, referencing the BST thread where he posted rudely, ignoring the previous post by other SE reps about BST TH+ equipment.

I don't see why so many WHMs are self-entitled about Mjollnir to be threatened by the prospect of SCH ever being added to it. You utter the words "Molva Maul" and they all put fingers in their ears and start screaming "LALALALALA" at the tops of their lungs . . .

That said, yeah, not being able to add post-CoP jobs to Relic Weapons (and, by extension, post-WotG jobs with Empyrean Weapons) "because we would have to change the stats" is a bit of a non-sequitur, as everybody here has pretty much called out so far. Even if it's for this whole "balance" facade that SE is also frequently derided for (because let's face it, that did get thrown out the window with the introduction of Empyrean Weapons), I would bet you that adding Excalibur to Blue Mage would mandate giving it better stats, since we all know BLU is SE's baby in terms of the gear they have available to them. And I, for one, would certainly not argue against an Excalibur buff.

There are no job specific stats on relic weapons and in no way are the jobs in question better or worse suited to using the weapons than those already on them. There is no logic behind their decisions.

Only possible job being messed with PUP via counter I think...

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Originally Posted by Byrth

There are no job specific stats on relic weapons and in no way are the jobs in question better or worse suited to using the weapons than those already on them. There is no logic behind their decisions.

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I would think the fact that Relics and Emps have no job specific stats would be a reason they SHOULD be equippable by new jobs. Honestly, I'd rather not have either new jobs if we have to choose between Mythic or AH weapons, I highly doubt any of the stuff they add in SoA will be as available as even a Tenebreuse or as useful as a Fulgurante. I'd assume new stuff would be either Rare/EX with a horrible drop rate, or AHable with a 20-30mil price tag. If we who are looking forward to Rune Fencer are lucky, we might get Hoarfrost Blade/Borealis, or our best GS might be a Jingang or a Kriegsmesser. Don't get your hopes up or you'll be like the Ridill owners whose mouths were watering when BLU's weapon type was announced only to be let down.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Only possible job being messed with PUP via counter I think...

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There is that, I suppose, still, not groundbreaking.

Any job can sub MNK, use Counterstance, and get much more Counter than Spharai gives.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

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And changes to current stats are a bad thing in a lot of cases (This would mean adjusted base damage and delay to compensate for multiple jobs); be careful what you wish for, people. I don't see why the new jobs shouldn't get empyreans/magian weapons (since empyrean weapons are "considered" (there are definitely exceptions to this) the most powerful magian weapons), but relics I can kinda understand.

This is, indeed, not new reasoning for SE.

I can name ONE weapon right off the bat that would have lowered stats: Spharai.

The damage and delay would both be lowered (this I could guarantee) to compensate for PUP. PUP is NOT known for having high delay weapons; Verethragna's damage/delay ratings are the way they are because PUP is on it. Hand-to-hand R/M/E is one of those cases where the empyrean has the weakest damage rating for one job but the highest for another because it has to compensate for another job.

This isn't disrespect towards the job, either - it's merely observation.

Case in point, just damage/delay on the level 99 weapons:
Spharai: DMG:+52, Delay:+86 MNK
Glanzfaust: DMG:+51 Delay:+96 MNK
Verethragna: DMG:+42 Delay:+51 MNK/PUP
Kenkonken: DMG:+41 Delay:+49 PUP

I can guarantee they wouldn't put PUP on Spharai and call it a day. SE is all about "balancing" - whether we players agree with it or not. And their point of view of "balancing" in the case of weapons and multiple job use can be seen well comparing those damage and delay ratings. That is the most likely scenario that Okipuit is referring to from the development team.

Eh, figured I'd put my two cents into this - I don't really play anymore, but I had to show an example of what they could most likely mean. That doesn't even consider other stats that could be adjusted.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Greetings,

We would like to provide further explanation as to why Relic Weapons will not be expanded to other jobs.
Relic weapons were created based on the current weapon types available in Vana'diel and not based on the available jobs. Since there are differences between which weapons certain jobs can equip, this is something that cannot be completely equal.



In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

After a thorough discussion, we have decided to keep Relic Weapons as they are in the case new weapons are added. These new weapons will be designed around their respective jobs.

