Cause I'm the only person making assumptions and only the people who can't see the point behind adding phoenix downs are the ones making assumptions. Got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krashport
Where is my Phoenix Down?!
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03-20-2011, 05:07 PMZyeriis
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03-20-2011, 05:08 PMColdbrandI never said that at any point. My arguments have been:Quote:
Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin
.)Phoenix Downs are an integral staple of the FF series that should be present in each and every FF game.
.)Phoenix Downs reduce the constant urgency to always have a healer nearby, which I think is a positive.
.)Phoenix Downs are useful regardless of the existence of the various forms of reraise, which I don't think is debatable, since everyone dies and often more than once, including the people who can bring others up from death, using phoenix downs on those people is the next logical step in every other FF game, which was the point of the FFT comparsion.
I've never made any mention of anyone's skill levels, so I don't understand your behaving so sensitively. As it stands, neither of you two have really debunked my arguments, because they're basically factually true(with the exception that I think phoenix downs should be in each FF game, which is an opinion). Having more options is good, as it turns out. -
03-20-2011, 05:14 PMZyeriisEverything you just wrote was written in an opinion format not counting the part about phoenix downs being a staple of the final fantasy series yet, in the very same post you affirm them as factually true? (Something is backwards here as you claim the things you wrote in opinion format as facts and you consider the fact in that list to be your opinion [sort of])Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
Point 2) "which i think is a positive" It's not. If you have no form of healing around you, then you aren't playing any final fantasy game properly.
Point 3) People die, that's supposed to happen. Unless you feel that we should all have stacks of 99 phoenix downs, which would require phoenix downs to be extremely cheap. In which case, fuck mages, let's just zerg everything. Sounds challenging :/ -
03-20-2011, 05:14 PMFlunklesnarkin
I think what we are really forgetting to talk about here is the re-phoenix down
for when you forget reraise and your buddy forgets a phoenix down...
you can use the re-phoenix down -
03-20-2011, 05:20 PMColdbrand
Phoenix downs are a staple of the FF series. Fact.
Having phoenix downs would reduce the need for healers (specifically people who can cast raise.) Fact.
Phoenix downs would be useful even in the presence of reraise. Fact.
http://pbskids.org/arthur/games/factsopinions/
If you were reading all my posts I presented the idea of rare/ex phoenix downs in my first post. Never have I mentioned 99 stacks. Oops. -
03-20-2011, 05:23 PMZyeriisSome one has reading issues :/ "Unless you want stacks of 99 phoenix downs" =/= you said you wanted that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
"Phoenix Downs reduce the constant urgency to always have a healer nearby, which I think is a positive." Opinion.
"Phoenix Downs are useful regardless of the existence of the various forms of reraise, which I don't think is debatable," Opinion. -
03-20-2011, 05:24 PMFlunklesnarkinWe can start with the Fact style of posting now :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
Phoenix down's won't replace a healer.. if you think you might die.. bring a healer.. Fact
also.. broccoli is gross.. Fact -
03-20-2011, 05:27 PMColdbrandIt's not a matter of opinion that they're useful regardless of reraise. It can be proven easily. Here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyeriis
I'm an adventurer, I cast reraise and fight a hard fight with a group. I die, reraise item is used up. I die again, but the WHM is also dead, phoenix down brings me back up.
Phoenix Down was useful in that situation functioning as it would in any other game in the series. The only way it wouldn't be a fact is if it was implemented in a way that bared no resemblance to the rest of the franchise, which the vast majority of the items in the game don't do. Potions are still potions, ethers are still ethers, etc.
My statement that I think it's positive that the monopoly on party presence that healers have being lessened is a positive is an opinion yes, however no matter how small the reduction in their necessity may be, any change is in fact a change and therefore the first part of that sentence is a fact. -
03-20-2011, 05:28 PMZyeriis
1) If either you or your healer die, more than once (thus resulting in no RR). You failed. Get over it.
2) If you didn't bring a healer and die, more than once (thus resulting in no RR) or die once without having RR. You failed the moment you left unprepared. Get over it. -
03-20-2011, 05:29 PMColdbrandU failed lol omg xD so randumQuote:
Originally Posted by Zyeriis
I'm glad you're not a game designer, and sorry you expect everything to go smoothly. A large part of the fun in earlier FF games is managing weakened party members and trying to stabilize mid fight via raise/phoenix down etc. Have you played them? I strongly doubt there weren't boss fights that didn't present this situation to you, unless you just grind out for hours before progressing in each title.