Also, in regards to mythic weapons, these weapons are similar to artifact and relic gear as they are job specific, so we plan on releasing mythic weapons for any new jobs that are introduced moving forward.

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Without a doubt you guys are grasping at straws. We have heard a lot of excuses, but this is by far the worse.

Emperian weapons have stats geared purely to their WS modifiers. The only thing you could say is the base damage should be higher or lower, but this is really a moot point.

The relic staff is garbage so I will skip over even talking about that, but the relic GS on the other hand.

So we have PLD and DRK. Jobs that are completely different in their intended roles (that is all that matters for you guys right?) that get the same sort of weapon, but not Runic Fencer? Going by the logic of the Dev team Runic Fencer should not be on any existing weapon. However, I am strongly expect that they will be on existing weapons you can pick up at your local AH.

I can see not adding armor to abyssea for the two jobs as that throws off the number of papers each NM drops or the number of jobs a +2 item is used for. But, weapons that even multiple jobs can already use? You want to claim that is geared to the job when multiple jobs with various intended uses and power can use them? What is this, I don't even..

I'm not sayin by anymeans its game breaking, just something PUP doesn't have, that it would get... Trust me, I'm not against this ;>_> just making a point.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

I'm not sayin by anymeans its game breaking, just something PUP doesn't have, that it would get... Trust me, I'm not against this ;>_> just making a point.

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Remember now, DNC can proc with evisceration where PUP can not with Asuran Fists. This is simply because clearly evisceration was acceptably geared towards DNC when they did not exist. Where Asuran Fists was not made beforehand for use on PUP.

In fact the Devs were astounded when they tested DNC, BLU, COR, and SCH. They all could use a quest WS they would later make a proc in multiple events. Sadly though, when they tested Asuran Fists on PUP it simply split and atom causing a massive explosion with countless lives lost. They then realized it be impossible to ever try this again. Then along came Geomancer and Runic Fencer,,,

Allowing 4 out of 5 jobs access to a proc is actually more game breaking than allowing them all access. BUT! We must all learn the logic of the Devs!

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

After a thorough discussion, we have decided to keep Relic Weapons as they are in the case new weapons are added. These new weapons will be designed around their respective jobs.

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I can understand that reason but saying relics would be overpowered when really they would be no more overpowered than they are already.

BLU Excalibur is weaker than almace anyway and won't turn BLU into a pld replace.
COR Annihilator would make the job stronger on phyical mobs but lack of a good bullet would keep it well behide RNG
PUP Empyrean is stronger than the relic anyway.
SCH on staff or club ... yea not overpowered
DNC on Mandau would be no more overpowered than a THF w/ mandau

As for Geo or Rnf

That's fair enough to say that but since Emp great sword is already weaker than some VW GSD w/e.

Honestly it's a really crappy excuse in my opinion.

The only reason i se for not adding these weapon on jobs is this.
Not adding jobs to relic so that everyone is on a level playing field when these jobs are/were added and since these jobs have exsisted without these weapons it would be unfair on the jobs that have built other weapons to lose there advantage or there effort made less vauble.

But ofc w/ the above every update old gear is made obsolete i waited like 3 years to get an algol and once i did the abyssea update said /usless.

Please tell me IN SPECIFIC what stat on which weapon would be overpowered for the aforementioned jobs? Go on SE your move! This is bullshit and you know it. From what is stated on rune fencer we can pretty much already see that it won't have the attack bonuses that a warrior or dark knight have. So even IF it got ragnarok it still wouldn't parse as high. Don't even get me started on dancer and mandau, sure the attack is nice but due to the way damage is calculated for one handed weapons and considering level correction it still wont be as good as a fully geared/skilled drk or war. It really makes me wonder if they even play their own game. You don't to add new empyreans because they wont fit in the current paths? Well at this moment there is nothing else Kukulkan/Sedna is used for other than staff. Throw these 2 jobs onto that path and BAM problem solved.

I AM full on mad.

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

I don't see why so many WHMs are self-entitled about Mjollnir to be threatened by the prospect of SCH ever being added to it. You utter the words "Molva Maul" and they all put fingers in their ears and start screaming "LALALALALA" at the tops of their lungs . . .

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The Molva Maul is the main reason White Mages feel so threatened, another would be Realmrazer, which is in fact better then Hexa Strike despite the nerf. Staff jobs like Scholar traditionally do their damage from magical sources. White Mages use clubs and hammers.

The bottom line is no other job is a Club job. Paladins, who might actually make any amount of sense with one are a Sword job. Scholars, the class where we only talk about this because of a pair of what are essentially mistakes that happened in Abyssea (the only Hammer style clubs SCH even gets is the Molva Maul, and the Trainee Hammer, further adding the the mistake category), is most definitely a Staff job - their Mythic is a Staff, their Nyzul WS is a Staff WS, their Empyrean is a Staff, they can't do Magian Club trials, they don't have Mystic Boon but instead have Spirit Taker, Shattersoul combos much, much better with their nukes... the list goes on. This isn't like Regen where SCH was good at it early on and SE made a mistake and didn't give them Regen IV for whatever reason, this is something that makes absolutely no sense for Scholar. I highly doubt if the typo that is the Molva Maul never existed we'd be having this discussion, since one weapon does not a master make.

At best, I might consider it fair for Geomancer if the job uses hammer style clubs, gets Hexa Strike, but I still wouldn't like it. White Mage got something special and unique, playing a WHM DD has a very unique feel to it, both gameplay-wise and lore wise.

On and to play devil's advocate, I don't see why so many Scholars are so entitled about having everything White Mage has. You utter the "Cure IV is good enough for 99% of situations" and they put fingers in their ears and start screaming "CURE VI CURE VI CURE VI" at the top of their lungs.

SE shoulda just said:

nope.jpg

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Originally Posted by Economizer

things

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Dear White Mages:

You're saying that you're worried that your toes might be stepped on? By a job who can't even melee as well as you? That's cute.

Sincerely,
Red Mages

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In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

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This is a total crock of shit. Relics stats aren't tailored to jobs at all. They have a large chunk or ACC or ATK attached to them depending on if they are 1 or 2 handed, and either a random debuff or boost, and (for the most part) WSes with mods that suck completely and have drastically underpowered aftermaths. It must have been hard crafting WSes with such unique and powerful mods like Geirskogul and Scourge (Translation note: Try to realize this is sarcasm when you tell the brain trust). I'm sure the whole fucking game would just collapse if you gave Rune Fencer access to the best GS, if it's MND/CHR modded WS didn't go unchanged!

I don't even care that new jobs can't use them, but the shitty excuses for why they can't are damn insulting to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.

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Originally Posted by Return1

This is a total crock of shit. Relics stats aren't tailored to jobs at all. They have a large chunk or ACC or ATK attached to them depending on if they are 1 or 2 handed, and either a random debuff or boost, and (for the most part) WSes with mods that suck completely and have drastically underpowered aftermaths. It must have been hard crafting WSes with such unique and powerful mods like Geirskogul and Scourge (Translation note: Try to realize this is sarcasm when you tell the brain trust). I'm sure the whole fucking game would just collapse if you gave Rune Fencer access to the best GS, if it's MND/CHR modded WS didn't go unchanged!

I don't even care that new jobs can't use them, but the shitty excuses for why they can't are damn insulting to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.

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so much this! SE learn from this guy here ^

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons

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But why lol?
Would you need to change the stats on CLAUSTRUM to make it so SCH can equip it? Why? Just add a /SCH there in the list :D
Why would need to change EXCALIBUR stats for for BLU?

Altough I agree Mandau for DNC, Spharai for PUP and Annihilator for COR could indeed be a problem.
I mean, if devs said something like:

Spharai is a weapon meant for MNK and it would create us issues to balance the game were we to make it available for PUP, the same thing can be said for Mandau and Annihilator, so in the end we decided it would have been more fair to just leave things as they are

Now... if they said something like THIS, maybe I would have accepted. Why don't they start saying more specific things? Giving the impression they really know the game, they play it, they know how it works, they know the details?
They always give us these generic replies, as if they think we're all casuals who don't know shit about the game and so we need to be held by the hand because otherwise we wouldn't understand their replies at all.