Here an example of this kind of gameplay being exciting in really oldschool FFXI as proof of concept that the afforementioned gameplay can exist in the XI environment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJQLCN_qqFY -
03-20-2011, 05:30 PMZyeriisHow many chances do you need? Dying has to mean something, that's why it's called dying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
That's what Reraise is, your second chance. You have to fail at some point, that's called experience. -
03-20-2011, 05:31 PMFlunklesnarkinIf you can't comprehend how this quote is related to the topic.. you are dumb.. FACTQuote:
Originally Posted by Zyeriis
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03-20-2011, 05:31 PMlowkeySneak/invisible are useful even in the presence of silent oils/prism powders. Fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
It's still your place to come prepared at all times, and failing to do so habitually, will cause people, especially mages to hate you, and eventually exclude you. Being prepared means oils, powders, rr items, whatever misc. medicines that may be required, getting cut scenes and other soloable stuff done on your own time, etc. No one wants to hold your hand. Fact. -
03-20-2011, 05:34 PMColdbrand
Agreed. Good thing Phoenix Downs would enhance your ability to prepare!
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03-20-2011, 05:35 PMKrashportHaving options. Fact. ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey
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03-20-2011, 05:36 PMZyeriisI have to call you an idiot again? Cause I will. You're the one who wants the phoenix downs to extend your ability to stay in the fight, to smooth out a process of never failing. Phoenix downs, in FFXI, wouldn't create the environment you are looking for as it already exists through reraise. It would only add an extra layer of not failing, which is dumb, the game is already lost a great deal of difficulty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
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03-20-2011, 05:38 PMColdbrand
So adding complexity is dumbing it down? Nice argument there champ. Did you know that as a result of adding in the oldschool stabilize via raise/reraise/phoenix down gameplay they could make newer fights designed with that functionality in mind harder? Ouch.
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03-20-2011, 05:40 PMFlunklesnarkinRedundancy =/= complexity .. FactQuote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
Failing to plan for reraise/healing is noobish.. Fact -
03-20-2011, 05:40 PMAlderin
Just make it a high level Alchemy craft that you cannot buy from NPC's. Requires Fire Crystal, Phoenix Feather, Black Ink and Bomb Ash. Make Phoenix Feathers drop off certain regular mobs in Abyssea, as Bomb Ash isn't the most common thing to come across - it would also increase the price of them a bit.
Make the materials for the synth reasonably difficult to obtain, keeping the prices on AH reasonably high, and people won't spam them - but will use them for emergencies. Stackable to 12, not 99.
As much as it would be nice to have stackable meds to 99, it would shoot Alchemists in the foot and reduce the value of items like Echo Drops and Holy Water far too much to be worth it. (Now that is a different topic that belongs on a different thread, but no meds should be stackable to 99. Including these Phoenix Downs.) -
03-20-2011, 05:44 PMColdbrandPhoenix Downs and Raise being in the same game isn't really redundant, unless you think every single other FF game ever made has redundant gameplay options. Trying to stabilize in an intense boss fight in those games was a very fine balance that some might consider complex especially considering the various status effects and conditions the enemies who usually put you in that spot can induce.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin
Also, weren't you the one crying when you thought I was making judgements about players skill levels earlier? And now you're saying that unless you have a WHM stapled to your side you're a "noob"? I'm not sure I follow. And if you're such a fan of preparation, let me tell you, phoenix downs have been an integral part of preparation in every other flagship title in the entire franchise, ask anyone who's actually played them and understands their inherent value which seems to be beyond you! -
03-20-2011, 05:46 PMZyeriisStating opinion as fact again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
You're not adding complexity, don't know where you got that silly idea. "Oh I can get up again, that's complex!" No, that's an easy button.
Battles where you have no choice but death and battles where you have the possibility to die are not one and the same. You can argue my point that dying is part of the game, in some pathetic attempt to counter this but, you'll have missed the difference. Difficulty should be in staying alive, with the already in place systems to back you up, should you die. Adding another one, is just putting a net under a net, that is under a net.