I mean, wtf? This damages both parts. It does damage to us users because we always end up being unsatisfied and frustrated.
It damages the dev's reputation because they keep giving the impression they don't know shit about the game they develop.


Please Camate, tell them to stop giving such generic and appearently nonsensical replies. Tell them to give us DETAILS.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

But why lol?
Would you need to change the stats on CLAUSTRUM to make it so SCH can equip it? Why? Just add a /SCH there in the list :D
Why would need to change EXCALIBUR stats for for BLU?

Altough I agree Mandau for DNC, Spharai for PUP and Annihilator for COR could indeed be a problem.
I mean, if devs said something like:

Spharai is a weapon meant for MNK and it would create us issues to balance the game were we to make it available for PUP, the same thing can be said for Mandau and Annihilator, so in the end we decided it would have been more fair to just leave things as they are

Now... if they said something like THIS, maybe I would have accepted. Why don't they start saying more specific things? Giving the impression they really know the game, they play it, they know how it works, they know the details?
They always give us these generic replies, as if they think we're all casuals who don't know shit about the game and so we need to be held by the hand because otherwise we wouldn't understand their replies at all.

I mean, wtf? This damages both parts. It does damage to us users because we always end up being unsatisfied and frustrated.
It damages the dev's reputation because they keep giving the impression they don't know shit about the game they develop.


Please Camate, tell them to stop giving such generic and appearently nonsensical replies. Tell them to give us DETAILS.

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Like I said already, mandau wouldn't add too much more to the table that isn't already obtainable from twashtar, coruscanti, or str thokchas.

Cor and wildfire fit together so good that an anni cor would be hard pressed to surpass it, but I'm sure some cor somewhere could do it. However cor's themselves aren't top tier DD and an addition of annihilator would be nice. The whole ranged attack system is messed up and needs heavy revamping for it to even be an issue though.

Pup + Spharai does nothing to complement eachother like pup + kenkonken. Sure it would be a fun weapon, but it would be less than impressive when compared to verethranga even.

Maybe the new jobs aren't getting any empyrean or relics because SoA will bring in its own set of ultimate weapons? That's the only feasible reason why I can see SE not taking the time or resources to look over the current sets of ultimate weapons...

Rune Fencer is virtually doomed. With the ease of getting Relic weapons, and the pointlessness of tanks, I can't see a use for it as of now. So they specialize in a weapon they don't get the strongest form of? GENIUS!

So they're at best 3rd best with GS, making them a throwaway DD compared to all the Ragnarok DRKs and WARs.

Tanking is a joke because of enmity cap, everyone can get -50% PDT/MDT or damn close, and MP management is nonexistent.

So what does Rune Fencer have to offer? The promise of a Mythic that currently would be ridiculous to obtain, and that would be passable with Resolution 5/5.

I can appreciate that at least you are in fact adding a new "ultimate" weapon for every class with Mythic weapons, however, it's also a massive problem because of the difficulty of obtaining said mythic weapons.

Mythic weapons need to be easier to obtain for this thought process to make sense to the players. Why not add new relic or empyrean weapons that are focused on the new jobs instead? At least the community at large would be able to get those.

It's really amazing that SE is putting all this time and money into pissing off the players lately. I really believe 2 things about this game right now:

1. SE is trying to shut down FFXI. They're well on their way to making even the most hardcore players give up and go elsewhere.
2. "Balance" has to be a mistranslation, because this kind of thing is quite literally the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

COR Annihilator would make the job stronger on phyical mobs but lack of a good bullet would keep it well behide RNG

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I'm afraid that atm their concern is that a class like COR, which was originally meant to be a buffer able to do some damage, can already deal too much damage.
Indeed there are situations where this is true.
Armageddon is awesome, but Annihilator would be a pretty good weapon as well for COR, despite the lack of gear RNG has.
Comparing the two common options that are easily obtainable without too much effort, that is 95 Anni (71 base damage) vs 90 Armageddon (64 base damage).
If I recall base damage has an impact on Quick Draw?
Also, Coronach's aftermath is pretty cool.
Not saying Annihilator would ve overpowered or that it would break the game/the job, but I can understand them for having some concerns about it.

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PUP Empyrean is stronger than the relic anyway.

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premise: LOLPUP
Aside from that you're forgetting that PUP has naturally access to a very powerful WS which is not bound to a weapon, that's Stringing Pummel. An awesome 6hit CRIT ws. Amount of crit rate given per TP is lower than Victory Smite, but nonetheless that's still a very powerful WS.
In my opinion Spharai would be a very powerful weapon for PUP compared to Verethragna. Aside from the difference in gear options, it would probably be more powerful than it is on MNK since they can't use a WS like Victory Smite (i.e. Stringing Pummel) on Spharai but have to resort to Shijin Spiral, which is available to PUP as well and PUP has a lot of nice +DEX gear option.
Anyway, lolpup etc, but Spharai would really be a nice weapon for PUP.

Isn't this the point of the test server, though, to test ideas out and see if they can work/need tweaking? Unless adding a job temporarily to the relic weapons requires the sacrifice of 100 lambs to some kind of deity for the purpose of player-base testing, I don't really see why the idea cannot at least be entertained. Considering that the players are the best judges of what is overpowered or not (because let's face it the Devs don't, otherwise we wouldn't have all this rage), then the test server would be an ideal place for these kinds of things. Of course, you'd have to add the relics as acquirable items temporarily too.

At least when it comes to player based testing, it's usually thorough and shows why certain setups are as good/bad as they are and are either overpowered or underpowered. When it comes to SE's reasons, however, all we get is "it would probably be too powerful" or "<insert other lame excuse here>", and no actual testing data to show this. The majority of the player base won't settle for unproven reasons, because they aren't reasoned to begin with. Some examples as to why these things might be even remotely too much for the Balance to handle might just reduce the amount of agony that players are suffering when they see a Community Rep reply to a post regarding a subject matter that's been in discussion for years.

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Originally Posted by Return1

Rune Fencer is virtually doomed. With the ease of getting Relic weapons, and the pointlessness of tanks, I can't see a use for it as of now. So they specialize in a weapon they don't get the strongest form of? GENIUS!

So they're at best 3rd best with GS, making them a throwaway DD compared to all the Ragnarok DRKs and WARs.

Tanking is a joke because of enmity cap, everyone can get -50% PDT/MDT or damn close, and MP management is nonexistent.

So what does Rune Fencer have to offer? The promise of a Mythic that currently would be ridiculous to obtain, and that would be passable with Resolution 5/5.

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Its not really no Rag that's limiting it, it's no trial 216 weapon. The OaT Fulgurante is so incredibly powerful compared to all other non-Rag GS's that without it RUN will become a 3rd tier DD. Even a PUP will become more powerful then they are.

Oki ask the dev's about access to magian weapons, specifically the OaT / Fire STR ones.

Tbh I miss the point of the Test Server compared to other games.
When has a bug found out by users been corrected before the test server patch hit live servers?
When have observations on unbalanced aspects made by users concerning test server data been implemented on live servers?
Makes you wonder wtf is the point of Test Server. Altough I admit I had my good share of fun there.


As for the relics I wanted to add that imho even if they allowed the 3 ToAU and the 2 WotG jobs to use relics, it wouldn't be a big deal, really. Some slight unbalancement? Possibly. Something to be concerned about? Not really.
My point is that I hate the stupid and generic replies they keep on giving us, treating us as a non informed, casual, noob player base while we're totally not.

We want detailed replies. They sometimes managed to give us those replies, they need to do it more often, possibly everytime.
Replies like the one that Camate brought to us concerning Relic weapons are unacceptable.
They need to explain us the DETAILS of why they feel concerned about that.
If it's just an excuse and not a real reason well... then make up better excuses next time.

An example? Check the way Blizzard handles replies to specific questions to the game.
Not claiming they get it right all the times, but even when you don't like thei replies (which in my case is very often) at least they usually make sense and you can understand why they are saying something even if you don't agree with that.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Greetings,

We would like to provide further explanation as to why Relic Weapons will not be expanded to other jobs.
Relic weapons were created based on the current weapon types available in Vana'diel and not based on the available jobs. Since there are differences between which weapons certain jobs can equip, this is something that cannot be completely equal.