That "functionality" is a gimmick at best....Champ. -
03-20-2011, 05:51 PMZyeriisPlayed em all, there's only one that I didn't finish (single player ones anyway). Oh, and you're wrong (::shocked face::) There's another Final Fantasy game that does not have phoenix downs. It's also an online, multiplayer one as well. It's called Final Fantasy XIV. Sure, the game sucks but, you're still wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
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03-20-2011, 05:53 PMColdbrandIf you don't like how I state my opinions than don't read them. Add me to your ignore list, anyone who's played older FF games knows how difficult stabilizing a party is, and that's something only really possible on the same level when a tiny handful of caster jobs no longer have the monopoly on bringing people back up. Those fights added difficulty because it meant not being able to fight at anywhere near full capacity, restrictions are a form of difficulty, that's why places like Salvage exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyeriis
At this point your phobia of the addition of the item leads me to believe perhaps you're just a White Mage who fears any potential competition on the monopoly that is your necessary presence in all events. Dancers are healers, you can bring them and still not have what you need for certain lengthier battles since they can't raise. If the Chemist job which is possibly the most requested new job on these forums were added, they aren't magically inclined, yet are considered a healer, should every non magical job not be able to ressurect players? Phoenix Downs have existed and been loved since FF1, sorry you feel they shouldn't be included because you think reraise is the pinnacle of preparedness and that all difficulty is centered around being able to get up again a single time. -
03-20-2011, 06:01 PMAlderin
Not sure if you guys are forgetting the "Auto-Life" spell in various other FF's as well.
That is another form of Reraise.
So what's wrong with adding downs? I don't see any valid points to the arguments so far. Would also massively help those of us who still do the odd level-sync party where "Raise" isn't an option.
There are very little ways I believe that Phoenix Downs can be abused. Make the craft level high, not purchasable via an NPC and the materials required for the synth have to be farmed. This keeps the price high, so people won't just throw it on anyone they see that is dead.
Yes of course it is more ideal to have Reraise, and in a sense there aren't too many cases where you won't have it on. However if your out doing Abyssea things, lets say for example - you joined a shout PT for Raja (we all know how terrible they end up), your alliance procs red, 3/4 of the alliance is dead, and your lying on the ground waiting for the 4 mages that are still alive to run around and raise everyone while they have weakness timers?
Oh woops, Raja died and you didn't get his Atma because the mages were too busy raising everyone. Sob story, too bad... right?
Not with Phoenix Downs - The mages can raise one person, that one person can run around and get someone else with a Phoenix Down, that next person can go grab another person... Etc.
Is that truly abusing the system? I see Phoenix Downs would have their place. -
03-20-2011, 06:03 PMZyeriisThat post is so full of wrong it's making my eyes bleed. I have no mage jobs, at all, closest thing is Paladin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
And yes, you are basically trying to push all healing mages out of events with this. Great, more useless jobs. Great idea.
Mages have been a staple of every final fantasy game as well (in fact more if you read my other post that points out that there's another final fantasy game that doesn't have phoenix downs).
You seem to forget that you aren't adding restrictions, you want to lift them by adding another safety net. If you do not understand this, I will re-iterate the fact that you're an idiot. Also, none of the primary ideas of the OP were about larger scale events, they were about smaller parties. My counter arguments were about the exploitation of said item in those larger events.
Back to the original topic of having phoenix downs for teams as small as 2. Bring RR and one of you have Raise. If you cannot accomplish this and still win, you need more people (heaven forbid). Again, I see absolutely no reason for this stupid easy button/final layer of netting being added. -
03-20-2011, 06:03 PMColdbrand
God forbid they ever tweak the AI to specifically hunt healers for certain more cunning monsters who can play around enmity properties.