In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

After a thorough discussion, we have decided to keep Relic Weapons as they are in the case new weapons are added. These new weapons will be designed around their respective jobs.

Also, in regards to mythic weapons, these weapons are similar to artifact and relic gear as they are job specific, so we plan on releasing mythic weapons for any new jobs that are introduced moving forward.

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No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? Or half is 10 for 20 dmg?

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Originally Posted by Vivik

No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? Or half is 10 for 20 dmg?

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Made at least as much sense as the official response. Plus, points for being classic.

You know what I agree, I mean look at how powerful the relic staff is in the hands of a BLM! Now just imagine if you gave that to sch! They would be mele bad asses, no one would ever want a war again!

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Its not really no Rag that's limiting it, it's no trial 216 weapon. The OaT Fulgurante is so incredibly powerful compared to all other non-Rag GS's that without it RUN will become a 3rd tier DD. Even a PUP will become more powerful then they are.

Oki ask the dev's about access to magian weapons, specifically the OaT / Fire STR ones.

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Well no rag is the real limit, no one gives a shit if you can't access the second best weapon, unless you can't access the best.

Also, I would be willing to bet that even SE isn't retarded enough to release a job without magian weapons. Also, if RUN makes it onto any magian weapon trials, it'll most likely be on an Empyrean because SE wouldn't want to take the time to remove them from just the Empyreans instead of copy pasta all across.

The job is pretty DOA though in terms of DDing and tanking. It specializes in GS and has no access to the strongest GS, which can easily be obtained in a couple months of laid back farming or even in weeks with some zeal.

Okay so if those weapon are out of the question, could there be something new and equivalent made for those job's so that the player base could have another option?

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

LOL I feel truly sorry for Okipuit, bad news after bad news have to be delivered. Well at least we know that the current team is just as stubborn and clueless as the one before them. With barely any visions other than just put another bandage solutions, or flatly refused any suggestions from their player base. I think it's rather clear the vision now, ignore the player base, hope they quit, and perhaps migrate to FF14.... Though most would probably just ignore SE, quit alltogether, stop buying their future product, and lost faith at the company.

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You can keep saying this all you want but that won't make it any more truer. This isn't like when you were in elementary school where you can repeat yourself till your wish comes true.

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Though most would probably just ignore SE, quit alltogether, stop buying their future product, and lost faith at the company.

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'

You =/= Most players. Most players actually would rather play XIV than rejoin XI not because of the rough start a new player will have, but because the community has degraded into something fierce.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Greetings,

We would like to provide further explanation as to why Relic Weapons will not be expanded to other jobs.
Relic weapons were created based on the current weapon types available in Vana'diel and not based on the available jobs. Since there are differences between which weapons certain jobs can equip, this is something that cannot be completely equal.



In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

After a thorough discussion, we have decided to keep Relic Weapons as they are in the case new weapons are added. These new weapons will be designed around their respective jobs.

Also, in regards to mythic weapons, these weapons are similar to artifact and relic gear as they are job specific, so we plan on releasing mythic weapons for any new jobs that are introduced moving forward.

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This does nothing to answer, and infact, completely ignores, the other question posed even in the post you quoted; what about EMPYREAN weapons? Further, will you please just tell use whether or not the new jobs will be able to use magians at all? Right now, it sounds like you guys are trying to say that neither runefencer nor geomancer will have access to magian trial weapons, because magian trials were "balanced around the 20 existing jobs" because good lord, there's something game breaking and unbalanced around every weapon having the same stat bonuses available as every other weapon of similar hand-requirements, except for dmg and delay values.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

The Molva Maul is the main reason White Mages feel so threatened, another would be Realmrazer, which is in fact better then Hexa Strike despite the nerf. Staff jobs like Scholar traditionally do their damage from magical sources. White Mages use clubs and hammers.

The bottom line is no other job is a Club job. Paladins, who might actually make any amount of sense with one are a Sword job. Scholars, the class where we only talk about this because of a pair of what are essentially mistakes that happened in Abyssea (the only Hammer style clubs SCH even gets is the Molva Maul, and the Trainee Hammer, further adding the the mistake category), is most definitely a Staff job - their Mythic is a Staff, their Nyzul WS is a Staff WS, their Empyrean is a Staff, they can't do Magian Club trials, they don't have Mystic Boon but instead have Spirit Taker, Shattersoul combos much, much better with their nukes... the list goes on. This isn't like Regen where SCH was good at it early on and SE made a mistake and didn't give them Regen IV for whatever reason, this is something that makes absolutely no sense for Scholar. I highly doubt if the typo that is the Molva Maul never existed we'd be having this discussion, since one weapon does not a master make.

At best, I might consider it fair for Geomancer if the job uses hammer style clubs, gets Hexa Strike, but I still wouldn't like it. White Mage got something special and unique, playing a WHM DD has a very unique feel to it, both gameplay-wise and lore wise.

On and to play devil's advocate, I don't see why so many Scholars are so entitled about having everything White Mage has. You utter the "Cure IV is good enough for 99% of situations" and they put fingers in their ears and start screaming "CURE VI CURE VI CURE VI" at the top of their lungs.

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Whm's got a lot of unique shit, like cure skin, respectable light damage nukes (due to solace), an untouchable throne as the best healer in the game, stupid amounts of mp efficiency, lots of unique party buffs (auspice, pro/shell -ra lines, boost- line, which is unique from rdm because rdm is self-only), as well as all one of rdm's new, unique debuffs (addle). Whm is the strongest healer, the strongest magical buffer outside of embrava, and the strongest mage physically (ie: ability to melee). WHM is sitting on Mary Sue levels of "unique and special" and it really wouldn't suffer at all if it lost some of that. Sorry, econ, I like you, and I think you're a very intelligent guy, but whm is just a little OP right now. They have no place to be bitching about losing one of their many unique/special toys.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

I'm afraid that atm their concern is that a class like COR, which was originally meant to be a buffer able to do some damage, can already deal too much damage.
Indeed there are situations where this is true.
Armageddon is awesome, but Annihilator would be a pretty good weapon as well for COR, despite the lack of gear RNG has.
Comparing the two common options that are easily obtainable without too much effort, that is 95 Anni (71 base damage) vs 90 Armageddon (64 base damage).
If I recall base damage has an impact on Quick Draw?
Also, Coronach's aftermath is pretty cool.
Not saying Annihilator would ve overpowered or that it would break the game/the job, but I can understand them for having some concerns about it.


premise: LOLPUP
Aside from that you're forgetting that PUP has naturally access to a very powerful WS which is not bound to a weapon, that's Stringing Pummel. An awesome 6hit CRIT ws. Amount of crit rate given per TP is lower than Victory Smite, but nonetheless that's still a very powerful WS.
In my opinion Spharai would be a very powerful weapon for PUP compared to Verethragna. Aside from the difference in gear options, it would probably be more powerful than it is on MNK since they can't use a WS like Victory Smite (i.e. Stringing Pummel) on Spharai but have to resort to Shijin Spiral, which is available to PUP as well and PUP has a lot of nice +DEX gear option.
Anyway, lolpup etc, but Spharai would really be a nice weapon for PUP.

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They didn't have any problem putting brd on mandau, I don't see why putting cor on annihilator's any different. That's said from the perspective of someone who knows and regularly plays with a very well geared melee brd who does some of the craziest shit.

Also, as for pup, I do want to point out that for pup, shijin spiral and stringing pummel average roughly the same damage (ignoring kenkonken) with SS winning against higher defense shit, and SP winning against lower defense shit. Stringing Pummel is about the same level of power as Victory Smite, as well (ie: regular stringing pummel vs WoE weapon VS, or KKK stringing pummel vs Vere VS), due primarily to our terrible selection of str gear. The primary reason KKK is stronger than Vere for pup is that it has -50 delay on it. Even if we had access to spharai, we'd still never out damage a mnk in zerg situations; kick attacks alone are a huge gap that our puppet can't currently bridge. I really don't care about whether pup gets spharai, I'd still take KKK over them every day of the week, and twice on sunday, but pup having spharai won't suddenly make it stronger than mnk, so SE doesn't have any grounds to worry about that.

Besides, Evasion procs before counter, so pup can't even make the same level of use out of spharai's counter effect, because of how much more evasion we have, relative to a mnk.

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Originally Posted by Vivik

No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? Or half is 10 for 20 dmg?

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An winrar is you!

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Originally Posted by Elexia

You =/= Most players. Most players actually would rather play XIV than rejoin XI not because of the rough start a new player will have, but because the community has degraded into something fierce.

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Well... I don't know, see, Bioware is like how Square is in a way. They were both Single Player game makers, and then they took their steps into MMO world, this game is going alot better than The Old Republic did, however its kinda the same idea. Bioware showed that after all that time, delaying, and everything else, their MMO kinda flopped. Now SE is doing better with FFXI but really, the question is what are they doing with it? If they ignore player feedback, or everyone outside of Japan at least, then what does that say about them with MMOs? If you are running a multiplayer game, feedback is very important, more so than any other kind of game. Now, if SE doesn't listen to players, and it ends up killing this game, I think it will show to others, that SE may not be the best company to put your money into with your Subscription. Another MMO may take players more seriously and really try to do things about flaws players find.

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Originally Posted by Return1

Well no rag is the real limit, no one gives a shit if you can't access the second best weapon, unless you can't access the best.

Also, I would be willing to bet that even SE isn't retarded enough to release a job without magian weapons. Also, if RUN makes it onto any magian weapon trials, it'll most likely be on an Empyrean because SE wouldn't want to take the time to remove them from just the Empyreans instead of copy pasta all across.

The job is pretty DOA though in terms of DDing and tanking. It specializes in GS and has no access to the strongest GS, which can easily be obtained in a couple months of laid back farming or even in weeks with some zeal.

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Ohh how little you know...

That OaT competes with Rag damn near. It does that due to it's delay being significantly easier to work with then Rag's 431 delay and that it will on average shave a full hit off your time till 100.

Seriously 431 delay sucks to work with as /WAR.

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Ohh how little you know...

That OaT competes with Rag damn near. It does that due to it's delay being significantly easier to work with then Rag's 431 delay and that it will on average shave a full hit off your time till 100.

Seriously 431 delay sucks to work with as /WAR.

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You should have retardedly fast TP gain with either weapon unless you suck. It's fine to say it keeps up with napkin math, but in human performance it's not as good as napkin math states. The relatively garbage DoT (before even considering Rag's 2.5 damage mod), more WS saturation, lack of ACC, and lack of perfect timing puts Fulgurante soundly behind Ragnarok.

This is all besides the point though. No one should give a shit about Fulgorante with Ragnarok EASILY available. That's why not having access to Ragnarok is the biggest nail in the Coffin for RUN DD, Ragnarok DRKs or WARs are dime a dozen, and better than any "non-mythic" GS using DD. Talking about a lack of Fulgurante is just beating the dead horse that is RUN DD at that point.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

[...]
In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

[...]

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You don't have to change relic weapon itself in any way. If, for example, you think by adding DNC to Mandau would make DNC to do more damage than 'old' Mandau jobs, just add a piece of armor (ammo, ring, whatever) that adds like +10% Mercy Stroke, or latent effect "Mandau equipped: +3% damage", usable only by 'old' Mandau jobs.
Or if that's too radical, next time you make new better armors (this will definitely happen with Seekers of Adoulin), just rebalance new relic jobs at that time. I't's not really that hard to add new jobs to Relic Weapons. You will be doing major rebalancing/rehauls of most jobs for Seekers of Adoulin anyways - might as well kill two birds with one stone.
Many players over the years have asked for this. Instead of saying "We can't be bothered to go through all the hassle" just make it happen. It's the "right" thing to do.

But honestly, as I see it, DNC getting Mandau, COR Annihilator this very moment, etc will not upset current balance that much. What kind of armageddon are you trying to prevent by denying your players this change?

While we understand that you (SE) grasp the game from a programming standpoint and understand the game as a whole...... on paper. What a vast majority of the player base questions is, do any of you actually play the game?
To further clarify that, do any of you actually play the game as freethinking individuals seeking character growth? We want to know if anyone that has any part in the design process there actually plays the game as a game player would in it's current state.
You claim to understand the game when clearly you only understand the concept of the game and not the game itself.