Edit:Here's a conundrum for you, phoenix downs don't eliminate the need for the healer role in the games that have them, and unless you can prove me wrong, they wouldn't in this one either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyeriis
Also, I love how you think Phoenix Downs would suddenly make the game "stupid easy". Care to illustrate your point further? Let's say you had Phoenix Downs to face Absolute Virtue back during the 75 cap. Tell me how their implementation would make it so you'd beat him. Let's go with rare/ex ones for this mental exercise. -
03-20-2011, 06:04 PMZyeriisHave to fail at some point. No point in playing something you always win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alderin
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03-20-2011, 06:06 PMFlunklesnarkinCan't tweak the AI.. it would anger the unicorn prince.. FactQuote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
Also something about enmity.. [I don't speak english].. Fact -
03-20-2011, 06:11 PMAlderinThis game can't be won - cause there is no ending. Phoenix Downs would not gimp the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyeriis
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03-20-2011, 06:14 PMTsukino_KajiNo. But you can do everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alderin
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03-20-2011, 06:16 PMColdbrand
Not humanly possible. Unless you're aware of a player with each relic mythic and empyrean.
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03-20-2011, 06:18 PMZyeriis...what the hell are you talking about? Win, as in events/battles? I did not say the words "complete the game". I'm really lost as to what you are talking about. If you won the game...then there also would be no point in continuing to play? ::baffled face:: *scratches head* Phoenix downs would remove the ability to fail (a battlefield, a fight against a NM, etc.). If they were expensive, then they wouldn't serve much use especially not the use the OP wanted. No point in adding something essentially useless to the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alderin
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03-20-2011, 06:18 PMTsukino_KajiThey will exist soon enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
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03-20-2011, 06:20 PMColdbrandStrongly doubtful, even if relics become easy enough to obtain that someone might accumulate each of them, the mythics are still incredibly, incredibly time consuming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji
Phoenix downs do NOT remove the ability to fail, especially in the event that they were rare/ex. Oh and here's an idea, most really good items already put you on a cooldown for their usage, heaven forbid SE did that for them too, you know, kind of like my original post which stated that SE should work out the details in that regard?
If they remove the ability to fail, please, complete my mental exercise I presented for you and demonstrate how they'd present the ability to defeat Absolute Virtue during the 75 cap era. -
03-20-2011, 06:22 PMZyeriisIn the end, you still want an extra life. That doesn't change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
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03-20-2011, 06:23 PMTsukino_KajiI think the replacement is needed already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyeriis
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03-20-2011, 06:25 PMColdbrandMy Spider-Sense is tingling! It tells me...that's the whole point of this thread!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyeriis
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03-20-2011, 06:28 PMZyeriis
Actually let me rephrase before I go to sleep.
Doing it that way, would completely nullify your argument regarding adding "complexity" to the game and making new "harder" enemies with it, wouldn't be possible. You are changing your stance on the matter to avoid being wrong (and it going to fail either way0. If they were expensive, then they would not serve the very purpose you want to adamantly defend: using them a lot in battle. Which as you said, is a staple of all the single player final fantasy games. Making them rare/ex also nullifies this staple and your argument. If they were cheap, and non rare-ex they would be overpowered and stupid. If they were cheap and rare/ex, they'd still only be one use things, which is different from what you were arguing. If they were expensive and non rare/ex, they would still be overpowered but they would only be usable by people who are already decked out, making them relatively useless.
Anyway, going to sleep, it's 5:30 am....sun's gonna be up soon... -
03-20-2011, 06:33 PMColdbrand
How does having them be rare/ex nullify their staple status? As soon as they appear in the game that condition has been met.
I'm not moving any goalposts. I want them in. I want alternatives to casters with raise. I want stabilizing wars mid-boss fight like in all the other games in the franchise. I've been against them being stackable to 99 which you put in my mouth in the first place.
Haven't changed on any of these stances.
Sorry you haven't played the other FF games, but as anyone who has can attest, a lot of those boss fights were WAY more intense than your average NM or even CS boss fight, and one excuse to present harder fights would be making it so that you could get up the healer once per battle and thus not be dead the second they go down. There's no need for quotations about any of those concepts which are hardly theoretical since they exist in the rest of the franchise and have done so for more than a decade.
Their being expensive is someone else's argument, which I am against. That'd make them pointless like the majority of the other items alchemist produce simply from the standpoint that they're too costly to be used regularly.
Anyhow, I'm not too concerned since SE seems to be on my side of things as is evidenced by almost all new content providing players with temp. items freely which make the game function more like a traditional FF. (Besieged, Campaign, Abyssea) -
03-21-2011, 01:59 AMZyeriists;dr (like tl;dr but worse)Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand